781 réponses à ce sujet

[FrankWisdom]

It's not an honor, it's slave markings, it's like ear tags for cows, it's to mark them, seeing these are blood writing perhaps they even hold further meaning and may be used to control the slave to some extent.

 

"They honor the elven god" Lavellan says, to which Solas responds "no, they are slave markings, or at least they were in the times of ancient Arlathan".

He confirms the vallaslin are the symbols of the Evanuris, that were used by a noble to mark his slaves to honor his gods. It's like showing an appreciation to a god by putting statues of them in your household, your slaves is just another object you can use to show appreciation to your gods.

 

 

 

That made me think. What if Vallaslin "blood writing", wasn't actually blood magic used with Elvhen blood. At first I figured, well, since blood magic makes it hard to connect with The Fade, it must have been what was used to bind slaves with Vallaslin, which is probably what keeps them from leaving their physical forms behind and becoming spirits once again. I also thought this inhibited them from shapeshifting, though given the sinner codex, it seems this isn't the case. Perhaps the sinner wasn't a slave though, so we'll keep that thought open for the time being.

 

Anyways, after my talk of Dwarves being enslaved by Mythal after she felled the Titan and gave them "dreams" it made me wonder about Titan's blood.

 

What if Vallaslin was either developed or "enhanced" by binding slaves with Titan's blood. Using it in the same way that Templar's do, to keep magical power in check.

 

We know that Fenris' "procedure" made him develop unique powers, though he wasn't mage, therefore it didn't affect his connection to the fade, but rather helped him tap into it? It's also interesting that his markings enable him to become partly"ethereal" as if reaching into his residual connection to the fade (when ancient Elvhen people were able to switch between Physical and spirit form).

 

Anyways, the reason the markings would be different on Fenris (besides him being a modern Elf who lacks a pronounced connection to The Fade like mages do) is because the person who applied those markings was a Tevinter mage who had no knowledge of the actual process of making Vallaslin as the ancient Elvhen did. If that was the case, I think all Tevinter slaves would be sporting them.

 

Also this concept art came to mind.

 

 

They kind of look like runes, don't they.

 

Also Titan's blood seems to be much more powerful than lyrium veins mined by Dwarves. (as it is "fresh" like circulating, singing blood while lyrium is "dried up" blood more akin to an echo of the song).

 

I'm wondering whether the Evanuris would have actually killed the Titan's they "struck down" rather than forcefully bind them or make them fall asleep,

 

The well

 

Spoiler

 

that we find in the eluvian deep roads is described as being "A lyrium spring. The more we mine, the more there seems to be". Indicating the Titan found under the mining facility was still "alive" (but dormant) with its Wellspring intact.

[hekate68]

 

 

If Solas was in fact bound to Mythal (by choice, as she asks him to take physical form and become more than he was) and acted as her guardian, then he was her chosen. This would then explain why there are only 7 Old Gods (Mythal not being one of them). It could also tie-in to "Draconis" the eighth Old God being stricken from history. I speculated Draconis to be Mythal's representation. Well, that could've been the Dread Wolf, who was stricken out of history because of his 'betrayal" of the Evanuris.

 

 

I don't think it was completely Solas's choice to join her. Many has quoted it before but I'll let myself do it again:

Cole: He did not want a body but she asked him to come, he left a scar when he burned her off his face.

As most of you I believe it refers to Solas and Mythal . As he said, if a spirit is brought to the phiscal world against it's will it twists its purpose, he even gives an example of a spirit of wisdom turning into a pride demon. This is what Solas seems to be and what makes him special. As was said above, harel refers to a demon too. Maybe since the Forgotten Ones are being portayed as responsible for all the nasty nasty stuff they relate more to demons than to spirits? And maybe this is why Fen'Harel could walk freely among both Evanuris and Forgotten Ones? Because Mythal made him both? I'm not certain because this spirit/demon seems to be too polarised for now but it makes sense. Yet I'm using the same words Solas did: a spirit of wisdom and a pride demon. 

Solas seems to be blindly bound to Mythal and it may be because she is some kind of mother to him (wild speculations). We all see she's not saint and she is more focused on vengeance than anything else now, she doesn't care about the People anymore (which is what Solas adored her for) yet he seems to still believe she's on his side. I, in contrary, believe she 'sacrificed' herself only  because she knew Solas will bring death to the Evanuris once and for all. At least that's what seems to be 'his plan'. She may even turn aginst him somehow later.

I don't believe they were loves because as we saw in Trespasser he has a tendency to kiss his beloved before killing them 

Many people speculate what the Sun could be in the mythology. For me it seems like it could be the Golden City. Sun=symbol of the Maker for Andrastians, gold=sun. We know from Solas elven cities could float in the air. In the Skyhold we see something like a black castle in a sphere which is portrayed as the sun. 

Spoiler

 

 

the same here 

Spoiler

 

I still don't know how to fit the Sun=the Golden city into stories about the sun but it may be woth thinking about as long as I remember as I completely sunk into lore when I finished the Trespasser and crazy theories appear in my head all the time and I forget them even faster while searching for proofs and finding even more questions  But if we'll agree fr a moment thatthe Golden/Black City is Arlathan maybe we can find something out. 

[hekate68]

Spoiler

That made me think. What if Vallaslin "blood writing", wasn't actually blood magic used with Elvhen blood. At first I figured, well, since blood magic makes it hard to connect with The Fade, it must have been what was used to bind slaves with Vallaslin, which is probably what keeps them from leaving their physical forms behind and becoming spirits once again. I also thought this inhibited them from shapeshifting, though given the sinner codex, it seems this isn't the case. Perhaps the sinner wasn't a slave though, so we'll keep that thought open for the time being.

 

Anyways, after my talk of Dwarves being enslaved by Mythal after she felled the Titan and gave them "dreams" it made me wonder about Titan's blood.

 

What if Vallaslin was either developed or "enhanced" by binding slaves with Titan's blood. Using it in the same way that Templar's do, to keep magical power in check.

 

We know that Fenris' "procedure" made him develop unique powers, though he wasn't mage, therefore it didn't affect his connection to the fade, but rather helped him tap into it? It's also interesting that his markings enable him to become partly"ethereal" as if reaching into his residual connection to the fade (when ancient Elvhen people were able to switch between Physical and spirit form).

 

Anyways, the reason the markings would be different on Fenris (besides him being a modern Elf who lacks a pronounced connection to The Fade like mages do) is because the person who applied those markings was a Tevinter mage who had no knowledge of the actual process of making Vallaslin as the ancient Elvhen did. If that was the case, I think all Tevinter slaves would be sporting them.

 

Also this concept art came to mind.

 

 

They kind of look like runes, don't they.

 

Also Titan's blood seems to be much more powerful than lyrium veins mined by Dwarves. (as it is "fresh" like circulating, singing blood while lyrium is "dried up" blood more akin to an echo of the song).

 

I'm wondering whether the Evanuris would have actually killed the Titan's they "struck down" rather than forcefully bind them or make them fall asleep,

 

The well that we find in the eluvian deep roads is described as being "A lyrium spring. The more we mine, the more there seems to be". Indicating the Titan found under the mining facility was still "alive" (but dormant) with its Wellspring intact.

It's very interesting and it would make sense in the ancient Arlathan. When the word blood is used in the World of Dragon Age it must mean something. However modern dalish elves use something which seems to be just a normal ink. But even in this form the surface of skin is being damaged, there is some connection with the actual blood and this may be a hidden blood magic ritual, idk. Solas probably uses the same spell in the romance scene as he used to when he was leading the rebelion . So maybe the present form of vallaslin is the same. Maybe. 

[Kantr]

Corypehus and the magisters specifically used elves in the ritual because their blood had a strong connection to the fade

[FrankWisdom]

I don't think it was completely Solas's choice to join her. Many has quoted it before but I'll let myself do it again:

Cole: He did not want a body but she asked him to come, he left a scar when he burned her off his face.

As most of you I believe it refers to Solas and Mythal . As he said, if a spirit is brought to the phiscal world against it's will it twists its purpose, he even gives an example of a spirit of wisdom turning into a pride demon. This is what Solas seems to be and what makes him special. As was said above, harel refers to a demon too. Maybe since the Forgotten Ones are being portayed as responsible for all the nasty nasty stuff they relate more to demons than to spirits? And maybe this is why Fen'Harel could walk freely among both Evanuris and Forgotten Ones? Because Mythal made him both? I'm not certain because this spirit/demon seems to be too polarised for now but it makes sense. Yet I'm using the same words Solas did: a spirit of wisfom and a pride demon. 

Solas seems to be blindly bound to Mythal and it may be because she is some kind of mother to him (wild speculations). We all see she's not saint and she is more focused on vengeance than anything else now, she doesn't care about the People anymore (which is what Solas adored her for) yet he seems to still believe she's on his side. I, in contrary, believe she 'sacrificed' herself only  because she knew Solas will bring death to the Evanuris once and for all. At least that's what seems to be 'his plan'. She may even turn aginst him somehow later.

I don't believe they were loves because as we saw in Trespasser he has a tendency to kiss his beloved before killing them 

Many people speculate what the Sun could be in the mythology. For me it seems like it could be the Golden City. Sun=symbol of the Maker for Andrastians, gold=sun. We know from Solas elven cities could float in the air. In the Skyhold we see something like a black castle in a sphere which is portrayed as the sun. 

Spoiler

 

 

the same here 

Spoiler

 

I still don't know how to fit the Sun=the Golden city into stories about the sun but it may be woth thinking about as long as I remember as I completely sunk into lore when I finished the Trespasser and crazy theories appear in my head all the time and I forget them even faster while searching for proofs and finding even more questions  But if we'll agree fr a moment thatthe Golden/Black City is Arlathan maybe we can find something out.

 

 

 

I agree it wasn't completely his choice. I also agree about your thoughts on The Forgotten Ones, I've posted parallel's in past posts. I believe Solas burned her Vallaslin off once she was killed. I have a recent post that details this, page 3 of this thread I believe.

 

The fact that his name is pride would also support the wisdom=pride transition.

 

Another portent of Drakon's prophecy depicts a demon prowling the fade who devoured the ancient ones' dreams. This I believe refers to Solas as the next verse is "As a wolf hunts a herd of deer".

 

As for her influence on him, I don't think it affected his will, I truly believe his devotion was based on who she was rather than what she did to him. If she influenced him before (as Solas mentions the Well's effects would do to the inquisitor i.e. whatever you do will be for Mythal, without you even realizing it) then I think this was undone either when she "died" or because she developed feelings for him (motherly or otherwise) that made their relationship one of trust rather than one of compulsion.

 

The fact that he is able to absorb her essence at the end of inquisition is proof of this. Even if she does so willingly, I believe she knew she wouldn't be able to match his power, being only a shadow of what she once was which is why I believe she sent part of her essence to Morrigan. She doesn't see the mortal world as Solas does and therefore she doesn't want him to destroy it, even if she wants her people to be restored.

 

Having been bonded with Flemeth for so long, she knows of the mortal races' worth. I believe she's playing The game, planning a long con, and Morrigan'nan plays into that plan, taking over as her "heir ascendant".

 

"Alas, so long as the music plays, we dance"

 

The thing is we don't know the exact relationship between spirits and the physical world in a time before the veil. The Vir Dirthara doesn't mention any demons as far as we know. (as the concept I believe is due to human perception rather than a demon's nature)

 

We do know that spirits were quite different in Ancient Arlathan before the veil. They lived in a world of balance rather than extremes. They had a much easier time adapting to the physical world than spirits post-veil do. This is in fact how the Elvhen race was formed. To that effect, Spirits that had assumed a physical form (such as the ancient Elvhen people) could retain their ability to turn into spirits and become shapeless as well as shapeshift. Because of this radical difference, we don't know what it would've meant for a spirit to forcefully be changed into physical form without the veil being present. It would have been much less of a "shock" to the spirit involved. Most notably they had the ability to adapt and retain their memories, something spirits representing a specific virtue (such as wisdom) cannot achieve.

 

The only thing that could have changed its aspect is the will which was trying to bind it.

 

Whatever Solas was before he took physical form (wisdom and then pride) became irrelevant when he turned into a physical being as he developed personality and memory like other ancient Elvhen people did, which was common practice. What is more interesting is why Mythal would have twisted his nature and bound him in the first place. What knowledge was she seeking? We know the Evanuris were an extremely prideful bunch, I doubt Mythal was an exception at the time, which would have been the basis of wisdom turning into pride. What I want to understand is the dynamic of their relationship and how it grew.

 

Remember that spirits twisted into demons post-veil do not gain physical form unless summoned and bound to a specific object or mage, their aspects have changed but they need to possess a physical host that is connected to The Fade because of the veil. They act as a puppet master, Controlling their hosts from The Fade while seeing through their eyes. We don't know how a spirit beckoned to take physical form and twisted into a "demon" (because of the being "binding" it has corrupted its nature) would react or develop in Ancient Arlathan seeing as their perceptions would not be changed based on seeing the living world but not actually truly being privy to it.

 

"The possession is not physical – the demon is still in the Fade, but so is the mage's spirit, and the demon is able to control the body through that captive spirit like a puppet. The demon channels its power through the body, sees through the mage's eyes and is able to use magic in ways the mage would have never imagined. However, the experience of entering the physical realm is overwhelming to the weaker demons, and abominations are often driven mad by the unfamiliar sensations, turning into monstrosities and going on a rampage.^[5][6]The most powerful demons are able to adapt to the new form and even maintain the original physical shape of their host in particular, when the possession is accepted willingly. Some demons also have the ability of shapeshifting."

 

 

"A demon is an oft-malicious spirit from the Fade that embodies a sin or negative emotion and that feeds on the darker parts of the mortal psyche like rage, hunger, and desire. According to Solas, a spirit becomes a demon when denied its original purpose. This denial occurs when a spirit is forced to do something that greatly conflicts with its original nature, or it may occur as a spirit explores mortal minds and dreams and encounters negative thoughts and memories. A demon's strength and intelligence is dependent on the emotions or idea from which it feeds; the more complex the concept, the more powerful the demon."

 

"Ultimately, a demon is simply a spirit whose purpose has been perverted. Pulling a spirit unwillingly into the mortal world, particularly to achieve a goal out of keeping with its nature, will change a spirit into a demon (however, a spirit passing willingly through the Veil will not be changed^[3]). Furthermore, an individual anticipating seeing a demon will do so, even if the entity is in fact a spirit.^[4]"

 

So with all this info in mind, it's obvious that the distinction between a demon and spirit is a small one in terms of The Fade, mostly defined by mortal perceptions rather than their actual nature.

[Reznore57]

About the vallaslin it's possible there used to be like Fenris tattoo.

I imagine once the elves would be branded with Lyrium , they would gain a few abilities but mostly they would be bound to the earth , unable to lost their form like the Forbidden Ones and run away in the fade.

It may also have kept them from being able to shapeshift.

 

It seems the elites , Gods and nobles weren't branded.

[azarhal]

 

The thing is we don't know the exact relationship between spirits and the physical world in a time before the veil. The Vir Dirthara doesn't mention any demons as far as we know. (as the concept I believe is due to human perception rather than a demon's nature)

 

I think the answer (or the lack of it) is in the Elven Language. For example, Harel means to trick/dreaded/feared/to deceive, all qualities attributed to a demon, so they use it as suffix when they need to call something a demon.

[hekate68]

I think we'll discover more of how things worked before the veil in the next game. Right now we may be tempted by the slightest connections between the little pieces of information we have got. I do agree something like modern demon was probably unknown for the ancients of Arlathan. The forgotten ones seems to fill this blank but I'm uncertain. Especially since we've learned some of the Creators were tyrans and legends are filled with propaganda. Yet, there must be some reason why Solas locked both Evanuris and Forgotten ones. As far as I can tell he didn't even mention them once in the game. I wonder if theres any method in this madness of this is just because the devs avoid flooding us with too much lore at once. Some of you speculate about the connection between Fen'Harel an Ghilan'nain. I'm not sure about this picture (it looks more like a dread bear to me, lol) but I haven't seen a mention about it:

 

 

[azarhal]

I think we'll discover more of how things worked before the veil in the next game. Right now we may be tempted by the slightest connections between the little pieces of information we have got. I do agree something like modern demon was probably unknown for the ancients of Arlathan. The forgotten ones seems to fill this blank but I'm uncertain. Especially since we've learned some of the Creators were tyrans and legends are filled with propaganda. Yet, there must be some reason why Solas locked both Evanuris and Forgotten ones. As far as I can tell he didn't even mention them once in the game. I wonder if theres any method in this madness of this is just because the devs avoid flooding us with too much lore at once. Some of you speculate about the connection between Fen'Harel an Ghilan'nain. I'm not sure about this picture (it looks more like a dread bear to me, lol) but I haven't seen a mention about it:

 

 

 

It is a bear, that would be Dirthamen.

 

As for Solas locking up the Forgotten Ones, he never mentioned doing it, we only have a Dalish's codex that claims he did (unless I missed something somewhere).

[FrankWisdom]

I think the answer (or the lack of it) is in the Elven Language. For example, Harel means to trick/dreaded/feared/to deceive, all qualities attributed to a demon, so they use it as suffix when they need to call something a demon.

I agree. I was trying to point out that demons aren't inherently different than spirits. There might not have been a distinction in the time of Arlathan, before the veil. I believe the distinction was developed because of mortal perception

 

i.e.

 

Ultimately, a demon is simply a spirit whose purpose has been perverted. Pulling a spirit unwillingly into the mortal world, particularly to achieve a goal out of keeping with its nature, will change a spirit into a demon (however, a spirit passing willingly through the Veil will not be changed^[3]). Furthermore, an individual anticipating seeing a demon will do so, even if the entity is in fact a spirit.^[4]"

 

Since the world was fundamentally different, where magic was inherent in all beings (from The Fade) and the physical/spirit realms were interacting, spirits and demons would have been regarded as aspects of the same coin. We also don't know whether demons were actually created because of "negative emotions" since there was a time before the Elvhen people took physical form (being spirits first).

 

We also don't know whether the first spirits embodied specific aspects (wisdom) or developed them as they evolved (rather being "blank slates") which eventually lead to them taking physical form. If this was the case, then who's to say negative emotions weren't embodied in the same way. Anyways for the time being, this is a moot point, it's just an interesting concept to entertain.

[Ziggy XT]

Firstly, incredible work there are a ton of connections in there i would have never noticed myself. lol there is way to much information for me to comment on but i did have one thought on Titans, Shapers, and the seemingly symbiotic relationship between the titans and Dwarves.

 

When i read about Dagna talking about the Shaper erasing the memories i had a probably far fetched idea that maybe they were erasing the actual memory of the Titan on how to wake up (maybe on behest of Mythal ). This could explain the split between the dwarves , the Titans not "remembering" how to wake up, and how they lost connection to the Dwarves.

 

I see the dwarves still in the Titans almost as "white blood cells" fighting off anything "harmful" that invades and also to aid in the maintenance as it were, making sure the lyrium  veins stay flowing, stuff like that because they no longer get any direct input for the Titans anymore.

 

Well thats a crack brained theory of mine. I have not read through all of the thread yet so i hope this wasn't already brought up.

[FrankWisdom]

Firstly, incredible work there are a ton of connections in there i would have never noticed myself. lol there is way to much information for me to comment on but i did have one thought on Titans, Shapers, and the seemingly symbiotic relationship between the titans and Dwarves.

 

When i read about Dagna talking about the Shaper erasing the memories i had a probably far fetched idea that maybe they were erasing the actual memory of the Titan on how to wake up (maybe on behest of Mythal ). This could explain the split between the dwarves , the Titans not "remembering" how to wake up, and how they lost connection to the Dwarves.

 

I see the dwarves still in the Titans almost as "white blood cells" fighting off anything "harmful" that invades and also to aid in the maintenance as it were, making sure the lyrium  veins stay flowing, stuff like that because they no longer get any direct input for the Titans anymore.

 

Well thats a crack brained theory of mine. I have not read through all of the thread yet so i hope this wasn't already brought up.

 

Nope wasn't brought up in this thread though I've seen them described similarly elsewehere, in fact I also saw them in a similar fashion. It's interesting to note however that Valta says the following about the Sha-Brytol

 

 

"They understand I am part of the Titan they defend, but they don't realize it doesn't need their protection. It never has."

 

That implies that ancient Dwarves that were symbiotically linked to Titans were never used as foot soldiers.

 

indicating that they (the Sha-Brytol) might be descendants of The Dwarves who were linked to the Titan before it was sundered and might not even be connected to it anymore (though as I hypothesized in the Dwarves & Lyrium part of my thread, they might have simply lost their purpose because the Titan is asleep and Valta, because of her individuality can understand the Titan in a way they cannot).

 

As described in the Old Elven Writing Codex:

 

"Their workers scurry, witless, souless."

 

I believe Titans created their children (Dwarves) to help them shape the earth and record their memories, so they would not forget their works. I'm guessing that, having a hive mind, this endeavor would help immensely for "Primordial Architects" in collecting pieces of experiences and thoughts and then combining them into a collective, coherent transcribed memory.

[myahele]

It's interesting that Elgar'nan is "Eldest of the Sun" so does that mean that he might have younger siblings that may or may not still be alive? Or is that just another way of saying he's the 1st and only child of the Sun and Earth?

[FrankWisdom]

It's interesting that Elgar'nan is "Eldest of the Sun" so does that mean that he might have younger siblings that may or may not still be alive? Or is that just another way of saying he's the 1st and only child of the Sun and Earth?

 

I wouldn't hold too much credence to those Metaphors, as Andruil is supposedly Elgar'nan and Mythal's daughter while Sylaise is apparently her sister. Dirthamen and Falon'Din are both said to be Eldest of Elgar'Nan and Mythal's children. June is not mentioned as being related to anyone while Ghilan'nain was said to be "one of the people" who ascended to godhood. 

 

Eldest of the sun is probably a reference to all of the "gods", simply meaning he was first among the Evanuris. We know that none of the gods are related (given their true nature, that of The Fade) and that they in fact were all "of the people", even if they were more powerful and perhaps had more magical talent than other spirits who took physical form.

 

Gisharel and his tales are simply a prime example of what has been lost in translation to the elves and how little the Dalish remember and understand. It reflects very well what happens when a grain of truth is lost in a desert of time and misinterpretation. The archaic depictions and paintings also help us realize just how devastatingly hard the cultural blow from the veil's creation (as well as the lost of their "gods" and the rebellion) hit the Elvhen people. It was a haymaker that completely set back their cultural identity like something comparable to modern men from our world perceiving their technological creations the way h.o.m.o sapiens from the neolithic age would.

 

(it's interesting that this forum censors the word h.o.m.o, I don't really see it being used as a slur) 

[Shari'El]

That made me think. What if Vallaslin "blood writing", wasn't actually blood magic used with Elvhen blood. At first I figured, well, since blood magic makes it hard to connect with The Fade, it must have been what was used to bind slaves with Vallaslin, which is probably what keeps them from leaving their physical forms behind and becoming spirits once again. I also thought this inhibited them from shapeshifting, though given the sinner codex, it seems this isn't the case. Perhaps the sinner wasn't a slave though, so we'll keep that thought open for the time being.

 

Anyways, after my talk of Dwarves being enslaved by Mythal after she felled the Titan and gave them "dreams" it made me wonder about Titan's blood.

 

What if Vallaslin was either developed or "enhanced" by binding slaves with Titan's blood. Using it in the same way that Templar's do, to keep magical power in check.

 

We know that Fenris' "procedure" made him develop unique powers, though he wasn't mage, therefore it didn't affect his connection to the fade, but rather helped him tap into it? It's also interesting that his markings enable him to become partly"ethereal" as if reaching into his residual connection to the fade (when ancient Elvhen people were able to switch between Physical and spirit form).

 

Anyways, the reason the markings would be different on Fenris (besides him being a modern Elf who lacks a pronounced connection to The Fade like mages do) is because the person who applied those markings was a Tevinter mage who had no knowledge of the actual process of making Vallaslin as the ancient Elvhen did. If that was the case, I think all Tevinter slaves would be sporting them.

 

Also this concept art came to mind.

 

 

They kind of look like runes, don't they.

 

Also Titan's blood seems to be much more powerful than lyrium veins mined by Dwarves. (as it is "fresh" like circulating, singing blood while lyrium is "dried up" blood more akin to an echo of the song).

 

I'm wondering whether the Evanuris would have actually killed the Titan's they "struck down" rather than forcefully bind them or make them fall asleep,

 

The well

 

Spoiler

 

that we find in the eluvian deep roads is described as being "A lyrium spring. The more we mine, the more there seems to be". Indicating the Titan found under the mining facility was still "alive" (but dormant) with its Wellspring intact.

 

Oooh that's great thinking...

The vallaslin as a mean to limit the potential of slaves, perhaps as a countermeasure the danger of a revolt - after all, in a world magic is abundant this all slaver-slaves wouldn't have worked as good unless you find a way to keep slaves under control.

It's not like in Tevinter where the slaves have no choice, if all slaves in Tevinter would've had any magic potential things wouldn't have looked as they are now, even if the slaves are weaker, they are many, and probably win in term of numbers.

 

There is a quote floating around - "he didn't want a body but she made him come, he left a scar when he burned her off his face" (or something along those lines, too lazy to look for the actual quote ) that people think may relate to Solas. I don't know if that is indeed about him, and honestly I'd rather it won't be, seeing Solas is enough of a special snowflake already, he doesn't need to also be spirit-made-flesh (though there is the less literal interpretation that Solas was interested in the Fade and wasn't interested in his own physical body because the unchanging world didn't excite him) but let's say it is true.

That would mean Mythal handpicked Solas out of the slaves marked by her own vallaslin to serve as her champion, her had to remove her vallaslin off his face in order to be able to tap further into his magical potential.

 

But that's just a theory, a game theory.

 

Edit: just read hekate68's post, realized I'm pretty good at quoting things from my memory.

I should've read all the posts before commenting -awkward cough-

Modifié par Shari'El, 18 septembre 2015 - 09:48 .

[FrankWisdom]

Oooh that's great thinking...

The vallaslin as a mean to limit the potential of slaves, perhaps as a countermeasure the danger of a revolt - after all, in a world magic is abundant this all slaver-slaves wouldn't have worked as good unless you find a way to keep slaves under control.

It's not like in Tevinter where the slaves have no choice, if all slaves in Tevinter would've had any magic potential things wouldn't have looked as they are now, even if the slaves are weaker, they are many, and probably win in term of numbers.

 

There is a quote floating around - "he didn't want a body but she made him come, he left a scar when he burned her off his face" (or something along those lines, too lazy to look for the actual quote ) that people think may relate to Solas. I don't know if that is indeed about him, and honestly I'd rather it won't be, seeing Solas is enough of a special snowflake already, he doesn't need to also be spirit-made-flesh (though there is the less literal interpretation that Solas was interested in the Fade and wasn't interested in his own physical body because the unchanging world didn't excite him) but let's say it is true.

That would mean Mythal handpicked Solas out of the slaves marked by her own vallaslin to serve as her champion, her had to remove her vallaslin off his face in order to be able to tap further into his magical potential.

 

But that's just a theory, a game theory.

Lol, yeah check my post, #105 on this page (5). I go in detail about that quote and my impressions on Solas an Mythal.

[Shari'El]

Lol, yeah check my post, #105 on this page (5). I go in detail about that quote and my impressions on Solas an Mythal.

 

I have issues with the idea of him being spirit made flesh because he speaks about being young in a village that we know to have existed.

He speaks of youth in more occurrences "we were all young once", he says to Sera, and "you should have seen me when I was younger, hot-blooded and cocky" when speaking to Blackwall about being a soldier, he also says "this is all I ever been" when asked if he is like Mythal.

 

I also tend to believe he removed her vallaslin after her murder, his statues have these markings on them that remind me of vallaslin and he had to be associated with Mythal in some manner (something to symbolize the fact he is her champion), the idea he had to remove them to further expand his potential is because of your post, but it can still fit. Perhaps without the vallaslin he would've been a threat in the eyes of the Evanuris.

[FrankWisdom]

I have issues with the idea of him being spirit made flesh because he speaks about being young in a village that we know to have existed.

He speaks of youth in more occurrences "we were all young once", he says to Sera, and "you should have seen me when I was younger, hot-blooded and cocky" when speaking to Blackwall about being a soldier, he also says "this is all I ever been" when asked if he is like Mythal.

 

 

I also felt that way (about him being a spirit) for similar reasons. What I learned from the eluvian deep road codices as well as the Cole quotes and Solas' comments about the well and his personal quest in inquisition made me think otherwise.

 

Take everything in context.

 

Before he told us specifically that he always was Solas (which again was in reference to Mythal's specific situation) I also believed he could have honestly been talking about his "home" of origin during ancient Elvhanan when telling Leliana where he was "born".

 

We know they were described as ancient Tevinter ruins and we know ancient Tevinter ruins are built upon Ancient Elvhen ruins. So he could very well have been "born" there.

 

But what does that mean, for an Ancient Elvhen person, or more to the point, for a "spirit", in a time before the veil.

 

Being born could encompass many things, such as taking physical form for the first time. Transitioning from a one-dimensional being who has no identity past whatever aspect he embodies (WIsdom) into a being who has a sense of self, who can adapt, evolve and remember his deeds as well as the world around him and the people who inhabit it.

 

Also consider the nature of the world itself. Time is relative. These people were immortal, where a shared moment of passion could last years.

 

A time when he was young (recently made a physical being), hot-blooded and cocky could easily have been during his time as Mythal's guardian. Again "young" is a relative term when put in the context of an immortal being. "Young" could have meant when he was a millennia old rather than 10,000 years old.

 

Getting back to his comments about always being Solas, remember we were asking whether or not he was part of another being, in the same sense that Mythal was now part of Flemeth, or Flemeth was part of Mythal, two becoming one. He was always Solas... He was always pride. Think about that statement, you know how Solas uses half-truths and omissions to explain, rather than speaking lies.

 

As for "We were all young once", well isn't that the case for anything that is subject to change? Being young doesn't even have to be inherently linked to concepts that don't apply to immortal beings and "timeless" realms. As long as their is constant and perpetual change, individual memories and sense of self as well as recorded "history", like there was in Elvhanan, then young, once again, becomes relative. With an inherently timeless place given the laws of The Fade, where change was dominated by will rather than passing "time", you can easily refer to what you once were in order to acknowledge what you've become. Solas could easily apply and appreciate that term to relate to "mortals" from Thedas, especially if heavy emotional scars such as regret and loss have marked his past deeds.

[Shari'El]

I also felt that way (about him being a spirit) for similar reasons. What I learned from the eluvian deep road codices as well as the Cole quotes and Solas' comments about the well and his personal quest in inquisition made me think otherwise.

 

Take everything in context.

 

Before he told us specifically that he always was Solas (which again was in reference to Mythal's specific situation) I also believed he could have honestly been talking about his "home" of origin during ancient Elvhanan when telling Leliana where he was "born".

 

We know they were described as ancient Tevinter ruins and we know ancient Tevinter ruins are built upon Ancient Elvhen ruins. So he could very well have been "born" there.

 

But what does that mean, for an Ancient Elvhen person, or more to the point, for a "spirit", in a time before the veil.

 

Being born could encompass many things, such as taking physical form for the first time. Transitioning from a one-dimensional being who has no identity past whatever aspect he embodies (WIsdom) into a being who has a sense of self, who can adapt, evolve and remember his deeds as well as the world around him and the people who inhabit it.

 

Also consider the nature of the world itself. Time is relative. These people were immortal, where a shared moment of passion could last years.

 

A time when he was young (recently made a physical being), hot-blooded and cocky could easily have been during his time as Mythal's guardian. Again "young" is a relative term when put in the context of an immortal being. "Young" could have meant when he was a millennia old rather than 10,000 years old.

 

Getting back to his comments about always being Solas, remember we were asking whether or not he was part of another being, in the same sense that Mythal was now part of Flemeth, or Flemeth was part of Mythal, two becoming one. He was always Solas... He was always pride. Think about that statement, you know how Solas uses half-truths and omissions to explain, rather than speaking lies.

 

As for "We were all young once", well isn't that the case for anything that is subject to change? Being young doesn't even have to be inherently linked to concepts such as time. As long as their is constant and perpetual change, individual memories and sense of self as well as recorded "history", like there was in Elvhanan, then young, once again, becomes relative. With an inherently timeless place given the laws of The Fade, where change was dominated by will rather than passing "time", you can easily refer to what you once were in order to acknowledge what you've become. Solas could easily apply and appreciate that term to relate to "mortals" from Thedas.

 

While that is true, and that these are things I thought about myself while speculating whether Solas was born in a conventional manner, I can't imagine him lying about that, it seems pointless. The only information he doesn't share seems to be the reason Thedas must die for elves to return.

 

When he speaks of said village he mentions how it held no interest to a young man gifted with magic, and that he chose to wander and explore the Fade in search of wonders and knowledge instead. If he indeed was a spirit-made-flesh it means he was pulled by Mythal unwillingly, branded as a slave but stayed connected enough to his ethereal form to show great magic potential (since that's how I'm guessing you can measure the potential of a mage in those times).

It does seem that he had time in his body before he became the champion of Mythal (saying he liked dreaming better than being awake, meeting spirits who showed him treasures, also uses the word "grew up"), I can't really see then why would Mythal just pull him to the world to make him a slave.

 

I searched around for a couple of minutes and found the conversation about when he was younger:

https://youtu.be/OBugDTyat1Q?t=9m37s

 

If we go with the interpretation that he didn't want a body (was more interested in being in the Fade) we could even say that part of him answered Mythal's call to be able to explore other areas of the Fade, since he needed to travel to explore new areas.

 

Anyhow, I'm not convinced he was a spirit of wisdom who was corrupted to pride, but I don't deny the idea that it could've happened, Solas could've worded his answers to be vague, somehow. I think the entire wisdom <-> pride thing is more of symbolic thing in regards to Solas, he wanted to share wisdom, not give orders, but once he took the role of Fen'Harel he started losing himself, his pride is what making him plan to kill off this world for the sake of a dead one, etc.

 

I generally think all beings (all those with magical potential at least) have a spirit, I'm not sure if it is created with them, pulled to a newly born child or decides to manifest out of its' own volition, so it's not that far off anyway.

 

By the way, I thought this might interest you:

 

Cole: You're different, Solas. Sharper. You're in both places.

Solas: I visit the Fade regularly. Perhaps you are sensing traces of it.

Solas: You are a spirit who crossed the Veil and took human form.

Cole: Spirit or demon.

Solas: The two are not so dissimilar, Cole.

Solas: While the world may exert a pull in one direction or another, the choice is ultimately yours.

Modifié par Shari'El, 18 septembre 2015 - 11:39 .

[FrankWisdom]

While that is true, and that these are things I thought about myself while speculating whether Solas was born in a conventional manner, I can't imagine him lying about that, it seems pointless. The only information he doesn't share seems to be the reason Thedas must die for elves to return.

 

When he speaks of said village he mentions how it held no interest to a young man gifted with magic, and that he chose to wander and explore the Fade in search of wonders and knowledge instead. If he indeed was a spirit-made-flesh it means he was pulled by Mythal unwillingly, branded as a slave but stayed connected enough to his ethereal form to show great magic potential (since that's how I'm guessing you can measure the potential of a mage in those times).

It does seem that he had time in his body before he became the champion of Mythal (saying he liked dreaming better than being awake, meeting spirits who showed him treasures, also uses the word "grew up"), I can't really see then why would Mythal just pull him to the world to make him a slave.

 

I searched around for a couple of minutes and found the conversation about when he was younger:

https://youtu.be/OBugDTyat1Q?t=9m37s

 

If we go with the interpretation that he didn't want a body (was more interested in being in the Fade) we could even say that part of him answered Mythal's call to be able to explore other areas of the Fade, since he needed to travel to explore new areas.

 

Anyhow, I'm not convinced he was a spirit of wisdom who was corrupted to pride, but I don't deny the idea that it could've happened, Solas could've worded his answers to be vague, somehow. I think the entire wisdom <-> pride thing is more of symbolic thing in regards to Solas, he wanted to share wisdom, not give orders, but once he took the role of Fen'Harel he started losing himself, his pride is what making him plan to kill off this world for the sake of a dead one, etc.

 

I generally think all beings (all those with magical potential at least) have a spirit, I'm not sure if it is created with them, pulled to a newly born child or decides to manifest out of its' own volition, so it's not that far off anyway.

 

By the way, I thought this might interest you:

 

"I think the entire wisdom <-> pride thing is more of symbolic thing in regards to Solas, he wanted to share wisdom, not give orders, but once he took the role of Fen'Harel he started losing himself, his pride is what making him plan to kill off this world for the sake of a dead one, etc."

 

Nice use of another Cole quote, which in fact, could also be pertaining to Solas. Remember my interpretation of it in my original post i.e.

 

Bare-faced but free, frolicking, fighting, fierce. He wants to give wisdom, not orders.

 

"An Elvhen released from his bonds. He is not used to freedom, nor is he used to being without standing. I believe he was a priest. Bare-face but free suggests his Vallaslin gave him a sense of importance, maybe it showed position, unlike average slaves. the fact that he wants to give wisdom is what makes me feel it suggests he was a either a priest or High Keeper. He is now fighting with Fen'Harel rather than for a false god, once again in a position of standing, perhaps a general. Though he fights for what he believes to be right, he rather do as he did when he was enslaved. Teach rather than command."

 

In fact this could be directly related to the first quote and if I edit my interpretation to fit with what we suppose he was to Mythal as well as a spirit of wisdom it gives us this

 

 

He (Solas) did not want a body but she (Mythal) asked him to come,

he left a scar when he burned her (Vallaslin) off his face.

Bare-faced but free, frolicking, fighting, fierce.

He wants to give wisdom (as he once did), not orders (but he must honor his "maker's" plight and save his people)

 

He (Solas) did not want a body but she (Mythal) asked him to come,

he left a scar when he burned her (Vallaslin) off his face.

 

A spirit of wisdom was called forth by Mythal to take physical shape, and in her pride, he found himself, a pale reflection, shaped in her image. He was eventually bound to her but found a way to free himself. Leaving a scar both physically and emotionally. Either pertaining to the "goddess" or to himself. Perhaps this "spirit turned high keeper/guardian" had a special place in the heart of whomever bound him or called him forth, whether against his will or not (he either took form out of misguided love, respect or desperation or, was forced into shape out of misguided love, respect or desperation).

 

Bare-faced but free, frolicking, fighting, fierce.

He wants to give wisdom (as he once did), not orders (but he must honor his maker and save his people)

 

"Solas was released from his "shackles"/"duties". He is not used to freedom, nor is he used to being without standing. I believe he was Mythal's High Keeper and/or Guardian. Bare-face but free suggests his Vallaslin gave him a sense of importance, maybe it showed position, unlike average slaves. the fact that he wants to give wisdom is what makes me feel it suggests he was a either a priest or High Keeper (that was once a spirit of Wisdom, but now is a Man wrought with Pride) . He is now fighting as Fen'Harel rather than for his All-Mother, once again in a position of standing, a begrudging leader, seen to some as a god. Though he fights for what he believes to be right, he rather do as he did before  he was subservient, before things came with the complications of form. Teach rather than command."

 

After watching the vid and remembering Solas' conversations, it reinforces my beliefs as I hear everything spoken in allegory.

 

 

"While that is true, and that these are things I thought about myself while speculating whether Solas was born in a conventional manner, I can't imagine him lying about that, it seems pointless. The only information he doesn't share seems to be the reason Thedas must die for elves to return"

 

I don't see his lies as pointless because his goal is for us not to learn he is Fen'Harel, which is also what he keeps from us. So how do you answer a question like

 

"What made you start studying The Fade"

 

When the answer is, I never studied The Fade, I lived their, in a time before the veil, that is why I am so knowledgeable about this and ancient elvhen culture, oh an I created the veil.

 

We actually ask him about the veil and he gives us this response

 

"Circle mages call it a barrier between this world and The Fade, but according to my studies in Ancient Elvhen lore, that is a vast oversimplification. Without it, imagine if spirits entered freely. The fade was not a place one went, but of state of nature like the wind". 

 

Every lie told to us has to be told in order to conceal his true nature, that includes how or where he was born as well as giving us believable details about the identity he has crafted, like the crafty, cunning wolf he is.He can't speak freely about the wonders of the world that once was, yet he needs a reason to have "become" who he is now, a "simple" apostate dreamer, who has unprecedented knowledge of The Fade, Spirits and Ancient Elvhen lore...

 

The same applies to where he was born,

 

Inquisitor: What made you start studying The Fade...

 

Honest Solas: I didn't study The Fade, I was born in it.

 

Fen'Harel posing as a suspiciously knowledgeable apostate dreamer:

 

"I grew up in a village to the north, there was little to interest a young man, (remember he has to hide the fact that he's thousands of years old)

 

especially one gifted with magic. As I slept, spirits of the fade showed me glimpses of wonders I never imagined. I treasured my dreams, being awake, out of the fade, became troublesome."

 

The subtext I see here is, "being made a physical being complicated things."

 

"Did spirits try to tempt you?"

 

Did other spirits who took form such as a goddess known as Mythal try to tempt you?

 

"No more than brightly colored fruit that's deliberately tempting you to eat it. I learned to defend myself from more aggressive spirits and how to interact safely with the rest, I learned how to control my dreams with full consciousness, there was so much I wanted to explore"

 

They didn't try to tempt me, but some were more alluring to me than others. I learned to protect myself from those who would change my nature and how to interact with those who meant me no harm, I became more conscious of my surroundings and learned I had a will and the capacity to shape The Fade around me, embodying Wisdom. In doing so, I found myself wanting to explore more of this new reality with my eyes wide open.

 

Inquisitor: I gather you didn't spend your entire life dreaming? I gather you didn't spend your entire existence as a spirit of Wisdom?

 

Solas: No, eventually I was unable to find new areas in The Fade. No, eventually I found my own limitations.

 

Inquisitor: Why?

 

Solas: Two reasons. First, The Fade reflects the world around it, unless I traveled, I would never find anything new. Second, The Fade reflects and is limited by our imaginations, to find interesting areas, one must be interesting.

,

Two reasons, first, spirits reflect the emotions of dreamers around them (even before the veil Uthenera was practiced and Elvhen people explored The deep Fade) unless they found me, I would never experience anything new. Second, The Fade reflects and is limited by our imaginations, to find interesting areas, one must be interesting and as a spirit, I held very little imagination.

 

Inquisitor: Is this why you joined the Inquisition?

 

Solas: I joined the Inquisition because we were all in terrible danger. If our enemies destroy the world, I would have nowhere to lay my head while dreaming in The Fade.

 

I begrudgingly joined Mythal because we were all in terrible danger. If the Evanuris destroyed our world, I would have had no people with which to share my knowledge.

 

Inquisitor: I wish you luck.

 

Thank you. In truth, I've enjoyed experiencing more of life to find more of The Fade.

 

Inquisitor: How so?

 

Solas: You train your will to control magic and withstand possession. Your indomitable focus is an enjoyable side benefit. You have chosen a path who's steps you do not dislike because it leads to a destination you enjoy. As have I.

 

All the parallels I'm (hopefully) entertaining you with aside, in the last conversation subject we bring up he talks about Ostagar. That clearly showcases that Solas was roaming The Fade while in Uthenera, some time before he awakened, which I'm guessing is where his stories about events from "recent" ages (post Arlathan) come from (such as the village mentioned among all the other stories he recounts throughout Inquisition).

 

He says he "Lay in a dark and dreaming sleep, while countless wars and ages passed."

 

The most important quote however, is the one which is referencing spirits of Wisdom and Purpose.

 

Inquisitor: I don't know of any spirits by those names

 

Solas: They rarely seek this world, when they do, their natures do not often survive exposure to the people they encounter. Wisdom and purpose are too easily twisted, to pride and desire.

 

 

It's also interesting that when we ask him questions about demons and possibly garnering healthy relationships with them he says:

 

"Not in the world we know today, the veil creates a barrier that makes true understanding most unlikely"

 

 

 

 

 

Spirit Cole also says this about The Fade and spirits

 

"It is here (The Fade) but held, constrained by a construct, veiled. Feelings, memories, minds, mortality: All shape it, a glass to hold water, we flow in the deep (Fade). Without you (Mortals), we (spirits) have nothing, not even us."

 

That seems to imply that spirits were always blank slates, much like in the Chant of Light: Threnodies, when the "maker" decides to create "mortals". Cole seems to imply that mortals came first, that they are responsible for basic spirit dispositions, such as wisdom and the like. Interesting stuff. This makes me wonder about what came before spirits turned into the first ancient Elvhen people.

 

Anyways, I'm not trying to corrupt you're nature so you see things my way or anything so I'll leave it at that.

 

Maybe I should call myself FrankPride instead of FrankWisdom, though then I'd feel like I'd have to be the figurehead of a movement... and I'm not ready for all that responsibility. I guess I rather give wisdom, not orders.

[FernRain]

-It could also be that The Forgotten Ones were in fact the Evanuris' High Keepers-

 
This is a good thought. I want to know more about the Tirashan Elves that wore their vallaslin .

I think I discovered mention of them in the "moldy journal" (through an Eluvian):
 

...saw yht cross from the Volca, that which draggeth souls down to yhts larder in the brinedark. Hys beast preyth on humblewits and goldsworn even & the tower's keeper declares I will rest here if yht would ease me. The elvhen, which pulled me grip-up from my end, kends he is last of his kynde. I made it known elvhen live south-like, but he says yht would not be as yht was & I said that's evertrue & he laughed lark-like. Come dark he showed me a mirror deep strange, an "eluvian" sworne to beene in his family for...

 
If the person saw whatever "it (yht)" was coming from the Volca (the sea to the west), then when they say they know elvhen live to the south - that's probably Tirashan.

 

Map:

Spoiler

[FernRain]

If anyone is interested in that passage translated, here's my attempt:

 

...saw it cross from the Volca sea, that which drags souls down to its lair in the depths. His (this?) beast preys on stupid people (lol) and treasure hunters/mercenaries, and the tower's keeper declares I will rest here if it would help me feel better. The elvhen, which pulled me up (from my death?), claims he is the last of his kind. I said elvhen live to the south, but he said it wouldn't be as it once was. I said that's true and he laughed like a lark (high pitched bird). When night came, he showed me a mirror that was deep and strange, an "eluvian" he said had been in his family for..

 

I wonder if it was a Cetus, or the creatures Ghilan'nain didn't kill because of Pride. And who the Elvhen that saved him was. Also when it was written.

[themageguy]

Im wondering about the capabilities of a pre-veil elf in using magic.
It would seem there was a distinction of at least power from the knowledge of the existence of elven mages, and yet we also know that they utilised more mundane weaponry such as bows and blades (the weapons cache in the trespasser dlc).
We also know that arcane warriors were distinct from other elven warriors who served nobles.
Also, there is a codex in which Calpernia comments about the nature of the sentinel elves, that it is a magic that is very much akin to the orb Corypheus uses.
Through cutscenes we know that not all were mages like Abelas, and many wielded a bow.
Also there is the codex about elven blood being closely linked to the Fade.

With this info, would it be fairly accurate to state that a non-mage, pre-veil elf would have at least a conscious connection to the fade, but unable to wield the power to shape the 'real' world like a mage?
However, in the June/Sylaise codex in trespasser, it would seem that they could perhaps aid elves capable of shaping magical energies by allowing them to draw upon their inherent magical power?

[chaztehman]

Just some more thoughts.

 

To further add proof to at least Dumat = Dirthamen, some quotes from codex in his temple.

 

The Highest One promises safety.
I shall protect our ancient secrets, he claims
All that Dirthamen once granted to us will be safe.
But it is our blood he seeks
A sacrifice dark and unholy
A prison of evil to keep us in and everyone else out.

 

Then a speech about cutting up their High Keeper in a ritual ends "He shall join us in our Silence." Silence capitalized. Remember aswell Dumat was said to be the one who taught blood magic and now blood magic comes up with Dirthamen's priests.

A weird thing about the temple though... zero anything of Dirthamen in there. Every wall has Falon'din mosaics, one red dragon looking one, and statues of various other gods. There is also a lot of death imagery, which is more of Falon'Dins bizz.

Lets also remember the Dirthamen statue being stabbed bloody in the Fade.

 

I kinda got this feeling like after their people started to become more solid, lyrium wasn't enough and blood became the new must have. If they become too materialized in the material world, could demons try to possess them? Or could they possess each other? I guess its hard to know how the veil changes that.

 

There is also red lyrium in the fade.Some say its cause people are fearing it but there is also a lot of rocks, and the water, and then that codex with the (paraphrase) "Hmmm maybe water is coming through rifts?" and Cole says "They still remember when they were higher, before it woke up and everything fell." I can't be sure its what they are talking about, but its put in my head that the fade is 'falling' back onto earth. I know its overlapped, but perhaps more then just the rifts are making it more transparrent. The awaken thing really speaks to red lyrium and titans or something around that.

Blood is life, blood is magic. Lyrium magic, dragon magic, blight magic. Its all through blood.

 

Are there infinite spirits within the fade? What happens if people stop dying and everyone becomes materialized. What happens to the fade? Does it only exist because people think and dream? Who had the first dream?

 

Someone also mentioned the black city in Solas's paintings. It really does look like the void is in the sun, and the black city is in the void. At least colorwise and position. There is also a chain border around each. Interesting to note that is is black though, not gold... but he records the Inquisitor's life and it was black in the fade. Another thing interesting is he made another one but smaller on the other wall. It looks like the Maker's eye, with a sun and void and black city. Will be pretty funny if the Maker's eye was an abstract map this whole time..

[Shari'El]

I don't see his lies as pointless because his goal is for us not to learn he is Fen'Harel, which is also what he keeps from us. So how do you answer a question like

 

"What made you start studying The Fade"

 

When the answer is, I never studied The Fade, I lived their, in a time before the veil, that is why I am so knowledgeable about this and ancient elvhen culture, oh an I created the veil.

 

We actually ask him about the veil and he gives us this response

 

"Circle mages call it a barrier between this world and The Fade, but according to my studies in Ancient Elvhen lore, that is a vast oversimplification. Without it, imagine if spirits entered freely. The fade was not a place one went, but of state of nature like the wind". 

 

Every lie told to us has to be told in order to conceal his true nature, that includes how or where he was born as well as giving us believable details about the identity he has crafted, like the crafty, cunning wolf he is.He can't speak freely about the wonders of the world that once was, yet he needs a reason to have "become" who he is now, a "simple" apostate dreamer, who has unprecedented knowledge of The Fade, Spirits and Ancient Elvhen lore...

 

I meant it was pointless for Solas to lie to us in Trespasser, when he says "this is always what I was". I see no reason for him to lie or twist the truth regarding his origin.

 

But even so, I think the Fade did exist, the elves were dreamers, they traveled the Fade in their dreams, I think dreaming allowed them to disconnect from their bodies and travel in their spirit form, I think Solas lived in the "unchanging world", and that the Fade was some sort of parallel dimension in which spirits lived and from which elves drew their magical powers. I'm not entire sure how the relationship between the Fade and in unchanging world looked like, I think it's more complex than what we think, this codex entry about the Forbidden Ones speaks about the Fade touching parts of the unchanging world. 

I imagine the Fade as another layer, and in the time pre-Veil those connected to the Fade were able to see it, like watching the world through a piece of cellophane or your cellphone/3DS when playing augmented reality games. It is part of the world, but at the same times isn't, and when the person went to sleep they traveled that layer, without the filtering of the unchanging world. 

 

Yes Solas sometimes lies, but as said, we now know who he is and the general outlines of him plan, by the end of Trespasser he seems to be only withhold the answer to the question regarding why Thedas has to die, but he doesn't lie, he outright says he doesn't want to answer. Plus, he seems to dislike lying, I think he usually lies by omission or by twisting the truth a bit. Like saying he studied the ancient elvhen lore. Well, perhaps he did indeed, he wasn't first of the his kind and we know he is a curious soul, if he did indeed learn everything he knows about magic from the Fade (like he says he did) then he probably also learned things about the true nature of the Fade.

He seems to be a bad liar as well, there is a piece of dialogue that shows that when he doesn't have a prepared answer he stutters and just proclaims "the Fade! I saw it in the Fade!", it's kind of amusing to see Solas, who likes indulging inquisitive Inquisitors, disapproves when being questioned about something.

 

Anyways, I'm not trying to corrupt you're nature so you see things my way or anything so I'll leave it at that.