781 réponses à ce sujet

[Reznore57]

I tend to think Fen Harel was Mythal champion , we know the Evanuris named some of their people "champion" at least when they wanted to duel to solve problems.

Now I'm not sure why the elves would create mosaic and statue just for one of Mythal's lackey.

I assume at one point Mythal made Solas ascend to some form of Godhood , just like Andruil did with Ghilan'nain.

I'm unclear when Solas truly started to act rebellious , freeing slaves and such...because he would have been a thorn in Mythal's side unless she wanted to enact reform.

But still , it seems like a very dangerous game to play.

 

I can imagine Mythal being fond of Solas , even if it wasn't truly wise .

Morrigan is also an example of someone who's kind of chaotic , very self assured , she is far from being a freedom fighter for others , but she can't stand people who bow down without a fight.

 

For me the true odd duck in the story is Mythal , if the story are true , she was one of the main force building the Elven Empire , with all the Gods Tyrants , slaves etc...

But then she's also the catalyst for bringing the whole empire down , with her opposing the other gods , and grooming Solas for whatever.

[myahele]

I go with the possibility that Solas began freeing slaves after Mythal was killed. Just like how his views changed about modern people, his view of slavery might've been different when he was younger. Maybe he was closer to Dorian's POV regarding slavery, but once he became older and especially once Mythal was killed that was when he decided to do what he did?

 

Afterall, Mythal's "justice" was not as simple (who invoke her properly) can call upon her. While not very ideal, it at least would give pause to those who unjustly abuse their slaves too much.

[FrankWisdom]

Yup, seems like Fen'Harel was rebelling until after the Evanuris started messing with the titans.

There was a theory at the time of Solas being betrayed by Dirthamen, that they were friends and that the his trust was shattered because of something he did (after the Temple of Mythal Solas asks the Inquisitor what they'll do with the power of the well, one dialogue branch leads to him speaking of trust as a mistake), this was also reinforced by the statue of Dirthamen in the statue with a knife sticking out of his back and blood cascading from the wound.

I do not know if it is true, but if it is, it would explain the wolf statues scattered around his temple (if it was built pre-Veil).

 

Edit:

Spoiler

 

This rune makes me believe this temple was build pre-Veil.

 

Yep I agree with that. Didn't remember the inscriptions. I guess the temple of Dirthamen isn't a good example to use. It does raise questions about Fen'Harel's exact role in relation to Dirthamen and more importantly, why Dirthamen's followers would erect statues of Fen'Harel within his temple. I don't see him as being the "guardian" of all the gods, as mentioned in my OP.

[FrankWisdom]

Just to verify, one of the theories is that Dirthamen and Falon'Din are the same person. If so, did he simply changed his name or something else?

 

It's hard to say. If he had been the same person though then there would only be six Evanuris imprisoned and I don't buy it. There is something about the number 7 (even if with Mythal it would have meant 7 original Evanuris instead of 8).

 

Also remember that Solas called the Evanuris the "first" of his people. That in my opinion means they were the first to take form. Perhaps Dirthamen/Falon'Din were one spirit that became two beings. I don't know if that is possible but we don't have all of the specifics in terms of what was possible pre-veil. All I know is reflection/shadow means they mirror each other in some way. It might be that they were both spirits of the same nature i.e. wisdom/wisdom purpose/purpose etc. that started representing different things once they took form and became more complex beings. Perhaps that created a bond between them which is why they came to be known as "twin souls".

 

Either way I don't believe it's as simple as them being the same person who just changed his name. I'm sure it has to do with Elvhen nature i.e. when they were spirits who then took form through will alone to become more than they were originally.

[myahele]

I never thought of Dirthamen betraying Mythal (and Solas) but if that was the case then seeing Dirthmen's statue with a sword on his back (back stabber) in Flemythal's domain in the Fade would kinda make sense.

 

Solas quote "While one selfless woman can walk away from the lure of power's corruption no group has ever done so" and if the inquisitor says they trust in their friends Solas says "I know that mistake well enough that I can carve her face (Mythal's murder?) from memory" Could this be Solas speaking about his past? We know that Solas and Mythal had a real good connection, so perhaps Mythal gave him a heads up of her plan. As a result he told Dirthamen (Keeper of Secrets) believing him trustworthy enough .... but we all know how Dirthamen is allied/ very close to Falon'Din (who's not good and Mythal had to rally the other's to beat him to a pulp) ... which ultimately lead to the rest of the Evanuris to kill her.

 

What that plan was, who knows? I am pretty sure they were pretty annoyed at Mythal's constant meddling, but I doubt that was enough for them to team up together and kill Mythal. Mythal may have planned something that they did not want to happen.

 

I also think that Solas shared a bit of his knowledge and/or power to the Forgotten Ones, but that eventually back-fired. In the end, it really shows how and why Solas is not willing to share power/knowledge. 

 

Perhaps Falon'Din and Dirthamen each gave a piece of their souls to one another. "A soul is not forced upon the unwilling" and we know you can put pieces of your soul into anything and probably anyone who's willing. That way "twin souls" would make sense. 

[FrankWisdom]

Interesting stuff about the wolves being guardians and not representation of Fen'Harel. That would mean Solas was Mythal's puppy and would explain his "she was the best ever!" speech and why he went kinda crazy after her death. I also think, he was a spirit that was bound, just like the Lady of the Forest...

 

But that would mean the others also had their guardian pets...where are they?

 

I thought you did but if you didn't, read these two parts of my OP

 

5B. Imprisonment: Location & status; Creation of the Veil

 

6B. Solas & Mythal, relationship, Plans Then & Now

 

They kind of address your thoughts/questions precisely...

 

 

I have the crazy theory (I'm not the only one) that Dirthamen and Falon'Din are the same entity that just changed its name after Mythal and the others attacked him because he wasn't a nice guy. We know Abelas changed his name after Mythal death so we do have a precedent.

 

Seems like it went Falon'Din  => Dirthamen going by the Lost Temple and the belief that Falon'Din was Dirthamen shadow.

To quote my response to the same question. Food for Thought.

 

"It's hard to say. If he had been the same person though then there would only be six Evanuris imprisoned and I don't buy it. There is something about the number 7 (even if with Mythal it would have meant 7 original Evanuris instead of 8).

 

Also remember where that Solas called the Evanuris the "first" of his people. That in my opinion means they were the first to take form. Perhaps Dirthamen/Falon'Din were one spirit that became two beings. I don't know if that is possible but we don't know all of the specifics in terms of what was possible pre-veil. all I know is reflection/shadow means they mirror each other in some way. It might be that they were both spirits of the same nature i.e. wisdom/wisdom purpose/purpose etc. that started representing different things once they took form and became more complex beings. Perhaps that created a bond between them which is why they came to be known as "twin souls".

 

Either way I don't believe it's as them being the same person who just changed his name. I'm sure it has to do with Elvhen nature i.e. when they were spirits who then took form through will alone to become more than they were originally."

[FrankWisdom]

 

Perhaps Falon'Din and Dirthamen each gave a piece of their souls to one another. "A soul is not forced upon the unwilling" and we know you can put pieces of your soul into anything and probably anyone who's willing. That way "twin souls" would make sense. 

 

I first thought that Falon'Din/DIrthamen might have been in the same situation as an Augur's apprentice from the Avvar i.e. One took physical form while the other chose to stay a spirit (who lived inside the other) and at some point that spirit also decided to take form and split from the other. However we know that they pre-veil all Elvhen could switch between spirit form and physical form, so I don't know how that would've worked. So for now I'm going to stick with the theory I described above.

[figment_]

I first thought that Falon'Din/DIrthamen might have been in the same situation as an Augur's apprentice from the Avvar i.e. One took physical form while the other chose to stay a spirit (who lived inside the other) and at some point that spirit also decided to take form and split from the other. However we know that they pre-veil all Elvhen could switch between spirit form and physical form, so I don't know how that would've worked. So for now I'm going to stick with the theory I described above.

I had a random thought:

Perhaps they are like "two sides of the same coin", divergent spirits that complement each other. Maybe two once-identical spirits from the same source that developed to encompass that myriad of possible facets that was lacking in the other. Light/Dark, Yin/Yang...but not as simplistic?

 

Edit: Could this also make it more likely that Falon'Din betrayed Dirthamen, or vice-versa?

[jthibeault]

I'm reaching but here is what makes me think Solas had started his rebellion before Mythal was killed.

First we have the titan mural from Trespasser

"

In the light of the veilfire, the runes seem to shift, coiling and uncoiling like snakes. A thunderous voice shatters the stillness, shouting:

"Hail Mythal, adjudicator and savior! She has struck down the pillars of the earth and rendered their demesne unto the People! Praise her name forever!"

For a moment, the scent of blood fills the air, and there is a vivid image of green vines growing and enveloping a sphere of fire.
The vision grows dark. An aeon seems to pass. Then the runes crackle, as if filled with an angry energy.
A new vision appears: elves collapsing caverns, sealing the Deep Roads with stone and magic.
Terror, heart-pounding, ice-cold, as the last of the spells is cast.
A voice whispers:

"What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all. Let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The People must rise before their false gods destroy them all.""

So I read this as Mythal striking the Titan down and then a long time passing. The scene description for that spot that someone found in the code

Spoiler

says that this is what made Fen'Harel turn against the other gods, and the final sentence seems to back this up.

Then in the final conversation with Solas he says

"I sought to set my people free from slavery to would-be gods. I broke the chains of all who wished to join me. The false gods called me Fen’Harel, and when they finally went too far, I formed the Veil and banished them forever. Thus I freed the elven people and, in so doing, destroyed their world." (this is the only place I could find this written down there are lots of videos but not as many written scripts)

We could choose to read this section of dialog as the order of events then:
breaking the chains of the elves -> Evanuris calling him Fen'Harel -> and then forming the Veil after Mythal was killed (which is what he answers as "how did they go to far?")

But I feel that even this one sentence explains it on it's own: The false gods called me Fen’Harel(because he was rebelling), and when they finally (suggesting this went on for some time) went too far, (they went too far by killing Mythall, which lead directly to ->) I formed the Veil and banished them forever. I also feel that the final sentence reinforces this "Thus I freed the elven people ..." suggesting that that was the end of the "freeing" part and perhaps he disappeared and slept shortly after. Even if he didn't though, I really feel like this all suggests that his rebellion started while Mythal was alive. Certainly this would have made things difficult for her but we don't get any info about what she was doing or how she was interacting with the other Evanuris at that time.

[figment_]

I'm reaching but here is what makes me think Solas had started his rebellion before Mythal was killed.

First we have the titan mural from Trespasser

"

In the light of the veilfire, the runes seem to shift, coiling and uncoiling like snakes. A thunderous voice shatters the stillness, shouting:

"Hail Mythal, adjudicator and savior! She has struck down the pillars of the earth and rendered their demesne unto the People! Praise her name forever!"

For a moment, the scent of blood fills the air, and there is a vivid image of green vines growing and enveloping a sphere of fire.
The vision grows dark. An aeon seems to pass. Then the runes crackle, as if filled with an angry energy.
A new vision appears: elves collapsing caverns, sealing the Deep Roads with stone and magic.
Terror, heart-pounding, ice-cold, as the last of the spells is cast.
A voice whispers:

"What the Evanuris in their greed could unleash would end us all. Let this place be forgotten. Let no one wake its anger. The People must rise before their false gods destroy them all.""

So I read this as Mythal striking the Titan down and then a long time passing. The scene description for that spot that someone found in the code

Spoiler

says that this is what made Fen'Harel turn against the other gods, and the final sentence seems to back this up.

Then in the final conversation with Solas he says

"I sought to set my people free from slavery to would-be gods. I broke the chains of all who wished to join me. The false gods called me Fen’Harel, and when they finally went too far, I formed the Veil and banished them forever. Thus I freed the elven people and, in so doing, destroyed their world." (this is the only place I could find this written down there are lots of videos but not as many written scripts)

We could choose to read this section of dialog as the order of events then:
breaking the chains of the elves -> Evanuris calling him Fen'Harel -> and then forming the Veil after Mythal was killed (which is what he answers as "how did they go to far?")

But I feel that even this one sentence explains it on it's own: The false gods called me Fen’Harel(because he was rebelling), and when they finally (suggesting this went on for some time) went too far, (they went too far by killing Mythall, which lead directly to ->) I formed the Veil and banished them forever. I also feel that the final sentence reinforces this "Thus I freed the elven people ..." suggesting that that was the end of the "freeing" part and perhaps he disappeared and slept shortly after. Even if he didn't though, I really feel like this all suggests that his rebellion started while Mythal was alive. Certainly this would have made things difficult for her but we don't get any info about what she was doing or how she was interacting with the other Evanuris at that time.

Also remember that the Inquisitor who drank from the well knows the passphrase to Fen'Harel's "refuge", indicating that Mythal and her followers were welcome...

[FrankWisdom]

Then in the final conversation with Solas he says

"I sought to set my people free from slavery to would-be gods. I broke the chains of all who wished to join me. The false gods called me Fen’Harel, and when they finally went too far, I formed the Veil and banished them forever. Thus I freed the elven people and, in so doing, destroyed their world." (this is the only place I could find this written down there are lots of videos but not as many written scripts)

 

"(this is the only place I could find this written down there are lots of videos but not as many written scripts)"

 

 

[azarhal]

It's hard to say. If he had been the same person though then there would only be six Evanuris imprisoned and I don't buy it. There is something about the number 7 (even if with Mythal it would have meant 7 original Evanuris instead of 8).

 

If the concept of "originals" is a thing and considering we don't exactly know how they were "made" (aka the ascension process), it is possible they didn't all ascend at the same time anyway.

 

An interesting point about "originals" though, Sylaise's song leave out Dirthamen, Falon'Din and Ghilan'nain:

Sylaise, whose heat rivals Elgar'nan's light.
Sylaise, whose temples rival Mythal's cities.
Sylaise, whose breath rivals Andruil's spear.
Sylaise, whose skill rivals June's craft.
Sylaise, whose fire cannot be quenched.

 

Why no comparison to the others?

[FrankWisdom]

 

If the concept of "originals" is a thing and considering we don't exactly know how they were "made" (aka the ascension process), it is possible they didn't all ascend at the same time anyway.

 

An interesting point about "originals" though, Sylaise's song leave out Dirthamen, Falon'Din and Ghilan'nain:

Sylaise, whose heat rivals Elgar'nan's light.
Sylaise, whose temples rival Mythal's cities.
Sylaise, whose breath rivals Andruil's spear.
Sylaise, whose skill rivals June's craft.
Sylaise, whose fire cannot be quenched.

 

Why no comparison to the others?

 

 

"If the concept of "originals" is a thing..."

 

It's not a thing. I just wrote originals in the context of my point i.e. the number of Evanuris vs. whether Falon'Din and Dirthamen were one being once they became Evanuris.

 

"and considering we don't exactly know how they were "made" (aka the ascension process)..."

 

we were told of their ascension by Solas.

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

 

Whether you choose to believe him however, is you prerogative, though I don't see any reason for him to lie, even if the details aren't specified, the meaning isn't skewed.

 

"it is possible they didn't all ascend at the same time anyway."

 

We have evidence that this was the case for at least one Evanuris.

 

Ghilan'nain for example was said to have been made an Evanuris after the others had already "ascended", most likely in a bid to use her magical talents while simultaneously averting the chance of her becoming a threat (their enemy) as well as being able to keep an eye on her.

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

Again, take this with a grain of salt, though it has no known author and isn't recounted in a romanticized fashion. It seems to have been written by someone who remembers rather than someone who has heard tales.

 

"An interesting point about "originals" though, Sylaise's song leave out Dirthamen, Falon'Din and Ghilan'nain:"

Sylaise, whose heat rivals Elgar'nan's light.
Sylaise, whose temples rival Mythal's cities.
Sylaise, whose breath rivals Andruil's spear.
Sylaise, whose skill rivals June's craft.
Sylaise, whose fire cannot be quenched.

 

"Why no comparison to the others?"

 

Context. Perhaps it does have to do with position i.e. Falon'Din, DIrthamen and Ghilan'nain were the last to be considered gods i.e. made Evanuris.

 

Whatever the case, this is obviously written by followers of Sylaise, who have put her on a pedestal. So all of this is biased and has to be taken with a grain of salt.

[azarhal]

 

"If the concept of "originals" is a thing..."

 

It's not a thing. I just wrote originals in the context of my point i.e. the number of Evanuris vs. whether Falon'Din and Dirthamen were one being once they became Evanuris.

 

"and considering we don't exactly know how they were "made" (aka the ascension process)..."

 

we were told of their ascension by Solas.

 

Original in my book means the first ones and others joined later. We know they were not always seen as gods, we don't know if some took the mantle before the others did which makes fitting them to the number seven to them totally moot.  Also, Mythal should count all the time, she was one of them until her death which spell the end of their godhood because Solas locked them away for it.

 

Really, going by how much you love your number 7, I don't see why you are against Dirthamen/Falon'Din being the same entity so much. It make seven Evanuris by including all of them:

Elgar'nan

Andruil

June

Sylaise

Mythal

Dirthamen/Falon'Din

Ghilan'nain

 

 

And yes, that would mean one of the Old Gods should be Mythal if we believe that OldGolds=Mythal, considering what she seems to be doing lately (aka scaring elves in their sleeps), she seems to know how to whispers like one at least...

 

And by ascension I meant how they gained their godly powers, not their social raise.

[FrankWisdom]

Original in my book means the first ones and others joined later. We know they were not always seen as gods, we don't know if some took the mantle before the others did which makes fitting them to the number seven to them totally moot.  Also, Mythal should count all the time, she was one of them until her death which spell the end of their godhood because Solas locked them away for it.

 

Really, going by how much you love your number 7, I don't see why you are against Dirthamen/Falon'Din being the same entity so much. It make seven Evanuris by including all of them:

Elgar'nan

Andruil

June

Sylaise

Mythal

Dirthamen/Falon'Din

Ghilan'nain

 

 

 

... Yes, that was my point.

 

"Really, going by how much you love your number 7, I don't see why you are against Dirthamen/Falon'Din being the same entity so much. It make seven Evanuris by including all of them":

 

I was however, emphasizing 7 imprisoned Evanuris vs. 7 "original" Evanuris, which is why I used to the term "original". To highlight the discrepancy in the context of my argument.

It's hard to say. If he had been the same person though then there would only be six Evanuris imprisoned and I don't buy it. There is something about the number 7 (even if with Mythal it would have meant 7 original Evanuris instead of 8).

 

"Really, going by how much you love your number 7"

 

I don't "love" the number 7 and my comments weren't personal, I hope you aren't taking them as such. It's just a recurring theme I wanted to point out.

 

"Original in my book means the first ones and others joined later."

 

You were quoting my post, so I explained to you the context in which I was using the term. You can assign whatever meaning you want to it, but that wasn't the context I assigned to it.

 

 

"If the concept of "originals" is a thing..."

 

It's not a thing. I just wrote originals in the context of my point i.e. the number of Evanuris vs. whether Falon'Din and Dirthamen were one being once they became Evanuris.

 

 

"Also, Mythal should count all the time, she was one of them until her death which spell the end of their godhood because Solas locked them away for it."

 

I never discounted her. Again I was speaking in context of imprisoned Evanuris, which is where the discrepancy comes in play.

 

"And by ascension I meant how they gained their godly powers, not their social raise."

 

I understood your meaning, but my point was that they are both the same. If you look at the screenshots the inquisitor asks

 

 

"The Evanuris were Elvhen mages? How did they come to be remembered as gods?"

 

Their deeds in the war brought forth their positions, their natural abilities were how they accomplished these deeds.

 

They go hand in hand. What made the Evanuris dangerous was their will.

 

The rest came after, once they were already established as "gods", presumably their tampering with Titans and perhaps the blight etc.

 

"And yes, that would mean one of the Old Gods should be Mythal if we believe that OldGolds=Mythal"

 

I never mentioned the Old Gods, though they are part of why the number 7 is interesting to me, among other things.

[Wahed89]

One thing I find interesting is the fact the "old god" souls seem to have escaped whatever incarceration Solas placed them under, but not the Evanuris. Unless I've got the lore completely wrong and am assuming the forgotten ones and the old gods are the same thing.

[azarhal]

One thing I find interesting is the fact the "old god" souls seem to have escaped whatever incarceration Solas placed them under, but not the Evanuris. Unless I've got the lore completely wrong and am assuming the forgotten ones and the old gods are the same thing.

 

Solas never claimed to have trapped the "old gods" (or the Forgotten Ones like the Dalish claim for that matter which makes their status an unknown, especially with the Andruil's codex about them living in the Void/Abyss before Mythal was slain).

 

Going by a Solas/Cassandra banter, the "Old Gods" and the dragons that becomes archdemons might not be a single entity anyway. Flemythal might have been trying to save the dragon's soul only for all we know (and we do know she likes saving dragons):

 

Cassandra: Solas, the dragon Corypheus commands --- could it truly be an Archdemon ? 

Solas: One assumes that if it were, we would be facing a Blight. 
Cassandra: So what is it, then ? A corrupted dragon, simply another darkspawn ? 
Solas: It is connected to Corypheus. Such a relation goes beyond mere control --- it is a bond. 
Cassandra: It makes you wonder if that's all the Archdemons themselves are: pets to beings who no longer exist. 
Solas: I would not go as far as that. This dragon is a replica spawned from a creature who aspires to greatness, no more.

[jthibeault]

"(this is the only place I could find this written down there are lots of videos but not as many written scripts)"

 

 

Thanks for the photos!
I would still like to find text scripts if anyone has them but photos are at least easier to use for posts than videos.

[ElitheProphet]

 

 

Solas never claimed to have trapped the "old gods" (or the Forgotten Ones like the Dalish claim for that matter which makes their status an unknown, especially with the Andruil's codex about them living in the Void/Abyss before Mythal was slain).

 

Going by a Solas/Cassandra banter, the "Old Gods" and the dragons that becomes archdemons might not be a single entity anyway. Flemythal might have been trying to save the dragon's soul only for all we know (and we do know she likes saving dragons):

 

Cassandra: Solas, the dragon Corypheus commands --- could it truly be an Archdemon ? 

Solas: One assumes that if it were, we would be facing a Blight. 
Cassandra: So what is it, then ? A corrupted dragon, simply another darkspawn ? 
Solas: It is connected to Corypheus. Such a relation goes beyond mere control --- it is a bond. 
Cassandra: It makes you wonder if that's all the Archdemons themselves are: pets to beings who no longer exist. 
Solas: I would not go as far as that. This dragon is a replica spawned from a creature who aspires to greatness, no more.

 

Been creeping this thread a while and this post jogged a memory of a crazy theory I thought of a while back. Bring your tinfoil hats!

 

Solas mentions that the eldest of his kind do not die easily; the fact that it took a concerted effort from the Evanuris (who were not known for working well together) to murder her proves the fact that even among them she was exceptionally powerful. Perhaps the best they could do was separate her into multiple pieces - one for each of them, plus the one that got away - effectively diminishing her into something they could seal away if not necessarily kill. Meanwhile, these seven sealed shards of Mythal - the Old Gods - called to the people who were most likely to free them at the time and/or didn't know any better: the Magisters. How does unleashing the Blight and corrupting an ancient elven god dragon thing help Mythal in the long run? I... don't know.  Now I'm really stretching, but perhaps a complete Mythal was able to command the Blight as a tool of some sort (perhaps what she used to kill the titan?), and by killing her and trapping her pieces, she was no longer able to use it, in the same way that Solas awoke and could not unlock his orb. Morrigan does say in Witch Hunt that Flemeth is more tied to the Blight than anyone could guess; as far as I know we still haven't gotten an explanation for that statement. Maybe in order to return to Mythal, the old god needs to be awoken, and the only way to do this is to turn it into an Archdemon, essentially turning the taint into a key? Either way, Solas' passionate outburst against the wardens killing them before they wake would make more sense in light of this, as does Flemeth's interest in the old god soul during the fifth Blight. We also know that Flemeth can potentially exist in more than one place at once, so it's not too much of a stretch to assume there could be more of her.

 

The last (tenuous) piece of evidence is the Draconis constellation of Tevinter; perhaps it was meant to honor the 8th wisp of Mythal that Flemeth encountered.

 

Please feel free to tell me how I'm wrong or expand on this, I'm curious what other people think.

[Tielis]

Been creeping this thread a while and this post jogged a memory of a crazy theory I thought of a while back. Bring your tinfoil hats!

 

Solas mentions that the eldest of his kind do not die easily; the fact that it took a concerted effort from the Evanuris (who were not known for working well together) to murder her proves the fact that even among them she was exceptionally powerful. Perhaps the best they could do was separate her into multiple pieces - one for each of them, plus the one that got away - effectively diminishing her into something they could seal away if not necessarily kill. Meanwhile, these seven sealed shards of Mythal - the Old Gods - called to the people who were most likely to free them at the time and/or didn't know any better: the Magisters. How does unleashing the Blight and corrupting an ancient elven god dragon thing help Mythal in the long run? I... don't know.  Now I'm really stretching, but perhaps a complete Mythal was able to command the Blight as a tool of some sort (perhaps what she used to kill the titan?), and by killing her and trapping her pieces, she was no longer able to use it, in the same way that Solas awoke and could not unlock his orb. Morrigan does say in Witch Hunt that Flemeth is more tied to the Blight than anyone could guess; as far as I know we still haven't gotten an explanation for that statement. Maybe in order to return to Mythal, the old god needs to be awoken, and the only way to do this is to turn it into an Archdemon, essentially turning the taint into a key? Either way, Solas' passionate outburst against the wardens killing them before they wake would make more sense in light of this, as does Flemeth's interest in the old god soul during the fifth Blight. We also know that Flemeth can potentially exist in more than one place at once, so it's not too much of a stretch to assume there could be more of her.

 

The last (tenuous) piece of evidence is the Draconis constellation of Tevinter; perhaps it was meant to honor the 8th wisp of Mythal that Flemeth encountered.

 

Please feel free to tell me how I'm wrong or expand on this, I'm curious what other people think.

 

I think this is it.  Mythal, being clever and already associated with dragons, put pieces of her soul? power? into dragons and then buried them?  Maybe she and her watchdog Solas are the ones who came up with this idea when they realized she might be in danger?

 

My other thought has always been that Mythal IS a dragon.  She does tease Hawke with that very line.

[Aulis Vaara]

My other thought has always been that Mythal IS a dragon. She does tease Hawke with that very line.

I've had the same thought, and it would handily explain why she was able to boss over the other Evanuris.

[Wahed89]

Solas never claimed to have trapped the "old gods" (or the Forgotten Ones like the Dalish claim for that matter which makes their status an unknown, especially with the Andruil's codex about them living in the Void/Abyss before Mythal was slain).

Going by a Solas/Cassandra banter, the "Old Gods" and the dragons that becomes archdemons might not be a single entity anyway. Flemythal might have been trying to save the dragon's soul only for all we know (and we do know she likes saving dragons):

Cassandra: Solas, the dragon Corypheus commands --- could it truly be an Archdemon ?
Solas: One assumes that if it were, we would be facing a Blight.
Cassandra: So what is it, then ? A corrupted dragon, simply another darkspawn ?
Solas: It is connected to Corypheus. Such a relation goes beyond mere control --- it is a bond.
Cassandra: It makes you wonder if that's all the Archdemons themselves are: pets to beings who no longer exist.
Solas: I would not go as far as that. This dragon is a replica spawned from a creature who aspires to greatness, no more.

That is interesting, and the poster above also made me wonder if the old gods were actually just Mythal's broken pieces. But I don't think that's true.

One thing about the Dalish stories about Solas is that they are partly true, or the opposite is true.

So though it is true he locked away the Evanuris, it is unlikely to have been done as the Dalish tell it. The charge that he locked away Mythal also was not true, and in fact what he did was because of what happened to Mythal.

So then you wonder what he did to the Forgotten Ones for that part of the Dalish story to have been put in? Were they locked away with the Titans in the deep roads? Whatever he did or didn't do they essentially ended up on the opposite side of the veil to the Evanuris.

[azarhal]

So then you wonder what he did to the Forgotten Ones for that part of the Dalish story to have been put in? Were they locked away with the Titans in the deep roads? Whatever he did or didn't do they essentially ended up on the opposite side of the veil to the Evanuris.

 

The Forgotten Ones seems to have been quite different from what the Dalish tales says though. They were not an evil pantheon,  they were the proto-Solas or generals in his rebellion, pick your poison:

 

There are no gods. There is only the subject and the object, the actor and the acted upon. Those with will to earn dominance over others gain title not by nature but by deed.

 

I am Geldauran, and I refuse those who would exert will upon me. Let Andruil's bow crack, let June's fire grow cold. Let them build temples and lure the faithful with promises. Their pride will consume them, and I, forgotten, will claim power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery.

 

@ElitheProphet Mythal as an Osiris expy? (see his death myth) That works a lot more than one would think considering he was God of Judgement (and death and rebirth and called the Lord of Silence).

[figment_]

The Forgotten Ones seems to have been quite different from what the Dalish tales says though. They were not an evil pantheon,  they were the proto-Solas or generals in his rebellion, pick your poison:

 

There are no gods. There is only the subject and the object, the actor and the acted upon. Those with will to earn dominance over others gain title not by nature but by deed.

 

I am Geldauran, and I refuse those who would exert will upon me. Let Andruil's bow crack, let June's fire grow cold. Let them build temples and lure the faithful with promises. Their pride will consume them, and I, forgotten, will claim power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery.

 

@ElitheProphet Mythal as an Osiris expy? (see his death myth) That works a lot more than one would think considering he was God of Judgement (and death and rebirth and called the Lord of Silence).

I've been having trouble reconciling that codex entry since I found it in my own game, with whatever other (sparse as it may be) information we have about the Forgotten Ones. For example, the literal translation of their names, as examined by FenxShiral in

Project Elvhen: Expanding the Elvhen Language:

 

THE FORGOTTEN ONES

Geldauran = Thing of terror, hatred and malice

Geal (terror) + daur (malice, poison, hatred) + rahn (thing)

Anaris = That which is forever

Annar (year) + is (innumerable)

Daern'thal = That which brings nightmares / That which the kin dreams of little

Da (little) + era (dream) + en (many) + lethal (kin)

 

http://archiveofouro...hapters/7826942

[Shari'El]

 

I've been having trouble reconciling that codex entry since I found it in my own game, with whatever other (sparse as it may be) information we have about the Forgotten Ones. For example, the literal translation of their names, as examined by FenxShiral in

Project Elvhen: Expanding the Elvhen Language:

 

THE FORGOTTEN ONES

Geldauran = Thing of terror, hatred and malice

Anaris = That which is forever

Geal (terror) + daur (malice, poison, hatred) + rahn (thing)

Annar (year) + is (innumerable)

Daern'thal = That which brings nightmares / That which the kin dreams of little

Da (little) + era (dream) + en (many) + lethal (kin)

 

http://archiveofouro...hapters/7826942

 

 

I'm not entirely certain elven works like that, yes, annar is 'year' but we didn't get any confirmation that letters drop when we attach suffixes to words.

I understand Project Elvhen is a big thing (and a lot of effort was put into it), but I feel like the author makes a couple of logic leaps while trying to interpret and attach logic to DA elvish. There are also things I don't agree with, like "da'len" meaning "male person" (it's "little child"), or Solas saying "ar lath ma vhenan" means "I love you, you are my home" (it means "I love you, [my] heart").

 

Anaris is used as a word, we know that from Trespasser, what prevents it from being an actual word?

"Is" being innumerable is something the author deducted from "Var Bellanaris", I'm not entirely certain how.

Anaris exists in bellanaris (which means eternity), "bel" is many, annar is "year" but that doesn't mean "anaris" as a word means "years" (and that "bellanaris" is just literally "many years"), just like 'then" is awake/alert and "theneras" is dream, "elgar" is spirit and "elgara" is sun.

Asha'belannar is how the elves call Flemeth, it is literally translated to "woman many year" (not years) but means "The Woman of Many Years", it's the "bel" that makes the word "annar" turn plural.

To me it seems like words were inspired by others, like "elgara" inspired by Elgar'nan, and "bellanaris" inspired by belannar.

 

As for Geldauran, where does it say "geal" is terror? Or that "rahn" is thing?

Perhaps these terms were derived from other existing words (which I can't find) but it's unreliable, i.e - banal'ras is shadow, "banal" is nothing/no, "ras" is unknown, we could conclude ras means have come from "iras" (which means "where") so it would be literally "where nothing" but we don't have anything to support this.