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[FrankWisdom]

I find the second line much more interesting: "Bring faith. Bring hope. Bring a dream of life."  The ardent blossom are plant kept alive via lyrium. 

 

I'm starting to think there is a link between Faith, lyrium and life. That would explain why Cassandra can set it aflame in people's blood.

I don't think the quote had anything to do with the Ardent Blossoms or lyrium though, even if it was said in the "quest". The context is within the subject, in this case, Solas and his plans.

 

Remember, Cassandra specifically says that all Seekers can have "different" powers once touched with a faith spirit (apart from the general benefits i.e. immunity to possession and mind control), and that her powers specifically are being able to set lyrium aflame in a person's blood. She also implies other seekers have this power but not all are given the same "gifts"

 

Cassandra: "We cannot be possessed by demons and are immune to mind control, useful, considering our role. Seekers can gain other gifts,  though that depends on the individual."

 

Inquisitor: What kind of "gifts" do you have?

 

Cassandra: "I can set the lyrium within a person's blood aflame. Both mages and Templars bend before my will. Some seekers use it to interrogate, others simply to paralyze.

[azarhal]

I don't think the quote had anything to do with the Ardent Blossoms or lyrium though, even if it was said in the "quest". The context is within the subject, in this case, Solas and his plans.

 

Remember, Cassandra specifically says that all Seekers can have "different" powers once touched with a faith spirit (apart from the general benefits i.e. immunity to possession and mind control), and that her powers specifically are being able to set lyrium aflame in a person's blood. She also implies other seekers have this power but not all are given the same "gifts"

 

Cassandra: "We cannot be possessed by demons and are immune to mind control, useful, considering our role. Seekers can gain other gifts,  though that depends on the individual."

 

Inquisitor: What kind of "gifts" do you have?

 

Cassandra: "I can set the lyrium within a person's blood aflame. Both mages and Templars bend before my will. Some seekers use it to interrogate, others simply to paralyze.

 

I was more pointing out that lyrium can keep plants alive as shown by the ardent blossom crown and that the quote is talking about bringing Faith and Hope to bring a dream of life.  So lyrium keep certain things alive and Faith/Hope are tied to a "dream of life".

 

The Seeker comment was more about trying to find the link between the Seeker's power and Faith which allows them to negate magic like Templars do via lyrium.

[FrankWisdom]

I was more pointing out that lyrium can keep plants alive as shown by the ardent blossom crown and that the quote is talking about bringing Faith and Hope to bring a dream of life.  So lyrium keep certain things alive and Faith/Hope are tied to a "dream of life".

 

The Seeker comment was more about trying to find the link between the Seeker's power and Faith which allows them to negate magic like Templars do via lyrium.

 

Ok, sorry for the confusion. That is an interesting link.

 

Titan's blood being able to keep the "physical" alive (them being primordial entities, both keepers and caretakers of the "unchanging world") makes sense.

 

While faith and hope could be the "spiritual" equivalent.

 

as for the lyrium part, perhaps that is why darkspawn are wary of the Wellspring. Not just because of the Titan's song, but also because of the fact that the blood itself (when circulating within a Titan, where it is most powerful) is an "agent" of life thus making it a deterrent to the "taint" which is an "agent" of death.

 

Given blood magic also apparently can be used to halt the taint's corruption, I assume it has to do with it not only being magic that "reinforces reality" so to speak (meaning it is primordial magic or "the unchaniging world" magic in contrast to "Fade magic"). That would also help explain the fact that the "taint" attacks the "spirit" or the "soul", and the corruption stems from there. Since blood magic weakens the connection beings have with The Fade, then it would explain why it is effective against the "taint" and "blight magic".

[azarhal]

Crazy thoughts, what if Spirit of Faiths were the Titans's spirits/minds/souls trap in the Fade while they sleep?

[FrankWisdom]

Crazy thoughts, what if Spirit of Faiths were the Titans's spirits/minds/souls trap in the Fade while they sleep?

If I didn't think Titans played a primordial role in keeping balance in contrast to The Fade and perhaps Dragons (who "ruled the skies") I'd agree, but I don't think that's the case. Spirits of faith are... spirits. unless Titans are also dual beings i.e. like ancient Elvhen people who were spirits that became physical beings through will alone then I don't see it. Dwarves have no connection to The Fade whatsoever because of the circumstances of their nature. perhaps Titans however do have a "dual" nature given they are somehow linked to The Fade.

 

You know one of my theories revolves around the Evanuris being sundered spirit from body and that the Old Gods could have been their physical aspects. Well I guess the same could apply to Titans. Perhaps their "consciousness" (which was sundered with the creation of the veil) was also trapped in The Fade, in a similar way then that of the Evanuris (assuming my theory is correct). This could very well be a manifestation in terms of a spirit of faith, though it seems to convenient. Also it would be hard to explain given spirits of faith existed before the veil.

 

However, that would then mean Titans were first spirits and that is what I don't buy. I believe them to be products of the "unchanging world" first (meaning that the "unchaning world" is their "point of origin" while The Fade for example is the "point of origin" for the Elvhen People, who were spirits first.

[azarhal]

Considering lyrium is in the Fade, Titans kinda need to have a dual nature. No? Although, I did say it was a crazy idea.

[Reznore57]

Considering lyrium is in the Fade, Titans kinda need to have a dual nature. No? Although, I did say it was a crazy idea.

 

Hard to know if it's truly lyrium in the fade , or just a reflection of lyrium.

[FernRain]

As for the light, I'm not sure it has anything to do with what was depicted in the murals. I think it's simply a reference to The Fade. Just remember the breach an how it was described, as a huge hole of light in the sky . Also spirits were said (in JOH) to see us as a shining beacon of light from The Fade (because of our Mark).

 

But where is there light from the breach coming from? There has to be something to explain the burning the world will experience when the veil comes down.

 

Reason I want to know about the sun is because it seems to play a role in creation if the story about Elgar'nan has any truth to it. Sun + earth = life. But the sun unchecked can burn it all up.

[midnight tea]

But where is there light from the breach coming from? There has to be something to explain the burning the world will experience when the veil comes down.

 

Reason I want to know about the sun is because it seems to play a role in creation if the story about Elgar'nan has any truth to it. Sun + earth = life. But the sun unchecked can burn it all up.

 

Actually, I think the light has a lot to do with the Fade and Sun - at least the "Sun" from legends seems to be sort of a counterpart for Earth.

 

Earth is likely the matter - the 'unchanging world' we know existed in times of ancient elves, even if the Veil itself (at least the Veil like the one that envelops the world now) didn't. 

 

Aside form some random bits here and there or things like Cole's comments about the Earth, There are two codexes that mention it pretty clearly: The Deepest Fade (http://dragonage.wik...he_Deepest_Fade) mentions "those who've never manifested out of the Fade", the "brethren of the air" (in other words: spirits)... well, what is there "outside of the Fade" than solid, unchanging world? Then there's this lecture on its nature: http://dragonage.wik...ntive_Listeners

 

And just like Earth seems to be intrinsically connected with things that are solid and material, the Sun (by extension, light and air <- both elements usually considered as divine) seems to be intrinsically connected with the Fade, which seems to be simply... the world of ideas. And between Earth and Sun - the matter and ideas - they seem to be creating life.

 

It's all seems to be based somewhat on Platonic theory of Forms or Aristotle's hylomorphism, but considering how much the ancient Elvenhan seems to be based on ancient Greece (well, it's not like many people today don't believe in some sort of duality born at least in some part from these philosophies: soul and body, life/light and matter/dark... and DA world seems to follow that duality as well), it's not much of a surprise.

 

 

Anyway... at some point it seems the balance between them was disturbed - either by Elgar'nan and his lot or by something brewing under the surface much earlier. I dunno what exactly he did to the Sun - did Elgar'nan defeated or claimed it, like they later did the Earth?

 

Dunno, but the Sun on this image:

Spoiler

 

... seems to be either protected by something in the center, or trapped.

[Reznore57]

I'm sure it's been mentioned already and we were discussing it in the Soals thread, but could this be Uthenera? Cole said they were not dead.

 

It's possible.

The question is why put elves in uthenera near a lyrium well?

[FernRain]

We found this in the same map:

 

I am empty, filled with nothing(?),
Mythal gives you dreams.
It fills you, within you(?),
Making our leaders proud.
My little stones,
Never yours the sun.
Forever, forever.

 

I had thought that meant they were Dwarves in the coffins. Mythal was somehow sustaining them.

 

Dragondreamer said something really interesting on the Solas thread:

 

It looks like Mythal is emerging from a rock, and the dragon form appears more like a sea creature.  (And all the water pouring in when things start blowing up suggests the place is somewhere underwater...)
 
Ooh...  And according to Dalish legend, Mythal first emerges from the ocean.

 

To which I added we see the buried sea in descent which seems to be.. made of lyrium? The landmark next to it is titled "bastion of the pure":

 

The water shimmers, a subtle but eerie blue, reminiscent of lyrium. Swimming in it would not be wise.

 

 

Excuse the amalgamation of thoughts in this post. It sorta tied into what we were talking about earlier regarding lyrium .

[FernRain]

Reposting:

 

Yup, I think we're on the same page.  It makes me wonder if the "Maker"/"Sun" is actually somewhere in the Void.  Or rather, beyond it.  (Justice once spoke of a place beyond even the Fade.)  When Solas does those layered spheres, I get the sense that he's presenting a simplified image of whatever cosmology the elves were aware of.  The Void is blackness, it's nothingness.  Red is Blight, which comes from the Void.  The Sun being smack dab in the center is fascinating.  The Sun is the symbol of the Maker in Andrastianism, but to the elves, it was whatever it was that Elgar'nan overthrew at the dawn of time.  Whether it's actually "bad" or not, may be beyond us to say.

 

I mean.. I'm going to go full tin-hat here. But, the sun isn't the blight (or blighted) somehow is it?

 

If it became blighted after Elgar'nan threw it into the void/abyss created by the land's sorrow.. In some ancient elven glyphs for the temple of Dirthamen quest we get "a hawk and a hare chasing the sun", the hawk and hare represent Andruil and she supposedly ended up with the blight after hanging around the void. It would explain why this world would fall (though the term is burn in the chaos) if the veil was pulled down.

 

Then there's this codex about the Empty Ones:

 

The Empty Ones were a small and short-lived cult based in Nevarra and known for worshipping the blight and, by extension, the darkspawn. Some confuse the Empty Ones with followers of Tevinter's Old Gods—a reasonable mistake since Archdemons are said to be tainted Old Gods. However, it is clear from the histories that the Empty Ones did not worship Dumat and his ilk, but the blight itself.

 

Following Andraste's death, many of her followers fell into a deep despair. They believed that the Prophet's betrayal and execution marked the beginning of the end of the world and that the Maker's wrath would soon come upon them. The most fatalistic of them all gathered together to prepare for their doom. They called themselves the Empty Ones, for they saw themselves as worthless husks, ready to be swept away by the Maker's hand.

 

It is unknown what passed then, but over time, the Empty Ones grew to believe that the blight was to be the tool by with the Maker would end all of creation. They preached that it came from the Void, a place of nothing, and that returning to the Void was something to be celebrated because it meant an end to all pain and all suffering.

 

Some mistakenly take this to mean that the Empty Ones worshipped evil, but that is an oversimplification. The Empty Ones believed the world to be beyond redemption, and that it was the Maker's will that it be destroyed completely. There are tales of Empty Ones scouring the Deep Roads, searching for darkspawn, whom they saw as the blight's prophets in order to assist them in bringing about the next Blight.

 

And the Order of Fiery Promise, "who decreed that not only was the end of the world nigh, it was necessary. Thedas must be cleansed with fire and reborn as a paradise". The astrarium codex says they hunted them because they believed destroying the astrariums would bring down the veil and end the world (in fire).

[kukumburr]

I'm sure it's been mentioned already and we were discussing it in the Soals thread, but could this be Uthenera? Cole said they were not dead.

 

I thought of Uthenera too, but you would think Solas would have cared more if that was the case. So I'm not sure, it could have something to do with the dwarves.

 

For the record, here's Cole's exact quote: "They're all singing. Coffers, coffins, corpses that aren't dead. A song crying out in the dark."

 

And since I was just looking at the screenshots I took there here are some other interesting Cole quotes: "The stone sings. The song scares them. It's the wrong song, the wrong blood. They don't know how we stand it."

 

"Songs screaming far away. It wants to wake up but can't remember how. No one should be here."

 

Another thing that caught my eye was Sera's journal update after you get out of there. She writes:

"Felt that 'things feel samey' thing again. But not where we were. Weird."

 

This is in reference to her banter about how she sometimes gets weird deja vu in places. Now Cole explains this by saying it's spirits pushing with memories that may or may not have happened, and I guess Sera is just sensitive to this. This is the banter in particular:

• Sera: Have we been here? I mean right here, doing exactly this? It feels weird.
• Cole: Yes. But not how you mean.
• Cole: In the soft thin places, spirits push with memories that didn't happen. Or did. Or might.
• Cole: Before the door is open. They could just let the cat out, and it would always be alive.
• Sera: It's like its face doesn't know what it's saying! Eww!

If that's true, then it seems to imply that that area in Trespasser is somewhere that spirits don't have memories of, or stay away from, or something. Or it means that that area doesn't have any "soft, thin places", which I'm guessing would mean the Veil is particularly strong there?

 

My first thought with that in mind would be either something to do with spirits being trapped in the bodies or corpses or whatever is in the coffins, or something makes it difficult for spirits to get through there. Or both. I don't really know, I just thought it was interesting they brought that up in Sera's journal.

[Reznore57]

That's what I found odd. We are also in a temple if you look at the ground. It's like Mythal's, there are two of her statues above and a large one near the entrance (and Fen'Harel ones) and the lyrium is completely pure. After we bomb it to heck the coffins end up submerged.

 

There's a few codices about it , but it's from the point of view of an elf who recently turned Qunari...so he's just making guesses .

http://dragonage.wik...oads,_Section_1

 

Spoiler

   

(....)These statues are old. Better shape than anything I've seen on the surface. Many of them are for Mythal, though. And Fen'Harel. Not in a spot of honor, but guarding, attending.

Protector and All-Mother, why are you honored here, so far from the light of the sun? And why was the Dread Wolf at your side?

 

(....)These statues are older than anything I saw in my days with the clan. The area's dwarven, though. What were the ancient elves doing down here? Mining? Where were the dwarves? Easier to have them mine it. Not a trading post. You don't go into a friend's home, knock over their gods, and put up your own. War? I don't remember any legends about our people fighting the dwarves. Though I remember my Keeper telling a story about how the dwarves fear the sun because of Elgar'nan's fire. A metaphor for the elves of Arlathan driving the dwarves underground? (...)

 

(...)Trying to remember that old bedtime song about Mythal. My mother sang it the night before the darkspawn came for my clan. It's the last time I ever heard her voice.

Ir sa tel'nal,
Mythal las ma theneras.
Ir san'a emma.
Him solas evanuris.
Da'durgen'lin,
Banal malas elgara.
Bellanaris, bellanaris.

Written beside each elven line is a corresponding phrase, likely a translation:

I am empty, filled with nothing(?),
Mythal gives you dreams.
It fills you, within you(?),
Making our leaders proud.
My little stones,
Never yours the sun.
Forever, forever.

Hahren said we had lost some of the old words. What if they have changed? Durgen'lin from durgen'len? Little dwarves, never yours the sun? What did Mythal do here?(...)

 

                                                                                                                                

 

Some Cole dialogue about the Deep Roads in Trespasser:(took that from FernRain screenshots)

About the coffins:

"They're all singing.Coffers,coffins, corpses that aren't dead.A song crying out in the dark."

I gather he's not talking about a Titan here , and perhaps the elves are doing some incantation.("spells in unending symphony "-Solas)

 

"Songs screaming far away.It wants to wake up but can't remember how.No one should be here."

(note here SongS and not just one song)

 

"They made bodies from the earth, and the earth was afraid.It fought back but they made it forget."

Coe says this outside the deep Roads .But it could be a clue about what the elves truly wanted to do "made bodies from the earth.There's the earth fighting back , it could be earthquakes.And made forget , it's possible the elves put all Titans to sleep and it had nothing to do with the veil.

"made it forget" and "it wants to wake up but can't remember how" .

 

                                                                                                                        

 

Spoiler

  

The pages of this book—memory?—describe a monument made in a single afternoon by a thousand-thousand toiling servants swarming over a lump of fallen stone as large as a collapsed mountain. By the end of the day, the stern figure of Elgar'nan stares down into a valley, carved out from the foothills of the rock. The slaves have disappeared. Light radiates from the eidolon's narrowed eyes and its open, snarling mouth.

"Hail Elgar'nan, first among the gods! Mark his victory eternal!"

 

 

This could be what Elgar'nan did with a fallen Titan."a lump of fallen stone as large as a collapsed moutain"...a statue of himself.I mean Elgar'nan pff...dude got issue and nothing would surprise me.

 

                                                                                                                  

 

But Mythal had something else in mind :

 

Spoiler

"Hail Mythal, adjudicator and savior! She has struck down the pillars of the earth and rendered their demesne unto the People! Praise her name forever!"

For a moment, the scent of blood fills the air, and there is a vivid image of green vines growing and enveloping a sphere of fire.
The vision grows dark. An aeon seems to pass. Then the runes crackle, as if filled with an angry energy.
A new vision appears: elves collapsing caverns, sealing the Deep Roads with stone and magic.
Terror, heart-pounding, ice-cold, as the last of the spells is cast.
A voice whispers:

"What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all. Let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The People must rise before their false gods destroy them all."

 

Spoiler

"In this place we prepare to hunt the pillars of the earth. Their workers scurry, witless, soulless. This death will be a mercy. We will make the earth blossom with their passing."

For one moment there is a vivid image of two overlapping spheres; unknown flowers bloom inside their centers. Then it fades.

 

So Mythal , I guess wanted to make the earth "bloom" and not make a giant statue of herself out of a dead Titan.Something went wrong , it seems.I guess the Primeval Thaig is an example of that.

 

                                                                                                                          

 

Anyway back to the main question!What are elves possibly in uthenera doing near a lyrium well!

Spoiler

The pages of this book—memory?—describes an immensely tall, immensely graceful vine that flowers with the heat of a copper sunset and has blossoms as large as ponds, petals as long as a man, and scents puffing out like citron and sky and carrion-death.

The day the last of the vines folds, spent and extinct, the creator of this memory weeps and, after recording the flower's sights and sounds, enters uthenera.

"Treasure this thought, for it was the last of its kind, and so much more than the last of me."

 

Apparently elves were casting a huge spell using lyrium to make something bloom.Why I don't really know ; perhaps to make "bodies from the earth" .

Also weird image of an elf coming out of a flower from the DA artbook.

 

Spoiler

  

 

 

TL;DR:

I think the elves cast a huge spell to make something bloom ,using Titans blood.

Some of them messed up , awoke  and ran away.Some perhaps didn't and were so tired they had to go in uthenera forever.

[FernRain]

Spoiler

  

 

Well that's really interesting..

 

Also the "green vines growing and enveloping a sphere of fire", and andruil's burning spear she crafted from the stars (sun's lifeblood according to the tale of Elgar'nan) is feeding my thoughts about the "sun" (as seen in the fade murals) being blighted somehow.

[FernRain]

It fits Cole's "they made bodies from the earth" quote.

 

Oh but wait, I wonder if... could it be possible they made the Darkspawn?

 

If they made the bodies from a blighted titan it's possible:

 

 

The red could represent the blight. And by the sounds of the codex it seems as though something became blighted as a result of slaying it. "Let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger", Cole says red lyrium is angry and the forgotten ones supposedly dwell in the void.

[Reznore57]

Jumping to something else , because that's what I tend to do , sorry...

There's this artwork from the DAI codex , I've been finding peculiar since day1 .

 

Spoiler

 

 

Don't laugh but my theory is it's Mythal and Fen Harel.

[azarhal]

Speaking of Songs. I'm replaying DAI with Dorian and Cole in my party and I had this banter tonight:

 

• Dorian: Do you need to eat, Cole? Or sleep?
• Cole: I thought I had to. But I don't. The Old Songs can pull me.
• Dorian: That's something. I don't know what, but it's something.
• Dorian: What about when you're injured? Why do you bleed? Is it because you think you have to?
• Cole: Is that why you bleed?
• Dorian: I-- well-- uh, yes. You have me there.