781 réponses à ce sujet

[Shari'El]

So I think Trespasser added some lore/flavour text to items because I just recently got that amulet azarhal linked but I it didn't have the wall of flavour text attached to it. Same with Elgar'nan's bow.

 

Anyhow, vines. Mythal's vallaslin are vines. Mind you so is Elgar'nan's. And actually all of them . Even lyrium veins look like vines.

A forest? A giant tree? Maybe she grew one to hide it? If you go to the DA wiki and type in vine there's all sorts of interesting references.

 

And to add, that song to Sylaise said her heat rivalled Elgar'nan's light. She rivalled a lot of things apparently (andruil's spear, Mythal's temple, June's craft)..

 

Yeah, I thought it weird that Sylaise would just rival every "god's" specialty while still appearing so little in the lore.

New headcanon! Sylaise in the Maker! Sylaise is the sun!

No, not really, I just think she had fanboys

 

As for the vines, I also thought about lyrium veins, but they are blue ):

Fade is green, trees are green, the color red can be green.

Fade vines, tree vines, red vines?

[Shari'El]

We had green lyrium in the Hissing Wastes.

 

Wasn't that veil quartz?

[jthibeault]

Can you guys help me sort out some of the timeline for this in my head? I've been reading too many things from too many places and now I feel like I'm not sure what order things might go in.

I realize that we are just guessing about some of it but if you could point out where you think I might have it wrong that would be helpful.

Solas says it started with a war, then generals>lords>kings>gods which originally made me think war with the titans however the thing about the Titan mural place being the breaking point that made Fen'Harel turn against the other gods makes me rethink that.

So maybe it was more like:

Unknown war
Generals become known as lords
kings
gods/evanuris
^ -- Solas says this all happened "slowly" so I'm thinking a huuuuge span of time here.

Evanuris start enslaving their own people

Elgar'nan does his thing with the "Sun" - whatever that is

Andruil does **** with the void??? Mythal does her thing to stop her.

Forbidden Ones cast out
(Really not sure what order any of these purple ones should go in)

***Evanuris strike down titans
Seal up the deep roads/whatever they awoke
Fen'Harel starts rebellion*** <--- This whole section maybe goes before the stuff with Elgar'nan and Andruil?
 

Evanuris Kill Mythal
Fen'Harel creates the veil

Elven people keep warring with each other?? because Abelas says they destroyed themselves and also Arlathan is destroyed which is attributed to Tevinter in this timeline but that seems really suspect now http://dragonage.wik...iki/Ancient_Age
 

This might be all pointless but my brain really wants to try to make some sense of the order of events.

[Shari'El]

Can you guys help me sort out some of the timeline for this in my head? I've been reading too many things from too many places and now I feel like I'm not sure what order things might go in.

I realize that we are just guessing about some of it but if you could point out where you think I might have it wrong that would be helpful.

Solas says it started with a war, then generals>lords>kings>gods which originally made me think war with the titans however the thing about the Titan mural place being the breaking point that made Fen'Harel turn against the other gods makes me rethink that.

So maybe it was more like:

Unknown war
Generals become known as lords
kings
gods/evanuris
^ -- Solas says this all happened "slowly" so I'm thinking a huuuuge span of time here.

Evanuris start enslaving their own people

Elgar'nan does his thing with the "Sun" - whatever that is

Andruil does **** with the void??? Mythal does her thing to stop her.

Forbidden Ones cast out
(Really not sure what order any of these purple ones should go in)

***Evanuris strike down titans
Seal up the deep roads/whatever they awoke
Fen'Harel starts rebellion*** <--- This whole section maybe goes before the stuff with Elgar'nan and Andruil?
 

Evanuris Kill Mythal
Fen'Harel creates the veil

Elven people keep warring with each other?? because Abelas says they destroyed themselves and also Arlathan is destroyed which is attributed to Tevinter in this timeline but that seems really suspect now http://dragonage.wik...iki/Ancient_Age
 

This might be all pointless but my brain really wants to try to make some sense of the order of events.

 

I'm thinking two options

 

Option #1

Elgar'nan casts "sun" down to the abyss

War with the Forgotten Ones

Generals -> Lords -> Kings -> "Gods" (this could occur throughout a long war)

Evanuris start enslaving people

Evanuris start mining lyrium, perhaps killing a titan in the process

Andruil goes down to the Void

Fen'Harel starts his rebellion (could be after the sealing of the Deep Roads)

Elves sealing the Deep Roads

Evanuris killing Mythal

Fen'Harel creates the Veil

 

Option #2

Elgar'nan casts "sun" down to the abyss

War with the titans

Generals -> Lords -> Kings -> "Gods" ("Hail Mythal, adjudicator and savior! She has struck down the pillars of the earth and rendered their demesne unto the People! Praise her name forever!")

Forgotten Ones cast out, were possibly part of the generals who became the Evanuris at the beginning.

Evanuris start enslaving people

etc.

 

 

Of course these are my opinions and how I view the current lore, I'm quite possibly very wrong

Actually I'm like 99% certain I'm wrong

[jthibeault]

I'm thinking two options

 

Option #1

Elgar'nan casts "sun" down to the abyss

War with the Forgotten Ones

Generals -> Lords -> Kings -> "Gods" (this could occur throughout a long war)

Evanuris start enslaving people

Evanuris start mining lyrium, perhaps killing a titan in the process

Andruil goes down to the Void

Fen'Harel starts his rebellion (could be after the sealing of the Deep Roads)

Elves sealing the Deep Roads

Evanuris killing Mythal

Fen'Harel creates the Veil

 

Option #2

Elgar'nan casts "sun" down to the abyss

War with the titans

Generals -> Lords -> Kings -> "Gods" ("Hail Mythal, adjudicator and savior! She has struck down the pillars of the earth and rendered their demesne unto the People! Praise her name forever!")

Forgotten Ones cast out, were possibly part of the generals who became the Evanuris at the beginning.

Evanuris start enslaving people

etc.

 

 

Of course these are my opinions and how I view the current lore, I'm quite possibly very wrong

Actually I'm like 99% certain I'm wrong

The only think that is really making me puzzle over this is the idea that a "big" event like Elgar'nan and the sun happened before they became known as Gods. As far as Solas is concerned, there was nothing special about the Evanuris, they just individually happened to be generals on the winning side of a war, powerful mages, who accumulated a loyal following who began to worship them over the years and inflate their egos. So was the "sun event" one of the things that made Elgar'nan known for being powerful? Was it something he did once he already was being worshipped as a god as a display of power? A grab for power? Was it a known early event that he later took credit for or was just atributed to him?

I really hope we get more details on this kind of thing eventually because there is just so much. And the time scale that this all happened over would also be useful.

[azarhal]

Some of the tales we have about the Enuvaris are probably pre-godhood, they were simply altered afterward to include the "divinity" of the subject.

 

For example, the one about Andruil going to the void. The story says that Mythal transformed into a huge serpent - most probably a dragon-, but another codex suggest it is a form reserved to the gods and everyone is aware of it because it is a punishable offense to take that shape.

[myahele]

Shari I thoroughly enjoyed that post! I drew the black city(?) on that mural:

 

 

 

Great find! I decided to try editing it to make the outline of the city easier to spot... it's certainly a city and what's interesting is that you can see a pathway/hallway that's penetrating through the "barrier" and seems to be comming from one of those 7 "orbs" surrounding the thing.

 

Could this mean that out of 7 only one can lead into that city containing that "thing?" 

[FrankWisdom]

The only think that is really making me puzzle over this is the idea that a "big" event like Elgar'nan and the sun happened before they became known as Gods. As far as Solas is concerned, there was nothing special about the Evanuris, they just individually happened to be generals on the winning side of a war, powerful mages, who accumulated a loyal following who began to worship them over the years and inflate their egos. So was the "sun event" one of the things that made Elgar'nan known for being powerful? Was it something he did once he already was being worshipped as a god as a display of power? A grab for power? Was it a known early event that he later took credit for or was just atributed to him?

I really hope we get more details on this kind of thing eventually because there is just so much. And the time scale that this all happened over would also be useful.

 

Since it is a creation myth, I'd wager this happened during the war that led to his "ascension" to godhood. I'm pretty much in agreement with Shari's timeline (specifically the first one, but the second is also viable) for the order of how things went down.

[FrankWisdom]

Also just these two verses from Drakon's prophecy make me think of what we are talking about.

 

Spoiler

 

Ok so here I thought of the past (imprisonment of the Evanuris by Solas) for (7) as I posted before and perhaps the future (ripping down the veil an dealing with the Evanuris). It's interesting that the Old Gods are also described as dreaming and the whispers in red lyrium say "we have found the dreams again" .

 

This could be a reference to having their dreams "devoured", which would mean (7) is a reference to the past.

 

(8) is what spoke to me as being Arlathan i.e. Arlathan was once situated where Haven is. Some speculated it referenced the destruction of Haven but I don't buy it.

 

It specifically says the "ninth sacred mountain" i.e. The frostback mountains (which rests The mortal dust of Our Lady i.e. Haven specifically) Ascended whole (intact, complete) into the heavens (into The Fade), to be given high honor (The Golden City) In the realm of dreams forever (also known as the eternal city by the Elvhen People).

 

Spoiler

 

Now, numbers 9, 10 and 11 at first made me think of the first blight i.e. 

 

(9) And I looked up and saw the seven gates of the black city shatter (Magisters break into the Golden City, unleashing the darkness)

 

and Drakon's role in the second bight. (10 and 11)

 

However, given what we were talking about and my speculation about the Old Gods being guardians/seals/gates.

 

What if the parallels of the past are also future events (this is after all supposed to be a prophecy, fake or not).

 

then (9) could pertain to the 7 Old Gods i.e. they are the gates that were and will be shattered. Once all 7 are dead/destroyed, then darkness will cloak both realms. The Black City in The Fade, Darkspawn from the deep roads surfacing in the "unchanging world". I already thought of this (and people have already brought it up in a similar fashion), especially with Solas' plans to destroy the veil, but it hits me harder this time.

 

"Remember the fire, you must pass through it alone to be reforged anew."

 

Obviously (10) and (11) also describe Drakon's trials throughout the second blight and it's also an allegory for faith (just like the last test in Dragon Age: Origins in the temple of sacred ashes where we have to pass through the "cleansing" flames as a test of our faith and conviction in order to reach the ashes of Andraste and be "reborn anew") but the similarities are there for a reason (being a prophecy, assuming this was sent by a being like Mythal for example).

 

The fire is also a recurring theme as previous posts mention including my own. It's pretty interesting. I'm going to compile more stuff when I'm feeling less lazy

[Shari'El]

Also just these two verses from Drakon's prophecy make me think of what we are talking about.

 

-snip snip-

 

Verses 7-9 are still part of the portents of the Maker's returning, so it's potentially speaking of future events or events that are currently transpiring (in DAI post-Trespasser) in Thedas. I read it as Fen'Harel waking ancient elves (to prepare for his apocalypse) followed by some event in the Frostback mountains and then by the Veil falling down (allowing us to see the Black City in the sky). The part about "darkness cloaked both realms" along with the Black City reminds me of Eleni Zinovia's cryptic words "The prison is breached. I see the encroaching darkness. The... the shadow will consume all..." and the part about "the darkness warp and crumble" makes me think about Sandal's "the shadows will part and the skies will open wide".

Of course it could be more symbolic than that, like what you wrote about the Old Gods being the gates.

 

Seeing that prophecies in Thedas are an actual thing (since they are usually given by spirits) it's not that far-fetched to search Drakon's prophecy for clues regarding what will happen next. 

We can't know for certain how said prophecy was given to Drakon, but if he saw it by images he may have seen them through his Andrastian-tinted glasses...

It is also important to note this canticle has been rewritten several times, possibly because it wasn't Andrastian enough. I really wish we had the original prophecy since I got a feeling we would've been able to learn a lot from it.

 

http://forum.bioware...ovia/?bioware=1

[Reznore57]

Great find! I decided to try editing it to make the outline of the city easier to spot... it's certainly a city and what's interesting is that you can see a pathway/hallway that's penetrating through the "barrier" and seems to be comming from one of those 7 "orbs" surrounding the thing.

 

Could this mean that out of 7 only one can lead into that city containing that "thing?" 

 

This is just really creepy.

What's creeping me out is I thought the little pink things were maybe people or spirits , but in this image they made me think of those small windows we can see in some ruins in the fade.

 

Spoiler

 

So my mind goes to bad places ...was the city shiny because it was made from the actual spark of life "Light" using spirits or people/dreamer to build it?

Or were there a number of spirits in there ?

I usually don't give a crap about spirits but ewww...was the Golden City "alive" ...ew.

 

About the idea Old Gods were "seals" well it's possible , we know dragons are somewhat resistant to the Taint , they can create pocket of flesh in their own bodies to isolate the infection and keep it from spreading.

So possible they were involved in some ritual to isolate the Blight ...

Man what did the elves do I mean it's not like there's just the Blight hidden in the Golden City , if this picture is correct , there's the "Sun" in there too...

 

And I know the Chantry thinks the "Sun" , aka Maker is a good thing , everybody loves the light ...but I tend to not buy the whole being purified by "fire" , the elves didn't seem to think that whole "purified" by fire thingie was fun or great if we believe Dalish myth.

So yeah the Golden City,it keeps on giving.

[jthibeault]

If the archdemon/old gods are seals/gates then I wonder what the deal was with that empty archdemon prison that the legion of the dead found. There is an entry in WoT2 about it, the darkspawn wouldn't go in and it made the dwarves feel ill and very strange. I think it's been posted on this thread before but I can't find it now.

[azarhal]

 

And I know the Chantry thinks the "Sun" , aka Maker is a good thing , everybody loves the light ...but I tend to not buy the whole being purified by "fire" , the elves didn't seem to think that whole "purified" by fire thingie was fun or great if we believe Dalish myth.

So yeah the Golden City,it keeps on giving.

 

If we go by Cassandra's "The Maker is not always kind" and some other of her comments in DAI on the subject, I think what the mass believe and what Andraste preached** are very different things. I suspect the Maker as a benevolent entity who will forgive you for you sins is a Chantry creation (whatever that come from Drakon or Hessarian is another question) that was added later. It just look much better in the new membership pamphlet than "Protect all the Maker has created without expecting anything in return".

 

**I just read the early parts of WoT vol2 about Andraste's life. How can the Orlesian Chantry be in denial that she was a mage? Everything about her illness scream Dreamer: long period of trances, visions, hearing voices, etc.

[FernRain]

When did the Maker cult even come into being? That might give some hints as to who was pushing for more "sun" worship.

[Reznore57]

If we go by Cassandra's "The Maker is not always kind" and some other of her comments in DAI on the subject, I think what the mass believe and what Andraste preached** are very different things. I suspect the Maker as a benevolent entity who will forgive you for you sins is a Chantry creation (whatever that come from Drakon or Hessarian is another question) that was added later. It just look much better in the new membership pamphlet than "Protect all the Maker has created without expecting anything in return".

 

**I just read the early parts of WoT vol2 about Andraste's life. How can the Orlesian Chantry be in denial that she was a mage? Everything about her illness scream Dreamer: long period of trances, visions, hearing voices, etc.

 

It just reminds me of a couple of banters between Merrill and Anders :

• Merrill: You really believe don't you?
• Anders: What are you talking about?
• Merrill: Believing. You do, I can tell, in freedom, in mages, in good spirits and bad templars. With more fire than the sun.
• Anders: And your point is?
• Merrill: I miss it sometimes, things being certain.
• Anders: Some things are certain.
• Merrill: Not anymore.

───────

• Merrill: Be careful what you believe in. A lot of things burn in that fire.
• Anders: Burning isn't necessarily bad. Fire can cleanse.
• Merrill: I don't think people are cleansed by fire. I used to believe in things, too. Now, I think maybe it's better just to believe in people.
• Anders: People make mistakes.
• Merrill: That's why they need you to believe in them. If you never made mistakes, it wouldn't matter if you believed.

[jthibeault]

If we go by Cassandra's "The Maker is not always kind" and some other of her comments in DAI on the subject, I think what the mass believe and what Andraste preached** are very different things. I suspect the Maker as a benevolent entity who will forgive you for you sins is a Chantry creation (whatever that come from Drakon or Hessarian is another question) that was added later. It just look much better in the new membership pamphlet than "Protect all the Maker has created without expecting anything in return".

 

**I just read the early parts of WoT vol2 about Andraste's life. How can the Orlesian Chantry be in denial that she was a mage? Everything about her illness scream Dreamer: long period of trances, visions, hearing voices, etc.

Right? About the mage thing. I also wonder who it was that spoke to her in her dreams because I feel like it is likely to be one of the characters already in play ie: an Old God, an Evanuris, a Forgotten One, Forbidden One? Solas? Mythal? I don't buy that it was actually the ultimate creator being of all the things.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Right? About the mage thing. I also wonder who it was that spoke to her in her dreams because I feel like it is likely to be one of the characters already in play ie: an Old God, an Evanuris, a Forgotten One, Forbidden One? Solas? Mythal? I don't buy that it was actually the ultimate creator being of all the things.

 

I don't think it was the Maker either, but I also don't think they'll ever tell us one way or another.

 

The likeliest candidate for the "Maker" is IMO Mythal.  If the Evanuris were the Old Gods, and their manipulation of the magisters was an attempt to free themselves from their prison, maybe Mythal wanted to make sure they'd stay down.  So she directed Andraste and the Alamarri against the Imperium, crippling it and ensuring that they would never again have the resources to perform such a stupid stunt.

[Reznore57]

When did the Maker cult even come into being? That might give some hints as to who was pushing for more "sun" worship.

 

No idea .

There 's this old interesting posts by David Gaider.http://forum.bioware...ions/?bioware=1

(it's from 2009 though so ..):

 

The cult of the Old Gods (I don't call it "the Tevinter religion" mainly because that, to me, speaks of the Imperial Chantry -- which is based in today's Tevinter Imperium) didn't contradict the existence of the Maker. Quite the opposite. The people of ancient Tevinter were aware of the existence of the Golden City and ascribed to "the Maker" (though this Creator was not called this until the appearance of the Chantry) the creation of the world. The Old Gods were not creators, though they were supposedly also not created. The Old Gods were outside of the Creator's Plan and showed up to whisper to mankind and teach them magic. According to the Chantry, they turned mankind away from their regard for a remote Creator (who ruled remotely and never interacted with his own creations) and that this is what made the Creator abandon the Golden City... though there is argument that the cult believed the Creator had abandoned it long before and that they were adrift, rescued by the Old Gods. Modern sages say that this is attempt to explain the hardships that the early human civilizations faced, and not evidence of the Maker actually being absent.

So when Andraste showed up much, much later, she was advocating a return to the "rightful" worship of the Maker... it was not a belief that came out of nowhere.

As for the elves, their understanding of their own religion is incomplete. The whole truth was lost along with Arlathan and their immortality -- much of their lore was kept by a tradition of apprenticeship, handed down from the knowledgeable to the young, and this relied on the fact that the knowledgeable were eternal. Slaves also had less opportunity to spread their lore, so the sudden aging of the knowledgeable meant that much of this information was simply gone after several generations. This, of course, is their belief: the ancient Imperium maintained that the elves were never immortal to begin with, and that their lore was lost simply because the Imperium forbade its teaching.

Even so, the ancient elves did write things down, and so some scraps have been recovered. Thus the Dalish have slowly reassembled a religion from those pieces of lore, though how complete it is cannot be known. Even so, a few things are factual. For one, the original elven religion predates the cult of the Old Gods by a long time. Could the Old Gods have been based on the elven gods? Possibly, but there's nothing to suggest the elven gods were ever dragons, and certainly the contempt the Imperium held for elven culture makes it unlikely that they would think elven gods were worth worshipping. Consider also that it was the Old Gods that taught humanity its magic and encouraged them to destroy Arlathan -- why would elven gods do this? One could point to the Forgotten Ones (look at the codex entry on Fen'Harel for their mention) and suggest that they had reason for vengeance, though that would probably be against Fen'Harel and their good brethren and not against the elven people themselves, no? Still, all of that depends on how much of the knowledge given by Dalish tales is complete.

In terms of the elven religion's view of the Maker (or lack thereof), it might be interesting to point out that the elven creation myth doesn't stem from their gods. According to Dalish understanding, Elgar'nan and Mythal, the Father and the Mother, did not create the world. They were born of the world. The world was always there, and while it doesn't indicate the presence of a single creator that made the world it also doesn't necessarily contradict it.

The modern Chantry, however, does say that all these other gods are false. It doesn't say they never existed (though the elven legends are dismissed as just that, for the most part, but that's a carry-over of Imperial belief), but merely suggests that the Maker was long ago forgotten and that He is the only god that is worthy of true worship. The fact that His creations turned away from Him is shameful, and it is only by proving our worth to Him once again that the world will become the paradise He intended.

All of this is, of course, open to interpretation. That's part of the point of faith, if you ask me. Were some god to appear on earth and tell everyone How It Really Is that would destroy the very idea of faith -- though at that point one would have to ask: is such a being really a god? What is a god? What ideas are really worth worship? To me, that's the notion that's worth exploring. Beyond that, all conjecture is welcome.

 

 

It's funny to read some stuff with what we know now."There's nothing to suggest the elven gods were ever dragons " well no but we now know they could shapeshift into dragons...

 

Anyway the belief in a "Maker" is at least as old as Tevinter .

[FrankWisdom]

Verses 7-9 are still part of the portents of the Maker's returning, so it's potentially speaking of future events or events that are currently transpiring (in DAI post-Trespasser) in Thedas. I read it as Fen'Harel waking ancient elves (to prepare for his apocalypse) followed by some an event in the Frostback mountains and then by the Veil falling down (allowing us to see the Black City in the sky). The part about "darkness cloaked both realms" along with the Black City reminds me of Eleni Zinovia's cryptic words "The prison is breached. I see the encroaching darkness. The... the shadow will consume all..." and the part about "the darkness warp and crumble" makes me think about Sandal's "the shadows will part and the skies will open wide".

Of course it could be more symbolic than that, like what you wrote about the Old Gods being the gates.

 

Seeing that prophecies in Thedas are an actual thing (since they are usually given by spirits) it's not that far-fetched to search Drakon's prophecy for clues regarding what will happen next. 

We can't know for certain how said prophecy was given to Drakon, but if he saw it by images he may have seen them through his Andrastian-tinted glasses...

It is also important to note this canticle has been rewritten several times, possibly because it wasn't Andrastian enough. I really wish we had the original prophecy since I got a feeling we would've been able to learn a lot from it.

 

http://forum.bioware...ovia/?bioware=1

I agree. I just think it might be both (past and future) in terms of parallels. And yes I did take into account his bias as well as the rewrites and like you I would have loved to see the original

[FrankWisdom]

If the archdemon/old gods are seals/gates then I wonder what the deal was with that empty archdemon prison that the legion of the dead found. There is an entry in WoT2 about it, the darkspawn wouldn't go in and it made the dwarves feel ill and very strange. I think it's been posted on this thread before but I can't find it now.

Yeah I posted it on here

 

It's this one

 

 

It also had me ask questions about what those "chains" really were. It definitely is not a Titan. The residual feeling seemed like it was extremely powerful and unnatural, even considering darkspawn... Makes you wonder who actually chained up the Old Gods and why exactly. Maybe it was the Forgotten Ones who imprisoned them, and they were The Evanuris' guardians, or perhaps they are the Forgotten Ones and the Evanuris' who chained them up were already infected by the blight? I don't know, there's still something we're missing.

[Reznore57]

Yeah I posted it on here

 

It's this one

 

 

It also had me ask questions about hat those "chains" really were. It definitely is not a Titan. The residual feeling seemed like it was extremely powerful and unnatural, even considering darkspawn... Makes you wonder who actually chained up the Old Gods and why exactly. Maybe it was the Forgotten Ones who imprisoned them, and they were The Evanuris' guardians, or perhaps they are the Forgotten Ones and the Evanuris' who chained them up were already infected by the blight? I don't know, there's still something we're missing.

 

The hands going numb made me think of a Sloth demon like DAO , stirred the brain from the skull , perhaps the mind being pulled to the fade.

 

You also have to wonder why there's "dried out" darkspawn , because unless something suck the blight out of them , darkspawn don't die from hunger , exhaustion etc , the taint sustain them.