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(Major Spoilers, Trespasser Edit) Ancient Accumulated Lore, Theories & Discussions 2.0


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#626
FernRain

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Eleni Zinovia: Stone they made me and stone I am, eternal and unfeeling. And I shall endure 'til the Maker returns to light their fires again.

 

Parallels to Dwarves and the mysterious "sun"?

 

On a different note: "Here lies the abyss, the well of all souls. From these emerald waters doth life begin anew".

Solas says after his spirit friend dies that "there are stirrings of energy in the void, someday something new may grow there".

 

So that part of the canticle seems to be true. The void/abyss brings life? ....Where do we even start..



#627
Elista

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Maybe the abyss is a place where it is very hard for a soul to remember his nature and identity, so the soul becomes pure consciouness and can be drawned to a new body born in the physical world ? We know the Avvar have ways to make a soul come back among them. And some souls may stay in the Fade if they have a purpose that tie them to their identity ? I wonder if the Justinia we saw in the Fade was her soul turned into a spirit of faith, because of a high purpose to help people and a strong faith.
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#628
FernRain

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Waters of the fade = lyrium? According to the origins codex on lyrium.

 

Excuse the brief post, I can't format while using this tablet >_>.



#629
azarhal

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Waters of the fade = lyrium? According to the origins codex on lyrium.

 

Excuse the brief post, I can't format while using this tablet >_>.

 

Either the devs are using the same allegory for different things or they are the same thing (less or more). If they are the same thing then:

 

Void = Abyss = WatersOfTheFades = (liquid) Lyrium

 

Of course, the Void/Abyss might just be for the Red Lyrium ocean inside a/the blighted Titan.


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#630
Shari'El

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Waters of the fade = lyrium? According to the origins codex on lyrium.

 

Excuse the brief post, I can't format while using this tablet >_>.

 

You know, I've been thinking about how lyrium connects to the Fade as well.

We know lyrium is the titan's blood, we also know that it lets non-dreamer mages explore the Fade, it also helps them restore their mana reserves (but at a price, since it creates a mana imbalance).

Why? Does lyrium have any connection to the Fade? Like titans, connected to the Fade, but dwarves are not since they are connected to the titans?

We can see lyrium veins in the Fade, is that because lyrium is just another part of reality (and thus Fade-lyrium is just a reflection) or is there a more profound reason to it?

 

I used to think lyrium is a physical manifestation of the Fade (before the Descent DLC) and now I wonder whether it's more complex than just blood of titans. What if the lyrium is magic, but magic of the waking world and the essence of the Fade is the magic of the dream world, and they share a connection, maintaining some sort of balance. The grounding properties of lyrium is what allows mages to explore the Fade (instead of being swept by its' current into a regular dream), what severs the Tranquil from the Fade and gives Templars the ability to dispel spells. It reinforces reality.

 

Justice says lyrium doesn't sing in the Fade, and yet Cole spoke about the time before the Veil, when everything sang the same, implying there was some sort of harmony before the Veil's creation. It also seems spirits and those touched by spirits are immune to lyrium's "toxicity", Justice wore the lyrium ring without any adverse affects and the seekers are immune to red lyrium (how much of their immunity is to lyrium and how much is to taint is something we can only contemplate over). I wonder what would've happened to post-possession Pharamond if he were to try enchantment or general handling of lyrium. He was a mage who was branded by lyrium and then touched by a demon, it is a similar process to what a Seeker goes through to gain their powers, but we don't know if it changed him (besides affecting his ability to control his feelings). I am also curious what would've happened if a spirit (of faith/compassion/etc.) was the one to approach him instead of a demon.

 

Another source of magic in Thedas is blood, according to Solas general use of blood magic makes it harder to enter the Fade, unlike lyrium (one of the side effects of mana imbalance from lyrium is lucid dreaming). What does that say about the connection between blood and the Fade? It was said the Old Gods taught humans how to draw magic from blood, which is interesting since the magisters were dreamers (does it mean they used lyrium to counteract the effects of blood magic?) and that blood magic can be taught from demons and allows the user to tear the Veil completely. We also know that a lot of blood shed weakens the veil. Between blood and taint there is a connection as well, blood magic can cleanse the taint.

 

To be honest, trying to make sense of it all fries my brain, I tried to describe the connections in a diagram but there are so many uncertainties:

xXhuv2j.jpg

 

The arrow I drew from blood -> Fade was the result of this logic:

What is the Veil? We know it's a vibration that repels the Fade but what kind of magic is it? We know Solas didn't practice blood magic, so is it lyrium-based magic or is it Fade magic? While lyrium is a good contestant, and vibrations do make me think about the lyrium's song I cannot imagine how its' grounding properties work with how abstract the Veil is. Also, the magic stored in Solas' orb, the one which bestowed the anchor upon the Inquisitor's hand and allows it to walk the Fade in a safe manner? Green magic. The anchor is also what allows the Inquisitor to study the rift mage specialization with ease, which in turn, gives the Inquisitor the ability to draw raw magic essence from the Fade.

 

Ugh, I'm so confused.


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#631
Tielis

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Maybe the abyss is a place where it is very hard for a soul to remember his nature and identity, so the soul becomes pure consciouness and can be drawned to a new body born in the physical world ? We know the Avvar have ways to make a soul come back among them. And some souls may stay in the Fade if they have a purpose that tie them to their identity ? I wonder if the Justinia we saw in the Fade was her soul turned into a spirit of faith, because of a high purpose to help people and a strong faith.

 

If this is the case, then Sera being Andruil isn't such a far-fetched idea.  (Don't hurt me for bringing it up, please.)



#632
FernRain

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Thanks for making that diagram, my brain can understand pictures better than words :lol:. It's also 6 a.m.. I better go to sleep :ph34r:.



#633
Elista

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Thanks Shari'el, it helps to see the whole picture even if we don't understand yet what's going on. Need to think out of the box !

Tielis, I'm on that train, you can totally bring it up !

Thinking about the colors... when Solas takes Mythal's power or whatever, it's blue. His eyes glowing are blue. Flemeth taking the OGS : blue too ? Anders possessed : blue. Wynne's healing magic : blue. Blue is not only associated with lyrium but also with spirits/souls ? But in the Fade everything looks green. I need to think about it.
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#634
azarhal

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Another source of magic in Thedas is blood, according to Solas general use of blood magic makes it harder to enter the Fade

 

That comment from Solas always sounded strange to me, it goes against what has been said about blood magic and what the player experienced since DAO. 

 

Avernus is a 100+ years old blood mage who tries to get closer to the Black City in his sleep still.

Jowan can use a blood magic ritual in Redcliff to send a party mage to the Fade.

In the Broken Circle quest, the Sloth demon drag everyone's mind into the Fade.

The crazy mages in Kirkwall used blood magic to send templar in the Fade so a demon could possess them.

Blood magic weaken the Fade and make it easier to summons demons (we have multiple example of that) and it was apparently used by Cory and friends to enter the Black City physically.

 

All the time blood magic is shown in games, it is always about making it easier to bring something into the Fade or into the physical world. All that because it weaken the Veil. So either Solas was lying or he was talking pre-Veil and isn't about to start now because he plan to tear it down.

 

Also, nice graphic!


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#635
llandwynwyn

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I've been thinking about this codex, the author talks about how the meaning of some words were lost to time, while associating it to the dwarves (durgen'lin from durgen'len) in the text. But that's not the only piece there that has been lost.

Spoiler


Ir sa tel'nal,
[I am empty, filled with nothing(?),]
Mythal las ma theneras.
[Mythal gives you dreams.]
Ir san'a emma.
[It fills you, within you(?),]
Him solas evanuris.
[Making our leaders proud.]
Da'durgen'lin,
[My little stones,]
Banal malas elgara.
[Never yours the sun.]
Bellanaris, bellanaris.
[Forever, forever.]

Is this implying Mythal was the one that made Solas an Evanuris, maybe through his actions in the Titan's fall since the events here are linked? We know he was a spirit, that she bound him, that he was a friend/follower/guard to her.

#636
Shari'El

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That comment from Solas always sounded strange to me, it goes against what has been said about blood magic and what the player experienced since DAO. 

 

Avernus is a 100+ years old blood mage who tries to get closer to the Black City in his sleep still.

Jowan can use a blood magic ritual in Redcliff to send a party mage to the Fade.

In the Broken Circle quest, the Sloth demon drag everyone's mind into the Fade.

The crazy mages in Kirkwall used blood magic to send templar in the Fade so a demon could possess them.

Blood magic weaken the Fade and make it easier to summons demons (we have multiple example of that) and it was apparently used by Cory and friends to enter the Black City physically.

 

All the time blood magic is shown in games, it is always about making it easier to bring something into the Fade or into the physical world. All that because it weaken the Veil. So either Solas was lying or he was talking pre-Veil and isn't about to start now because he plan to tear it down.

 

Also, nice graphic!

 

With enough magic you can send people to the Fade, methinks, no matter which type (now I'm wondering if you can enter the Fade with taint magic :lol:). I tend to believe Solas was speaking about himself as a Dreamer and whatever allows people like him to be able to be aware while dreaming, he does not need to do anything special to explore the Fade after all (Felassan used herbs, but we know you can enter the Fade without them). I'd assume that it messes somehow with ones' spirit or connection to the Fade, perhaps because it's a form of magic that doesn't draw at all from the Fade (thus distancing the person from the Fade, like dwarves lose their stone-sense over time). Solas is a Fade-obsessed nerd, the idea of not being able to slip into the Fade with ease (while dreaming) probably makes the potential in blood magic seem worthless to him :rolleyes: .


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#637
FrankWisdom

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What is the Veil? We know it's a vibration that repels the Fade but what kind of magic is it?

 

 

Elvhen magic, which is considered "Fade Magic". The anchor is the result of the Evlhen Foci which was charged with Elvhen magic.

 

Abelas states the mark we bare radiates a magic which is "familiar" to him. This is a reference to the Elvhen Foci.

 

To reinforce the veil, we use "ELvhen Artifacts" found across Thedas which glow green, the biggest piece of evidence that supports the magic used in its creation, Elvhen magic.

 

But that's just my opinion based on the info found in the game.



#638
myahele

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I wonder what Mythal's Well of Sorrows is made of? If we go by chantry lore emerald waters makes up the well of souls or something like that and that reminds me of when you walk in her well, it shimmers with green and seems to be composed of the souls/consciousness of her previous Priests + whatever that thing was that sprang up:

 

hqdefault.jpg

 

In either case, Mythal's legend of her springing up from the world's tear is more or less true


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#639
Elista

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And the word "abyss" makes sense if we talk of a well/an ocean of souls. Besides, in the quest "Here lies the abyss" there is a kind of ocean in the Fade. Your companions even comment about it. Maybe, if you go deep enough in the ocean, beyond the abyss, there is less and less light and dreams, until you find the darkness of the Void, the nothingness ? Where the Sun is supposed to be trapped since his defeat against Elgar'nan. Where Andruil found the material for her weapons and armor (darkness, void and heat). Sounds like Thedas' hells... I understand why it would be dangerous for gods and mortals to linger into the abyss if this place lets you forget your nature and purpose. And why it would be a good place to hide if you are strong enough to survive there and you want to prepare a war against the Evanuris, like the other Forgotten Ones. But I wonder how they could endure there while the Evanuris couldn't. Was it because of a special knowledge, the one that Mythal "stole" from Andruil so she can never return there ?

#640
FernRain

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An air tank and scuba set? :P.

 

Assuming the waters of creation (void/abyss) are lyrium, that would work with the taint hanging around. It sounds like the sun is either the source of the taint or became tainted when it went into the void. The void had to get tainted somehow, unless it always had been.



#641
azarhal

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I don't think the Void got tainted. 

 

Going by the vague information we have, the Void is where dead spirits/souls go* and represent the absence of will/self. Thinking about it, the Void might be the Fade version and the Abyss the physical version of the same thing. The Abyss would be the absence of life (it's dead Jim). The Taint is just an extension of both: it destroy life via the blight and transform entities into ghouls (mindless monsters) that it infect. 

 

 

 

*that seems to be common in-setting knowledge going by the Chantry "to the Void" expression and how they believe the not worthy's souls go there upon physical death.


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#642
myahele

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With the revelation of Descent. I do wonder if the Thedas is based on the Hollow Earth Theory? Just exclude space ships, lol ... but then again The Wellspring did give off very futuristic/ sci-fi fibes; nearly indistinguishable from some Mass Effect locations.

 

Anyways, I don't know too much about the real life hollow earth theory, but from my brief search for a picture I discovered that lizard men are mentioned to live beneath the Earth and the Scaled Ones are described as lizard-like and then there's those lizard men murals we see Elvhen ruins.

 

agarthamap.jpg


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#643
Qun00

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It's easy to see how elven gods like Elgar'nan and Andruil would match Solas' description of the Evanuris.

But what about those that represent really tame stuff like June, Sylaise and Ghilanain?

"All weep under the tyranny of Sylaise, goddess of healing herbs and singing...!!"

#644
myahele

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Ghilia'nain isn't really to be trifled with/underestimated. As a "regular" elf she was able to create creatures that threatened the Evanuris lands to the point that she was thought to be useful enough as an ally. In fact, there's a codex entry of her "experiment" in trespasser and it seems as if she made creatures for battle and made it so that they could be mass produced with "lesser materials" She could have very well have created Griffons, Aravels, and maybe giants.

 

Sylaise ... not too sure what she contributed. Since she's related to childbirth she may have perfected and taught them how to make sexually reproduce .... after all there's a theory going one that Spirits turned flesh (like Cole)are what the "1st of the elvhen" were. If that's the case then somebody needed to teach them how to reproduce. Think of it like teaching Cole to not only have sex, but to reproduce.Eh, it's just a theory I came up with right now, so nothing to truly consider.



#645
Qun00

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Yeah, but... what is their potential for eeeeevil?

#646
sniper_arrow

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Ghilia'nain isn't really to be trifled with/underestimated. As a "regular" elf she was able to create creatures that threatened the Evanuris lands to the point that she was thought to be useful enough as an ally. In fact, there's a codex entry of her "experiment" in trespasser and it seems as if she made creatures for battle and made it so that they could be mass produced with "lesser materials" She could have very well have created Griffons, Aravels, and maybe giants.

 

Sylaise ... not too sure what she contributed. Since she's related to childbirth she may have perfected and taught them how to make sexually reproduce .... after all there's a theory going one that Spirits turned flesh (like Cole)are what the "1st of the elvhen" were. If that's the case then somebody needed to teach them how to reproduce. Think of it like teaching Cole to not only have sex, but to reproduce.Eh, it's just a theory I came up with right now, so nothing to truly consider.

 

Would Ghilia'nain (honestly I would prefer to call her Ghilly at this point for easier spelling) also had a hand in creating the Qunari? At this point, there have been speculations that the Qunari were created by either early Tevinter or Ghilly.



#647
sniper_arrow

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Yeah, but... what is their potential for eeeeevil?

 

Can't say for June and Sylaise, but you can check this thread I created for more information: http://forum.bioware...e-and-sylaise/ 

 

As for Ghilla'nain, this Youtube video theorizes her involvement: https://www.youtube....h?v=roCk-v0axTE



#648
myahele

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Yeah, but... what is their potential for eeeeevil?

I don't know about Evil, but according to Solas, the Evanuris banded together to murder Mythal and then from there they did whatever they wanted to do

 

 

Would Ghilia'nain (honestly I would prefer to call her Ghilly at this point for easier spelling) also had a hand in creating the Qunari? At this point, there have been speculations that the Qunari were created by either early Tevinter or Ghilly.

 

 

I would not be too surprised if the Kossith (proto Qunari) were one of her experiments. Either Qunari are Ancient Elvhen experiments or Tevinter. Either way, I don't think they're a "naturally occuring" race



#649
azarhal

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Ghilan'nain is basically a mad scientist, she's basically the Frankenstein of the setting, just with more successes.

Sylaise seems to have a very large ego going by the praise of her followers.

We barely know anything about June outside of him having a forge, crafting things and doing favors for Sylaise.

 

I also think that Solas is biased point of view on the matter. It is possible not all of them were involved in Mythal's death, he just overreacted and locked everyone up because it was more convenient that way and assured freedom for all. Also, never forget that Solas says two lies to Cassandra the first time you meet him. Neither Abelas or Flemythal told use who killed her. We only have his word for it and he might not be telling the whole truth because it is convenient if the Inquisitor believes all of them are evil and should be destroyed.


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#650
sniper_arrow

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Ghilan'nain is basically a mad scientist, she's basically the Frankenstein of the setting, just with more successes.

Sylaise seems to have a very large ego going by the praise of her followers.

We barely know anything about June outside of him having a forge, crafting things and doing favors for Sylaise.

 

I also think that Solas is biased point of view on the matter. It is possible not all of them were involved in Mythal's death, he just overreacted and locked everyone up because it was more convenient that way and assured freedom for all. Also, never forget that Solas says two lies to Cassandra the first time you meet him. Neither Abelas or Flemythal told use who killed her. We only have his word for it and he might not be telling the whole truth because it is convenient if the Inquisitor believes all of them are evil and should be destroyed.

 

I've had this thought regarding this for a while on Solas's views on Mythal's murder. But, at the same time, I believe that all of the gods were involved. We don't know the exact details about it (other than the whole Titan thing).


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