232 réponses à ce sujet

[htisscrimbliv]

I mean, in all honesty, is it? I mean everyone dying aside, would it actually be a better option in the long run?

[kathic]

Death is bad, mmmm kay?

[solomon.kosin]

Who knows. Maybe in the long-long-long run it will be even better. But who knows how many will die in suffering before the happy-en will eventually come?

 

I also suppose Solas will die himself with destroyng the Veil

[vertigomez]

Yes, yes it is. 'Cause "everyone dying" is not something one can just put aside.

eta; I just realized what Solas's plan reminds me of. Anybody seen Serenity?

Spoiler

Mal: "So that's it, then? Me and mine just have to roll over and die so you can go live in your perfect world?!"
The Operative: "Mal... I'm not going to live there. There would be no place for me, anymore than you. I'm a monster. What I do is evil, but it must be done."
...
Mal: "I don't murder children."
The Operative: "I do. If I have to."

[TobiTobsen]

I'll be honest, I sometimes think it's best. Everything has gone wrong. So wrong. Yet at the same time the hope, love, friendships, faith and beauty of the world gives me pause and I feel that a few good heroes making a difference is better than starting over and possibly just making all the same mistakes again. You can't change the past. You can only go forward. It's something Solas needs to accept.

 

I'm not sure that I understand what exactly has gone wrong?

 

A decadent empire was brought low by Solas actions and new civilizations took it's place. That's the way of life. It has happend before and will happen again.

[Lady Elsa]

Using an extreme short-cut solution to try to 'fix' the world into his own warped idea of perfection? At the expense of many innocent lives? Nope. Solas could do a lot of good for the elves and others if he chose to, if he could relinquish his pride and narrow-minded views and let go of the past.  

[htisscrimbliv]

Yes, yes it is. 'Cause "everyone dying" is not something one can just put aside.

But one could argue that those who are dying are doing so for the greater good, a better world.

[vertigomez]

But one could argue that those who are dying are doing so for the greater good, a better world.

Better according to whom?

If somebody tried to kill my family because it might possibly perhaps make the world better, I'd tell them to **** off.

[Hellion Rex]

I mean, in all honesty, is it? I mean everyone dying aside, would it actually be a better option in the long run?

You're joking right? Just because he's mad that his world is gone, we should totally just roll over and play dead to let an elven supremacist resurrect a society that should have ended eons ago.

[htisscrimbliv]

You're joking right? Just because he's mad that his world is gone, we should totally just roll over and play dead to let an elven supremacist resurrect a society that should have ended eons ago.

But the question is would that world be a better alternative to the one we're in?

[TeaLulu]

We have NO IDEA what life was like under the Evanuris. All we have are codexes and vague imagery, and all of those seem to point to mass slavery on a scale unlike we've seen since ancient Tevinter.

 

It was not the slavery that made Solas trap the Evanuris. It was not the war. It was not the unfortunate state of the Gods feuding. Evidence pointing to the murder of Titans, the stealing of Dwarven resources/land and possible enslavement of Dwarves, Solas even SAYS the elves enslaved elves, humans, and dwarves alike.

 

The catalyst for Solas' actions was the death of one of the Evanuris. Thats it. The mass slavery, the suffering, whatever else was going on that we don't know about (all magic likely stems from the elves: The foci, which the Tevinter later learned of, I would suspect Blood Magic came from the Elves too, etc) Solas even says that Arlathan was no more innocent than Minrathous in it's day. One woman is murdered, and suddenly it was veil time.

 

We also have no idea the extent of Solas' relationship with the Evanuris. Ancient elven lore states the Creators considered him to be one of their own; Evidence we find in the game supports this. The Dales: Exalted Plains, the Citadelle du Corbeau is surrounded by wolf statues and has a GIANT wolf carved out of the mountain behind it. It is clearly ancient, pre-arlathan, considering the insane magic within (the pew pew laser). So here is what was probably one of Fen'Harel's bases, the post-arlathan elves would not have built such a thing...surrounded by shrines/places dedicated to other gods. Ghilan'nain's grove, there's a place to Andruil in the same area I believe, etc.

 

Also, the crossroads we visit in Trespasser are full of things representing and dedicated to other gods, even though it seems to be a valley for Fen'harel's followers. Why is there so much mixture of Fen'Harel and the other gods if he was their long time enemy? Was he truly against them the ENTIRE time the Evanuris ruled?

 

At this point, it is far too early to make a conclusion as to whether or not what Solas wants is in fact "A good thing", even forgetting all the murder and death and chaos and suffering the act itself would invoke.

 

Is the world of the ancient elves that he so wishes to bring back worth it? We don't know enough ABOUT that world to say. It is far too early to make a conclusion on whether or not what Solas wants would be good for even the Elvhen, let alone the entire world and rest of the races.

 

Even if the Elves become immortal again (Assuming it doesn't ONLY benefit those who are ancient elves and were born before the Veil), it very likely would be an eternity of slavery to more powerful beings, or at the very least a classist society were the "new race" of elves is looked down upon by the "old", and the other races are looked down upon even further.

[TobiTobsen]

All the things we learned? Templars torturing Mages, mages being made Tranquil, a cure for it kept hidden. Corruption everywhere. Red Lyrium covering Thedas. The Blight and OG trapped below with Darkspawn. Elves being enslaved, dwarves unable to dream, Qunari prepared to take over... it's all one big mess that 3 people tried to pick up the pieces of, but only became part of something greater and worse.

This is what Solas saw when he awoke a year before DAI.

And before that we had elves enslaving elves, dwarves being mindless immune systems for the titans, no barriers between the fade and the real world and power drunken megalomaniacs, fancying themselves gods with fitting powers, destroying the world to stroke their own egos.

I'll take a world with "mundane" problems over Solas "utopia" every time.

[JadeDragon]

Regardless of if it may be better or not its literally one man trying to change the world for millions because he thinks his idea is better. its not like he is trying to convince the people of a better world he is forcing it upon them with a possibility of those people dying. Forcing your ideal world upon others is always wrong so yea it is bad because what's good for one person is bad for another

[Mr.House]

Shepard was really Solas afterall.

[Hellion Rex]

But the question is would that world be a better alternative to the one we're in?

If you're not an elf, you're screwed. Of course that's the worst option.

 

I would rather have what Solas denounces as a broken and decrepit world than that elven supremacist society he wants to rule

[Hellion Rex]

Shepard was really Solas afterall.

*le gasp*

[Tootles FTW]

Well, we don't know enough to gauge what would be better "in the long run".  Certainly it's been established that mankind/elfkind will never change - war, greed, and power will always end up polluting the waters, no matter if the Veil is in place or not.  But as far as the world itself, it's debatable.  

If the Veil was torn down, would the dwarves fertility issues and lack of dreams disappear?  

Would mages stop being threatened by demons?  

Would the Blight and darkspawn be eradicated?  

Would red lyrium not exist?  

Would the world be "healed", essentially, from possible damage it has sustained with the Veil in place?  I have NO idea.

 

It's easier to answer the short-run question (which is a big "hell no") because we happen to be one of the idiots that live in the current Thedas.

[Lady Elsa]

Is the world of the ancient elves that he so wishes to bring back worth it? We don't know enough ABOUT that world to say. It is far too early to make a conclusion on whether or not what Solas wants would be good for even the Elvhen, let alone the entire world and rest of the races.

 

Even if the Elves become immortal again (Assuming it doesn't ONLY benefit those who are ancient elves and were born before the Veil), it very likely would be an eternity of slavery to more powerful beings, or at the very least a classist society were the "new race" of elves is looked down upon by the "old", and the other races are looked down upon even further.

 

Exactly, we don't know, and what we do know doesn't sound all that nice. Also do all the elves want immortality? Has he asked them? Do all the spirits want the veil torn down now that they have existed apart? Solas wants to impose his will, his vision on the present. That is not the way to make things better.

 

 

And before that we had elves enslaving elves, dwarves being mindless immune systems for the titans, no barriers between the fade and the real world and power drunken megalomaniacs fancying themselves gods with fitting powers destroying the world to stroke their own egos.

I'll take a world with "mundane" problems over Solas "utopia" every time.

 

It always felt like Solas was romanticising his world, downplaying its problematic aspects in his mind or perhaps hoping he can fix them/prevent them occurring a second time. It is again his pride talking.

[Hellion Rex]

Is the world of the ancient elves that he so wishes to bring back worth it? We don't know enough ABOUT that world to say. It is far too early to make a conclusion on whether or not what Solas wants would be good for even the Elvhen, let alone the entire world and rest of the races.

I agree in the sense that we need more info, but at the same time, I don't think there is any possible "world of the ancient elves" that would make the genocide of any non-elven people justified. Ever.  The ancient elves just need to stay dead at this point. Their time is over.

[TeaLulu]

I agree in the sense that we need more info, but at the same time, I don't think there is any possible "world of the ancient elves" that would make the genocide of any non-elven people justified. Ever.  The ancient elves just need to stay dead at this point. Their time is over.

I'm talking in the sense of both options people have floated around

 

1) Solas goes through with his chaos crazy plan, everybody is murderlated - Absolutely unacceptable no matter what in my opinion, to be frank. And I'm a Solasmancer.

 

2) There may be a way to gently bring down the Veil without all the murder and chaos, that Solas isn't aware of. - Would this be worth it if, for the elves (as the humans, dwarves, etc would still be alive and still able to function as they currently do, in theory), their ancient "world" is brought back? aka, they retrieve lost lands (Such as the MASS tracts of land we see travelling through the Eluvians in Trespasser), but also all those ancient powers are restored?

 

 

The trouble with the "World" of the ancient elves being restored, even IF it can be done peacefully and without mass murder, is the fact that we have no idea what that world was really like! Solas can pretend all he likes that if he "deals with" the Evanuris, everything will be sparkles and glitter for the Elves, but theres no way thats true. People would, inevitably, rise to fill the mass power vacuum left by the Evanuris  - both magical power, political power, and the fact the Elven religion would have then been completely destroyed by these revelations and the Elves would have no religion and basically no culture.

[Reznore57]

Yes it's bad.

There's a great chance , blight , archdemons , red lyrium are all the elves's fault.

They had great magic , great power and like everything after a while it went out of hand , we're talking about what 9 people who messed up and a whole civilization fell apart , the nature of the world had to be changed , and the elves had to give up also part of their nature.

 

That's like if seven people nuked our world with atom bomb , then some people survived , managed to strive and let's say I don't know everyone is now blind .

Then a guy shows up say "Dudes , you're blind , and yeah you managed to rebuild societies and stuff but you're now abominations."

So I'm going to nuke you too , and bring back my people who could build atom bombs again...we were all napping in some cryo ponds , so I'm sure we all had time to think long and hard about what went wrong.Unlike you abominations , who had to actually live through the whole catastrophe.