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[Elista]

Also weird image of an elf coming out of a flower from the DA artbook.

Spoiler

I'm bringing this picture back because I was wandering in the Exalted Plain when I suddenly stopped in front of this :



The flower with fire may very well be Embrium. What do we know about it ? Embrium has healings properties.

Spoiler

"Embriums are flowers from the orchid family. Its therapeutic qualities were actually discovered because of the embrium's exceptional beauty.
The beloved daughter of Lord Ignace Poulenc of Orlais fell victim to a terrible sickness of the lungs, which her healers were unable to cure. Thinking the girl would soon perish, her parents surrounded her bed with brightly colored flowers, hoping that they would bring some warmth and cheer in her last days. Oddly enough, the girl began to recover from the illness, and grew stronger each day. Her parents were baffled, but overjoyed. The healers eventually learned that the fragrance of one of the flowers eased the child's breathing. The flower was an embrium, and later became known as the Salubrious Embrium.

The other variant that has certain magical properties is known as Dark Embrium.

—An excerpt from The Botanical Compendium by Ines Arancia, botanist
—From Codex entry: Embrium"

Also, Embrium sounds a bit like... embryo... Oo

These flowers were important. Foutains of youth ? Cocoons for spirits coming to a physical form ? Why does the elf looks like smoke and ashes if she is alive ? Did Elves use to burn their deads (from war, murder, etc) so their soul could go into a new body thanks to these flowers ? Did the flower feast on the blood and soul through its inner fire, and make them reborn like a phoenix ?

I have done a bit of research about orchids and mythology. (Embrium is an orchid) It is related to sexuality and fertility. But I am more curious about the fire and life connection and I wanted to learn more about the phoenix myth. Guess what ?

- Phoenix is often related to the sun.
- Phoenix has peacock feathers.
- Phoenix is supposed to regenerate every 1400 years. (The magisters found the Black City almost 1400 years ago, says Dorian... I've checked this and the calendars rather suggest 1300 but it is still close)
- Phoenix is supposed to have striking yellow eyes (golden eyes everywhere...)
- The burnt phoenix lets an egg in the ashes of his death fire, from which he is reborn.

So now I believe the mysterious birds on the new picture with the dragon slayed to be phoenixes, and the egg in the vines to be a symbol of resurrection through fire.

Any thoughts ?

[Reznore57]

The phoenix thing is interesting although I have trouble picturing an actual phoenix in the story.Too many things!

 

Although I guess the whole rebirth thing could work.Thing is what died?

The ancient elves were killable , although Solas noticed the first ones were special and quite resistant.

 

Like I said I find the whole thing fascinating , the flowers/vines , the sun , the killing of Titans , and now the Egg!

But there's so many unknown it's getting hard to wrap my head around it all.

 

Anyway to add on to the pile of really weird stuff happening underground.From the Calling page198 /199.

It's Maric speaking after seeing some stuff underground:

                                                     

"Here lies the abyss the well of all souls.From these emerald waters doth life begin anew"(...) It's from the Chant of Light.(...)Oh it's where Andraste goes to speak to the Maker for the first time.It's where she convinces him to forgive mankind.It was supposed to be this beautiful temple deep beneath the earth surrounded by emerald water."

 

                                                       

 

I'm not sure it's still part of the lore and not a case of Oh Marric didn't knew his religious history very well.But yeah at one point in time the story might have been Andraste went to an underground temple to hear the Maker , a temple surrounded by emerald water , supposed to be the "well of all souls".

Now technically speaking the well of all souls (except dwarves ) and emerald water sounds like the fade.

So yeah I'm not sure what was supposed to be going on.

[FernRain]

That embrium does look like that flower. What's dark embrium?

 

..

 

Dagna was going on about fiery flowers, actually! Well, drawing them in the war table mission "the arcanist and the fade".

 

The sun and the land.. in the tale they met and gave birth to life. Plants need the same. The earth is filled with lyrium, the Elves wanted the earth to bloom, lyrium is tended to like a garden by Imshael. The Dwarves were oppressed by the sun and Mythal told them it would never be theirs. The sun might've been corrupted in the void. The void flower might've been a dark embrium. Void Elves? Solas said evanuris wanted ultimate power.

 

Excuse the thought vomit there. I had a bunch of ideas all at once!

 

And I thought phoenixes may have played a role.

 

Hypothetically.. what's wrong with being affected by the void? I suppose they say Android(Autocorrect!) Andruil went mad but to what end? I'm getting into weird 'madness is subjective / relative' territory .
 

[LatteRene]

Embrium is also required to make a templar's philter if you choose that specialization. Anything related to templars screams "magical significance" to me.

[FernRain]

What is a philter? I saw that but thought maybe it was used as ink to make the text.

[LatteRene]

The philter is everything a Templar needs to make his draft of lyrium. Cullen is seen hunched over or tossing his in the Perserverence quest line.

[sniper_arrow]

Recently, I've been scouring in the DA Reddit thread and I noticed that there was theory that Justice is Elgar'nan. I didn't buy it, but I would like to know everyone's thoughts on this matter.

[myahele]

Recently, I've been scouring in the DA Reddit thread and I noticed that there was theory that Justice is Elgar'nan. I didn't buy it, but I would like to know everyone's thoughts on this matter.

Doubtful since non-Anders Justice was pretty calm compared to the kill-happy Elgar'nan

[Elista]

Besides, I'm not sure Elgar'nan would care at all about human mages. He was probably a bloody tyrant with thousands of slaves so... and he is supposed to be locked away wih the other Evanuris. It's hard to say if some Evanuris or Forgotten Ones escaped their trap, but it seems unlikely. Except Andruil of course^^ (don't throw stones at me lol). Since I have read that the the Antivan Crows themselves were astonished by Sera's abilities without any proper teacher, I am more and more able to believe in the Sera/Andruil theory.

Edit : just wanted to add some piece of real-world lore that can be tied to DA lore, about the hare, favourite of Andruil.

- there is a chinese myth about a hare sacrificing himself into the fire to honor a god. Again, the fire related with sacrifice...
- there is another chinese myth about a rabbit living on the moon and making elixirs of immortality with herbs, he is the companion of the moon goddess.
- it is known that you can see a kind of rabbit if you look at the markings of the moon... just like you can see a bunny (remember what Cullen said at the war table ?) in Lake Calenhad.

Spoiler

So... could Thedas be our moon ? Who is the Moon in the elven pantheon ? Sylaise (Andruil claims to be sister of the moon) ? And what's going on with Lake Calenhad ? (We know its waters are special, Calenhad had a silver armor made from these waters by the mages).

[Aulis Vaara]

Recently, I've been scouring in the DA Reddit thread and I noticed that there was theory that Justice is Elgar'nan. I didn't buy it, but I would like to know everyone's thoughts on this matter.

The only link we have between Elgar'nan and Justice is that the Dalish call him the god of Vengeance, but we already know Mythal is Justice/Vengeance and Elgar'nan 's appellation makes sense when you realize he was (sometimes?) called upon to execute Mythal's Vengeance.

Elgar'nan seems more like Valor/Rage to me.

[FernRain]

https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/3pwsxq/spoilers_all_another_attempt_to_translate_what/

I saw on reddit someone theorizing Solas as the sun (metaphorically in the fade, mosaics and myths).

 

Hypothetically, this could mean all sorts of things. All sorts.

• Solas becoming jealous of the physical manifestations of the elves after creating them with help from the land,
• Elgar'nan bringing him down into the void and possibly corrupting him / his nature,
• Mythal soothing Elgar'nan so he would release him,
• Solas being important to the black city (trespasser mosaic),
• Elgar'nan is his first child of the physical world.

It's pretty far out, but interesting to think on. What would that mean for the future? He would have to do something to himself to release the evanuris. Maybe he had something to do with the Maker (sun) cults that wanted to destroy the veil and world by fire.

[Heimdall]

The phoenix thing is interesting although I have trouble picturing an actual phoenix in the story.Too many things!

We actually already have Phoenixes in DA. Remember those feathered firebreathing velociraptors in the Western Approach?

[Abelis]

https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/3pwsxq/spoilers_all_another_attempt_to_translate_what/

I saw on reddit someone theorizing Solas as the sun (metaphorically in the fade, mosaics and myths).

 

Hypothetically, this could mean all sorts of things. All sorts.

• Solas becoming jealous of the physical manifestations of the elves after creating them with help from the land,
• Elgar'nan bringing him down into the void and possibly corrupting him / his nature,
• Mythal soothing Elgar'nan so he would release him,
• Solas being important to the black city (trespasser mosaic),
• Elgar'nan is his first child of the physical world.

It's pretty far out, but interesting to think on. What would that mean for the future? He would have to do something to himself to release the evanuris. Maybe he had something to do with the Maker (sun) cults that wanted to destroy the veil and world by fire.

 

Well, Sol in latin means Sun but it would be too obvious to name him that way, wouldn't it?

Interesting, a bit far, but interesting.

[sniper_arrow]

https://www.reddit.com/r/dragonage/comments/3pwsxq/spoilers_all_another_attempt_to_translate_what/

I saw on reddit someone theorizing Solas as the sun (metaphorically in the fade, mosaics and myths).

 

Hypothetically, this could mean all sorts of things. All sorts.

• Solas becoming jealous of the physical manifestations of the elves after creating them with help from the land,
• Elgar'nan bringing him down into the void and possibly corrupting him / his nature,
• Mythal soothing Elgar'nan so he would release him,
• Solas being important to the black city (trespasser mosaic),
• Elgar'nan is his first child of the physical world.

It's pretty far out, but interesting to think on. What would that mean for the future? He would have to do something to himself to release the evanuris. Maybe he had something to do with the Maker (sun) cults that wanted to destroy the veil and world by fire.

 

 

It may explain the statues of Fen'Harel in locations like the Temple of Dirthamen.  

[FernRain]

It may explain the statues of Fen'Harel in locations like the Temple of Dirthamen.  

 

How so? I don't remember seeing any sun symbolism there.

[Elista]

I don't think he is the Sun, even if he likes to play with fire^^. He is the "big bad wolf", a trickster, his symbols should be more dark and discreet like the moon, the shadows... I see the Sun as a leader and a creator more than a trickster. The Sun is ultimate power over life and death, the light that everybody can see, so bright you can't look at it too long. And it is not "ethereal", its physical aspect is important. Hard to picture Solas in this role. I would rather see him as a spirit of wisdom or research. But who knows ?

[ABC]

I just went through the first 12 pages of the thread (will continue reading later on) but I just wanted to write down my thoughts before I forget them. So sorry if I bring up already asked and refuted stuff.

 

In Fade part of "Here lies the abyss" we meet Divine Justinia, whose nature was never clarified, guiding Inquisitor and generally acting very... compasionate. Extraordinarily convenient, that a powerful, helpful spirit is waiting in Nightmare's lair ready to help while Nighmare is... busy putting in it's many, many contact lenses?

 

Now, we know that Nighmare is (most probably) a corrupted spirit of compassion (as evidenced with it's convo with Cole) AND that spirits tend to have dual nature (their purpose and i'ts corruption). We know nature of the spirits seems to be very unstable and prone to switching, even in moment's notice, but could it be possible that the two could coexist at the same time? That the Justinia was compassion, other/spirit side of Nightmare, actually guiding it's own defeat, in a sort of schizophrenic fashion. Currently I am unaware of evidence contradicting this theory, so please correct me. Perhaps such duality can be manifested (and clearly defined) only with the very powerful entities that fulfill certain degree of "purpose", antithesis appears- to balance itself out?

 

At the same time, since and if Evanuris were spirits, perhaps Forgotten Ones were not generals, but the other, spiritual/demony side of Evanuris itself, that they somehow banished since it was interfering with their plans and purpose. Perhaps even not all of Evanuris did that, for example- maybe it never happened with the "twins" (Falondin and Dirthamen if I remeber correctly, being spirit/demon pair of a same being?). Perhaps even the first battle between the Elgarnan and "the Sun" the battle in question was not literal, but the battle of identity, purpose. And as it seems, the darkness prevailed, Elgarnan sure seems like an aXXhole.

 

It would explain much more easily the convenient antithetical and numerical balance to Evanuris, if such has to exist (if I remeber, balance is important motive, right?). It's a bit suspicious that Evanuris would allow their generals to become their equals, and that said generals would all suddenly turn on them in unison (alhough not impossible, of course). At the same time, this duality could be calculated into the whole body/spirit sundering of Evanuris with the Veil. So while Evanuris sleep beyond eluvians somewhere, their "shadow" versions had better position to plot and act from the Void (or from wherever) posing as Old Gods. In any case, while Evanuris "forgot" the other part of itself, it looks like this duality should manifest itself in spirit nature of Evanuris.

 

My lore is far from perfect and I would love to hear more opinions on this. Please dicsuss.

[Hydwn]

So... could Thedas be our moon ? Who is the Moon in the elven pantheon ? Sylaise (Andruil claims to be sister of the moon) ? And what's going on with Lake Calenhad ? (We know its waters are special, Calenhad had a silver armor made from these waters by the mages).

 

Mythal is actually associated with the moon in the Elven pantheon, because she made it

 

Lake Calenhad was the traditional place of Razikale, the Tevinter old god of mysteries.  She's the next archdemon scheduled to rise, unless someone does something permanent about the blights.

 

Also, with all this talk of the moon, I wonder has anyone on the dev team given a final answer about the number of moons Thedas has?  Earlier codices specified two moons (Luna and Satina), and recent codices have been careful to word themselves in a way that could be interpreted either way.  The art department has only ever drawn one full moon in DA2 and DAI, which makes me think Hawke and the Inquisitor are were-heroes

[Elista]

 
Now, we know that Nighmare is (most probably) a corrupted spirit of compassion (as evidenced with it's convo with Cole) AND that spirits tend to have dual nature (their purpose and i'ts corruption). We know nature of the spirits seems to be very unstable and prone to switching, even in moment's notice, but could it be possible that the two could coexist at the same time? That the Justinia was compassion, other/spirit side of Nightmare, actually guiding it's own defeat, in a sort of schizophrenic fashion. Currently I am unaware of evidence contradicting this theory, so please correct me. Perhaps such duality can be manifested (and clearly defined) only with the very powerful entities that fulfill certain degree of "purpose", antithesis appears- to balance itself out?
 
At the same time, since and if Evanuris were spirits, perhaps Forgotten Ones were not generals, but the other, spiritual/demony side of Evanuris itself, that they somehow banished since it was interfering with their plans and purpose. Perhaps even not all of Evanuris did that, for example- maybe it never happened with the "twins" (Falondin and Dirthamen if I remeber correctly, being spirit/demon pair of a same being?). Perhaps even the first battle between the Elgarnan and "the Sun" the battle in question was not literal, but the battle of identity, purpose. And as it seems, the darkness prevailed, Elgarnan sure seems like an aXXhole.
 
It would explain much more easily the convenient antithetical and numerical balance to Evanuris, if such has to exist (if I remeber, balance is important motive, right?). It's a bit suspicious that Evanuris would allow their generals to become their equals, and that said generals would all suddenly turn on them in unison (alhough not impossible, of course). At the same time, this duality could be calculated into the whole body/spirit sundering of Evanuris with the Veil. So while Evanuris sleep beyond eluvians somewhere, their "shadow" versions had better position to plot and act from the Void (or from wherever) posing as Old Gods. In any case, while Evanuris "forgot" the other part of itself, it looks like this duality should manifest itself in spirit nature of Evanuris.
 
My lore is far from perfect and I would love to hear more opinions on this. Please dicsuss.

That's interesting ! It reminds me of the Lady of the Forest and Witherfang, both were parts of the same spirit of the forest. I like this idea. I think that before the Veil, maybe the duality was less extreme, there was a kind of natural balance. Andruil could be the wild strenght of the forest, Sylaise the sweet side (soft heat of the firecamp made with wood, healing herbs...), for example, neither being a true demon. Or maybe as you say the Forgotten ones were the dark counterparts. But Geldauran was more like a rebel/terrorist I think ? Or was he the dark side of a god of war/victory like Hakkon ?

The white wolf and the dark wolf appearing in the game and Solas tarot cards, support your theory I bet. One seems soft and calm, the other full of pride and threatening.

[FernRain]

Hydwn: Lake Calenhad was the traditional place of Razikale,

 

Interesting, didn't know that.

 

And the missing moon is suspicious. There is a coded message in DA:2 in the Black Emporium that says, "Two shadowed spheres, an eclipse as Fen'harel stirred". And Mythal created a moon (or the moon) from 'glowing earth', which sounds like lyrium to me. Though it is a Dalish tale *mumbles*.

[Hydwn]

 

Hydwn: Lake Calenhad was the traditional place of Razikale,

 

Interesting, didn't know that.

 

And the missing moon is suspicious. There is a coded message in DA:2 in the Black Emporium that says, "Two shadowed spheres, an eclipse as Fen'harel stirred". And Mythal created a moon (or the moon) from 'glowing earth', which sounds like lyrium to me. Though it is a Dalish tale *mumbles*.

 

 

I was quoting from memory there.  I just looked up the exact quote, from the "Lake Calenhad" codex in DAO:

 

The Tevinters believed that the waters of Lake Calenhad were blessed by Razikale, god of mysteries, and that those who drank from them were granted special insights. This was why they built the great tower on an island in the middle of the lake, hoping the powers of the lake would aid their magical research.

 

 

So Tevinter built it.  

 

I wonder if that had anything to do with why the staute of Eleni Zinovia was there.  World of Thedas 2 had a lot to say about her - she was the mother of Archon Hessarian (of Chant of Light fame) and the only person we know who successfully predicted the future.  At some point the statue was moved from Tevinter.  

 

Razikale is also next of the old gods in line to become an archdemon.  Her magister who went with Corypheus into the Fade was known as the Augur.

 

I like the idea of a lyrium moon, but then you'd think it might be bright enough to be seen easily in any sky...?

[Shari'El]

I like the idea of a lyrium moon, but then you'd think it might be bright enough to be seen easily in any sky...?

 

If it reflect the light of the sun it definitely will, it just depends on where the moon is placed.

Since lyrium is very.. shiny.. a lyrium moon would probably shine brighter than a regular moon.

[Vorathrad]

Maybe the other moon has a very long orbit and is only visible from Thedas at very long intervals, when it causes and eclipse with the other moon and marks special events such as Fen'Harel stirring (science people please don't kill me if this is utter nonsense)

[Reznore57]

I remember someone once wrote about foci and eclipse and how those two were related , and I remember it was interesting...sadly I can't remember exactly what it was all about .

[Elista]

Foci and eclipse I dunno but foci and ellipse...
http://www.mathopenr...llipsefoci.html

Vorathrad, you were talking about an orbit... that is elliptic... so... foci !
Solas tarot card has the sun, moon and other symbols in the astrarium target.

So. Foci may very well be related to planets, astrariums, etc. So much power... to create the Veil ?