232 réponses à ce sujet

[TastesLikeTNT]

Demons like Nightmare are one part of the problem. The others would be Solas "colleagues". The last time he couldn't kill them, so he created the veil. Now his plan is... removing the veil?

 

 

Does he even have a plan? Besides "I'm sure this time everything will turn out for the best!"?

So he breaks down the veil, kills millions in the ensuring chaos, the rest gets eaten by demons and his god buddies, he can't stop them (again) and then what?

Third time's a charm?

 

That, apparently, seems to be his plan.

 

I would suggest another plan for him: sit in a corner and Don't. Touch. Anything.

[Reznore57]

What will happen to the darkspawn under Solas' plan? Will they be destroyed? Or will bringing down the Veil turn them into super-charged monstrosities?

 

Remember, darkspawn originated in the Fade, or at least the Blight did. I'm afraid that he's just going to make things worse.

 

The Blight doesn't spread in the Fade .It seems it only influence the material world.

It seems the elves used to be spirits like and could probably shift between Thedas and the Fade...jumping bodies deals with the Blight but well they wouldn't be able to do this forever I imagine.

Besides we still don't know what the hell is carrying the Blight in the Golden City , it's possible it's a place without veil where the world is whole...the last piece of the ancient world. If this is the case, well the Blight is going to spread everywhere like wildfire.

[thats1evildude]

A few thousand? I'm pretty sure his plans calls for the deaths of millions.

[diaspora2k5]

From Solas' point of view:

Everyone in the world right now is essentially tranquil. In DA2 Ander's BF begs us to kill him rather than letting him return to being tranquil (Ditto for DA:Asunder mage). Even mages in todays Thedas are less than what they were pre-veil. To Solas' mind he is bring about a change that won't (despite everyone's over exaggeration) kill everyone, but will cause thousands of deaths and massive destruction. It will elevate the survivor's to the level they should have been at all along, and he plans on sacrificing himself to keep the Evanuris from returning. It is the greater good in his mind. A few thousand die today so that no-one else will ever die again (elves (and maybe even humans) were immortal pre-veil).

 

It is important to note since everyone is going way overboard; NOT EVERYONE WILL DIE. Solas himself says it will destroy the world, but he means that figuratively, just like putting up the veil destroyed his world. More survived than died, but societies collapsed and thousands died. Bringing down the veil would likely have the same effect: More will survive the event than will die, but all kingdoms and societies will be in flux and everything will change.

Solas straight up tells you he doesn't even believe that anymore. The friend he killed Felassen changed his mind too.

 

edit: The Blight isn't from the Fade, Avernus proves that IIRC.

[myahele]

Yeah, even if he manage to keep the evnuris locked away (doubtful) there are still powerful demons, will tearing the veil weaken him the same way it weakened him when he created it?

 

Then there's the many other powerful demons, then the 4 forbidden ones and the fact that Cole says that Spirits retreated to the deeper fade. Many of the ancient elvhen are killed, now there's a few of them left. These few might also have a difference of opinions, some might even still worship the Evanuris.

 

How will they even begin to recreate the lost technologies? It's like trying to recreate TVs without any of the necessary parts: even if you know how to make it, you'll need to make all the parts (wires, chips, etc) which needs to be recreated too.

[The Night Haunter]

A few thousand? I'm pretty sure his plans calls for the deaths of millions.

I doubt there are millions. Thedas is pre-agricultural revolution. Even with magic aiding crops (we never even see evidence of this I am just giving you benefit of the doubt) there are maybe a hundred thousand people in Val Royeaux. Half that in other capitals (except for Minrathous which probably matches Val Royeaux), and vastly smaller populations in other cities, and miniscule populations in towns. Thedas probably has a population of 2 Million, 3 tops.

 

If you go back 200 years in the real world the population drops to less than a Billion (1/7th of todays). That is about 400 years of technology ahead of Thedas (apart from Qunari, whom it is only 200-300 years ahead).

 

And if you want in universe numbers DA:Stolen Throne and DA:Asunder give some numbers on army sizes and mage numbers which act as indicators to nations population sizes)

[Lunatic Lace]

From Solas' point of view:

Everyone in the world right now is essentially tranquil. In DA2 Ander's BF begs us to kill him rather than letting him return to being tranquil (Ditto for DA:Asunder mage). Even mages in todays Thedas are less than what they were pre-veil. To Solas' mind he is bring about a change that won't (despite everyone's over exaggeration) kill everyone, but will cause thousands of deaths and massive destruction. It will elevate the survivor's to the level they should have been at all along, and he plans on sacrificing himself to keep the Evanuris from returning. It is the greater good in his mind. A few thousand die today so that no-one else will ever die again (elves (and maybe even humans) were immortal pre-veil).

 

It is important to note since everyone is going way overboard; NOT EVERYONE WILL DIE. Solas himself says it will destroy the world, but he means that figuratively, just like putting up the veil destroyed his world. More survived than died, but societies collapsed and thousands died. Bringing down the veil would likely have the same effect: More will survive the event than will die, but all kingdoms and societies will be in flux and everything will change.

 

I could be wrong, and please correct me if I am, but didn't he state something along the lines of the cost of restoring the ancient elves was the complete wipe of the other races? Something along the lines of him telling the inquisitor that all of their people would need to be removed?

[The Night Haunter]

Solas straight up tells you he doesn't even believe that anymore. The friend he killed Felassen changed his mind too.

 

edit: The Blight isn't from the Fade, Avernus proves that IIRC.

He says he sees there is good, but even with that people are less than they were. They aren't at the level of tranquil to him, but they aren't full people either.

 

Also: to all those saying he is a racist, i think it is more that he believes in magic than in any specific people. He is a bit racist, and seems to believe Elves have the highest potential, but I don't think he wants to create a world without humans or dwarves, or even to subjugate them. He just wants all the magic to return.

[The Night Haunter]

I could be wrong, and please correct me if I am, but didn't he state something along the lines of the cost of restoring the ancient elves was the complete wipe of the other races? Something along the lines of him telling the inquisitor that all of their people would need to be removed?

No he doesn't. He just says it will destroy the world. Earlier in that same speech he said raising the Veil destroyed the world too, so it seems likely (not definitive of course) that the two events would be of comparable magnitude). Dwarves existed pre-veil (Descent codexes- war with the Scaled Ones [whom I really want to see!!], Tresspasser - Mythal kills a titan), and humans probably did too. I belive he is just saying his actions will result in mass destruction, not the end of every life on the planet (human, dwarf or elf).

[thats1evildude]

I doubt there are millions. Thedas is pre-agricultural revolution. Even with magic aiding crops (we never even see evidence of this I am just giving you benefit of the doubt) there are maybe a hundred thousand people in Val Royeaux. Half that in other capitals (except for Minrathous which probably matches Val Royeaux), and vastly smaller populations in other cities, and miniscule populations in towns. Thedas probably has a population of 2 Million, 3 tops.

 

If you go back 200 years in the real world the population drops to less than a Billion (1/7th of todays). That is about 400 years of technology ahead of Thedas (apart from Qunari, whom it is only 200-300 years ahead).

 

I'm pretty sure there were several hundred thousand people in Kirkwall. And Ferelden's pre-Blight population was said to be around one million.

 

Let's keep in mind that there are quite a few people living on isolated farms, villages, etc.

[vertigomez]

All the things we learned? Templars torturing Mages, mages being made Tranquil, a cure for it kept hidden. Corruption everywhere. Red Lyrium covering Thedas. The Blight and OG trapped below with Darkspawn. Elves being enslaved, dwarves unable to dream, Qunari prepared to take over... it's all one big mess that 3 people tried to pick up the pieces of, but only became part of something greater and worse.
 
This is what Solas saw when he awoke a year before DAI.

Who says dwarves need to dream? Solas himself said that it was just amaaazeballs what dwarves can come up with despite being cut off from the Fade.

It's almost as if they don't need or want his help at all. >____>

[Reznore57]

I could be wrong, and please correct me if I am, but didn't he state something along the lines of the cost of restoring the ancient elves was the complete wipe of the other races? Something along the lines of him telling the inquisitor that all of their people would need to be removed?

 

It's possible Elves could survive , in the Masked Empire , when people go in the Crossroad , a material plane closer to the Fade than current Thedas...elves even current ones are fine.

Humans on the other hand have headaches and suffer.

It should be worse in a world without the veil.

I think current elves would have headaches and humans etc would probably start bleeding through their eyeballs.

[The Night Haunter]

I'm pretty sure there were several hundred thousand people in Kirkwall.

 

And let's keep in mind that there are quite a few people living on isolated farms, villages, etc.

Kirkwall isn't large enough for that many people, and I can't recall any codexes that state numbers. Plus there were maybe a few hundred Qunari there, how could a few hundred Qunari menace a city of 100k people? Even with just pitchforks they would drown the Qunari. Back in medieval times it was much harder for small groups to invade and subjugate, machine guns made it much easier today.

[Navasha]

I imagine it would be bad and probably would be similar to what happened when the veil first came down.   Solas now sees the creation of the veil as a huge mistake that cost the elves far more than he thought.     To him, it destroyed the world.   The elves lost their immortality and culture.   The blight probably wouldn't even be an issue if the elven mages with their vast power still existed.   The land became infested with humans who basically just enslaved the elves anyway and then went on to pick apart the corpse of the elven culture.  

 

He simply wants to undo his mistake.    He could make for a very interesting antagonistic character though.   Probably would work to try to remove the veil AND save as many people as he can from the resulting flood of magic and chaos. 

[The Night Haunter]

It's possible Elves could survive , in the Masked Empire , when people go in the Crossroad , a material plane closer to the Fade than current Thedas...elves even current ones are fine.

Humans on the other hand have headaches and suffer.

It should be worse in a world without the veil.

I think current elves would have headaches and humans etc would probably start bleeding through their eyeballs.

The Eluvian dimension isn't the fade. It is seperate. Removing the veil wouldn't be like going to the crossroads, it would be like the fade walk, and you notice everyone was physically ok during that event at adamant. Most of the deaths would be due to people using magic unconsciously, because everyone would be a mage. Also hostile spirits are much more populous now than they were during the Evanuris' time (based off the fact that the Evanuris could banish them completely from their realms), so that would contribute to the death toll. 

But I doubt the mere fact of the veil removal would inherently kill anyone.

[TastesLikeTNT]

I doubt there are millions. Thedas is pre-agricultural revolution. Even with magic aiding crops (we never even see evidence of this I am just giving you benefit of the doubt) there are maybe a hundred thousand people in Val Royeaux. Half that in other capitals (except for Minrathous which probably matches Val Royeaux), and vastly smaller populations in other cities, and miniscule populations in towns. Thedas probably has a population of 2 Million, 3 tops.

 

 

The death toll of the Black Plague was from 75 to 200 million people in Eurasia, so I don't think it's an unreasonable estimate.

[thats1evildude]

Kirkwall isn't large enough for that many people, and I can't recall any codexes that state numbers. Plus there were maybe a few hundred Qunari there, how could a few hundred Qunari menace a city of 100k people? Even with just pitchforks they would drown the Qunari. Back in medieval times it was much harder for small groups to invade and subjugate, machine guns made it much easier today.

 

Well, let's keep in mind that there were sections of Kirkwall we never seen, a web of neighbourhoods and back alleys. As well, the city population includes people living on outlying farms who bring food into the city.

 

As to how the qunari were able to nearly take over Kirkwall, they used fires and magic to cut off certain sections of the city. Their forces were also supplemented by elves from the Alienage.

[Lunatic Lace]

No he doesn't. He just says it will destroy the world. Earlier in that same speech he said raising the Veil destroyed the world too, so it seems likely (not definitive of course) that the two events would be of comparable magnitude). Dwarves existed pre-veil (Descent codexes- war with the Scaled Ones [whom I really want to see!!], Tresspasser - Mythal kills a titan), and humans probably did too. I belive he is just saying his actions will result in mass destruction, not the end of every life on the planet (human, dwarf or elf).

 

"The return of my people means the end of yours." Not just the world, but the end of the people in it. As far as I know this is not specific to any race you might have chosen for your inquisitor.

 

And when asked why he bothered helping the inquisition and the people in the first place if he was just going to end everything:

 

"I am not a monster. If they must die I would rather they die in comfort."

 

I think you're being a little optimistic. Even saying "oh, he doesn't intend to kill everyone, just MOSTLY everyone" as a defense is pretty silly.

[thats1evildude]

During the final centuries of the Roman Empire, its population was still around 50 million people, even after plagues and warfare. And Rome wasn't even nearly up to the level of Thedas' technology.

[The Night Haunter]

The death toll of the Black Plague was from 75 to 200 million people in Eurasia, so I don't think it's an unreasonable estimate.

In total, the plague reduced the world population from an estimated 450 million down to 350–375 million in the 14th century.

 

This is from Wikipedia (not the best source but fair enough for a discussion here). So the entire world add less than 1/2 a million people in the 14th century (about 100 years ahead of Thedas using gunpowder/weapons-tech and heavy industry as guidelines).

 

Thedas is a continent about the size of Europe (not Eurasia, as to my mind all of Thedas would fit in the continental US which is smaller than China, which is only 1/3 of Asia). This is all subjective of course, no hard numbers on either size or population have been given in DA. The closest is in Stolen Throne when an army of a few thousand is considered large, which indicates a national population of less than a million. (During war times in medieval Europe approximately 5% of the population would be conscripted in total.) So if 20k is the size of the Ferelden Army that gives approximately 400k people in Ferelden.

 

We could of course argue this more, but neither of us is 'right' because Thedas is a fantasy world where real world rules don't apply and until the writers give an answer to Thedas population we will never know. But to my mind there are maybe 3 million people in Thedas.

[Dancing_Dolphin]

Seems like whenever the Dread Wolf tries to make something better, things turn out worse because he neglected to account for a few things. So assuming that what he plans to do for the old elves will somehow be better than the way things are now in Thedas is a *huge* assumption. I mean maybe some things would improve, but other things, as others have pointed out, could get a lot worse.

[dawnstone]

I mean, in all honesty, is it? I mean everyone dying aside, would it actually be a better option in the long run?

It is bad only because of the speculated death toll.

 

If the Veil could be removed slowly or gradually, and the world turned back to its natural state, I think it would be better for everyone. As the Veil existing is not the natural state of the world, there are multitudes of problems with magic users and spirits getting corrupted, and entire races - the dwarves and the elves being unable to reach their full potential. Also, since with enough magic, basically any idiot can destabilize it, the Veil will always be at risk of being destroyed and causing cataclysmic change. Until it is dealt with safely, the world at large will be sitting under another axe (the one that isn't the darkspawn problem).

 

Even if Solas doesn't succeed, and you kill him/talk him out of it, there is still the matter of Mythal wanting it down to have her revenge on the Evanuris. There are three existing prophecies about the Veil coming down and the Evanuris escaping from prison - one in the Chant of Light, one from Sandal, and one from Eleni Zinovia (Archon Hessarian's mother). It is going to happen and people are going to die - the Canticle of Exaltations even speaks of a great fire burning down Minathrous right before Andraste and the Maker return. It's going to be crazy.

 

Mythal is pulling the strings (Hawke's strings, the Champion's strings, Solas' strings), and she will find a way with or without Solas (most likely with), just like she'll find a new host (probably Morrigan).

[The Night Haunter]

 

"The return of my people means the end of yours." Not just the world, but the end of the people in it. As far as I know this is not specific to any race you might have chosen for your inquisitor.

 

And when asked why he bothered helping the inquisition and the people in the first place if he was just going to end everything:

 

"I am not a monster. If they must die I would rather they die in comfort."

 

I think you're being a little optimistic. Even saying "oh, he doesn't intend to kill everyone, just MOSTLY everyone" as a defense is pretty silly.

 

You could interpret it that way, the way I interpretted it was in the same vein as the end of the elves. He literally says creating the Veil destroyed their world. Obviously the death toll was much, much less than 100%, and the majority of the damage was due to all the elves technology no longer working because of a lack of magic. This led to a decline in the evlen society and allowed Tevinter to mop up the straglers. 'The end of your people." To my mind means the exact same thing. The end of our civilization. A non-total death toll (probably very far from total), and the upheaval of society as the established rules no longer apply. The Chantry would fall apart with a 100% mage population, every nations leaders would suddenly find their populace more than capable of fighting them should they choose, as magic levels that playing field, and demons would roam around possessing people who don't understand their new-found power.

 

I never interpreted it as "A wall of flame would burn your people to cinders, or.. you know, something like that." I will not say that your interpretation is wrong, because of course we are both interpreting, neither of knows with certainty. I am simply saying this a potential thread of logic should we accept my hypothesis of a 'changed' rather than outright destroyed world from Solas' actions.

 

 

 

I do feel it important to point out that I don't actually think Solas is right, I just love playing Devil's Advocate

[The Night Haunter]

Seems like whenever the Dread Wolf tries to make something better, things turn out worse because he neglected to account for a few things. So assuming that what he plans to do for the old elves will somehow be better than the way things are now in Thedas is a *huge* assumption. I mean maybe some things would improve, but other things, as others have pointed out, could get a lot worse.

Also, it seems likely that Solas himself would die in this endeavor, either bringing down the veil or in combating the returned Evanuris. So his plans would end there, there would be no-one to guide the world toward whatever shape Solas intended. It is entirely possible (and even plausible) that a whole new batch of Evanuris would rise from the chaos, putting the world exactly where it had been before the veil was raised.