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[FrankWisdom]

Perhaps a water theme , Mythal is supposed to come from the sea or something in Dalish tales , although I suspect it's a metaphor perhaps for the Fade?

 

Some DAI codex , chantry related :

 

Spoiler

 

Here lies the abyss, the well of all souls.
From these emerald waters doth life begin anew.
Come to me, child, and I shall embrace you.
In my arms lies Eternity.

—Canticle of Andraste, 14:11

Chantry sisters have long since debated this section of the Chant of Light. It is tempting to assume that the "well of all souls" is a literal well, but such imagery appears nowhere in Andraste's other works. An examination from Threnodies 1:4 yields clues:

From the waters of the Fade you made the world. As the Fade had been fluid, so was the world fixed.

It is possible—even likely—that the "emerald waters" Andraste refers to are the substance of the Fade, which began as an "ocean of dreams" (Threnodies 1:1) and was reduced to a well—bottomless but limited in scope—by the Maker's creation of our world.

Is Andraste urging the listener to come to the Fade? Should we take "From these emerald waters doth life begin anew," as literal evidence of reincarnation—or even of life after death, as the Cult of Spirits suggests—or as a figurative benediction indicating that the Maker is the source of all life, and in finding His embrace for Eternity, we will only be returning our souls from whence they came?

—An excerpt from Reflections on Divinity, by Revered Mother Juliette

 

 

Perhaps the yellow ball is the power of the Earth ,and the blue ball is the power of the Fade...yeah I know sounds dumb.

But perhaps the second painting is elves building part of the Crossroad.It seems the place was made of the Fade and the material world.And they are both in front of an Eluvian.

Doesn't sound dumb, or then I also sound dumb 'cause that's what I speculated as well.

[FrankWisdom]

Mythal could have come from the fade, I agree with you. That would mean Elgar'nan wasn't a part of the fade at the point she met him. Supposedly he was created when the sun and land met; that could be metaphoric for him becoming flesh from spirit, or sentient. The question is what the sun, land and sea represents. I'm guessing: sea is the fade, land is the earth, sun is = something inside the fade (mosaic), of which the moon is supposed to reflect? The way they work together would answer some questions.

 

That canticle has me wondering whether it was really the Maker talking to Andraste. I don't know about him; Solas does say he's "open to new ideas" regarding the Maker, so apparently the idea didn't exist in Arlathan at least.

 

 

Or he doesn't see whatever is "imprisoned" a.k.a. The sun the same way that the maker is represented within Chantry teachings. Whatever it is or was, we know that dalish tales hold a grain o truth that just has to be taken with a lump of salt... I like your catch about the vallaslin depictions though. the bubbles that surround the elvhen from which Fen'Harel is removing the vallaslin seem to indicate they are perhaps, somehow bound or impeded by them in some way.

[FrankWisdom]

I was reading Bestiary section of WoT2 and description of Gibbering Horror (p. 298) stood out. 

 

 

I don't know how relevant this really is, but these monsters, who just recently gained a physical form, could be a prove that there is something strange going on behind the Veil. 

I don't know why, but I've just experienced deja-vu reading your post... weird.

 

Anyways, speaking of weird, there is always something weird going on behind the veil, it's called The Fade

 

The veil essentially cutting off the world from The Fade makes everyone blind to what is truly happening there, unlike a time pre-veil, where things were at least coexisting in relative balance.

 

Also it did say

 

"I feel they have existed for some time, and that some unknown current of magic has revived them. Either way, beware. They bite."

 

I wonder what exactly the source would've been. If they are ancient and something revived them, then it seems logical that whatever revived them is also ancient. Whether it is the progenitor or simply something that was around while they were active is the real question.

 

Is it something like a demon, akin to the nightmare demon and the fearlings, or is it something else, like The Evanuris (perhaps biding their time and gaining power in their prisons) or perhaps. The Forgotten Ones?

 

Thanks for bringing that up Lilaih. Interesting stuff. I'm only at page 159 of WoT Vol. 2 but I checked pg. 298 out, creepy things those "Gibbering Horrors".

 

Its many black, beady eyes are also reminiscent of the spider "fearling" eyes.

[jthibeault]

I keep thinking about what it would have been like without the veil and all my brain keeps focusing on is that early conversation with Solas where he says something like "Imagine if spirits were as natural as the weather."

Fred: Morning Bob!
Bob: *disgusted noise*
Fred: What's wrong?
Bob: Look at this! 90% chance of wisps again today! AGAIN! I had plans dammit.


Also I know we talked about how all Elves must have been able to do magic/were mages before the veil and then I saw this comic about Solas tearing down the veil and I laaaauuughed and laughed and I really can't stop laughing.

http://anotheramazed...il-elves-across

[FrankWisdom]

What do people think of green lyrium? Saw some in the Darvaarad along with other magical artifacts.

That's actually veil quartz... A side-effect of the rift energy influencing the geology surrounding it...

[FrankWisdom]

I imagine the moon might be a metaphor for the Golden City.

Yeah I know I'm pulling this one from nowhere   , but we had the Sun which seems to be a natural part of the world , something powerful.

In the Dalish tale (and let's face it , part of it is probably very wrong but that's all we have for the birth of the elven people/civilization), the only thing created is the moon by Mythal.

You can say the Golden City is a pale imitation of the Sun , yes it's shiny ... in the fade it's always there ,just like the Sun was supposed to be always there before Elgar'nan threw him into the abyss.

 

I said this earlier but there is a raw fade , all dark rock , lyrium veins (I imagine Titans/earth ) and it's always night and there is just a ribbon of light left , and the Golden CIty now Black also always there.

It could be something that did happen because in ..I can't remember in which DA book I read that , but anyway it is written in theory you could find in the Fade , the origins of the world .

And that dark vision in the raw Fade , or memory ..well it sounds like what happened with Elgar'nan and Mythal , in the tales all went dark."With the sun gone, the world was covered in shadow, and all that remained in the sky were the reminders of Elgar'nan's battle with his father—drops of the sun's lifeblood, which twinkled and shimmered in the darkness"

So did the Elves created the Golden City as a pale imitation , if the city was golden in the raw fade perhaps things would look better?

/Head desk.

 

There is potential credence for this theory, I also have thought about it.

 

The reason she created the "moon" however might not have been as "PG" as is depicted in the Dalish legends. It could have been made to hold back the blight, perhaps an unintended side-effect from with the absence of the "sun" which gave it room to develop (or re-purposed for this reason, having been a temple dedicated to the "event" first. By event I mean Elgar'nan "beating" the "sun" into submission).

 

"drops of the sun's lifeblood, which twinkled and shimmered in the darkness". This quote seems to indicate the stars, but life blood is an interesting definition to describe them. Much like blood magic and now lyrium being Titan's blood. It all seems to be connected in terms of a magic booster. Using the "sun's" lifeblood to create the "Golden City" makes sense. The "blood" could've helped boost Mythal's powers which would explain her capacity to create such a structure in The Fade, the same way lyrium boosts magical abilities (as we know it takes 1000's of "servants" to maintain and create a "pocket-dimension" as well as the temple lying within pre-veil i.e. as described in the "Raising the Sonallium" Codex).

 

Again, the question is whether she would've built it specifically to honor the sun (i.e. functioning as a temple) and then used it in desperation as a prison (to hold in the "blight/taint") or if its intended purpose was always as a prison built because of the consequences of defeating the "sun".

 

Edit: also the quote "drops of the sun's lifeblood, which twinkled and shimmered in the darkness"

 

reminds me of this codex

 

Spoiler

 

"She took the radiance of the stars, divided them into grains of light, then stored them in a shaft of gold."

 

"Andruil, Blood and Force, save us from the time this weapon is thrown."

 

interesting parallels in my opinion

 

The spear with a shaft of gold is also described at the end of the codex as

 

"glowing with unbearable heat"

 

shaft of gold, a golden city, extreme power from, blood, light and heat. They all are recurring themes, same as darkness and the blight.

 

 

Spoiler

 

"The slaves have disappeared" (blood sacrifice). "Light radiates from the eidolon's narrowed eyes."

 

Spoiler

 

"...Immensely graceful vine that flowers with the heat of a copper sunset"

 

I could add more but I think I've made my point. Anyways we just have to keep an eye out for more of these similarities found in all the different codices and sources we happen upon, which will help us puzzle together a more concrete image of what was actually going on pre-veil.
 

[Shari'El]

There is potential credence for this theory, I also have thought about it.

 

The reason she created the "moon" however might not have been as "PG" as is depicted in the Dalish legends. It could have been made to hold back the blight, perhaps an unintended side-effect from with the absence of the "sun" which gave it room to develop (or re-purposed for this reason, having been a temple dedicated to the "event" first. By event I mean Elgar'nan "beating" the "sun" into submission).

 

"drops of the sun's lifeblood, which twinkled and shimmered in the darkness". This quote seems to indicate the stars, but life blood is an interesting definition to describe them. Much like blood magic and now lyrium being Titan's blood. It all seems to be connected in terms of a magic booster. Using the "sun's" lifeblood to create the "Golden City" makes sense. The "blood" could've helped boost Mythal's powers which would explain her capacity to create such a structure in The Fade, the same way lyrium boosts magical abilities (as we know it takes 1000's of "servants" to maintain and create a "pocket-dimension" as well as the temple lying within pre-veil i.e. as described in the "Raising the Sonallium" Codex).

 

Again, the question is whether she would've built it specifically to honor the sun (i.e. functioning as a temple) and then used it in desperation as a prison (to hold in the "blight/taint") or if its intended purpose was always as a prison built because of the consequences of defeating the "sun".

 

If you had to guess, how would you tell the stories about the birthing of Elgar'nan and Mythal as well as the stories of how Elgar'nan cast his father to the abyss and Mythal created the moon in real life events?

Because I disregard these stories as stories told to the common people to make the Evanuris seem like actual gods (special birth circumstances, tales of unfathomable powers), a la Norse/Greek mythology sort of tales. I rarely dig into these stories since I can't make sense of them.

[azarhal]

 

That canticle has me wondering whether it was really the Maker talking to Andraste. I don't know about him; Solas does say he's "open to new ideas" regarding the Maker, so apparently the idea didn't exist in Arlathan at least.

 

The Ancient Elves could have given a name and worshiped a creator god pre-Enuvaris who was erased from their collective memory once said Enuvaris claimed their godhood (Mythal especially seems to have loved making people forget...).  They didn't necessarily call him The Maker too, similar to how we use the Tevinter names for the Old Gods (a Corypheus' comment), which means they are known under different names somewhere in Thedas...

 

 

I don't know how relevant this really is, but these monsters, who just recently gained a physical form, could be a prove that there is something strange going on behind the Veil. 

 

I really suspect that Solas's plan is going to be a catastrophic mess and not because of what he is planning, but because the current state of the world and Veil is not what he believes it is.

 

In pre-DAI games and books, there are codices and events that talks about things that now appear to be possible because of a general weakening of the Veil: increase in the number of mages, new dreamers being born (wouldn't surprise me if Avexis in Dawn of the Seeker was an abnormality too), new monsters taking shapes, spirits taking physical shapes. Maybe even Red Lyrium considering nobody have seen it before despite the Blight being a thing for like 1000 years.

 

I think there is another party (not Mythal or Solas) actively working in destroying/removing the Veil and someone working on keeping it there (or at least minimizing the damage, unless it is luck The Maker).

 

We actually do know a group of people who wish to remove the Veil to destroy the world and get a new paradise out of it: The Order of Fiery Promise. They claim the Seekers stole their mandate and stopped them from doing it. The Promisers always return once wiped, which suggest a very long lived group/entity is controlling them. What if the Promisers are still at it?

 

Solas might be in it for a surprise in the next game...and I'm not talking about people trying to stop him.

[FrankWisdom]

I keep thinking about what it would have been like without the veil and all my brain keeps focusing on is that early conversation with Solas where he says something like "Imagine if spirits were as natural as the weather."

Fred: Morning Bob!
Bob: *disgusted noise*
Fred: What's wrong?
Bob: Look at this! 90% chance of wisps again today! AGAIN! I had plans dammit.


Also I know we talked about how all Elves must have been able to do magic/were mages before the veil and then I saw this comic about Solas tearing down the veil and I laaaauuughed and laughed and I really can't stop laughing.

http://anotheramazed...il-elves-across

 

The quote is actually

 

"Imagine if spirits entered freely. The fade was not a place one went, but a state of nature like the wind".

 

Solas was just trying to explain The Fade to someone who had no real notion of what it was like to interact with it in a "physical" capacity. Spirits entering freely also highlights the ease in which one could "traverse" either realm, where physical and spiritual interacted in a symbiotic fashion and maintained a balanced relationship. Therefore The Fade was not a "place" but a "state" it was always present, which is why it is an integral part of the world, we influence it the same way as it influences us. Cole explains it quite well and demonstrates how mortals are as much a part of it as spirits. It is also what makes Solas' plans so "necessary" (purely from a philosophical stand-point, as we don't know about other "concrete" reasons behind his actions") yet at the same time so horrible (because it will effectively kill every being that still contribute to The Fade's nature, even if it is on a subconscious level i.e. through dreams rather than consciously being aware of it).

 

Though your comparison did make me laugh so kudos for that

[FrankWisdom]

If you had to guess, how would you tell the stories about the birthing of Elgar'nan and Mythal as well as the stories of how Elgar'nan cast his father to the abyss and Mythal created the moon in real life events?

Because I disregard these stories as stories told to the common people to make the Evanuris seem like actual gods (special birth circumstances, tales of unfathomable powers), a la Norse/Greek mythology sort of tales. I rarely dig into these stories since I can't make sense of them.

 

I don't lend credence to the specifics. Birthing and creating are concepts which would've been alien to us. pre-veil is a place where spirit and physical were part of the same coin. interchangeable states rather than two separate conditions i.e. abstract vs. concrete.

 

That makes the creationism tales simply a way in which the "people" learned to understand something they couldn't comprehend because it required actually experiencing what "existence" was like at that time.

 

Like what Solas says to your inquisitor about being able to find common ground with demons post-veil.

 

Inquisitor: "is there a way to coexist? To live with them, if not in peace, at least without such active confrontation?"

 

Solas: "Not in the world we know today. The veil creates a barrier that makes true understanding most unlikely."

 

Therefore it's hard to ascribe any "logical" descriptions to such "vague" and "simplistic" analogies.

 

The way I've explained it in recent posts is as far as I can reach given the information we have at our disposal.

 

The only way to push further is establish similarities and connections with other tales and "sensible" information we find that have similar themes which generate positive and consistent correlation. Whether that information comes from the different religions and histories of mortals in Thedas or Elvhen history pre-veil is relative, as long as we spot the consistencies found within each aspect.

[jthibeault]

The quote is actually

 

"Imagine if spirits entered freely. The fade was not a place one went, but a state of nature like the wind".

 

Solas was just trying to explain The Fade to someone who had no real notion of what it was like to interact with it in a "physical" capacity. Spirits entering freely also highlights the ease in which one could "traverse" either realm, where physical and spiritual interacted in a symbiotic fashion and maintained a balanced relationship. Therefore The Fade was not a "place" but a "state" it was always present, which is why it is an integral part of the world, we influence it the same way as it influences us. Cole explains it quite well and demonstrates how mortals are as much a part of it as spirits. It is also what makes Solas' plans so "necessary" (purely from a philosophical stand-point, as we don't know about other "concrete" reasons behind his actions") yet at the same time so horrible (because it will effectively kill every being that still contribute to The Fade's nature, even if it is on a subconscious level i.e. through dreams rather than consciously being aware of it).

 

Though your comparison did made me laugh so kudos for that

Ah! Yes that was the quote, I knew I hadn't gotten it right. The very first time I played the game I just had that image of Fade/spirits/weather stuck in my head and it won't leave

[FernRain]

A question: if "Mythal speaks the calling", what implications does that have? Assuming the reversed well messages are true.

 

Kieran said he had to go to her because she "called him". Maybe the dark ritual called to Urthemiel thanks to Mythal.

 

But yeah, implications? The calling by Mythal? ..

[FrankWisdom]

A question: if "Mythal speaks the calling", what implications does that have? Assuming the reversed well messages are true.

 

Kieran said he had to go to her because she "called him". Maybe the dark ritual called to Urthemiel thanks to Mythal.

 

But yeah, implications? The calling by Mythal? ..

 

Good question. I don't buy into the "reversed" well of sorrows thing. It is so obscure and unclear that it's hard to attribute any credence to it (as of yet). Maybe if other information can be connected to it, but for now I don't see anything concrete about it.

 

As for Kieran and Mythal, well that's a question I've had since he said that she "called" and he "had" to go.

 

Spoiler

 

The only thing we can say for sure about this information is that there is definitely a link between the Evanuris and the Old Gods, though in what capacity is the only question I find relevant here...

[FernRain]

I'm not into reversed messaging either, impossible to be sure what's being said. Still, "I am empty, filled with nothing. Mythal gives you dreams".. I'm gonna look into the elven because apparently the writer was unsure on the first line.

 

Edit: it's as though it's saying "I am un-whole". Was kinda hoping for a blight reference, meh.

 

There's a song in WoT:2 called "Mir Da'len somniar" that's about dreaming and following a voice.

[FrankWisdom]

I'm not into reversed messaging either, impossible to be sure what's being said. Still, "I am empty, filled with nothing. Mythal gives you dreams".. I'm gonna look into the elven because apparently the writer was unsure on the first line.

 

Edit: it's as though it's saying "I am un-whole". Was kinda hoping for a blight reference, meh.

 

There's a song in WoT:2 called "Mir Da'len somniar" that's about dreaming and following a voice.

 

Let me know what page in WoT Vol. 2 so I can check it out.

[Reznore57]

I'm not into reversed messaging either, impossible to be sure what's being said. Still, "I am empty, filled with nothing. Mythal gives you dreams".. I'm gonna look into the elven because apparently the writer was unsure on the first line.

 

Edit: it's as though it's saying "I am un-whole". Was kinda hoping for a blight reference, meh.

 

There's a song in WoT:2 called "Mir Da'len somniar" that's about dreaming and following a voice.

 

I am "un whole" would go with Valta suddenly feeling whole when she bonded with a Titan.

I imagine whatever the elves did down there , it disturbed the dwarves .

 

The thing I'm scratching my head about , is how Mythal would give dreams to dwarves ?We know current dwarves don't dream and have no access to the fade.(though if Titans did have access to the fade , dwarves would have too by proxy I imagine.)

[FrankWisdom]

I am "un whole" would go with Valta suddenly feeling whole when she bonded with a Titan.

I imagine whatever the elves did down there , it disturbed the dwarves .

 

The thing I'm scratching my head about , is how Mythal would give dreams to dwarves ?We know current dwarves don't dream and have no access to the fade.(though if Titans did have access to the fade , dwarves would have too by proxy I imagine.)

 

Dwarves don't dream because they don't sleep when connected to Titans, as Valta says once she's connected to her Titan. Also, if the veil is what caused the Titans to fall asleep and the breach is what "disturbed" the Titan we explore in "The Descent" then it's not a stretch to think there is a link between the Titans and The Fade.  Given there is lyrium found in The Fade and knowing that in the pre-veil era The Fade was a state of "nature" like "the wind" rather than a "place" then clearly all beings were connected to it in some way. I already explained my thoughts on it above and in my OP so I won't linger on the subject. Though given the whispers written in red lyrium, perhaps Titans did dream, though we still can't be sure whether the whispers come from the taint within the lyrium or the lyrium itself i.e. is it truly the whispers of a corrupted Titan or is it the corruption itself or whatever caused it in the first place communicating through the lyrium. "We have found the dreams again" is relative to that discrepancy.

 

To answer how Mythal gave Dwarves "dreams", like I theorized in past posts, the most likely explanation is the severed connection caused by Mythal "striking down" the Titan. The lack of direction would leave the Dwarves vulnerable and Mythal probably took advantage of that absence by using magic to create something else within them. Something that perhaps helped her gain control of them.

 

As for being un-whole, well put it in context. First it's supposition i.e. it's something someone thinks they heard. Secondly, it's being said by the collective knowledge of Ancient Elvhen priests of Mythal, which has no bearing on Dwarves. What Valta says has nothing to do with what is said by the whispers heard in the well if we put it into context, so in my opinion, linking the two is more than a stretch, it's not even relevant at this point.

[Reznore57]

 

As for being un-whole, well put it in context. First it's supposition i.e. it's something someone thinks they heard. Secondly, it's being said by the collective knowledge of Ancient Elvhen priests of Mythal, which has no bearing on Dwarves. What Valta says has nothing to do with what is said by the whispers heard in the well if we put it into context, so in my opinion, linking the two is more than a stretch, it's not even relevant at this point.

 

The "un whole" doesn't have anything to do with the Well?

It's from the codex in Trespasser Deep Roads , although we do not know if it was dwarves or elves being un whole and filled with nothing.

I wasn't even thinking about the Well of Sorrows , and its whispers .One of the phrase is "She speaks the truth" which is what the Inquisitot hears later in the Fade when meeting Flemeth "They say you speak the truth".

So I'm not paying too much attention to what the Inqui can hear when he drinks , because well the well would be a broken record."She speaks the truth blablablab" .Yeah sure interesting , no one cares right now.

[FrankWisdom]

The "un whole" doesn't have anything to do with the Well?

It's from the codex in Trespasser Deep Roads , although we do not know if it was dwarves or elves being un whole and filled with nothing.

I wasn't even thinking about the Well of Sorrows , and its whispers .One of the phrase is "She speaks the truth" which is what the Inquisitot hears later in the Fade when meeting Flemeth "They say you speak the truth".

So I'm not paying too much attention to what the Inqui can hear when he drinks , because well the well would be a broken record."She speaks the truth blablablab" .Yeah sure interesting , no one cares right now.

Ok, because you were responding to Fernrain, who was saying she thought she was hearing un-whole when listening to the Reverse well of sorrow video.

 

That's why I figured you were referencing what you quoted... I hope you understand my confusion.

 

As for the trespasser codex, it doesn't actually have un-whole in it, it just says "I am empty, filled with nothing".

 

Spoiler

[Fisva]

I know that yet again I post my thoughts as off-topic, but this whole talking about the calling (I know I perhaps repeat myself, haha), made me actually think about what both Solas and Abelas have said - that Mythal was slain, and yet we all know that Mythal lives "in" Flemeth, so that Mythal must have been having the same ability as the Old Gods or Corypheus - that her soul had to find a new body which served as a vessel, and which, perhaps, had to be tainted to be capable of moving from one body to another. Also, both Mythal and the Old Gods can be the source of the calling. Mythal/Flemeth is also portrayed as a dragon, and we all know that Tevinter Old Gods are dragons (and who, according to the Chantry (I think), could be real people). Aaand we have Qunari, dragon-blood people.

I apologise for putting here my primitive theories, but each post adds something to my Tevinter-Blight-Elves theory...

[FrankWisdom]

I know that yet again I post my thoughts as off-topic, but this whole talking about the calling (I know I perhaps repeat myself, haha), made me actually think about what both Solas and Abelas have said - that Mythal was slain, and yet we all know that Mythal lives "in" Flemeth, so that Mythal must have been having the same ability as the Old Gods or Corypheus - that her soul had to find a new body which served as a vessel, and which, perhaps, had to be tainted to be capable of moving from one body to another. Also, both Mythal and the Old Gods can be the source of the calling. Mythal/Flemeth is also portrayed as a dragon, and we all know that Tevinter Old Gods are dragons (and who, according to the Chantry (I think), could be real people). Aaand we have Qunari, dragon-blood people.

I apologise for putting here my primitive theories, but each post adds something to my Tevinter-Blight-Elves theory...

 

I don't think so. It seems to be inherent to spirits i.e. They are never truly "killed". They reform as "new beings" from wisps of what they were.

 

The Avvar runes etched by the Augur in the Frostback basin detail this well. It is also explained in less detail through the wisp codex. The fact that Flemeth specifically uses the term "wisp" to describe Mythal when she came to her seems to imply that she survived in the same fashion as spirits do when they are "killed" and sent back to the Fade post-veil. We also have no clue how this worked pre-veil, especially when talking about beings as powerful as The Evanuris or Elvhen people in general, who are essentially spirits who can learn and adapt, much like Cole if you make him more human. 

 

Also dragons are inherently resistant to the blight, which I believe indicates they either had to fight it off before and developed a physiological resistance to it or the blight is directly of an opposite nature. Either way the "taint" is unnatural and I believe it to be a "soul" sickness, attacking and corrupting the spirit. I believe it became a physical "blight" once the Magisters breached the Golden City "physically" and then "fell" back to Thedas, carrying the taint as "hosts" would a "parasite".

 

If the "taint" was first a "spiritual" sickness, then perhaps its propensity to keep its host's "spirit" alive after a physical body is destroyed stems from that fact. the taint itself might even enhance that part of a spirit's nature, which is why only powerful beings have that capacity (such as Corypheus and Archdemons, both beings who have exceptionally powerful "spirits" or "souls" for lack of a better term).

[jthibeault]

Dwarves don't dream because they don't sleep when connected to Titans, as Valta says once she's connected to her Titan.

 

Forgive me, I'm a little confused about this part with the dwarves. In their modern day form dwarves sleep but they don't dream and are not connected to a titan like Valta becomes. Or are you saying that their ... "residual" for lack of a better word ... connection to titans is what makes them not dream?

[FernRain]

Ok, because you were responding to Fernrain, who was saying she thought she was hearing un-whole when listening to the Reverse well of sorrow video.

 

That's why I figured you were referencing what you quoted... I hope you understand my confusion.

 

As for the trespasser codex, it doesn't actually have un-whole in it, it just says "I am empty, filled with nothing".

 

Whops sorry, didn't mean to confuse. I was saying the "un-whole" was a more comfortable translation than "I am empty, filled with nothing". I didn't mean to imply that's what the well said, sorry!

 

About the translation it says: Ir sa tel'nal.

 

Ir = I am

sa = one

tel'nal = tel is a negator when used after a verb or noun (in this case sa). Banal means nothing.

 

So it's literally "I am the opposite of one" or "I am not one", hence my conclusion to simplify it from oneness to unwhole.

[FrankWisdom]

Forgive me, I'm a little confused about this part with the dwarves. In their modern day form dwarves sleep but they don't dream and are not connected to a titan like Valta becomes. Or are you saying that their ... "residual" for lack of a better word ... connection to titans is what makes them not dream?

 

"residual" for lack of a better word ... connection to titans is what makes them not dream?

 

This is what I meant.

 

when I said "Dwarves don't dream because they don't sleep when connected to Titans, as Valta says once she's connected to her Titan."

 

I meant that because they never slept (as proven when Valta reestablishes her connection to a Titan and writes about it in her journal) then they had no "inherent" connection to The Fade like other races. Not only are they products of "the unchanging world" like Titans but their connection to Titans also limited their exposure to The Fade. This is why (in my opinion) The Elvhen People didn't consider them as "people", i.e. "Their workers scurry, witless, soulless. This death will be a mercy".

 

Because of their "intended" purpose and nature i.e. workers created for and by Titans, even when they sleep (I believe their connection to the Titans is what maintained them i.e. they didn't need to sleep, eat, rest etc. making them effectively immortal, but without that connection they essentially became mortal, much like the Elvhen people did due to the veil), Dwarves have no "unconscious" connection to The Fade. Since we know that the unconscious connection is caused by the veil and is maintained because there used to be a conscious connection to The Fade, then we can also deduce that this is one of the reasons it had no effect on the Dwarves (as they lacked the connection to begin with).

 

Ironically, even if the Dwarves' connection with the Titans meant they had no connection to The Fade, the veil still ended up having similar effects on both races (even if it indirectly affected the Dwarves). It's also interesting to note the similarities between the Dwarves' connection to Titans and the Elvhen people's connection to The Fade. The only difference (albeit a major one) is the symbiotic relationship the Dwarves share with Titans (psychological i.e. the "hive mind" more so than the physical apsects).

 

My question is whether the Titans actually needed to sleep. We know they had a connection to The Fade, but in what capacity exactly?

 

My theory is that they maintained balance, reinforcing reality, both shaping  and reshaping the earth when The Fade was used by the Elvhen people to magically "change" the unchanging world. I'm guessing when they abused their magical capacities the Titans would get involved. I'm also guessing this is when the Evanuris and Elvhen people first became aware of Titans (earthquakes are hard to ignore) and eventually the properties of their blood (when they struck down their first Titan). I also believe The Fade is what gave Titans "consciousness" and purpose.

 

When the veil was created however, that purpose as well as their "will" was cutoff like a thread. This is why I think they "fell asleep" and no longer "move around" to "reshape the earth" (No Fade to "change" the "unchanging world thanks to the veil). I'm guessing it's also why they haven't created any "new" Dwarves (either because The Fade is what allowed them to do so or because they are "asleep").

[jthibeault]

Thanks! That cleared up my confusion.