781 réponses à ce sujet

[FernRain]

Question:

 

What do you see in this mosaic? There are some interesting themes.

 

 

A better image would be greatly welcome. Especially the datamined version.

[Wahed89]

Are there any end of world prophecies in game? Not Sanals' or Flemeths, but like within the various religions?

[AllThatJazz]

Are there any end of world prophecies in game? Not Sanals' or Flemeths, but like within the various religions?

Don't know about within religion - but Eleni Zinovia - the Tevinter statue from the mage Origin and Witch Hunt - had an end of the world type prophecy:

 

The prison is breached. I see the encroaching darkness. The... the shadow will consume all..

 

Now, obviously this could have referred to Corypheus and the Breach (or have a dual meaning). But the Evanuris are also in a prison. And, interestingly, Mythal in DAI refers to herself as a 'shadow, lingering in the sun'. And we know she is aiming for a 'reckoning to shake the heavens'. Could be something or nothing.

[Tielis]

Question:

 

What do you see in this mosaic? There are some interesting themes.

Spoiler

 

A better image would be greatly welcome. Especially the datamined version.

 

I'm going to be terrible, but I see a green glowing egg.  They did put that in on purpose, I'm sure.  

[FrankWisdom]

 
This is a good thought. I want to know more about the Tirashan Elves that wore their vallaslin .

I think I discovered mention of them in the "moldy journal" (through an Eluvian):
 

 
If the person saw whatever "it (yht)" was coming from the Volca (the sea to the west), then when they say they know elvhen live to the south - that's probably Tirashan.

 

Map:

Spoiler

 

 

Saw it cross from the Volca, that which drags souls down to its larder (storage space, or in this case its lair) in the brinedark (deep ocean). His beast preys on peasants/idiots and nobles/wisemen alike and the tower's (lighthouse?) keeper declares I will rest here if it would ease me. The Elvhen, which saved me from the wreck (pulled me out of the wreckage) claims he is the last of his kind. I made it known Elvhen live around the south but says it would not be as it was (after the veil was created) & I said that's the honest truth if I ever heard it and he laughed mischievously. During the night he showed me a mirror quite strange, an "eluvian" the Elvhen man swore had been in his family for... millennia  

 

The first time I played Trespasser and read this I also thought of The Tirashan forest, a lot of weird crap is going on down there, including things with The Forgotten Ones and I truly hope we can investigate in DA4.

 

This journal had to be written during the era of ancient Alamarri tribes, it has to predate The Chasind and Avvar. Close to when Arlathan was falling, most likely before Tevinter destroyed the remnants.

 

The beast he talked about that destroyed his ship could very well be a cetus. I'm curious who the Elvhen was. Obviously he seems to have something to do with the fall. He could have participated in the rebellion and might have been an agent of the Forgotten Ones. He clearly does not see the "southern" Elvhen as his kin and almost mocks the downfall of Arlathan, like good riddance, which means he probably was a slave. Anyways I really enjoyed reading that codex and I'm glad other people payed attention to it

[Reznore57]

If I remember correctly there used to be a port in the Anderfels and people coming from across the Volta Seas , unfriendly people who were mostly interested in lyrium.They respected dwarves a great deal (all captain of the ships ) , and there were no elves among them.

 

After a while they stopped coming , and there were rumors of cataclysm in their homeland.(can't remember the name)

 

But it would mean there are dwarves in power , living on the surface , and lacking lyrium .

[FrankWisdom]

I meant it was pointless for Solas to lie to us in Trespasser, when he says "this is always what I was". I see no reason for him to lie or twist the truth regarding his origin.

 
 

 

He's not lying or twisting the truth though in my opinion. He's just answering us in the context of our question (are you like Mythal). Solas is a man who doesn't share much unless coaxed or comfortable (and not just because he was hiding the fact that he was Fen'Harel). Remember that he also has a goal and he knows we'll try to stop him. Telling us everything is not strategically sound, though he felt he owed us *some* explanations. Always being Solas could just mean I was always Pride or it could just mean like stated above I was never part of someone else like Mythal was.

 

To your point, it's pointless to go into detail about who he was, his relationship with Mythal etc. He was extremely vague in all his exposition. Remember this is a conversation that's supposed to be short and concentrated, he gives us a bit more time but the mark is still killing us an he is determined in his mission, if you examine his facial expressions, you know he anticipated this confrontation and we can also see how sorrowful yet determined not to falter he is once he explains why he's doing what he feels he needs to. It's even more pronounced if you were in a relationship with him. Anyways I'll let the piece go that's how I feel. At this point I'm not arguing about Solas once bring a pride demon or wisdom spirit because I have my own doubts and rejected the notion at first. I'm rather arguing about your reasons for thinking he "wouldn't lie" when I don't see it as lying but rather that it's an omission and is true to his character, especially given the context of the situation and the context of the question.

 

But even so, I think the Fade did exist, the elves were dreamers, they traveled the Fade in their dreams, I think dreaming allowed them to disconnect from their bodies and travel in their spirit form, I think Solas lived in the "unchanging world", and that the Fade was some sort of parallel dimension in which spirits lived and from which elves drew their magical powers. I'm not entire sure how the relationship between the Fade and in unchanging world looked like, I think it's more complex than what we think, this codex entry about the Forbidden Ones speaks about the Fade touching parts of the unchanging world. 

I imagine the Fade as another layer, and in the time pre-Veil those connected to the Fade were able to see it, like watching the world through a piece of cellophane or your cellphone/3DS when playing augmented reality games. It is part of the world, but at the same times isn't, and when the person went to sleep they traveled that layer, without the filtering of the unchanging world.

 

Spoiler

 

Well whether anyone thinks or doesn't think the Fade existed is irrelevant as it's proven to us. In my OP I explain pretty much in detail how I saw the world before the veil with the relevant codices as proof. We are specifically given examples as to how the Elvhen people saw and interacted with the world, both The Fade and the unchanging world. We also saw that some chose to explore The "Deepest" Fade which I also believe was achieved through Uthenera. Remember that in The Fade many "pocket dimensions" were created so the way it works is like "Inception" if you are familiar with that movie, "a dream within a dream". Now imagine that with thousands of dreams within dreams to explore, and that is besides The Deep Fade itself, which also has a depth I compare to our outer space, with an expansive Universe where the laws of physics themselves can kill you. Much scarier.

 

"Those who never manifested outside of the fade will find it easier to find its stillest roots, but it is rare the compulsion overtakes our brethren of the air.

 

Inquisitor: I don't know of any spirits by those names

 

Solas: They rarely seek this world, when they do, their natures do not often survive exposure to the people they encounter. Wisdom and purpose are too easily twisted, to pride and desire.

 

"Stillest roots" suggest places in the unchanging world that are "less" unchanging while "roots" means the epicenter, the origin, like the super-massive black hole at the center of our galaxy. It's also noted that like described in Uthenera codices, "what others have learned will ease your journey" the same way Elders that awoke from Uthenera shared their knowledge with the people. Interestingly, it took years just to prepare for Uthenera and some took hundreds of years searching in The Fade.

 

Spoiler

 

 

"On an island floating in a void. In the distance, haloed by a blizzard of light, thousands of Elves are maintaining an elaborate magical ritual that pulls raw essence from The Fade, funneled into a sphere in the air. Through a lens in the sphere can be seen a world of indigo waterfalls and rust-red jungles, and a temple palace so frescoed and cleverly carved, it is a masterpiece unto itself."

 

This is what I mean by "pocket dimensions". Here they are literally describing a world they have created within The Fade, much like the crossroads which is filled with indigo waterfalls and rust-red jungles. It's also noted that here it is taking a thousand "slaves" just to channel the energy in order to finish the last touches on the temple. The context is explained when they describe the two well-dressed Elves and what they are arguing over, "debating over the color of the palaces roof trim."

 

Not only does it display the vanity and arrogance of the Evanuris, but also the manner in which they treat their slaves and how magic is used and regarded. They build worlds within The Fade and debate over a palaces roof trim residing within that world while their servants are keeping the damn place open with their wills by the thousands... It puts things in perspective.

 

 

 

 

Spoiler

 

The Elvhen people and their (bound) spirit brethren talked of how they tried to affect the changing world as well as the differences pertaining to magical dangers involved when compared to their use of it in the unchanging world. The fundamental differences made for interesting and devastating results. This is why they spoke of the delicacy required when trying to bend the earth to their will, as it resists, therefore powerful spells become destructive, rather than a driving force for change.

 

Spoiler

 

Birds of Fancy in the same manner directly show us the Elvhen people's nature, .How the balance between the unchanging and changing world affected their freedom of form, their magical capacities and most importantly their culture and way of life.

 

Remember Solas said when explaining his world

 

"Imagine if spirits entered freely. The fade was not a place one went, but of state of nature like the wind".

 

 

Spoiler

 

This displays just one of many cities, how The unchanging world affected architecture, as Solas put it, "floating crystal spires" where "magic was as natural as breathing". All shaped with The Fade and the unchanging world, a balance struck to create awe and wonder.

 

Spoiler

 

The Forbidden One Codex just explains in more detail how far The Fade reaches, The Deepest Fade, where one can choose to live as a spirit by shedding his current physical form. I believe the birds of fancy didn't do this completely, preferring to dance between physical and spirit form.

 

Xebenkeck however shed her form outright to escape the battle fought on the "earth", she was caught and seemingly bound to her spirit form by the Evanuris as punishment. This all relates to the Evanuris' entitlement and their arrogance, proclaiming the earth is their right.

 

 

Anyways, I wrote all of this to emphasize how much we've been told in trepassers with all the codices. Just piece them together to form a clear image. I don't understand why some people seem to disregard what is shown right in front of them. I always try to add proof to my theories and arguments because I research. You need a basis for your assumptions. From there you can start building.

 

 

Start rant

I hate it when people start throwing their weight around only to have nothing solid to back them up, even disregarding what the game is telling them. (I'm not speaking about you Shari by the way this is a general observation about some posts I've been reading).

 

People still don't seem to understand that whether Solas used to be a spirit or not, guess what, he's not a special snowflake! All the damn Elves were spirits at one point and could change their nature through will alone. The codices in this post alone are undeniable, verifiable proof of that.

 

Anyways, end rant. I just spent a lot of time on my thread, finding proof to back up my reasoning and it irks me when people try to prove a point but don't take the time to read the info that supports an argument or blatantly ignore what's been established in the lore. And  I don't mean not reading posts in a thread (because of the amount that's been posted while you were offline) or being interested in reading all the codices but rather about people ignoring established knowledge when trying to prove their point.

 

Again this has nothing to do with you Shari, I respect your opinions and enjoy engaging in theory crafting with you, I just started reading a lot of other threads (which I decided to address on this post after adding all these codices) and it kind of hit me how a lot of people seem to be ignoring outright the codices from Vir Dirthara or not adding them up intelligibly. I'm not saying anyone is stupid, just that some things are made clear, there is no room for interpretation yet people feel the need to add a layer of depth where there is none, instead of reading something objectively, they force their subjective interpretations to create a narrative that fits their needs and wants, disregarding what's been given to us by the actual writers of the game...

[FrankWisdom]

Don't know about within religion - but Eleni Zinovia - the Tevinter statue from the mage Origin and Witch Hunt - had an end of the world type prophecy:

 

The prison is breached. I see the encroaching darkness. The... the shadow will consume all..

 

Now, obviously this could have referred to Corypheus and the Breach (or have a dual meaning). But the Evanuris are also in a prison. And, interestingly, Mythal in DAI refers to herself as a 'shadow, lingering in the sun'. And we know she is aiming for a 'reckoning to shake the heavens'. Could be something or nothing.

 

 

This all makes me think of the It that we've been slowly catching glimpses of.

 

 

Cole: They still remember when they were higher, before it woke up and everything fell.

 

Then

 

Veilfire in the Deep Roads codex:

 

Let this place be forgotten let no one wake its anger

 

There is also whispers in the red lyrium.

 

We are here

We have waited

We have slept

We are sundered

We are crippled

We are polluted

We endure

We wait

We have found the dreams again

We will awaken

 

and

 

Drakon's prophecy

 

And those who slept, The ancient ones, awoke

For their dreams had been devoured

by a demon who prowled The Fade

As a wolf hunts a herd of deer

 

 

the two first ones point to a singular entity awakening, something very bad, primordial that can change things on a grand scale.

 

The two last ones point to many entities awakening, that have been maimed.

 

They might both be related, but I think it might be more complicated than that. I also think it all points to Solas' plans of tearing down the veil as well as what the Evanuris "could unleash in their pride" and that could've caused the "end of the world".

 

This I'm sure will be a problem Solas will face when he brings down the veil. No matter his plans, a reckoning will follow whatever comes next.

[FrankWisdom]

Question:

 

What do you see in this mosaic? There are some interesting themes.

 

 

A better image would be greatly welcome. Especially the datamined version.

 

The themes that stand out to me are the vines on each side of Fen'Harel as well as the sphere he is holding that is dripping. Could that be referencing the flowers that bloomed, like in the veilfire in the deep roads codex.

 

But I've checked my screenshots and now that I read the codex  that goes with it, it makes sense to me. Each door has different designs. This one is about the lies of the Evanuris. I'll add the screens to show you what I mean.

 

The chains could describe what the lies meant, that servants were slaves and enslaved because of the Evanuris and what they represent.

 

The orb (magical power) and the drops could be tears (suffering) representing the suffering of the people because of the magical power used against them. The drops could also represent blood or bloodshed or it could represent The Fade itself "waters of The Fade". Either way it represents the dominion held by the Evanuris and how their proclaimed divinity was used against the people.

 

Remember though, Solas says these were explicitly made by his followers, who he says give him "more credit than he deserves" and that they saw him with "rose tinted" glasses the same way propaganda was ripe within Elvhenan about the Evanuris. The same way Andraste gained her support from slaves around her, who saw her as a messiah and savior, which gave Andrastianism and edge as a religion.

 

Anyways here is the matching codex of your picture as well as the other codices to give you context.

 

Spoiler

 

I'll also add an extra that goes with the mosaic above which is titled "The lies of the Evanuris". Ironically the "entry" below details the propaganda and lies of the Evanuris in response to Fen'Harel's rebellion and his denouncing of their false proclamations of Godhood.

 

Spoiler

 

Here is another example of a different design as well as the "Codex" that goes with it

 

 

Spoiler

 

The context is already given to us. the rest is a matter of threading the image and information together to get the whole picture.

 

Here are the other "codex" entries from the rest of the Mosaics

 

Spoiler

 

Spoiler

[azarhal]

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

You know that codex (Vir Dirthara) makes me think of the Seekers Rite of Tranquility codex. It says in it: The rite was required to achieve the true peace that could draw a spirit of faith from the depths of the Fade. 

 

An epiphany is pretty much what the Seeker gets once his/her mind is touch by a spirit of Faith (an epiphany of pure Faith) and the seeker is emotionless when that happen (his/her mind is still as stone).

 

I wonder if there is a relation between the two, of course, the Seeker is probably not doing a mind trip to the deepest part of the Fade, but they are trying to attract a spirit that hang around there...

[themageguy]

Don't know about within religion - but Eleni Zinovia - the Tevinter statue from the mage Origin and Witch Hunt - had an end of the world type prophecy:

The prison is breached. I see the encroaching darkness. The... the shadow will consume all..

Now, obviously this could have referred to Corypheus and the Breach (or have a dual meaning). But the Evanuris are also in a prison. And, interestingly, Mythal in DAI refers to herself as a 'shadow, lingering in the sun'. And we know she is aiming for a 'reckoning to shake the heavens'. Could be something or nothing.

After noting the fervor Solas has when he sees the black city in the fade, i wonder if that's the prison for the Evanuris. And that possibly, the reason Corypheus found it empty was that in the act entering the city it allowed the Evanuris to escape.

[chaztehman]

Question:

 

What do you see in this mosaic? There are some interesting themes.

 

 

A better image would be greatly welcome. Especially the datamined version.

I see a man hanging upside down and chained at the waist. You can even see his hands. I can't tell if the tears are blue or green, but I'ma go have a look in game. My first thought is the old god soul but only because its a visual in the game. Could be so many things... damn symoblic abstract art. I was going to say it looks like lines pointing inward on the inner orb, meaning descenting in, but I think its just bad lighting.

(I keep loosing posts) Someone mentioned the "For a moment, the scent of blood fills the air, and there is a vivid image of green vines growing and enveloping a sphere of fire." I just did the Dead Hand puzzle again and the metal trees that hold energy(seen a lot in Trespasser) really gave me a similar image. Could be a connected symbolism.

[FrankWisdom]

I see a man hanging upside down and chained at the waist. You can even see his hands. I can't tell if the tears are blue or green, but I'ma go have a look in game. My first thought is the old god soul but only because its a visual in the game. Could be so many things... damn symoblic abstract art. I was going to say it looks like lines pointing inward on the inner orb, meaning descenting in, but I think its just bad lighting.

(I keep loosing posts) Someone mentioned the "For a moment, the scent of blood fills the air, and there is a vivid image of green vines growing and enveloping a sphere of fire." I just did the Dead Hand puzzle again and the metal trees that hold energy(seen a lot in Trespasser) really gave me a similar image. Could be a connected symbolism.

 

Yeah I commented on the similarities (between vines enveloping a sphere of fire and the copper/metal trees and other flower codices) in my thread but it got erased before I saved the changes made.

 

This Codex is the main reason I thought of the connection (apart from the visual queues made by the metal trees)

Spoiler

 

"...Describe an immensely tall, immensely graceful, vine that flowers with the heat of a copper sunset..."

 

The last part made me think of the metal (copper) trees or vine spheres that we see everywhere.

 

You are right also about the man hanging upside down, those drops seem to be his blood. If he's chained at the waist under Fen'Harel then what would that entail? is it a representation of all the Evanuris being imprisoned by Fen'Harel (above the man's head and before the drops it seems that the circle is actually horns...) It might also be that the image is meant to be a reflection, like someone staring in a mirror, maybe it represents the eluvians he used and the realms in which the Evanuris are trapped. Those "drops" could be seen as something else entirely. I'll try to flip the pic and re-post it.

 

Edit: Here is the image flipped

 

[Abelis]

So many great theories in this thread, I really enjoy reading them. Lore in the game is a lot, and you are doing a great job putting things together, I really appreciate it, I would never link all this puzzle pieces myself as nicely as you all do!

 

Might i add these, also interesting regarding spirits changing their nature by will or by binding becoming embodied:

 

Solas: I enjoy the company of spirits, yes, which is part of why i dont abuse them with bindings

Cole: It isnt abuse if i ask

Solas: Not always true

(there is a gif version of convo here)

 

Also in Cole's mission, Solas looks away strangely when answering to Varic about one changing their nature by will. I understood from it that one can indeed change (i will link a gif version, i dont want to spam with photos)

[Shari'El]

He's not lying or twisting the truth though in my opinion. He's just answering us in the context of our question (are you like Mythal). Solas is a man who doesn't share much unless coaxed or comfortable (and not just because he was hiding the fact that he was Fen'Harel). Remember that he also has a goal and he knows we'll try to stop him. Telling us everything is not strategically sound, though he felt he owed us *some* explanations. Always being Solas could just mean I was always Pride or it could just mean like stated above I was never part of someone else like Mythal was.

 

That is true, it was more of a personal opinion, I said I see no reason, but that could be because I'm not looking good enough/too blinded (Solas fangirl -cough-), what you said about his being prepared? That is true, he was anticipating the Inquisitor, the first thing he said to them was "I suspect you have questions". He is not much of a liar if caught unprepared, but he was prepared.

 

Well whether anyone thinks or doesn't think the Fade existed is irrelevant as it's proven to us. In my OP I explain pretty much in detail how I saw the world before the veil with the relevant codices as proof. We are specifically given examples as to how the Elvhen people saw and interacted with the world, both The Fade and the unchanging world. We also saw that some chose to explore The "Deepest" Fade which I also believe was achieved through Uthenera. Remember that in The Fade many "pocket dimensions" were created so the way it works is like "Inception" if you are familiar with that movie, "a dream within a dream". Now imagine that with thousands of dreams within dreams to explore, and that is besides The Deep Fade itself, which also has a depth I compare to our outer space, with an expansive Universe where the laws of physics themselves can kill you. Much scarier.

 

(Irrelevant: I love Inception  )

I may have missed out on how you see the world in the opening post, I was reading it all in one sitting, but are you saying the Fade and the unchanging world are one world, its' "stillest roots" are the unchanging world and that the Fade-y parts affect the physics of the unchanging world? Because otherwise I don't understand your vision.

Anyhow, I personally think that while we do have a lot of evidence, we don't have enough to determine how to world really looked like.

When you quote "Imagine if spirits entered freely. The Fade was not a place one went, but of state of nature like the wind", I take the word "entered" literally, imagining spirits passing from one layer to another (from the Fade to the unchanging world) and imagine the Fade existing separately but still affecting the unchanging world.

'Tis is a matter of interpretation, your arguments are compelling but I still imagine the world in a different manner.

 

I agree there are pocket dimensions, that's how I imagined it as well, places like the shattered library that just float in the void, or the crossroads area you can get to from Winter Palace. The areas that have no solid ground beneath them (I personally think that they didn't invest enough time in putting up railings and safeguards against falling down to the.. whatever that is down there. I imagine a person would starve to death/die from lack of air/burn to death from gaining too much velocity if they fall off [instead of, you know, being splattered across an elven pavement]). I think they weren't entirely in the Fade though, but some dimension that exists between (they are closer to the Fade than the unchanging world) and that's why the raising of the Veil had an affect on them ("what happened? Where are the paths? Where are the paths? Gods save me, the floor is gone. Do not let me fall, do no let me --").

Places like the elven mountain ruins or the darvaarad were (in my opinion) part of the unchanging world, there you can no longer see things floating in the air, or anything really unusual for that matter because the Fade was entirely detached from those parts of the world. Thedas as we now know it was that unchanging world.

 

P.s

I'm not sure why, but when the archivist quotes the last words of the ancient elves I can help but laugh, even though it's rather tragic.

 

Start rant

I hate it when people start throwing their weight around only to have nothing solid to back them up, even disregarding what the game is telling them. (I'm not speaking about you Shari by the way this is a general observation about some posts I've been reading).

 

People still don't seem to understand that whether Solas used to be a spirit or not, guess what, he's not a special snowflake! All the damn Elves were spirits at one point and could change their nature through will alone. The codices in this post alone are undeniable, verifiable proof of that.

 

Anyways, end rant. I just spent a lot of time on my thread, finding proof to back up my reasoning and it irks me when people try to prove a point but don't take the time to read the info that supports an argument or blatantly ignore what's been established in the lore. And  I don't mean not reading posts in a thread (because of the amount that's been posted while you were offline) or being interested in reading all the codices but rather about people ignoring established knowledge when trying to prove their point.

 

Again this has nothing to do with you Shari, I respect your opinions and enjoy engaging in theory crafting with you, I just started reading a lot of other threads (which I decided to address on this post after adding all these codices) and it kind of hit me how a lot of people seem to be ignoring outright the codices from Vir Dirthara or not adding them up intelligibly. I'm not saying anyone is stupid, just that some things are made clear, there is no room for interpretation yet people feel the need to add a layer of depth where there is none, instead of reading something objectively, they force their subjective interpretations to create a narrative that fits their needs and wants, disregarding what's been given to us by the actual writers of the game...

 

I rarely venture outside of this thread and the Solas thread because of these sort of things (though the Solas thread is mainly Solas, less theories).

Even if I disagree with some of the ideas being brought up in this thread at least people back them up with quotes and codices...

[chaztehman]

-snip-?

They definately are blue so if its blue blood than its possible an ancient elf thing. I know color can be a tool to convey things and one thing I noticed also in the Morrigan / Flemythal scene is that Morrigan's hands glow rifty-fade green, as she takes her magic from there. Flemythal and now Solas aswell have that old god blue color to their magic. This could just be artsy fartsy stuff, or it could be showing a type of magic(necro is purple...?) or that she takes her magic from somewhere else.

I thought about the horn thing aswell since it definately melds into the head around the edges. Horns are a symbol of power, so it could just be a vague image to portray all evanuris like you say.
On that it brings up my idea of people asking how the Old Gods got into the earth. We know from Solas that where you are in the world determines where you are the Fade. Does it work backwards aswell? Bottabing bottaboom?

 

Happened to walk back into the library and noticed a few things. Orb of destruction Idk if there has been a lot of talk about it(I probably should check..) but it also brings up my feeling from something Solas says at the end of the base game after the orb is destroyed."So much has been lost" "That would not recover what has been lost'. He seems extremely sad about this. This has always questioned what powered the orb. If the image below is an old asset, then it might just be something reused, if not though, it could be specific to the library, and possible a connection. Powered by memories or knowledge? We know Spirits can basically be personified ideas. Or maybe it just is energy to stabalize the area... idk.

Spoiler

Heres another weird thing which is almost definately just the artists throwing some stuff in xD The giant succubus and Tevinter statue. Can't tell what is in the succubus's hand. Its hard to get screens that capture it decently. There was also a bunch of giant hands but I'm guessing its  Falon'Din thing.

Spoiler

[FernRain]

I want to know how the Old God dragons got underground too! They couldn't have just walked through a door way from the surface, surely.

 

The orbs in the library also caught my attention, plus there are some behind one of the buildings. You're asking a lot of interesting questions Chaz .

[FernRain]

Does anyone have insight into the gates of Segrummar in the deep roads? I didn't find much discussion about it online.

[Abelis]

Saw it cross from the Volca, that which drags souls down to its larder (storage space, or in this case its lair) in the brinedark (deep ocean). His beast preys on peasants/idiots and nobles/wisemen alike and the tower's (lighthouse?) keeper declares I will rest here if it would ease me. The Elvhen, which saved me from the wreck (pulled me out of the wreckage) claims he is the last of his kind. I made it known Elvhen live around the south but says it would not be as it was (after the veil was created) & I said that's the honest truth if I ever heard it and he laughed mischievously. During the night he showed me a mirror quite strange, an "eluvian" the Elvhen man swore had been in his family for... millennia

 

The first time I played Trespasser and read this I also thought of The Tirashan forest, a lot of weird crap is going on down there, including things with The Forgotten Ones and I truly hope we can investigate in DA4.

 

This journal had to be written during the era of ancient Alamarri tribes, it has to predate The Chasind and Avvar. Close to when Arlathan was falling, most likely before Tevinter destroyed the remnants.

 

The beast he talked about that destroyed his ship could very well be a cetus. I'm curious who the Elvhen was. Obviously he seems to have something to do with the fall. He could have participated in the rebellion and might have been an agent of the Forgotten Ones. He clearly does not see the "southern" Elvhen as his kin and almost mocks the downfall of Arlathan, like good riddance, which means he probably was a slave. Anyways I really enjoyed reading that codex and I'm glad other people payed attention to it

Edit* Im putting everything under a spoiler as a] this is a long post b] i am probably so wrong, lacking the lore knowledge the rest of you have so i dont spam the thread with my silliness

 

Spoiler

Where this journal is found there are drawings on the floor, could it mean anything or its just reusing the same artistry? (i think the first i didn't see elsewhere in game in this version, but i may be wrong?)

 

This points to Ghilan'nain in my mind.

 

Also, in trespasser we come to a jail through an eluvian that it seems it was a jail for beings Ghilan'nain (there is also a banner with andlers, no photo of it though) was experimenting on and what seems like a cetus? Maybe she made it?

 

In this journal this elvhen says it his beast - the cetus?- (or not his but belonged to 'his family' as the eluvian)?

Consider that 'in his family' means he was a follower. So, whose follower? The last of his kind could mean he is the last follower of this 'god'?

 

Could Ghilan'nain work with this 'god' and gave him the beast as a present? Could Ghilan'nain herself be the said god? (i suppose she had followers, why wouldnt she after being ascended?)

could Ghilan'nain be the one who betrayed them as an agent of the old gods, trying to get them powerful to fight back and brought something to the world that all went mayhem and solas tried to stop it with the veil? Solas says when he talks about betrayal that he can carve her face from memory (he seems to know her well, one of the pantheon i assume?)

Ghilan'nain seems to do weird things, i also remember the sinner story, who took wings at the urging of Ghilan'nain, she sounds very shady to me.

 

*****************

 

On another note, there is a codex for the jailer

This wiggling lines reminded me of the lines on the back of a statue (not very wiggly, but im trying to find a solution to the backmarks) said statue we see repeatingly in game, also in a bas relief (i know the rest of the description doesnt fit, meh), do we know who this statue might represent?)

 

Modifié par Abelis, 20 septembre 2015 - 09:36 .

[Abelis]

Gaxkang

-snip-

Well, Xebenkeck was a succubus, no? according to wiki, the forbidden ones showed the way to blood magic, so assume thats how Tevinter learned about blood magic?

 

“The first of the magus cast themselves deep in the Fade in search of answers and power, always power. They found the forbidden ones – Xebenkeck, Imshael, Gaxkang the Unbound, and The Formless One. Many conversations were had and much of the fabric of the world revealed. And thus the magic of blood was born.”

 

Also, about blood magic the wiki says

The first person known to wield blood magic (circa -1595 Ancient) is Archon Thalsian, a Neromenian dreamer. He claimed to learn the art after personally communicating with the Old God Dumat. Mages of the Imperial Chantry today argue that it is more likely that the blood magic was learned from the ancient elves of Elvhenan but there is no direct evidence of either stance being true.It may even have been that Thalsian or another mage simply made a deal with a demon.

 

There seem to be a confusion of who taught blodd magic, but i think all possible sources point to the same entities:

1) blood magic was learned from the ancient elves

about forbidden ones "A memory in Vir Dirthara portrays them as having once been one of the People". so they where ancient elves. link

 

2) It may even have been that Thalsian or another mage simply made a deal with a demon

The Forbidden Ones are a group of four unique and very powerful ancient demons.

 

3) He claimed to learn the art after personally communicating with the Old God Dumat

ok thismay be far fetched but here it is: If the forbidden ones and the forgotten ones belong to Xebenkeck's ilk that were exiled, then we have seven of them:  Anaris, Geldauran, Daern'thal, Gaxkang, Imshael, The Formless One and Xebenkeck. I've seen before trying to connect the evanuris to the old gods, why not try to connect the old gods to the forgotten/forbidden ones? And in both groups there is an eight 'god' who seems to have dealings with both groups aka Solas/Dread wolf, dual natured, both evanuris and forbidden/forgotten/old god, black and white statues.

This way we have two groups of 'gods' that include all. Sounds simpler.

 

Also i think she holds something like a snake? (very Tevinter-ish! )

Spoiler

 

Lastly, number 7 is weird being the thing all around and brings to mind the 7 sins: wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony

 

If this group of gods represents these sins:

Lust=Xebenkeck desire daemon,

Gluttony=Imshael (“You offer me a stately dinner, when what I want is the ravening, bare-fisted gluttony of a starving man.”)

Sloth (Failing to develop spiritually will lead to becoming sloth)=The Formless One

wrath (violence, anger) = Gaxkang? (warrior, I cannot hide in your wake, but I will not be a footnote) could be envy?

(Not much info for the rest to much till now, ill give it more thought )

 

What doesn't fit, is pride which should be the dread wolf. So maybe this train of thought is totally wrong..

[FrankWisdom]

 

(Irrelevant: I love Inception  )

I may have missed out on how you see the world in the opening post, I was reading it all in one sitting, but are you saying the Fade and the unchanging world are one world, its' "stillest roots" are the unchanging world and that the Fade-y parts affect the physics of the unchanging world? Because otherwise I don't understand your vision.

Anyhow, I personally think that while we do have a lot of evidence, we don't have enough to determine how to world really looked like.

When you quote "Imagine if spirits entered freely. The Fade was not a place one went, but of state of nature like the wind", I take the word "entered" literally, imagining spirits passing from one layer to another (from the Fade to the unchanging world) and imagine the Fade existing separately but still affecting the unchanging world.

'Tis is a matter of interpretation, your arguments are compelling but I still imagine the world in a different manner.

 

 

"but are you saying the Fade and the unchanging world are one world, its' "stillest roots" are the unchanging world and that the Fade-y parts affect the physics of the unchanging world."

 

No lol. Yeah sorry, I wish I could have a sit-down conversation with you to explain fully what I mean using gestures and the like to express my thoughts

 

the "stillest roots" found in the fade (like I tried to explain in my previous post) are still part of the fade but found in its center (think of the big bang, the origin of creation for example) where everything expanded from... Well the point of origin would be the stillest roots. That's why I used the supermassive black hole as my example. Its mass and gravitational pull influences our galaxy and the closer you get the more time "stands still". That is what I see when I hear "stillest roots" when the context is describing an unchanging world the "supermassive black hole" being the stillest roots while the "galaxy" around it is The Raw Fade. The "Fade-y" parts do affect the physics of the unchanging world, that's what "magic" is. That's why its affects were so much more potent without the veil. Magic is essentially "Fade essence" channeled through the physical by using your spirit, i.e. your "will" which is what connects all things to The Fade (unconsciously and consciously).

 

"Imagine if spirits entered freely. The Fade was not a place one went, but of state of nature like the wind"

 

This to me is a description meant to create a concept familiar to people who only understand the dynamics of the unchanging world. Like I've posited before, I believe both worlds interact in a state of balance but are not "one world". The state of nature like the wind comment is to express that The Fade is always present, felt but not seen in a physical manner (when on earth). It can be channeled to affect the unchanging world but is not "part" of it (fundamentally). That's why I believe Uthenera was used. Elvhen people now lived with physical bodies but were still constantly connected, influenced and empowered by The Fade. To journey and explore it's deepest recesses, they needed to "fully" be spirits so the connection was as "pure" as possible

 

Birds of fancy shows that they could manifest aspects of both "natures" but were never just spirit or just physical, it was a balance struck within them. Uthenera let your spirit be "unshackled" to roam The deep Fade without shedding their physical forms (like Xebenkeck and the other Forbidden Ones did).

 

As for "a dream within dream". Think of an ocean. Now think of oxygen bubbles scattered throughout. The bubbles are realms created by the Elves, sustained by magic and created with their wills (as shown with Raising the Sonallium Codex).

 

Dreams are formed in the current Fade (post-veil in the same manner, but not "hidden" per se) They are described as floating fiefdoms that can be seen. The more powerful the demon or dreamer (and the stronger its will) , the bigger and more detailed the "island" created is. What is important to understand is that they are all "impermanent" and subject to change. Because they reflect the emotions, thoughts and memories of other beings, they only remain as an imprint. As something that "Fades" hence the name given to it by mortals.

 

"The Fade may appear as something else entirely when shaped by dreams. Much of the Fade is split up into fiefs or demesnes belonging to the spirits or demons that live there, and they change the landscape of the Fade to emulate what they see in the minds of mortal dreamers. They copy locations, objects, people and concepts of the real world, often in a cruel or confusing way. These copies are nowhere near consistent, and fluctuate according to the movement of the dreamers. Spirits whose realms are flocked with visitors rise to rule great portions of the Fade, while memories and concepts forgotten in the real world slowly drift away back into the ether, the spirits who ruled them losing all potency.^[11]"

 

 

Example. In raising the Sonallium the description states that 1000 elves are channeling essence from The Fade into a "sphere". The are described as being on an island in "the void" (meaning they are in The Raw Fade).

 

i.e. In Dragon Age: Until We Sleep, chapter 3 Aurelian Titus says that "there are void places, gaps between dreams" referring to the raw Fade.

 

Then the codex talks about looking into the "lens" of the sphere and seeing a world filled with indigo waterfalls and rust-colored jungles. That is your oxygen bubble within the ocean "waters of The Fade". That's what a pocket-dimension is, that's what the crossroads is.

 

Also the fact that you can actually walk The Fade physically means that was also something which could be done pre-veil. I believe the Golden City was created physically within The Fade, which is why The Magisters needed to reach it physically to unlock it, why Corypheus needed to go back physically and why Solas needs to get into The Fade physically with The power of the Mark.

 

I think  "permanent change"  in a place like The Fade can only be applied if the unchanging (physical) is what shapes something within it. That counterbalance is essential, which again, brings forth the Golden City, the only "permanent" visible structure within The "raw" Fade.

 

Same thing with the crossroads type dimensions and Elvhen cities on earth. I believe they were all created through the use of both the physical and The Fade, which is why they are intrinsically linked.

 

The Vir Dirthara is proof of concept. When one aspect (The Fade) was cut off from the realm because of the veil, it was sundered and fell apart, as what sustained it was no longer present. The difference here is that these crossroads type realms are shaped by Elves to encompass both aspects. They use the essence of The Fade and bind it to the physical, creating something in-between.

 

So that's the big difference with the cities they created "on earth" and how they traveled within the deepest Fade or the "pocket-dimensions" they created. They combined both "worlds" to create something new, though fundamentally, The Fade and the "unchanging world" are of two different aspects of the same coin, both exist as a counterbalance. The "spirit" and "the physical". They both represent something different yet can be used in unison to create something new.

 

I don't think I can break it down anymore than this. I really hope I explained my thoughts clearly and that you understand how I see it

 

 

Edit: "I'm not sure why, but when the archivist quotes the last words of the ancient elves I can help but laugh, even though it's rather tragic."

 

Lol, you're not the only one...

[FrankWisdom]

Edit* Im putting everything under a spoiler as a] this is a long post b] i am probably so wrong, lacking the lore knowledge the rest of you have so i dont spam the thread with my silliness

 

Spoiler

Where this journal is found there are drawings on the floor, could it mean anything or its just reusing the same artistry? (i think the first i didn't see elsewhere in game in this version, but i may be wrong?)

 

This points to Ghilan'nain in my mind.

 

Also, in trespasser we come to a jail through an eluvian that it seems it was a jail for beings Ghilan'nain (there is also a banner with andlers, no photo of it though) was experimenting on and what seems like a cetus? Maybe she made it?

 

In this journal this elvhen says it his beast - the cetus?- (or not his but belonged to 'his family' as the eluvian)?

Consider that 'in his family' means he was a follower. So, whose follower? The last of his kind could mean he is the last follower of this 'god'?

 

Could Ghilan'nain work with this 'god' and gave him the beast as a present? Could Ghilan'nain herself be the said god? (i suppose she had followers, why wouldnt she after being ascended?)

could Ghilan'nain be the one who betrayed them as an agent of the old gods, trying to get them powerful to fight back and brought something to the world that all went mayhem and solas tried to stop it with the veil? Solas says when he talks about betrayal that he can carve her face from memory (he seems to know her well, one of the pantheon i assume?)

Ghilan'nain seems to do weird things, i also remember the sinner story, who took wings at the urging of Ghilan'nain, she sounds very shady to me.

 

*****************

 

On another note, there is a codex for the jailer

This wiggling lines reminded me of the lines on the back of a statue (not very wiggly, but im trying to find a solution to the backmarks) said statue we see repeatingly in game, also in a bas relief (i know the rest of the description doesnt fit, meh), do we know who this statue might represent?)

 

 

Nice catch of the Artwork, yes it could have been somehow tied to Ghilan'nain. The drawing of the "cestus" in Ghilan'nain's experimentation "holding" facility is also a nice catch.

 

"In this journal this elvhen says it his beast - the cetus?- (or not his but belonged to 'his family' as the eluvian)?

Consider that 'in his family' means he was a follower. So, whose follower? The last of his kind could mean he is the last follower of this 'god'?"

 

He actually simply says that it (the eluvian) has been in his family for... and it doesn't specify the amount of time, but I think it was to detail he was an ancient elvhen.

 

As for the statues. They were actually created by the Avvar during the first blight. They represent the embodiment of fear (of darkspawn and the taint) and they were erected as guardians and warnings, a monument to their gods, asking for their protection.

[FrankWisdom]

Well, Xebenkeck was a succubus, no? according to wiki, the forbidden ones showed the way to blood magic, so assume thats how Tevinter learned about blood magic?

 

“The first of the magus cast themselves deep in the Fade in search of answers and power, always power. They found the forbidden ones – Xebenkeck, Imshael, Gaxkang the Unbound, and The Formless One. Many conversations were had and much of the fabric of the world revealed. And thus the magic of blood was born.”

 

Also, about blood magic the wiki says

The first person known to wield blood magic (circa -1595 Ancient) is Archon Thalsian, a Neromenian dreamer. He claimed to learn the art after personally communicating with the Old God Dumat. Mages of the Imperial Chantry today argue that it is more likely that the blood magic was learned from the ancient elves of Elvhenan but there is no direct evidence of either stance being true.It may even have been that Thalsian or another mage simply made a deal with a demon.

 

There seem to be a confusion of who taught blodd magic, but i think all possible sources point to the same entities:

1) blood magic was learned from the ancient elves

about forbidden ones "A memory in Vir Dirthara portrays them as having once been one of the People". so they where ancient elves. link

 

2) It may even have been that Thalsian or another mage simply made a deal with a demon

The Forbidden Ones are a group of four unique and very powerful ancient demons.

 

3) He claimed to learn the art after personally communicating with the Old God Dumat

ok thismay be far fetched but here it is: If the forbidden ones and the forgotten ones belong to Xebenkeck's ilk that were exiled, then we have seven of them:  Anaris, Geldauran, Daern'thal, Gaxkang, Imshael, The Formless One and Xebenkeck. I've seen before trying to connect the evanuris to the old gods, why not try to connect the old gods to the forgotten/forbidden ones? And in both groups there is an eight 'god' who seems to have dealings with both groups aka Solas/Dread wolf, dual natured, both evanuris and forbidden/forgotten/old god, black and white statues.

This way we have two groups of 'gods' that include all. Sounds simpler.

 

 

The Forgotten Ones were said to reside in a realm where even The Evanuris couldn't dwell in for a long time. They were also compared to the Evanuris as their equals, their "opposites". Xebenkeck and the other Forbidden Ones don't fill that role, they are grunts compared to what the Forgotten Ones were, supposedly. (though given how the Evanuris were depicted, I have no doubt that The Forgotten Ones' roles were also ripe with propaganda and slander). Maybe, in their search for power, they found and harnessed "blight magic" which is what led the Elvhen people to ascribe disease, terror, spite and malevolence with their nature.

 

Xebenkeck and her ilk's natures were clearly defined, as was her role and her position comapred to the Pantheon. She was a deserter who chose to flee a war in which the people needed her, probably the war against the Titans.

 

She and her Ilk shed their phyical forms and escaped in the far reaches of The Fade. They were bound as punishment by the Evanuris and could no longer take shape, which is why they still need to possess mortals so long after the Evanuris are trapped.

 

Besides, we know the names of all the forbidden ones, and there are only four. We know of three Forgotten Ones however, who are named (which aren't the Forbidden Ones) and it is said their are more that we as of yet have not been informed of (meaning they are not the Forbidden Ones, at least that's the way I see it).

[Abelis]

Hmm..I'll try giving it more thought. I just think there are too many of them (evanuris, old gods, forbidden, forgotten), tried to sum up to fewer

[Abelis]

one last note on number 7

is there a significance that in the black circle surrounding this innermost, are 14 'eyes'?'heads'?'pillars'? this 7 number is so weird. Ehh im off to sleep, pretty late, also better to clear my head