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[azarhal]

 

The Guide of Falon'DinEdit
Falon'Din sought someone to be his messenger and companion. The wind was swift, but Falon'Din refused to chain it. The People were loyal, but could not live where Falon'Din walked. Then the owl came to him and said, "I am not cowed by darkness. Let me serve you who also has no fear of night." Falon'Din accepted gladly, and took the owl as his servant, who thereafter helped Falon'Din guide the People through the passage of the Veil.
 
—From Animals of the People, as told by Ellathin, Keeper of Clan Tillahnnen

It's a Dalish thing as well.

 

 
So I take it Ellathin of Clan Tillahnnen doesn't get along with Gisharel of Clan Ralaferin (see below, both codex are from DAI). Although, that might point toward something else. Maybe Andruil helped Falon'Din after he was killed by the others and got stuck in the Fade.

 

Andruil's Messenger

 

Long ago, when our people were strong and free, we roamed the world and could do as we pleased. But we were taught by Andruil, Mother of Hares, to respect nature and all of the Creator's creatures. Even though the earth was ours, we did not misuse it. They say the great leaders of the People would pray to Andruil for guidance. Where shall we hunt? Where shall we raise our halla? Where shall we settle and build? Andruil would send her messenger, the owl, to show the People the way, and they would follow him to where the land was blessed.
Always keep an eye out for the noble owl. You never know: Andruil might have a message for you.

—As told by Keeper Gisharel to the children of the Ralaferin clan

[Shari'El]

 
So I take it Ellathin of Clan Tillahnnen doesn't get along with Gisharel of Clan Ralaferin (both codex are from DAI).
 

 

Yeah, I know that codex, we can't be certain of the truth, I sort of stopped trusting Gisharel because it seems like most of the things told by Keeper Gisharel are nonsense, like how the vallaslin is an honor and you need to meditate before receiving it, or how Elgar'nan was born of the sun (that sounds too silly even for a fantasy setting), a weird story about how Ghilan'nain became the first halla (even though we have sources that state she created them herself), how the Dread Wolf did not care for the People and, actually, almost everything about Fen'Harel is wrong, I won't be surprised if Keeper Gisharel is the reason Fen'Harel is so hated. 80% of the codices related to Gisharel end with how evil Fen'Harel and that he trapped the gods.

I kinda started rolling my eyes at the name at some point.

 

Anyhow, we can't be really certain whose messenger the owl is, that is something that wasn't fully addressed in the new lore.

We only have Keeper Gisharel versus Keeper Ellathin + description of a constellation that says "the elven god Falon'Din, sometimes represented in tales as a giant owl" which hints there may be more tales depicting him as so.

 

I tend to think Falon'Din = owl because I'm biased and don't like Gisharel 

[chaztehman]

You guys are starting to make me believe Old Gods = evanuris... I just never liked the idea of it adding up so easy with the 7 = 7... but Frank gave a lot of good supporting evidence, and it screams to me them morphing over time into darker versions. Power corrupts and all that jazz.

 

I should point out since owls are being brought up, owl statues are EVERYWHERE in skyhold. I thought it was a Chantry thing but someone just said they see it as a bad omen. Then again the Andraste art has owls in the border. Also there is the idea that skyhold is where Solas made the veil, therefore it must be his place, but hes not associated with owls at all. We do know it has had many owners though. There are those weird dwarf statues in the basement aswell...anyway...

 

I keep reading posts and getting great ideas for things to say, then forget what I wanted to say. Oh well.

 

The wiki has some Flemeth quotes, which I think can really give insight into Mythal's deeds and intentions for the future.

DAO "Men's hearts hold shadows darker than any tainted creature."

DA2 "Regret is something I know well. Take care not to cling to it, to hold it so close that it poisons your soul."

DA2 "We stand upon the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss. Watch for that moment... and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap. It is only when you fall that you learn whether you can fly."

 

When you speak to her after the well of sorrows, if you ask her to reveal herself to "the elves, to everyone?!" she responds "(laughs) I knew the hearts of men even before she came to me. It is why she came to me."

This isn't really new information but I think its important to note based on the knowledge of the first spirits, 'men' means everyone. She doesn't care about the elves like Solas, at least not anymore.

So based on the second quote, what does she have to regret? Helping her people destroy the world? "She was betrayed as I was betrayed-- as the world was betrayed!"

 

I think its also important to note how upset Morrigan is at Flemeth for not being a good mother. This could be minor, or it could reflect how Mythal has fallen so far from the Mother and more about Vengence.

 

EDIT: Oh yeah and one of the things I hear no one mention. Everyone says Flemeth put a piece of her in the eluvian but we also know if you have kieran in your game she takes his Old God soul. She could have just as much put the Old God soul into the eluvian aswell.

[FernRain]

Gaider hinted that the Old Gods could have been based on the Elven gods or the Forgotten Ones, and that the second group had more reasons for that. But that was 6 years ago on the forums.
 
Razikale has my interest as it's supposedly the next archdemon. I'm of the mind that it's Dirthamen. If JoH had so much to say about her, and we exclusively visit the temple of Dirthamen.. then it seems as though it will be important in the next game.
 
Disjointed thought:

Spoiler

Art in the Frostback basin that caught my attention:
 

 

The first one is the Avvar depiction of.. Sigfost (a bear that is the guardian of wisdom)? But throughout the Frostback Basin we see a modified version (middle). What do you make of it? Then there's the tentacled image to the right in the Tevinter areas which I guess is Razikale.

 

Anyhow. Razikale worshipers asked her to save them from the "silence which devours", which reminds me of the madness the followers of Dirthamen were experiencing.
 
So with Razikale we've got themes of:

• Mystery, wisdom, truth,
• "Twisted Path", Shadow which obscures the path ahead,
• Eyes to pierce darkness, Souls to bear wounds of the labyrinth,
• Silence which devours, Paths lost in darkness.
  Spoiler

  

And Dirthamen's themes are:

• Secrets, truth,
• Shadows,
• Having found the path to the fade,
• Silence,
• Secrets causing madness.

Spoiler

We few whisper here where shadow dwells.
Some words remain unuttered.
Truths are pushed down, down
Where they shall never arise again.
 
Dirthamen is gone, he said.
Our Highest One brings to us this gravest news.
What shall we do? Where shall we go?
What of the old secrets that burn within our hearts?
 
They will come for us in the night
Those who could steal the words from our lips
And our god no longer rises to our defense.
We claw at the walls, at the walls.
Now we pray for a dawn that will never arrive.
 
Our Highest One, he deceives us.
The honeyed words that drip from his tongue
We know the despair they mask.
We disciples of Dirthamen know truth, now as ever.
 
The Highest One promises safety.
I shall protect our ancient secrets, he claims
All that Dirthamen once granted to us will be safe.
But it is our blood he seeks
A sacrifice dark and unholy
A prison of evil to keep us in and everyone else out.
 
We will not have it, will not have it!
The secrets are madness in our ears, but they are ours
The Highest One cannot take them from us.
Only Dirthamen, our Keeper, only he
And if he does not take the secrets
They are ours forever.
 
His mind which cannot think
His tongue which cannot speak
His hands which cannot touch
His ears which cannot hear
His eyes which cannot see
And thus shall our Highest One be bound.
He shall join us in our Silence.
 
For his heart, for his heart
Our Highest One is bound.
The secret that he keeps, he keeps with us
The vigil that he keeps, he keeps with us
His fear will not weaken us
No-one shall come, dear mentor.
In our eternity, only darkness reigns.

They sounds similar, at least. The "secrets are madness in our ears", I want to know more about.
 
While I'm here, a depiction of Razikale's followers in a religious ceremony:

Spoiler

Why does the skull have antlers growing from it..
 
Something just occurred to me, you know when OGB Kieran meets Mythal in the fade? They're standing on top of this:
 

 
You know where else we see a serpent devouring itself? In Razikale's Reach (sorry it's hard to see, circle in the middle):

Spoiler

And you know who kneels above that glyph in the fade? A back-stabbed and bleeding Dirthamen (according to "The Raven" landmark):

Spoiler

 

I think I've lost it a bit more than usual today.. Maybe it's just a coincidence! .

[azarhal]

Yeah, I know that codex, we can't be certain of the truth, I sort of stopped trusting Gisharel because it seems like most of the things told by Keeper Gisharel are nonsense, like how the vallaslin is an honor and you need to meditate before receiving it, or how Elgar'nan was born of the sun (that sounds too silly even for a fantasy setting), a weird story about how Ghilan'nain became the first halla (even though we have sources that state she created them herself), how the Dread Wolf did not care for the People and, actually, almost everything about Fen'Harel is wrong, I won't be surprised if Keeper Gisharel is the reason Fen'Harel is so hated. 80% of the codices related to Gisharel end with how evil Fen'Harel and that he trapped the gods.

I kinda started rolling my eyes at the name at some point.

 

Anyhow, we can't be really certain whose messenger the owl is, that is something that wasn't fully addressed in the new lore.

We only have Keeper Gisharel versus Keeper Ellathin + description of a constellation that says "the elven god Falon'Din, sometimes represented in tales as a giant owl" which hints there may be more tales depicting him as so.

 

I tend to think Falon'Din = owl because I'm biased and don't like Gisharel 

 

Seems like it is somewhat accurate to me. The vallaslin was an honor, but from the nobles owning the slaves to his favored god. At least that is what Solas says in DAI and he didn't explain the process, meditation might be required. Fen'harel did trap the gods, he even say it himself. Never forget that rebellion is on one side of a coin where treason stand on the other. The Dalish probably found more lore about the Enuvaris fighting against Fen'Harel than from Fen'Harel own side...

 

As for Elgar'nan being from the sun, well Mythal is from the sea and Andruil apparently from the earth (Tabletop RPG manual might not be that accurate). We know being from the earth basically mean coming from the Stone (or more likely being tied to a Titan). Coming from the sea might mean coming from the Void which is where spirits are "born" in both the Elven (according to Solas personal quest) and Andrastian belief systems (the wells of all souls). It raise a good question about what the hell was Andruil doing there, I know. The air/sky usually mean the Fade. So what would be the Sun? Probably whatever is looking like the Sun in the Fade. It is an allegory for something else like earth, sea and air are.

 

As for this tale, it might be accurate, we don't know how Andruil and Ghilan'nain meet, even if Ghilan'nain created the Halla, she might have been able to turn into one as well.

 

You guys are starting to make me believe Old Gods = evanuris... I just never liked the idea of it adding up so easy with the 7 = 7... but Frank gave a lot of good supporting evidence, and it screams to me them morphing over time into darker versions. Power corrupts and all that jazz.

 

I should point out since owls are being brought up, owl statues are EVERYWHERE in skyhold. I thought it was a Chantry thing but someone just said they see it as a bad omen. Then again the Andraste art has owls in the border. Also there is the idea that skyhold is where Solas made the veil, therefore it must be his place, but hes not associated with owls at all. We do know it has had many owners though. There are those weird dwarf statues in the basement aswell...anyway...

 

I keep reading posts and getting great ideas for things to say, then forget what I wanted to say. Oh well.

 

The wiki has some Flemeth quotes, which I think can really give insight into Mythal's deeds and intentions for the future.

DAO "Men's hearts hold shadows darker than any tainted creature."

DA2 "Regret is something I know well. Take care not to cling to it, to hold it so close that it poisons your soul."

DA2 "We stand upon the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss. Watch for that moment... and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap. It is only when you fall that you learn whether you can fly."

 

When you speak to her after the well of sorrows, if you ask her to reveal herself to "the elves, to everyone?!" she responds "(laughs) I knew the hearts of men even before she came to me. It is why she came to me."

This isn't really new information but I think its important to note based on the knowledge of the first spirits, 'men' means everyone. She doesn't care about the elves like Solas, at least not anymore.

So based on the second quote, what does she have to regret? Helping her people destroy the world? "She was betrayed as I was betrayed-- as the world was betrayed!"

 

I think its also important to note how upset Morrigan is at Flemeth for not being a good mother. This could be minor, or it could reflect how Mythal has fallen so far from the Mother and more about Vengence.

 

EDIT: Oh yeah and one of the things I hear no one mention. Everyone says Flemeth put a piece of her in the eluvian but we also know if you have kieran in your game she takes his Old God soul. She could have just as much put the Old God soul into the eluvian aswell.

 

Skyhold is dreadfully devoid of wolf imagery until Solas painted himself. I don't think he owned it, it probably belonged to someone else who isn't in any capacity to throw people out. The other choice is that the original building doesn't exist anymore.

 

I think Mythal's regrets are tied to a big mistake she made in the past or maybe many mistakes that probably lead to the current situation. I think it started with what happened to Andruil. She also seems to regret being a bad mother now, which I take it to mean that she faltered but didn't fall (Cole's version of a spirit becoming other, Cassandra understand...I love their banter).

[myahele]

We know that Falon'Din, whose animal is an Own, tried to conquer alot of land and wage war to the point where he near Mythal's territory. 

 

He also wanted to be venerated and those who don't will be killed.

 

I can picture Falon'din and his forces conquering lands and putting his mark, aka Owl, in those places and it might explain why there's so many statues of owls all over Skyhold and in different parts of Ferelden/Orlais because that was his territory, at least up until he was beaten by the other Evanuris

 

While we're on the subject of Flemythal, in DA2 she tells Hawke "Regret is something I know well. Take care not to cling to it. To hold it so close that it poisons your soul." Perhaps she's talking about he she accidently changed Mythal's purpose not unlike Justice/Anders

[chaztehman]

 

Wow, all those details I missed! Awesome! Its the things like this that really get me. The imagery. I kinda wish I had JoH now.
Its very hard to tell what is just cool world game art and actually lore relevent but I think bioware is trying to make a staple especially with the introduction of cultural art in DAI.
On that note, can anyone tell me what the bottom picture is? Its turned on its side in the link. It always looked like an evil templar with elves in despair at his feet, which is... weird. It bothers me everytime I see it.
http://vignette2.wik...=20141214164319

 

 

[FernRain]

On that note, can anyone tell me what the bottom picture is? Its turned on its side in the link. It always looked like an evil templar with elves in despair at his feet, which is... weird. It bothers me everytime I see it.
http://vignette2.wik...=20141214164319

 

Either Andruil after she came back from the void, or The Sinner.

[Shari'El]

Seems like it is somewhat accurate to me. The vallaslin was an honor, but from the nobles owning the slaves to his favored god. At least that is what Solas says in DAI and he didn't explain the process, meditation might be required. Fen'harel did trap the gods, he even say it himself. Never forget that rebellion is on one side of a coin where treason stand on the other. The Dalish probably found more lore about the Enuvaris fighting against Fen'Harel than from Fen'Harel own side...

 

As for Elgar'nan being from the sun, well Mythal is from the sea and Andruil apparently from the earth (Tabletop RPG manual might not be that accurate). We know being from the earth basically mean coming from the Stone (or more likely being tied to a Titan). Coming from the sea might mean coming from the Void which is where spirits are "born" in both the Elven (according to Solas personal quest) and Andrastian belief systems (the wells of all souls). It raise a good question about what the hell was Andruil doing there, I know. The air/sky usually mean the Fade. So what would be the Sun? Probably whatever is looking like the Sun in the Fade. It is an allegory for something else like earth, sea and air are.

 

As for this tale, it might be accurate, we don't know how Andruil and Ghilan'nain meet, even if Ghilan'nain created the Halla, she might have been able to turn into one as well.

 

It's not an honor, it's slave markings, it's like ear tags for cows, it's to mark them, seeing these are blood writing perhaps they even hold further meaning and may be used to control the slave to some extent.

 

"They honor the elven god" Lavellan says, to which Solas responds "no, they are slave markings, or at least they were in the times of ancient Arlathan".

He confirms the vallaslin are the symbols of the Evanuris, that were used by a noble to mark his slaves to honor his gods. It's like showing an appreciation to a god by putting statues of them in your household, your slaves is just another object you can use to show appreciation to your gods.

 

And yes, Fen'Harel locked the Evanuris away, for a good reason (even if with horrible repercussions), but those tales about Fen'Harel laughing in glee in fetus pose? And that he didn't care for the People? He might have been the only one to truly care about the People.

 

I know it was said in game that Andruil is the daughter of Mythal and Elgar'nan, I don't think the idea of her coming from earth is supported, but it matters not, the sun didn't physically touch the earth and Elgar'nan didn't throw his sun-father to the abyss, so tale is still silly, even if it just a big metaphor for something. We know they weren't actual gods, they were probably the first spirits to manifest outside the Fade with a physical form. These tales are told to the "lesser" people to reinforce the idea the Evanuris were special, they weren't born like everybody else were, they came from the sun or from the sea, etc. It sounds so much like Greek and Norse mythology in which gods are born in weird ways most of the time instead of actual birth.

 

The tale speaks of Ghilan'nain as the first halla and sounds like she stayed a halla afterwards, seeing she was blinded... But no matter, the idea of a simple hunter capturing an Evanuri is weird, plus we know they weren't real gods, they can't curse people to stop hunting, unless they use blood magic to control their minds, in that case perhaps part of the tale is right, but it probably starts with "Ghilan'nain saw a hunter killing one of her (perhaps horrendous) creations, she got mad and used blood magic (perhaps through the vallaslin) to render him unable to kill anymore, the hunter then gets pissed at Ghilan'nain and tries to get back at her, but she makes a horde of halla trample him to death". Ghilan'nain is truly disturbing for me, I think she was one of the more messed up of the bunch.

 

It is fact that almost everything Gisharel tells are lies, like the idea Andruil thought the elves to respect nature while in truth she liked hunting elves and creatures just for sport.

[Shari'El]

Gaider hinted that the Old Gods could have been based on the Elven gods or the Forgotten Ones, and that the second group had more reasons for that. But that was 6 years ago on the forums.
 

-snip-

 

I think I've lost it a bit more than usual today.. Maybe it's just a coincidence! .

 

I also tended to think Razikale is Dirthamen, I felt it fits nicely, but seeing I couldn't attach Dumat to anyone else I decided to let go of the notion.

Up until some time ago I thought Dumat was Mythal, but seeing she wasn't trapped in the Fade with the rest of Evanuris I can't see how it could be.

Nice post by the way 

[Kantr]

I think we can deduce this to be not true, I think that the Forbidden Ones are entirely spirits - we already encountered the demon Choice. Spirit. Imshael, as well as Gaxkang. We also know there are only 4, and we also have this from Trespasser.

On the other hand there seem to be more than 4 Forgotten Ones (their names lost in history) and seem to be of different nature, we have a story of Andruil and Anaris fighting over Fen'Harel and a note written by Geldauran you can see here, Geldauran doesn't sound like a demon.

 

But of course, I could be mistaken.

Well Thinking about there could be different groups. However Xebencheck was said to have cast off form, so once they weren't spirits.

 

Would explain why Imshael knows about the Eluvians

[FernRain]

I also tended to think Razikale is Dirthamen, I felt it fits nicely, but seeing I couldn't attach Dumat to anyone else I decided to let go of the notion.

Up until some time ago I thought Dumat was Mythal, but seeing she wasn't trapped in the Fade with the rest of Evanuris I can't see how it could be.

Nice post by the way 

 

I wondered the same.

 

So then who is Razikale? Admittedly I didn't read page 3 .

[Shari'El]

By the way, all those painting you see everywhere, I think they were done post-ancient elves, I think most of those paintings were done after the Second Exalted March (2:10 Glory), we can see the graffiti all over The Knights' Tomb (at least the type that features most red, black and white, I think I also saw the other type but I am uncertain), this tomb is to honor the Emerald Knights who died protecting the elves during the Exalted March.

By the time the elves got separated into Dalish and city elves we know they lost most of their lore, that must mean that either these do not depict what we think they do, or that an ancient elf painted them in some attempt to tell the story of the elven empire to the modern elves.

 

For all we know some of these graffiti could be depicting something out of the era of the Elvhen Empire, like that last one here

It could be a templar, the Templar Order was formed at 1:20 Divine, so it was pre-graffiti.

 

I don't really know if it is a templar, but it was an example.

[Reznore57]

Gaider hinted that the Old Gods could have been based on the Elven gods or the Forgotten Ones, and that the second group had more reasons for that. But that was 6 years ago on the forums.
 
Razikale has my interest as it's supposedly the next archdemon. I'm of the mind that it's Dirthamen. If JoH had so much to say about her, and we exclusively visit the temple of Dirthamen.. then it seems as though it will be important in the next game.
 
Disjointed thought:

Spoiler

Art in the Frostback basin that caught my attention:
 

 

The first one is the Avvar depiction of.. Sigfost (a bear that is the guardian of wisdom)? But throughout the Frostback Basin we see a modified version (middle). What do you make of it? Then there's the tentacled image to the right in the Tevinter areas which I guess is Razikale.

 

Anyhow. Razikale worshipers asked her to save them from the "silence which devours", which reminds me of the madness the followers of Dirthamen were experiencing.
 
So with Razikale we've got themes of:

• Mystery, wisdom, truth,
• "Twisted Path", Shadow which obscures the path ahead,
• Eyes to pierce darkness, Souls to bear wounds of the labyrinth,
• Silence which devours, Paths lost in darkness.
  Spoiler

  

And Dirthamen's themes are:

• Secrets, truth,
• Shadows,
• Having found the path to the fade,
• Silence,
• Secrets causing madness.

Spoiler

They sounds similar, at least. The "secrets are madness in our ears", I want to know more about.
 
While I'm here, a depiction of Razikale's followers in a religious ceremony:

Spoiler

Why does the skull have antlers growing from it..
 
Something just occurred to me, you know when OGB Kieran meets Mythal in the fade? They're standing on top of this:
 

 
You know where else we see a serpent devouring itself? In Razikale's Reach (sorry it's hard to see, circle in the middle):

Spoiler

And you know who kneels above that glyph in the fade? A back-stabbed and bleeding Dirthamen (according to "The Raven" landmark):

Spoiler

 

I think I've lost it a bit more than usual today.. Maybe it's just a coincidence! .

 

I never noticed the ourosboros in game !

There's one in Until we Sleep comic ,when a magister tries to use dragon blood to reshape reality.

The ourosboros is a dragon or snake biting its own tail , it's the beginning and the end in an unending circle , I'm no specialist in symbolism , but it's like opposite forming a whole.

Or I don't know people get born , people die , but humanity as a whole just keep on.etc...

It would echo the Maker creating opposition in all things (for earth sky blablabla), but there is a balance and only him can shatter it or mend it.

 

It might shade more light on the role of dragons , if that's part of their role , if they have one anyway.^^

[FernRain]

A while ago I actually wrote out all the Old Gods and what they were associated with to try and make the Elven connection. This is what I had:

 

• Dumat - Silence, secrets, dragon in flight, man carrying a wand (scales).
• Zazikel - Chaos, madman of chaos, ill omens, satinalia celebrations,
• Toth - Fire, forgewright of fire, man aflame (victim), flaming orb.
• Andorhal - Slaves, chained man.
• Urthemiel - Beauty, fairest, graceful, works of beauty, the maiden.
• Razikale - Mystery, sacrifice, saved from lustful mage, granting of wishes.
• Lusacan - Night, watchman of night, shadow, darkness, owl.

 

• Elgar'nan - Father, sun, vengeance, lightning, winged death.
• Falon'din - Death, fortune, enlightenment, vanity, Dirthamen's shadow, darkness, night.
• Dirthamen - Secrets, knowledge, master of fear / deceit, loyalty, Falon'din's reflection.
• Andruil - Hunt, blood and force, sacrifice, mad.
• Sylaise - Gentle, fire, healing, domestic arts, artist, protector.
• June - Craft, building.
• Ghilan'nain - Halla, created creatures, beautiful.

[Shari'El]

I wondered the same.

 

So then who is Razikale? Admittedly I didn't read page 3 .

 

Mmm FrankWisdom speculate Andruil...

I am still uncertain, I thought Ghilan'nain could be fitting as well (because of similarities between the tale of Razikale's constellation and the tale of Ghilan'nain).

 

Now that I've read what the codices you added I find Ghilan'nain even more fitting since she was said to be goddess of guidance (it keeps mentioning shadowed path and labyrinths), Razikale is the only female Old God, and tales of Ghilan'nain like to mention she was beautiful, she might be vain enough to insist her alter-ego-Old-God will be female  .

Skull growing antlers could also hint at Ghilan'nain seeing she was pretty much an elven Shou Tucker (Fullmetal Alchemist) -shivers-.

 

As for back-stabbed Dirthamen - I have no idea. There were speculations that he was the one who betrayed Solas (seeing Solas has trust issues and that they seem to have been tight, from what you can see from his temple).

[FernRain]

Mmm FrankWisdom speculate Andruil...

I am still uncertain, I thought Ghilan'nain could be fitting as well (because of similarities between the tale of Razikale's constellation and the tale of Ghilan'nain).

 

Now that I've read what the codices you added I find Ghilan'nain even more fitting since she was said to be goddess of guidance (it keeps mentioning shadowed path and labyrinths), Razikale is the only female Old God, and tales of Ghilan'nain like to mention she was beautiful, she might be vain enough to insist her alter-ego-Old-God will be female  .

Skull growing antlers could also hint at Ghilan'nain seeing she was pretty much an elven Shou Tucker (Fullmetal Alchemist) -shivers-.

 

Interesting, I'll have to think on it. I'm curious of Ghilan'nain's relationship with Solas as he carries her staff in his tarot. Then the "Pride stopped her hand" codex entry, his shrine in her grove of which he says "it's peaceful here" (in what looks like a necropolis ), his hunting of the halla, and her statues in the Crestwood Grove and temple of Mythal.

[Shari'El]

Interesting, I'll have to think on it. I'm curious of Ghilan'nain's relationship with Solas as he carries her staff in his tarot. Then the "Pride stopped her hand" codex entry, his shrine in her grove of which he says "it's peaceful here" (in what looks like a necropolis ). He hunted the halla too.

 

She also has statues in the Crestwood grove, and statues in the temple of Mythal.

 

Everybody has statues in Mythal's temple.

Last time I did the run through the temple I tried to take notice of the surrounding, and even wrote about it in a note, I only wrote about the ritual area though.

 

There are 3 puzzles, Fen'Harel has a puzzle on the upper floor (the only one on the upper floor), in his puzzle you need to cheat in order to complete it, it is the hardest.

 

The second room in the upper floor is overlooking a 2 section puzzle and has mosaics of Fen'Harel, Falon'Din & Myhtal.

Although said puzzle consists of two sections it is still considered one path, right section seems to be Falon'Din (owl statues) and left section is Ghilan'nan (halla statues), they are separated by a wall but you still need to do them together in a row. This puzzle section has a mosaic of June in front of it.

 

The third puzzle has a mosaic of Sylaise in front of it, and in itself is the easiest puzzle. It has statues of elven archers, I suspect it symbolizes Andruil and perhaps the Sylaise mosaic is there to indicate they are indeed connected (said to be sisters after all).

 

There are two small chambers in the area, near the door you go through to what is assumed to be the judgement chamber, each has a mosaic of a god and offerings to them (coins and treasure), the two elven gods are Andruil and Falon'Din.

 

Unless the elven archers do not represent Andruil, it means Andruil and Falon'Din have both areas of offering and a path needed to be walked.

I have no idea why one of the paths is divided to two and has both Ghilan'nain and Falon'Din, could mean something.

 

Now I can't for the life of me understand why there isn't a puzzle for Mythal, and how come this area of the Temple of Mythal is almost devoid of statues and mosaics of her.

 

The three puzzles do remind me of the Vir Tanadahl:

Vir Assan, the Way of the Arrow: fly straight and do not waver - puzzle with archers.

Vir Bor'assan, the Way of the Bow: bend but never break - Fen'Harel puzzle.

Vir Adahlen, the Way of the Forest: together we are stronger than the one - Falon'Din & Ghilan'nain puzzle.

 

Yeah yeah I know, stretching it.

There still has to be some kind of meaning, I don't believe they created the puzzles randomly.

 

Anyhow, Falon'Din & Ghilan'nain puzzle:

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Overlooking mosaics of Fen'Harel, Mythal and Falon'Din:

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What Morrigan says if asked what she think this part of the temple is meant for:

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Falon'Din's tribute chamber

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¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[FrankWisdom]

 

A while ago I actually wrote out all the Old Gods and what they were associated with to try and make the Elven connection. This is what I had:

 

• Dumat - Silence, secrets, dragon in flight, man carrying a wand (scales).
• Zazikel - Chaos, madman of chaos, ill omens, satinalia celebrations,
• Toth - Fire, forgewright of fire, man aflame (victim), flaming orb.
• Andorhal - Slaves, chained man.
• Urthemiel - Beauty, fairest, graceful, works of beauty, the maiden.
• Razikale - Mystery, sacrifice, saved from lustful mage, granting of wishes.
• Lusacan - Night, watchman of night, shadow, darkness, owl.

 

• Elgar'nan - Father, sun, vengeance, lightning, winged death.
• Falon'din - Death, fortune, enlightenment, vanity, Dirthamen's shadow, darkness, night.
• Dirthamen - Secrets, knowledge, master of fear / deceit, loyalty, Falon'din's reflection.
• Andruil - Hunt, blood and force, sacrifice, mad.
• Sylaise - Gentle, fire, healing, domestic arts, artist, protector.
• June - Craft, building.
• Ghilan'nain - Halla, created creatures, beautiful.

 

Dumat=Dirthamen

 

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"We are the masters of Secrets"

 

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Dirthamen: Keeper of Secrets

 

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We few whisper here where shadows dwell.

Some words remain unuttered.

Truths are pushed down, down.

Where they shall never arise again.

 

What of the old secrets that burn within our hearts

 

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"To him, the Conductor went in secret, armed with the whisper of Silence."

 

"And yet, the fire in the Conductor's (of silence) heart ignited Within the Architect a terrible flame".

 

Zazikale=Ghilan'nain

 

Spoiler

 

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"She used her power to create animals none had ever seen. The skies teemed with her monsters, the land with her beasts."

 

"The gods would share their power with Ghilan'nain, but only if she destroyed her creations, for they were too untamed to remain among the people"

 

Chaos and freedom.

 

Toth=Sylaise

 

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Sylaise, who's heat rivals Elgar'nan's

Sylaise, who's fire cannot be quenched

 

Andoral=Elgar'nan

 

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"By a thousand, thousand toiling servants swarming over a lump of fallen stone as large as a mountain"

 

"The Slaves have disappeared"

 

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The sun and moon in particular, indeed, many believe the proper depiction of Solium is as both

 

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Bound slaves under the "Solium" (proper depiction is as both i.e. smaller circle=moon, bigger=sun)

 

Urthemiel=June

 

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The High Priest of Beauty, Architect of The Works of beauty, designed every work of wonder of the imperium according to the plans of his god

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"Architects of the grand sonallium (A gift from blessed Sylaise to Clever June as thanks for a great favor)"

 

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"Dalish legends say June is a god of crafts and building".

 

Razikale=Andruil

 

Dragon of Mystery, return to us, we beg you. Your servants falter. The paths ahead are lost in darkness, and those who walk them find only ruin. Those who should guide us instead wage war upon each other, vying for a throne that does not exist. The blood of the sacrifices that seeps into the stone here shall be the only truth we reveal in the end.

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"Blood and Force"

 

"Spare us the moment we become your sacrifices"

 

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In the Temple of Mythal, Solas reveals that Andruil was also known as the Goddess of Sacrifice. She also had a habit of hunting both animals and mortals. Her love for challenging hunts drove her to looking for prey among The Forgotten Ones in the Void, something (mysterious) that ultimately drove her mad. She forgot herself (Mystery) and brought plague to her lands until Mythal successfully challenged her and stole her knowledge (Wisdom=Knowledge, Mystery=Knowledge Lost) of how to find the way to the Abyss.

 

Lusacan=Falon'DIn

 

"Lusacan, the Dragon of Night, calls to you. He lives where it is darkest and waits for the day he will rise. Drink of his blood and know the power in darkness: either fear the Night or wield it."

 

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Called "shadow" in common parlance. It's odd however that the depiction for the constellation has always been that of an owl.

 

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Constellation Draconis A.K.A. The Queen of Dragons=Mythal (from "The Silent Grove")

 

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Also check the parallels within The chant of light and with what we know of the Evanuris

 

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"They are Forbidden from the earth that is our right

 

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"The people must rise before the false gods destroy them all"

 

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"Let us rule over earth as well"

 

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The demons appeared to the children of earth in dreams, and named themselves gods, demanding fealty

 

"As you crave the earth, the earth shall be your domain"

 

"To the pretender gods once more"

[FrankWisdom]

EDIT: Oh yeah and one of the things I hear no one mention. Everyone says Flemeth put a piece of her in the eluvian but we also know if you have kieran in your game she takes his Old God soul. She could have just as much put the Old God soul into the eluvian aswell.

 

Thing is not everyone went through with the dark ritual in origins. Since this is an optional choice we shouldn't stipulate it being what she sends through the eluvian, as this happens regardless of whether she absorbed Urthemiel's soul. I think she sent part of her essence to Morrigan so as I believe her to be Mythal's legacy her "heir ascendant". She has plans for Morrigan'nan and I believe Mythal is the type to plan ahead. She has a long con and we will need Morrigan to be at her best in order to either stop or change Solas' plans.

[azarhal]

The Elven God names meaning according to the eleven language:

 

Elgar'nan : Elgar means spirit, nan mean revenge/vengeance, so Spirit of Revenge/Vengeance.

 

Falon'Din: Falon means Friend, Din mean "not/isn't" and is used to represent the dead. Friend of the Dead is how the Dalish interpreted it, but the Din is capitalized like Harel in Fen'Harel and that name translation is inverted. In other word, he might have been called "Not Friend" or "Dead Friend".

 

Dirthamen : Dirth is a term for knowledge/secret but mean "to speak/tell", we have no information about the meaning of "amen" (but it's not true, that seems to be alen) He was called "To speak ?".

 

Ghilan'nain : Ghilan is close to Ghilani which means "to guide", it is also close to Ghilas which mean "to go". Ghilan could mean "be guided" for all we know. We have no translation for nain either, that would have helped...maybe.

 

Fen'Harel : Fen means wolf, Harel means dreaded/to trick/deceive. Era-Harel means demon-mage and era is dream/tale, so it seams that Harel is used for demons (which makes sense).

 

Andruil : -an mean "this place" when used as a suffix, it seems to mean "to dwell" when in prefix (Andaran is "I dwell in this place). But like Mythal, June and Sylaise, it doesn't seem based off the Elven Language or at least none we have encountered yet.

[FrankWisdom]

I never noticed the ourosboros in game !

There's one in Until we Sleep comic ,when a magister tries to use dragon blood to reshape reality.

The ourosboros is a dragon or snake biting its own tail , it's the beginning and the end in an unending circle , I'm no specialist in symbolism , but it's like opposite forming a whole.

Or I don't know people get born , people die , but humanity as a whole just keep on.etc...

It would echo the Maker creating opposition in all things (for earth sky blablabla), but there is a balance and only him can shatter it or mend it.

 

It might shade more light on the role of dragons , if that's part of their role , if they have one anyway.^^

 

Ouroboros mainly symbolizes death and rebirth in a perpetual cycle. Interesting given this depicts a "soul" literally reborn (Kieran) after death (Archdemon).

[FrankWisdom]

You guys are starting to make me believe Old Gods = evanuris... I just never liked the idea of it adding up so easy with the 7 = 7... but Frank gave a lot of good supporting evidence, and it screams to me them morphing over time into darker versions. Power corrupts and all that jazz.

 

I should point out since owls are being brought up, owl statues are EVERYWHERE in skyhold. I thought it was a Chantry thing but someone just said they see it as a bad omen. Then again the Andraste art has owls in the border. Also there is the idea that skyhold is where Solas made the veil, therefore it must be his place, but hes not associated with owls at all. We do know it has had many owners though. There are those weird dwarf statues in the basement aswell...anyway...

 

I keep reading posts and getting great ideas for things to say, then forget what I wanted to say. Oh well.

 

The wiki has some Flemeth quotes, which I think can really give insight into Mythal's deeds and intentions for the future.

DAO "Men's hearts hold shadows darker than any tainted creature."

DA2 "Regret is something I know well. Take care not to cling to it, to hold it so close that it poisons your soul."

DA2 "We stand upon the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss. Watch for that moment... and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap. It is only when you fall that you learn whether you can fly."

 

When you speak to her after the well of sorrows, if you ask her to reveal herself to "the elves, to everyone?!" she responds "(laughs) I knew the hearts of men even before she came to me. It is why she came to me."

This isn't really new information but I think its important to note based on the knowledge of the first spirits, 'men' means everyone. She doesn't care about the elves like Solas, at least not anymore.

So based on the second quote, what does she have to regret? Helping her people destroy the world? "She was betrayed as I was betrayed-- as the world was betrayed!"

 

I think its also important to note how upset Morrigan is at Flemeth for not being a good mother. This could be minor, or it could reflect how Mythal has fallen so far from the Mother and more about Vengence.

 

To clarify, I don't think the Old Gods are the Evanuris per se. I believe them to be either of two things. First, aspects of the Evanuris. Either their spirits were sundered from their bodies and both were locked up separately i.e. spirit in the fade, bodies in the earth. Or they were a part of the Evanuris, who divided their souls (like the red lyrium dragon held part of Corypheus' soul), much like Flemythal insinuates about herself in Dragon Age 2.

 

The second is that they are The Forgotten Ones or High keepers of the Evanuris.

 

If they are The Forgotten Ones, then perhaps when they fought against the Evanuris and lost they were imprisoned. Given Geldauran's claim, this would have happened much later than their defeat however, as he talks of the Evanuris like they are already claiming to be gods. That implies the Wars are over and Geldauran and his ilk still re not imprisoned.

 

The Forgotten Ones could have been Generals who fought beside the Evanuris and were betrayed and imprisoned in the Evanuris' lust for power after they won the wars (perhaps against the Titans).

 

The Old Gods being the high keepers of the Evanuris could also hold truth, similar to the Old Gods being aspects of the Evanuris. This interests me highly because of what I stipulated earlier about Mythal and Solas.

 

remember that the sinner is said to have 'taken a shape reserved for the Divine and their chosen".

 

If Solas was in fact bound to Mythal (by choice, as she asks him to take physical form and become more than he was) and acted as her guardian, then he was her chosen. This would then explain why there are only 7 Old Gods (Mythal not being one of them). It could also tie-in to "Draconis" the eighth Old God being stricken from history. I speculated Draconis to be Mythal's representation. Well, that could've been the Dread Wolf, who was stricken out of history because of his 'betrayal" of the Evanuris.

 

It could also be that The Forgotten Ones were in fact the Evanuris' High Keepers and therefore my two last theories could be one and the same. Just something to think about.

 

Also Solas specifically states that he has "plans" to deal with The Evanuris once the veil is torn down. If the Old Gods were the Evanuris then there would only be two left, which would make Solas' life much easier. Cole's remarks also seem to indicate that the Evanuris are still intact rather than being almost all dead.

 

Solas lamenting the Old Gods' deaths and the Grey Warden's actions seem to indicate they mean something to him. It definitely is related to the Ancient Elvhen people, but it's in what capacity that's the true mystery.

[FrankWisdom]

Well Thinking about there could be different groups. However Xebencheck was said to have cast off form, so once they weren't spirits.

 

Would explain why Imshael knows about the Eluvians

 

The Forgotten Ones were said to reside in a realm where even The Evanuris couldn't dwell in for a long time. They were also compared to the Evanuris as their equals, their opposites.

They were

Xebenkeck and her ilk's natures were clearly defined, as was her role and her position comapred to the Pantheon. She was a deserter who chose to flee a war in which the people needed her, probably the war against the Titans.

 

She and her Ilk shed their phyical forms and escaped in the far reaches of The Fade. They were bound as punishment by the Evanuris and could no longer take shape, which is why they still need to possess mortals so long after the Evanuris are trapped.

 

Besides, we know the names of all the forbidden ones, and there are only four. We know of three Forgotten Ones however, who are named (which aren't the Forbidden Ones) and it is said their are more that we as of yet have not been informed of.

[Reznore57]

I very much doubt the Old Gods= Evanuris.

They would have been killed or at the very least freed by now .

Why would Flemeth tell Morrigan Urthemiel is worth preserving?Why would she need to shake the "Very Heaven" for her vengeance , if she only need to wait for the Old God to rise as Archdemons , go Dark Ritual to bind them to another body and then well , she could torture them for eternity in Thedas if she feels like it?

 

Solas wouldn't even need a plan , he'd just need to wait until humans deal with the last Archdemons , and poof no more Evanuris.

The wisp of Mythal was still carrying her will for vengeance , Keiran seems fine he just has bad dreams but the soul in him doesn't warn him to run away from Mythal .