232 réponses à ce sujet

[Ashagar]

Solas plan to restore the world isn't horrible. His original Sundering of the world was.

 

Oh Solas plan is beyond horrible, he's going to murder much if not most of Dragon Age's World's population so the few surviving Ancient elves hiding in the hitherlands of the world might get their world back. He even ankowleged the fact that most likely most of the world population were going to die horribly. It won't be good for the Qunari, Humans Dwarves, Modern Elves, Kossith and what ever unknown races lie beyond known Thadas.

[LOLandStuff]

Oh Solas plan is beyond horrible, he's going to murder much if not most of Dragon Age's World's population so the few surviving Ancient elves hiding in the hitherlands of the world might get their world back. He even ankowleged the fact that most likely most of the world population were going to die horribly. It won't be good for the Qunari, Humans Dwarves, Modern Elves, Kossith and what ever unknown races lie beyond known Thadas.

 

But look on the bright side. Solas will get his dazzling and perfect world back, which is the only kind of world he fits in and likes. Isn't the death of million of innocent people worth it?

[Darkstarr11]

But look on the bright side. Solas will get his dazzling and perfect world back, which is the only kind of world he fits in and likes. Isn't the death of million of innocent people worth it?

 

I stand by my house dropping analogy.  No promises that the house you drop will survive either.  There is no guarantee the the Evanuris won't overpower him and cause even MORE destruction.  He woke up without his powers.  In fact, I think that CREATING the Fade drained his powers immeasurably.  DID he drain the powers of the Evanuris?  OR, have they been sitting out there trapped and growing in strength for eons with nothing better to do than plan out their revenge?  Because he's basically ripping open reality and letting Cthulu and pals loose upon the world with nothing more than a hearty 'I got this, no worries' to comfort us.  Before, they were at each others throats...NOW they have a common goal.  

 

Do you really need three guesses as to what they might want?

[LOLandStuff]

At least it's a pretty house with a comfy couch.

 

Anyway, going along with Solas' plan is simply silly.

[TastesLikeTNT]

But look on the bright side. Solas will get his dazzling and perfect world back, which is the only kind of world he fits in and likes. Isn't the death of million of innocent people worth it?

 

And he's in a damn hurry to get it back too. Like, to a friendly Inquisitor, he'll say that he'd treasure the chance to be proven wrong about the world "needing" to be destroyed, but still he just pisses off to continue his merry apocalypse anyway. It seems like he wants to tear down the Veil before he gets too attached to the modern world and changes his mind about the whole thing. 

[AresKeith]

This is how I'm starting to feel about this stuff.

 

​Elves, uh, had their shot, and nature selected them…for extinction. 

 

[Mr.House]

Solas plan to restore the world isn't horrible. His original Sundering of the world was.

Explain to me how genocide is not horrible.

[LOLandStuff]

Explain to me how genocide is not horrible.

 

It's not genocide if they're not people.

It's alright tho, Solas will slightly feel bad about it. Lucky him he's restoring his world back to get over it.

 

But what I want to know how is fantastic Solas' old elvhen empire was, what with the war and slavery.

 

It's like wanting to restore Taris, but **** those guys at the bottom. They suck, and have the plague.

[Wren]

Does he ever come out and say genocide? http://i.imgur.com/iZmRPlS.png?1 Looking at all of the dialogue options, I never see anything he says directly pointing toward genocide, specifically.  He says "your world" has to die or, the end of "your people" but does he mean this literally or figuratively?  For instance, the old Elven glory returning would certainly mean an end to the Dalish way of life since they'd have to contend with the fact that most everything they ever believed in was untrue.  If your people or your world evolve into something else, are they still your world and your people?

I see Solas beig a lot like the Hindu god of destruction, Shiva.   In Hinduism, destruction is considered a necessary part of the cycle of life and Shiva is worshhipped both for his fierceness and his compassion. This story about Shiva and Sati (http://www.naturally.../shiva_sati.htm) is very similar to the Solas/Mythal story, as well, though I'm sure the devs pull from all sorts of real myhtologies to create lore for the DA series. 

I was wondering if the lore experts in this forum could enlighten me as to what is known for certain about the outcome of the veil being lifted,  aside from conjecture.  

The Inquisitor assumes that genocide is what he means and he doesn't correct him/her in one dialoque thread, but we also know he only ever lies and misleads people by omission.

Thoughts?

[Drasanil]

Explain to me how genocide is not horrible.

 

Well, if you do it right there will be no one left around that's inclined to say it was. So there, not horrible, provided you don't botch the job 

[Jackums]

"So... is what Solas wants to do really that bad?"
 
According to moral objectivist standards, yes. From an anthropocentric stance, yes. Also if we equivocate death with being the worst possible thing, yes.
 
https://en.wikipedia...al_universalism
https://en.wikipedia...nthropocentrism
https://en.wikipedia...ological_egoism
Etc, etc.
 
Most people that fit one or multiple of the above will generally respond with, "Yes."

 

Not that those are the only reasons or motivations for people to oppose Solas's plans, but I imagine you'll find them quite common.

[BansheeOwnage]

Does he ever come out and say genocide? http://i.imgur.com/iZmRPlS.png?1 Looking at all of the dialogue options, I never see anything he says directly pointing toward genocide, specifically.  He says "your world" has to die or, the end of "your people" but does he mean this literally or figuratively?  For instance, the old Elven glory returning would certainly mean an end to the Dalish way of life since they'd have to contend with the fact that most everything they ever believed in was untrue.  If your people or your world evolve into something else, are they still your world and your people?

I see Solas beig a lot like the Hindu god of destruction, Shiva.   In Hinduism, destruction is considered a necessary part of the cycle of life and Shiva is worshhipped both for his fierceness and his compassion. This story about Shiva and Sati (http://www.naturally.../shiva_sati.htm) is very similar to the Solas/Mythal story, as well, though I'm sure the devs pull from all sorts of real myhtologies to create lore for the DA series. 

I was wondering if the lore experts in this forum could enlighten me as to what is known for certain about the outcome of the veil being lifted,  aside from conjecture.  

The Inquisitor assumes that genocide is what he means and he doesn't correct him/her in one dialoque thread, but we also know he only ever lies and misleads people by omission.

Thoughts?

You make some good points, and I don't think he expects the entire population of current Thedas to die, but he does say something to the effect of: "If your people must die, I would rather they die in comfort." And he says that in relation to delaying the impending Qunari invasion, where many people would have been affected. So it's clear that a lot of people are going to die, just not how or why, exactly.

[Wren]

You make some good points, and I don't think he expects the entire population of current Thedas to die, but he does say something to the effect of: "If your people must die, I would rather they die in comfort." And he says that in relation to delaying the impending Qunari invasion, where many people would have been affected. So it's clear that a lot of people are going to die, just not how or why, exactly.

Is he speaking about the Qun or the people recovering from the breach?  He says that, "In any event, it is done".  The only thing he has done at that point is turn the Qun to stone.  He even says earlier that it'll be a "few years of relative peace" before the veil is broken and the world is destroyed.  In which case, it certainly isn't "done".

[Daerog]

Genocide is not always a bad thing. I think wiping out the darkspawn and ending the blight is currently justifiable with the information we currently have, and darkspawn can be self aware, but they are still beings that choke out life and are parasitical in nature.

 

 

Anyway, as for Solas, one can look at like I Am Legend (book, not movie) and say "It is not his world anymore and he should accept that." One could try to look at it from a Matrix point of view, and say "The world is horrible, and the victims are not completely blameless, but the current world should change to give back what was taken from those who were somewhat responsible for the bad that happened to them."

 

Or, one could go the middle way and say that the Veil should progressively decay, weaken it over time in some areas and move on to other areas later. This way, people can adapt, wards can go up in areas that want them, millions don't have to be caught unawares as demons and spirits flood their towns, and no mass murder needs to take place.

 

The Veil can already thin, this isn't just about removing the Veil, it is about removing all things that Solas does not know anything about and that could oppose his ideas on how the world should be. He is a Woobie, driven by grief, and is in no way using any of that ancient wisdom he should have with all his talking with spirits of Wisdom.

 

So... ya, what Solas wants is really bad, because it is without care of any of the lives he is taking. He may say, "Oh, I will remember all the names, carve them in my flesh, and forever mourn for them in my immortal life," but he is still wrong, there is no need to cause global chaos, he doesn't have to drop the Veil in an immediate fashion.

 

Killing people isn't the only way to thin the Veil, but it can be thinned, and Solas should just look for a way to gradually do that without blood magic or killing people.

[Kurogane335]

I think that the remark made by Solas about the world he has awaken in being comprised of Tranquil in his eyes, is somehow the root of failure to understand and thus accept this new world.

 

A Tranquil is mage whose connection to the Fade have been severed to prevent him from being possessed (and more often than not, because he was deemed unruly and the Templars wanted to take no risks or punish him). But nobody is born Tranquil. Even the Qunari have emotions (and quite violents at that, like Sten demonstrated with his bouts of uncontrollable anger, like when he killed the farmers who saved him). Furthermore; Tranquillity can be reversed, temporarily or permanently, without risking the life of the Tranquil. The transition from mage to Tranquil and then mage again would be (and in fact is) traumatic for the person enduring it, but not lethal. And as far as we know, if two Tranquil had a child, he wouldn't be born a Tranquil, but either a normal human or a mage.

 

So there is a radical difference between what the creation of the Veil produced on other species (which were probably already intelligent but from a different nature than the Elves -I'm thinking of the humans here) and what the Rite of Tranquillity is. I think that Solas remark is but a way to try to assuage is conscience for what he is about to do. It also demonstrate, like his reflections concerning the Qunari (which are incredibly hypocrite now, in light of what he said the dwarves were prior to the Titan's downfall or sleep, i.e mindless drones), that he has a very narrow vision of what a "people" is and that he actually refuses to acknowledge that it is only one definition of the word and that it has been outdated for thousands of years, now.

[KaiserShep]

Solas plan to restore the world isn't horrible. His original Sundering of the world was.

OK, maybe if Solas decided "Well balls, this was kind of a bad idea. Lemme just ctrl+z this beyotch!" like a few weeks later or something, then sure. But it's been literally ages. While Solas Rip Van Winkled his ass across time, civilizations have developed in this new world. 

[Daerog]

Solas making the Veil was, supposedly, to stop the tyrannical and power hungry elf gods from possibly destroying the material world, since it was Mythal that opposed the harvesting of Titans after killing one... if I remember all this correctly...

 

He's not trying to save anything this time, what he wants to save is gone. It's like someone wanting to bring back the Roman Empire at its height or wiping out most of humanity so the dinosaurs can roam the Earth once more without fear of being gunned down. He is being driven by grief from the trauma of his past and confusion from his waking to an alien world.

[zeypher]

You know just a theory, but Solas removing the veil could allow the series to go towards a classless system if they wanted to. So if they actually do want to take the series towards that the veil has got to go.

[Daerog]

Classless? As in, everyone is equal... except for the 9 ruling over us all as gods? (That's just from the elf side, they weren't the only beings during their ancient time, there were Titans, which means there may have been proto-dwarves or maybe even early humans, who knows? It was just elves in DA:I Trespasser).

 

Edit: Plus others, as there were the Forbidden, rebels, and whoever the 9 originally fought to gain their status, so it there were still varying degrees of those above and those below.

 

It's a theory, ya, but it won't stay that way as long as people want power.

 

  Edit2: Wow, I did not get it until now, you mean "classless" as in mage, warrior, rogue... d'oh!

[The Night Haunter]

Does he ever come out and say genocide? http://i.imgur.com/iZmRPlS.png?1 Looking at all of the dialogue options, I never see anything he says directly pointing toward genocide, specifically.  He says "your world" has to die or, the end of "your people" but does he mean this literally or figuratively?  For instance, the old Elven glory returning would certainly mean an end to the Dalish way of life since they'd have to contend with the fact that most everything they ever believed in was untrue.  If your people or your world evolve into something else, are they still your world and your people?

I see Solas beig a lot like the Hindu god of destruction, Shiva.   In Hinduism, destruction is considered a necessary part of the cycle of life and Shiva is worshhipped both for his fierceness and his compassion. This story about Shiva and Sati (http://www.naturally.../shiva_sati.htm) is very similar to the Solas/Mythal story, as well, though I'm sure the devs pull from all sorts of real myhtologies to create lore for the DA series. 

I was wondering if the lore experts in this forum could enlighten me as to what is known for certain about the outcome of the veil being lifted,  aside from conjecture.  

The Inquisitor assumes that genocide is what he means and he doesn't correct him/her in one dialoque thread, but we also know he only ever lies and misleads people by omission.

Thoughts?

Yay! Someone else who listened rather than reacted. Solas was being figurative. In that exact same conversation, 2 minutes early he says he destroyed the elves' world. Obviously a meteor didn't hit the planet and end all life, The fade being blocked 'just' caused massive upheaval. 

I don't doubt thousands will die, but it is far from genocide (especially since it isn't targeted, which is kinda a requirement for the label genocide). We should oppose, don't get me wrong, but we don't need to blow it out of proportion.

[BansheeOwnage]

Is he speaking about the Qun or the people recovering from the breach?  He says that, "In any event, it is done".  The only thing he has done at that point is turn the Qun to stone.  He even says earlier that it'll be a "few years of relative peace" before the veil is broken and the world is destroyed.  In which case, it certainly isn't "done".

He means that he would rather a whole lot of people die in relative comfort, without the qunari either invading or converting, rather than the same people dying while that happens. That's all.

[MrObnoxiousUK]

Yay! Someone else who listened rather than reacted. Solas was being figurative. In that exact same conversation, 2 minutes early he says he destroyed the elves' world. Obviously a meteor didn't hit the planet and end all life, The fade being blocked 'just' caused massive upheaval. 

I don't doubt thousands will die, but it is far from genocide (especially since it isn't targeted, which is kinda a requirement for the label genocide). We should oppose, don't get me wrong, but we don't need to blow it out of proportion.

By "genocide" we mean the destruction of an ethnic group. Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups

[Wren]

I was rereading this codex in the game and I believe it's a clue as to what will really happen once the veil comes down.  The Fade could possibly be similar to the Buddhist concept of Nirvana.

I think what this codex basically says is that there is no real difference between the Fade and the real world.  The veil is really only a delusion of perception, that of these two states of consciousness (the fade and the real world) are separate from one another.

So, perhaps the destruction of the veil is really only the destruction of delusion, allowing the inhabitants of Thedas to become enlightened beings.  

This would, of course, mean an end to old ways of life and the symbolic "end" of the world as the Inquisitor currently knows it.

Just a thought:

 

I detest this notion that the Veil is some manner of invisible "curtain" that separates the world of the living from the world of the spirits (whether it be called the Fade or the Beyond is a matter of racial politics I refuse to indulge in at the moment). There is no "this side" and "that side" when it comes to the Veil. One cannot think of it as a physical thing or a barrier or even a "shimmering wall of holy light" (thank you very much for that image, Your Perfection).

Think of the Veil, instead, as opening one's eyes.

Before you opened them, you saw our world as you see it now: static, solid, unchanging. Now that they are open, you see our world as the spirits see it: chaotic, ever-changing, a realm where the imagined and the remembered have as much substance as that which is real—more, in fact. A spirit sees everything as defined by will and memory, and this is why they are so very lost when they cross the Veil. In our world, imagination has no substance. Objects exist independently of how we remember them or what emotions we associate with them. Mages alone possess the power to change the world with their minds, and perhaps this forms the nature of a demon's attraction to them—who can say?

Regardless, the act of passing through the Veil is much more about changing one's perceptions than a physical transition. The Veil is an idea, it is the act of transition itself, and it is only the fact that both living beings and spirits find the transition difficult that gives the Veil any credence as a physical barrier at all.

—From A Dissertation on the Fade as a Physical Manifestation, by Mareno, Senior Enchanter of the MinrathousCircle of Magi, 6:55 Steel

[TastesLikeTNT]

Yay! Someone else who listened rather than reacted. Solas was being figurative. In that exact same conversation, 2 minutes early he says he destroyed the elves' world. Obviously a meteor didn't hit the planet and end all life, The fade being blocked 'just' caused massive upheaval. 

I don't doubt thousands will die, but it is far from genocide (especially since it isn't targeted, which is kinda a requirement for the label genocide). We should oppose, don't get me wrong, but we don't need to blow it out of proportion.

 

What is meant by "blowing things out of proportion", exactly? He does not just tell you that your world will die. When asked why he'd even bother stopping the Qunari if he's going to destroy the world regardless, he replies that he rather have people "die in comfort" than under the Qun. Because he's "not a monster". If I was trying to present myself as "not-a-monster", I think I'd specify that some would die rather than some would survive.

[D_Schattenjager]

Does he ever come out and say genocide? http://i.imgur.com/iZmRPlS.png?1 Looking at all of the dialogue options, I never see anything he says directly pointing toward genocide, specifically.  He says "your world" has to die or, the end of "your people" but does he mean this literally or figuratively?  For instance, the old Elven glory returning would certainly mean an end to the Dalish way of life since they'd have to contend with the fact that most everything they ever believed in was untrue.  If your people or your world evolve into something else, are they still your world and your people?

I see Solas beig a lot like the Hindu god of destruction, Shiva.   In Hinduism, destruction is considered a necessary part of the cycle of life and Shiva is worshhipped both for his fierceness and his compassion. This story about Shiva and Sati (http://www.naturally.../shiva_sati.htm) is very similar to the Solas/Mythal story, as well, though I'm sure the devs pull from all sorts of real myhtologies to create lore for the DA series. 

I was wondering if the lore experts in this forum could enlighten me as to what is known for certain about the outcome of the veil being lifted,  aside from conjecture.  

The Inquisitor assumes that genocide is what he means and he doesn't correct him/her in one dialoque thread, but we also know he only ever lies and misleads people by omission.

Thoughts?

The answer would be in finding out what Humans & Qunari were before the Sundering ...