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[Darkstarr11]

I've been sitting here trying to break down each companion and how and why they work with or DON'T work with Solas.  Each companion has a different relationship with him, which NOW makes a lot more sense.  I don't know if you'll agree or disagree, but hear me out...

 

Cassandra.  He mentions that she willingly gave up power, and allowed others to lead when she COULD have taken charge.  He admires that.  Now that we know he was a rebel leader, and fought against tyrants, it seems that his approval is based on the fact that she embodies exactly the type of person Solas hopes the world would have (and possibly his new world that he wants to create).  It also seems to reflect a bit of himself.  He didn't seem to want to lead, but does when he has to.

 

Vivienne.  NOW it makes sense.  Now I see why he dislikes her so much.  She is EXACTLY like the type of being that he fought against, and sealed away.  Someone who is overly ambitious and proud.  He opposes her and other like her because he has seen where that can lead.  As to whether or not it is true is academic.  People like Vivienne justify his world view that gives him reason to want to flatten the world when he reintroduces the Fade.  

 

Blackwall is much like himself...actually A LOT.  Both are people who took on different names and did unspeakable things.  Solas may have (in his mind) good reason, but innocents died.  He admits it.  Blackwall as well.  Blackwall is trying to atone for his errors, and uses a name that has respect, power, and influence to do so because HIS name is mud.  Solas RETURNS to his true name because in the current world, his 'title' is seen as an evil trickster who ruined the world...which is...partially true.  It is also why he accepts Blackwall after all is said and done.

 

The Iron Bull and the Qun.  He sees this as nothing more than slavery...JUST like the ancient elves.  From what he tells you, free will was something he seems to have had to TEACH other elves.  We've seen Qunari blindly follow orders and desperately try to control a world that frankly doesn't seem to want to be controlled.  To Solas, this is exactly what he fought against.  Bull over time can either become 'free' or and accept his role, which to Solas is basically accepting being a slave.  Also, a bit of warning in their mental game of chess...Solas wins by sacrificing his Queen.  Lavellans?  You were warned...

 

Sera.  Like himself, he sees in her potential...though Sera seems to be having none of it.  She's part of a group that rebels...because...well, because.  Drives Solas mad.  Sera, he THINKS, could bring about change.  Instead of pranks and random attacks, he tries to steer her along a path that would lead to the lower class becoming a united front.  Interestingly enough, they CAN become such in Trespasser.  Influence from Solas, perhaps?  Though he sees that she has given up on her culture (ironically, so has Solas...), and it troubles him.  SHE is exactly what he fears.  HIS actions created situations where elves like Sera have completely lost their culture.  Aside from their ears, some elves are basically just second class humans...or worse.

 

Those are the ones that I noticed.  Sadly, I didn't have Solas and Dorian in a party regularly...well, at all, often enough.  Solas and Cole pretty well stand out...he was very clear about his admiration for spirits.  Varric and Solas get along well because Varric is a man of the people.  He fights for the underdog, just like Solas.  

 

The Inquisitor.  One thing I noted, is that as a friend, Solas seems regretful...if you ignore or do your best to make him hate you, the Inquisitor has GIVEN him reason to go forward with his plans.  He sees them as a monster, and believes the world SHOULD be destroyed.  Just a fun little tidbit I caught.  So yeah, as a friend, he's regretful.  As essentially an enemy, he is fully justified.  Scary, no?

 

What are your thoughts?

[Uirebhiril]

The Iron Bull and the Qun.  He sees this as nothing more than slavery...JUST like the ancient elves.  From what he tells you, free will was something he seems to have had to TEACH other elves.  We've seen Qunari blindly follow orders and desperately try to control a world that frankly doesn't seem to want to be controlled.  To Solas, this is exactly what he fought against.  Bull over time can either become 'free' or and accept his role, which to Solas is basically accepting being a slave.  Also, a bit of warning in their mental game of chess...Solas wins by sacrificing his Queen.  Lavellans?  You were warned...

that gives him reason to want to flatten the world when he reintroduces the Fade.  

 

I think my only nitpick here would be that If we're going to consider a "queen" that is sacrificed, I would look hard at the stinger at the end of DAI.

[Darkstarr11]

I think my only nitpick here would be that If we're going to consider a "queen" that is sacrificed, I would look hard at the stinger at the end of DAI.

 

Yeah, my bad that I forgot that one.  Spot on too.  

[Korva]

I've been sitting here trying to break down each companion and how and why they work with or DON'T work with Solas.  Each companion has a different relationship with him, which NOW makes a lot more sense.  I don't know if you'll agree or disagree, but hear me out...

 

Cassandra.  [...]

 

The banters between Casssandra and Solas were, IMO, easily among the best and most beautifully done in Inquisition. These two characters are different enough in some ways to truly challenge each other and in doing so help each other open their eyes to new perspectives -- yet similar enough to find common ground and turn that challenge into a respectful and ultimately even amiable process. I really loved seeing that, and even now I still find it very poignant despite Solas' lies retroactively marring all his positive moments. It mirrors his friendship with the Inquisitor and showcases many of both Solas' and Cass' best qualities. Two gold stars for the writers. It's just a shame that such banters all but exist in a vaccum and don't influence either character's behavior in other contexts, making the way they developed with each other feel less "real". For example, I think Cass absolutely should have made such a positive impression on Solas to help shift his not-real-people mindset even if he didn't get along with the Inquisitor.

 

Of course, the combination of this bond and Cassandra's strong dislike for liars mean that she is probably also the one who explodes the hardest after finding out the truth ... It's a shame we don't get an in-depth talk with the companions after the big reveal (and our mutilation).

 

Vivienne.  NOW it makes sense.  Now I see why he dislikes her so much.  She is EXACTLY like the type of being that he fought against, and sealed away.  Someone who is overly ambitious and proud.  He opposes her and other like her because he has seen where that can lead.  As to whether or not it is true is academic.  People like Vivienne justify his world view that gives him reason to want to flatten the world when he reintroduces the Fade.

 

And yet Vivienne does not intend or cause a fraction of the harm he does. He perfectly justifies her worldview, too, because he is more of a poster child for the horrors of uncontrolled magic than even Corypheus was. They are both supremely arrogant and hypocritical. Vivienne reaches for the Sunburst Throne despite proclaiming that magic should serve and not rule. Solas argues he is neither a god nor a monster yet acts like both in his bid to recreate a "better" world. Where Cassandra shares some of his better qualities, Vivienne does his some of his worst.

 

Blackwall is much like himself...actually A LOT.  Both are people who took on different names and did unspeakable things.  Solas may have (in his mind) good reason, but innocents died.  He admits it.  Blackwall as well.  Blackwall is trying to atone for his errors, and uses a name that has respect, power, and influence to do so because HIS name is mud.  Solas RETURNS to his true name because in the current world, his 'title' is seen as an evil trickster who ruined the world...which is...partially true.  It is also why he accepts Blackwall after all is said and done.

 

The resemblance between the two is no doubt the reason why Solas goes off on Blackwall so viciously at first. Plus, while the game mostly glosses over the effect that Blackwall's lies must have had on the inner circle, I wonder if Solas looked at the shock, betrayal, pain and rage it no doubt did cause and realized that he is going to do worse, so much worse, to these people who call him friend and for whom he truly has begun to care by this point. That shame might have fuelled both his initial anger and his subsequent apology. Blackwall, at least, truly has changed. Solas never stopped his course, even if he changed his mind on the modern people and made friends. Blackwall can now try to rebuild what his lies broke, if his friends will still have him, and maybe create something stronger with them in the end now that truly know him. Solas still lies and his friendships rest on false premises until Trespasser ... and it is debatable how many of them may survive that reveal in any way.

 

Solas and Cole pretty well stand out...he was very clear about his admiration for spirits.  Varric and Solas get along well because Varric is a man of the people.  He fights for the underdog, just like Solas.

 

Solas and Cole are pure poetry together in the base game ... I just wish Trespasser didn't make me feel as if Cole was mainly used as merely a pro-Solas mouthpiece in the DLC, because this fascinating character does not deserve that. At any rate, it is poignant how, in an "ideal" worldstate, Solas can urge those around him to open their minds about spirits being people too, watch them come to trust and cherish Cole ("even" more-spirit-Cole who is more "alien") ... while himself learning that same lesson about the modern-day mortals.

 

Varric and Solas? I'm not sure how much they do get along. They do joke around sometimes, but they also argue A LOT. Varric just doesn't give a sh*t about anything Solas thinks is important. He rejects being "dwarfy" as much as Sera rejects being "elfy" ... and while traditional dwarven culture can be horrible, the human culture Varric alternately praises and mocks is hardly a utopia either. I still wish we'd had a "real dwarf" for a companion instead of a wannabe-human so we could get a closer look at that culture from the inside.

[Arisugawa]

Sera.  Like himself, he sees in her potential...though Sera seems to be having none of it.  She's part of a group that rebels...because...well, because.  Drives Solas mad.  Sera, he THINKS, could bring about change.  Instead of pranks and random attacks, he tries to steer her along a path that would lead to the lower class becoming a united front.  Interestingly enough, they CAN become such in Trespasser.  Influence from Solas, perhaps?  Though he sees that she has given up on her culture (ironically, so has Solas...), and it troubles him.  SHE is exactly what he fears.  HIS actions created situations where elves like Sera have completely lost their culture.  Aside from their ears, some elves are basically just second class humans...or worse.

 

I think it's a little bit more than that just the elves losing their culture. When Solas compares his world to this world by saying "it was like awaking into a world of Tranquil," it's Sera that accusation is being pointed at. He tells her that she is "the furthest away from what she was meant to be."

 

This isn't about culture at point - it's a about her lack of connection to the Fade, the lack of immortality, the lack of innate magic. She is living embodiment of everything he brought about. She isn't even an elf in the same sense that he is - even Lavellan is much, much closer to him than Sera. And it frustrates Solas to have to see this and not be able to do nothing about. His conversation with Sera when asks her to look at the Breach and see beyond it - that is his confirmation that the qualities of his people still exist, dormant and subdued perhaps, within people like Sera, and that it is possible to unlock it.

 

Sera, obviously, knows none of this and rejects his minor inquiries right out of hand for fear of being elfy - she has grown up in a world of mixed races and lower class individuals that saw each other despite ears, or horns, or small height. People, as she would say, are people. And that is something Solas, for all his wisdom, still has trouble seeing.

[renfrees]

Those are the ones that I noticed.  Sadly, I didn't have Solas and Dorian in a party regularly...well, at all, often enough.  Solas and Cole pretty well stand out...he was very clear about his admiration for spirits.  Varric and Solas get along well because Varric is a man of the people.  He fights for the underdog, just like Solas.  

 

What are your thoughts?

Solas' and Dorian banter are among the best - the mutual snark are through the roof. Also, Solas is the only one who challenges Dorian's crappy beliefs about slavery.

[Bigdoser]

Solas' and Dorian banter are among the best - the mutual snark are through the roof. Also, Solas is the only one who challenges Dorian's crappy beliefs about slavery.

Pretty much and I like how most their banter is nerd talk and how much the magic of tevinter is based off old elven stuff. Honestly OP this is rather spot on. 

[Navasha]

I would also note that for the romanced lavellan, Solas almost seems to draw inspiration from the Inquisitor.    He seems almost to have been on the verge of giving up on his plans, that elves of this new age weren't worth the effort.   Then the Inquisitor reminds him of the spark of greatness in the elven people and upon seeing that potential plunges head first back into his plans.   

[Korva]

The "nerd talk" between the NPC mages is one thing I think I'd feel woefully left out of if I was playing a mage. It'd be like being a slack-jawed yokel among geniuses.

 

Solas challenges Dorian a lot -- on his Tevinter arrogance, on slavery, on his callousness towards spirits and "using" them. When Dorian lapses into a guilty funk about the destruction of the old elven culture and tries to apologize, Solas offers him some reassurance but also follows it up with a challenge for Dorian to fight slavery if he is truly sorry. I think he is a serious contributor to Dorian's growth from well-intentioned but snotty runaway with a massive chip on his shoulder into more of the "Redeemer" role. It would be good if Dorian had some words to say about or maybe, eventually, even to Solas about how their time together helped shape him.

[Darkstarr11]

The banters between Casssandra and Solas were, IMO, easily among the best and most beautifully done in Inquisition. These two characters are different enough in some ways to truly challenge each other and in doing so help each other open their eyes to new perspectives -- yet similar enough to find common ground and turn that challenge into a respectful and ultimately even amiable process. I really loved seeing that, and even now I still find it very poignant despite Solas' lies retroactively marring all his positive moments. It mirrors his friendship with the Inquisitor and showcases many of both Solas' and Cass' best qualities. Two gold stars for the writers. It's just a shame that such banters all but exist in a vaccum and don't influence either character's behavior in other contexts, making the way they developed with each other feel less "real". For example, I think Cass absolutely should have made such a positive impression on Solas to help shift his not-real-people mindset even if he didn't get along with the Inquisitor.

 

Of course, the combination of this bond and Cassandra's strong dislike for liars mean that she is probably also the one who explodes the hardest after finding out the truth ... It's a shame we don't get an in-depth talk with the companions after the big reveal (and our mutilation).

 

 

And yet Vivienne does not intend or cause a fraction of the harm he does. He perfectly justifies her worldview, too, because he is more of a poster child for the horrors of uncontrolled magic than even Corypheus was. They are both supremely arrogant and hypocritical. Vivienne reaches for the Sunburst Throne despite proclaiming that magic should serve and not rule. Solas argues he is neither a god nor a monster yet acts like both in his bid to recreate a "better" world. Where Cassandra shares some of his better qualities, Vivienne does his some of his worst.

 

 

The resemblance between the two is no doubt the reason why Solas goes off on Blackwall so viciously at first. Plus, while the game mostly glosses over the effect that Blackwall's lies must have had on the inner circle, I wonder if Solas looked at the shock, betrayal, pain and rage it no doubt did cause and realized that he is going to do worse, so much worse, to these people who call him friend and for whom he truly has begun to care by this point. That shame might have fuelled both his initial anger and his subsequent apology. Blackwall, at least, truly has changed. Solas never stopped his course, even if he changed his mind on the modern people and made friends. Blackwall can now try to rebuild what his lies broke, if his friends will still have him, and maybe create something stronger with them in the end now that truly know him. Solas still lies and his friendships rest on false premises until Trespasser ... and it is debatable how many of them may survive that reveal in any way.

 

 

Solas and Cole are pure poetry together in the base game ... I just wish Trespasser didn't make me feel as if Cole was mainly used as merely a pro-Solas mouthpiece in the DLC, because this fascinating character does not deserve that. At any rate, it is poignant how, in an "ideal" worldstate, Solas can urge those around him to open their minds about spirits being people too, watch them come to trust and cherish Cole ("even" more-spirit-Cole who is more "alien") ... while himself learning that same lesson about the modern-day mortals.

 

Varric and Solas? I'm not sure how much they do get along. They do joke around sometimes, but they also argue A LOT. Varric just doesn't give a sh*t about anything Solas thinks is important. He rejects being "dwarfy" as much as Sera rejects being "elfy" ... and while traditional dwarven culture can be horrible, the human culture Varric alternately praises and mocks is hardly a utopia either. I still wish we'd had a "real dwarf" for a companion instead of a wannabe-human so we could get a closer look at that culture from the inside.

 

I totally loved some of Cass and Solas's banter.  Actually, she tends to have great banter with everyone.  And yes, you are totally correct on Solas and Viv.  I didn't think about it at first, but upon a good rethink, yes, he DOES pretty much fit exactly the type of mage that she warns against.  Like you said, the after dialogue would have been something to hear.  Though, of all the mages, Solas is the last one I'd worry about becoming an abomination.  Which, is probably a bit more terrifying.  HE is choosing to be what he is and to do it.  No spirit or demon is influencing him.  Interesting that the spirit he tried to save was a Spirit of Wisdom, while he suffers a great deal from Pride...

 

Varric and Solas had a conversation about a guy who had everything taken from him.  The end of it was Solas seeing him as defeated, where Varric chided him, stating that the guy continued on.  Everyday, kept getting up, living his life and refusing to give up.  Varric stated that was as close to winning as you could get in the world, and Solas seemed duly impressed by the observation.  A bit of horror though, because Solas himself is forging on towards his goal, even if there is no real hope of a satisfactory conclusion at the end...

 

That is interesting about the Blackwall comparison.  After everything he did, he actually gives himself up and tries to atone.  Solas instead, decided to undo his mistake by doing EXACTLY what Corypheus did.  Anyone remember the Prince of Persia, Sand of Time Trilogy?  Where in the third game, he basically had to say to himself, no more trying to undo my mistakes, I have to live with them and move forward?  Solas can't seem to get that...Blackwall did, EVEN if it was to cost him his life.  Blackwall COULD have lied, and conscripted the man to be executed.  Instead, he told the truth.  When Solas was with Lavellan in their last romance scene, he chickened out on telling her, and instead talked about removing her tattoos.  One man took a step towards redemption...the other took a step back.

 

I DO wish we could see the groups reactions though.  I figure Sera is going to basically say, 'I knew it!'...well, with a lot more swearing.  Bull might not be shocked, well, too much.  Vivienne and Cass are going to flip out though.  Cassandra does NOT take betrayal well.  Varric is going to FINALLY have someone worse than Anders to call ex-friend.  Cole...really, how IS Cole going to react?  I REALLY want to know.  Aside from the rest of your companions, he seems to be the only one that would have a shot at killing Solas at his current power level.  MAYBE...but he would have to see the necessity of stopping Solas due to the sheer monstrosity of his plan.  Again, maybe.  Dorian will be...disappointed.  Solas is basically becoming EXACTLY what we were fighting against the whole game, and exactly what he is fighting against back home.  I hope that he shows up in the next game, because he and Sera seem the only companions that have a shot are joining the next hero in the next game.  

 

Solas' and Dorian banter are among the best - the mutual snark are through the roof. Also, Solas is the only one who challenges Dorian's crappy beliefs about slavery.

 

I REALLY have to get them together in a party.  I play a lot of mages, so I rarely have more than one at a time.  And with my warrior, I usually only keep one as well.  I need to switch that up.  I have a Champion, for crying out loud, I can afford to take two!

[Wulfram]

IIRC in dialogue with my Inquisitor he said criticised Cassandra for holding her faith seperate from the rest of her life or something like that. And there was something about Leliana too, which I can't remember.

It was in the conversation which starts with him asking if getting the mark changed the Inquisitor, and the Inquisitor can suggest that the others are pretty cool too or something.

[Korva]

I totally loved some of Cass and Solas's banter.  Actually, she tends to have great banter with everyone.

 

Cass is awesome. It's a shame the story drops her a bit after we reach Skyhold, which is why I'm especially glad she's there again at the end of Trespasser.
 

Varric and Solas had a conversation about a guy who had everything taken from him.  The end of it was Solas seeing him as defeated, where Varric chided him, stating that the guy continued on.  Everyday, kept getting up, living his life and refusing to give up.  Varric stated that was as close to winning as you could get in the world, and Solas seemed duly impressed by the observation.  A bit of horror though, because Solas himself is forging on towards his goal, even if there is no real hope of a satisfactory conclusion at the end...

 

I don't like Varric all that much, but this is probably one of the best "teaching moments" for Solas, mirroring the argument Solas has with us after the Well of Souls. Boy did I kick myself for speaking passionately in favor of perseverance when I saw him vampirize Flemeth ... and even more now that we know the full truth. Varric probably feels the same.

 

That is interesting about the Blackwall comparison. [...] One man took a step towards redemption...the other took a step back.

 

Exactly. Blackwall started out a selfish bastard committing a terrible act but honestly sought and found redemption later. Solas started out as a champion of the suffering and then turned into the sort of monster with a god-complex he claims he is not. One of the few things I truly like about what I've seen of Trespasser is Blackwall's non-Warden development. Trying to make amends with the people he hurt, even if it gets him beaten up. Taking up his old name again. And then, the extremely touching epilogue of him going to the most dismal places to pass on the compassion he received to those whom hardly anyone else would offer it. (Cole must be so proud of him.) It's a shame to think that he will most likely never interact with Solas again.

 

I DO wish we could see the groups reactions though.

 

Yes, that not being in the DLC is really mind-boggling.

 

Cassandra does NOT take betrayal well.

 

It must be a huge fall from grace because she clearly trusted and respected him in the end. And she has few enough people she gets close to, so this will hurt her even more. They were Team Mutually Respectful Moral and Theological Debate (dev quote referring to these two plus Cole) ... now she may be the one raging for his head more vehemently than anyone else.

 

Varric is going to FINALLY have someone worse than Anders to call ex-friend.

 

Heh, that sentence probably shouldn't amuse me, but somehow it did.

 

Cole...really, how IS Cole going to react?  I REALLY want to know.  Aside from the rest of your companions, he seems to be the only one that would have a shot at killing Solas at his current power level.  MAYBE...but he would have to see the necessity of stopping Solas due to the sheer monstrosity of his plan.

 

Honestly, the way Cole was handled in the DLC worries me. He's my favourite character by far, and Trespasser left me both utterly disappointed at the lack of personal bonding with him and, well ... I posted about my fears here in the "Solas must die" thread (plus a little extra in the Cole thread, mostly upset ranting and worrying). Long story short, Cole is the one we most need a post-reveal reaction from by far because the writers exclusively used him to push the "poor sad Solas" angle so hard. It would completely break the character and his integrity, IMO, if he did not acknowledge that while Solas may not want to outright hurt people, he nonetheless did and does, and that means he must be stopped.

 

Again, maybe.  Dorian will be...disappointed.  Solas is basically becoming EXACTLY what we were fighting against the whole game, and exactly what he is fighting against back home.

 

Yes, Dorian is kind of an anti-Solas much like Blackwall is. I agree he will be really disappointed. For all his posturing and sniping, I do think Dorian respected Solas not only as a mage, but also as someone who didn't allow for any excuses when it comes to Tevinter's abuses of slaves and spirits. If Dorian really is to be "the Redeemer", he needs to take a good hard look at ALL the bad sides of his homeland, including the ones he is fine with because they benefit him.

 

IIRC in dialogue with my Inquisitor he said criticised Cassandra for holding her faith seperate from the rest of her life or something like that. And there was something about Leliana too, which I can't remember.

 

Yes, the infamous balcony scene. I was not impressed with him there, not one bit. I'll not disagree on Solas' opinion on Leliana, who is an unstable powderkeg that was handled very badly IMO. But the way he disses Cassandra, especially if party banters have them at that truly respectful level at the same time, struck me as severely unfair. Also, considering that he is hardly someone who hesitates to voice his criticisms, it's odd that he never brings this up to her face, only behind her back.

[ravenesse]

I will be just referring to Dorian / Solas banter as OP doesn't seem to have them a lot.

 

I don't think it's that much snarky. Solas 'bites' in my opinion way more often than Solas. Dorian tries to apologize for Tevinter overcoming and ruining the elves, while Solas kind of shakes it off. Telling Dorian that all empires must fall.

The scene I love most was when Solas told Dorian to free all the elves, Dorian answered he could not do that and Solas answered (ice cold, as I felt) 'then how sorry are you?'. Which just perfectly fits. How sorry can you be when you're not trying everything to make your mistakes undone.

[Gervaise]

My biggest problem with Solas is that after all those glorious conversations with others where for the most part I was in full agreement with what he was saying, even to my beloved Dorian (since I had a problem over his attitude to slavery too), he turns round and basically says he it doesn't really matter what anyone has done and thinks since he is going to destroy everything anyway.   What if they are taking action as a result of their experiences with the Inquisition, like Dorian?   What if by some miracle he did persuade the Magisters to free all the slaves?    Will that stop Solas from going ahead with his plan?

 

Back in the main game he says "No matter what follows, I really respect you."   To a romanced Lavellan, in Trespasser, he says "I will never forget you."   Well that's a big consolation as you die amid the flaming chaos of your dying world.   He's going to remember how he screwed you over and presumably thinks the fact he has to live with the guilt for eternity is somehow mitigation for his act.  

 

After the scene with Flemeth, I was really hoping that he was simply going to lead a glorious rebellion, finish what Andraste and Shartan started and lead the elves and other slaves to freedom.    In fact it would appear that he does have some refuge somewhere that the elves are currently disappearing to, may be just through the eluvians, so why not settle for giving the elves a new homeland?   Except of course that the only elves that count are the ones like Abelas.   So he's going to let the south live for a few years in relative peace (not Tevinter since he's directed the Qunari back there) and he thinks that giving us that temporary reprieve means he is being kind to us and shows he is not a monster.

 

So, no, he is not justified and a steaming hypocrite after all his fine words condemning other people.     Is he scary?    Too right he is.    The scariest people are those who think they are virtuous when doing the most horrific things to other people.    The road to hell is paved with good intentions, which is basically the moral of what he did to the Evanuris.    As for his current plan to save "his People", well I'm pretty sure Hitler and his pals thought they weren't monsters as they tried to restore the past glory of their people.    So, yes, I think he makes a great villain because he isn't simply some over the top cackling madman.    His calmness when discussing his plan for mass genocide is what makes it so chilling, plus dangling the hope that perhaps he wants you to stop him and admitting he could tell you more but chooses not to, presumably in case he gave you too much of a hint how to accomplish it.    

 

The bit that had me most confused was the apparent "choice" whether to say you will prove him wrong (redeem) him  or simply try to stop him (kill) him.   To my mind such a decision is moot since naturally you are going to try whatever will stop him.     Will the next game really restrict us to one path or the other based on what we said to him at the end?    

[roselavellan]

I think there is quite a big difference between what Blackwall did and what Solas did. Blackwall took another person's identity to escape his dubious past, and to pretend to be a noble character; it was essentially a selfish act, an act to assume an identity he did not deserve.

 

In Solas' case, he was hiding his true identity, not for his own personal glory, but because he was pursuing a mission, for what he believes to be the greater good. That Solas fights for his people is fact, and I believe he is actually a selfless character, as everything he has done and everything he will do, he does for the benefit of the Elvhen. In his banter with Cassandra, he says this, and only now do we know what "people" he is referring to:

 

Cassandra: You have seen much sadness in your journeys, Solas. Following the Maker might offer some hope.

Solas: I have people, Seeker. The greatest triumphs and tragedies this world has known can all be traced to people.

 

You may not agree with his direction, and you would have no reason to, if you are not Elvhen, but you cannot say he is being self-serving.

[Wren]

 

 

[Honestly, the way Cole was handled in the DLC worries me. He's my favourite character by far, and Trespasser left me both utterly disappointed at the lack of personal bonding with him and, well ... I posted about my fears here in the "Solas must die" thread (plus a little extra in the Cole thread, mostly upset ranting and worrying). Long story short, Cole is the one we most need a post-reveal reaction from by far because the writers exclusively used him to push the "poor sad Solas" angle so hard. It would completely break the character and his integrity, IMO, if he did not acknowledge that while Solas may not want to outright hurt people, he nonetheless did and does, and that means he must be stopped.]

 

 

This goes back to the questions the Inquisitor asks him how he feels about killing people as a spirit of compassion and he says the monsters are easy and it's the people who have a choice that are hard, but in the end they hurt people and deserve to die for this.  This may mean that Solas doesn't have as much of a "choice" as everyone thinks he does so Cole still sees him in a compassionate light the whole time (which is interesting since Cole can read minds and must know what Solas is planning).  It could also mean that Cole believes Solas can still be persuaded to do the right thing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Reznore57]

 

Varric and Solas? I'm not sure how much they do get along. They do joke around sometimes, but they also argue A LOT. Varric just doesn't give a sh*t about anything Solas thinks is important. He rejects being "dwarfy" as much as Sera rejects being "elfy" ... and while traditional dwarven culture can be horrible, the human culture Varric alternately praises and mocks is hardly a utopia either. I still wish we'd had a "real dwarf" for a companion instead of a wannabe-human so we could get a closer look at that culture from the inside.

 

Varric and Solas are interesting , because Varric is the wise one .

• Varric: What's with you and the doom stuff? Are you always this cheery or is the hole in the sky getting to you?
• Solas: I've no idea what you mean.
• Varric: All the "fallen empire" crap you go on about. What's so great about empires anyway?
• Varric: So we lost the Deep Roads, and Orzammar's too proud to ask for help. So what? We're not Orzammar and we're not our empire.
• Varric: There are tens of thousands of us living up here in the sunlight now, and it's not that bad.
• Varric: Life goes on. It's just different than it used to be.
• Solas: And you have no concept of what that difference cost you.
• Varric: Oh I know what it didn't cost me. I'm still here, even after all those thaigs fell.
• Solas: You truly are content to sit in the sun, never wondering what you could've been, never fighting back?
• Varric: Ha, you've got it all wrong, Chuckles. This is fighting back.
• Solas: How does passively accepting your fate constitute a fight?
• Varric: In that story of yours—the fisherman watching the stars, dying alone—you thought he gave up right?
• Solas: Yes.
• Varric: But he went on living. He lost everyone, but he still got up every morning. He made a life, even if it was alone.
• Varric: That's the world. Everything you build, it tears down. Everything you've got, it takes—and it's gone forever.
• Varric: The only choices you get are to lie down and die or keep going. He kept going. That's as close to beating the world as anyone gets.
• Solas: Well said. Perhaps I was mistaken.

[BraveVesperia]

 

Varric and Solas are interesting , because Varric is the wise one .

• Varric: What's with you and the doom stuff? Are you always this cheery or is the hole in the sky getting to you?
• Solas: I've no idea what you mean.
• Varric: All the "fallen empire" crap you go on about. What's so great about empires anyway?
• Varric: So we lost the Deep Roads, and Orzammar's too proud to ask for help. So what? We're not Orzammar and we're not our empire.
• Varric: There are tens of thousands of us living up here in the sunlight now, and it's not that bad.
• Varric: Life goes on. It's just different than it used to be.
• Solas: And you have no concept of what that difference cost you.
• Varric: Oh I know what it didn't cost me. I'm still here, even after all those thaigs fell.
• Solas: You truly are content to sit in the sun, never wondering what you could've been, never fighting back?
• Varric: Ha, you've got it all wrong, Chuckles. This is fighting back.
• Solas: How does passively accepting your fate constitute a fight?
• Varric: In that story of yours—the fisherman watching the stars, dying alone—you thought he gave up right?
• Solas: Yes.
• Varric: But he went on living. He lost everyone, but he still got up every morning. He made a life, even if it was alone.
• Varric: That's the world. Everything you build, it tears down. Everything you've got, it takes—and it's gone forever.
• Varric: The only choices you get are to lie down and die or keep going. He kept going. That's as close to beating the world as anyone gets.
• Solas: Well said. Perhaps I was mistaken.

 

I couldn't help but wonder if Varric thought of his time with Hawke when talking about things like that. Considering the sheer amount of misery everyone went through during their time in Kirkwall, especially Hawke. No wonder he finds it admirable to persevere!

[Arakat]

 

The Inquisitor.  One thing I noted, is that as a friend, Solas seems regretful...if you ignore or do your best to make him hate you, the Inquisitor has GIVEN him reason to go forward with his plans.  He sees them as a monster, and believes the world SHOULD be destroyed.  Just a fun little tidbit I caught.  So yeah, as a friend, he's regretful.  As essentially an enemy, he is fully justified.  Scary, no?

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Oh yes, his disapproval scene (the one where you can punch him) got very interesting after the revelations in Trespasser. Basically, the Inquisitor proved his negative preconceptions right, and he's so relieved about that. It's pretty scary, but also pretty darn fascinating.

[Bigdoser]

 

Varric and Solas are interesting , because Varric is the wise one .

• Varric: What's with you and the doom stuff? Are you always this cheery or is the hole in the sky getting to you?
• Solas: I've no idea what you mean.
• Varric: All the "fallen empire" crap you go on about. What's so great about empires anyway?
• Varric: So we lost the Deep Roads, and Orzammar's too proud to ask for help. So what? We're not Orzammar and we're not our empire.
• Varric: There are tens of thousands of us living up here in the sunlight now, and it's not that bad.
• Varric: Life goes on. It's just different than it used to be.
• Solas: And you have no concept of what that difference cost you.
• Varric: Oh I know what it didn't cost me. I'm still here, even after all those thaigs fell.
• Solas: You truly are content to sit in the sun, never wondering what you could've been, never fighting back?
• Varric: Ha, you've got it all wrong, Chuckles. This is fighting back.
• Solas: How does passively accepting your fate constitute a fight?
• Varric: In that story of yours—the fisherman watching the stars, dying alone—you thought he gave up right?
• Solas: Yes.
• Varric: But he went on living. He lost everyone, but he still got up every morning. He made a life, even if it was alone.
• Varric: That's the world. Everything you build, it tears down. Everything you've got, it takes—and it's gone forever.
• Varric: The only choices you get are to lie down and die or keep going. He kept going. That's as close to beating the world as anyone gets.
• Solas: Well said. Perhaps I was mistaken.

 

Honestly the inquisitor can say pretty much the same thing as varric if you drank from the well of sorrows when solas asks you what you are going to do with it. The inquisitor can say they will try to build a better future with the knowledge of the well. Which he approves, then he says what if you fail and the world does not want to change? Or the world is not interested in the knowledge that you are willing to share, How can you keep going? 

 

The inquisitor can then respond I will keep trying no matter what because if you give up how is that future going to come true? If one plan does not work try another until success only when you stop and give up is when you fail. 

 

Then solas is somewhat stunned and impressed and then he says he realized that he was mistaken or something and that you gained his respect and he is glad you have it instead of cory. 

 

Yeah that banter between varric and solas is one of my favourites. 

[DuskWanderer]

One could claim that Vivienne is exactly the type of person Solas resents because she reminds him of the Evanuris, but it's hardly an apt comparison. At best, it's like saying a hill is a mountain. 

[Darkstarr11]

My biggest problem with Solas is that after all those glorious conversations with others where for the most part I was in full agreement with what he was saying, even to my beloved Dorian (since I had a problem over his attitude to slavery too), he turns round and basically says he it doesn't really matter what anyone has done and thinks since he is going to destroy everything anyway.   What if they are taking action as a result of their experiences with the Inquisition, like Dorian?   What if by some miracle he did persuade the Magisters to free all the slaves?    Will that stop Solas from going ahead with his plan?

 

Back in the main game he says "No matter what follows, I really respect you."   To a romanced Lavellan, in Trespasser, he says "I will never forget you."   Well that's a big consolation as you die amid the flaming chaos of your dying world.   He's going to remember how he screwed you over and presumably thinks the fact he has to live with the guilt for eternity is somehow mitigation for his act.  

 

After the scene with Flemeth, I was really hoping that he was simply going to lead a glorious rebellion, finish what Andraste and Shartan started and lead the elves and other slaves to freedom.    In fact it would appear that he does have some refuge somewhere that the elves are currently disappearing to, may be just through the eluvians, so why not settle for giving the elves a new homeland?   Except of course that the only elves that count are the ones like Abelas.   So he's going to let the south live for a few years in relative peace (not Tevinter since he's directed the Qunari back there) and he thinks that giving us that temporary reprieve means he is being kind to us and shows he is not a monster.

 

So, no, he is not justified and a steaming hypocrite after all his fine words condemning other people.     Is he scary?    Too right he is.    The scariest people are those who think they are virtuous when doing the most horrific things to other people.    The road to hell is paved with good intentions, which is basically the moral of what he did to the Evanuris.    As for his current plan to save "his People", well I'm pretty sure Hitler and his pals thought they weren't monsters as they tried to restore the past glory of their people.    So, yes, I think he makes a great villain because he isn't simply some over the top cackling madman.    His calmness when discussing his plan for mass genocide is what makes it so chilling, plus dangling the hope that perhaps he wants you to stop him and admitting he could tell you more but chooses not to, presumably in case he gave you too much of a hint how to accomplish it.    

 

The bit that had me most confused was the apparent "choice" whether to say you will prove him wrong (redeem) him  or simply try to stop him (kill) him.   To my mind such a decision is moot since naturally you are going to try whatever will stop him.     Will the next game really restrict us to one path or the other based on what we said to him at the end?    

 

I still believe that Solas has no intention of living through his 'plan'.  Not only will he have to tear down the Veil, but he has the Evanuris to deal with.  This is a suicide run for him.  In a way, it LESSENS his guilt and shame because after all this, he'd probably dead.  

 

"I am not a monster."  This line...is he trying to convince the Inquisitor?  Or himself?  The Inquisitor DID accuse him of not seeing them as people...which did seem to hurt him.  People he knows AND respects are going to die for a plan that he MIGHT not be entirely certain of.  I wonder if he has contemplated what will happen should he FAIL...if the Evanuris get loose and he CAN'T stop them.  Or is he so certain of his plan that he brushes off such thoughts?  Shaking off his doubts?  If he was close to the Inquisitor...is that becoming more difficult?

 

I wonder if your choice to try to prove him wrong or kill him actually is more for the Inquisitor themselves.  WHAT IF...in the next game, their choice HERE actually influences THEIR fate?  What if choosing to spare him ends up with Solas killing the Inquisitor by accident?  Forcing him to act, and then live with the horror of killing his one and only true friend?  Or love?  It is EASY to speak of death when you can't see it up close.  When they are faceless.  Once you put a face to it...it changes.  He rages against the Evanuris for the death of Mythal...what if HE finds himself now the cause of the death of someone he cares about...with no one else to blame but himself?

 

Oh yes, his disapproval scene (the one where you can punch him) got very interesting after the revelations in Trespasser. Basically, the Inquisitor proved his negative preconceptions right, and he's so relieved about that. It's pretty scary, but also pretty darn fascinating.

 

Yup, you didn't create the monster, but you sure made him more certain of his plans than ever, dinnea ya?

[Darkstarr11]

One could claim that Vivienne is exactly the type of person Solas resents because she reminds him of the Evanuris, but it's hardly an apt comparison. At best, it's like saying a hill is a mountain. 

 

True, but at best, his perspective is a bit...skewed.  He seems to react poorly to individuals that desire power, so he probably sees something that basically resembles a square peg, so he disapproves of it...even if it only appears as such.  I'd say that time has warped his ability to see things clearly...but that would be VASTLY understating it...

[Korva]

My biggest problem with Solas is that after all those glorious conversations with others where for the most part I was in full agreement with what he was saying, even to my beloved Dorian (since I had a problem over his attitude to slavery too), he turns round and basically says he it doesn't really matter what anyone has done and thinks since he is going to destroy everything anyway.   What if they are taking action as a result of their experiences with the Inquisition, like Dorian?   What if by some miracle he did persuade the Magisters to free all the slaves?    Will that stop Solas from going ahead with his plan?

 

I don't think so. First, it's not like Solas doesn't know or acknowledge that the ancient elves weren't just as bad as Tevinter -- his plan isn't a "righteous punishment for the wicked" or whatever some other entities with a god-complex may use as an excuse to destroy a world. Second, even if the modern world turned into a happy utopia overnight, it would still be still fundamentally broken in Solas' eyes because of the Veil. He wants magic and spirits to be everywhere again.

 

Back in the main game he says "No matter what follows, I really respect you."

 

I just remembered that way back I made a post about how ominous that line sounded -- unlike some other players I didn't see it as "proof" that Solas can't be up to no good. I wrote that "respect" would be no obstacle to destroying us and everything we hold dear, because such a crime can always be excused by not being aimed to us personally, it's just something that has to be done. Creeps me the hell out to realize how spot-on that was ...

 

Damnit, Solas.

 

So, no, he is not justified and a steaming hypocrite after all his fine words condemning other people.     Is he scary?    Too right he is.    The scariest people are those who think they are virtuous when doing the most horrific things to other people.

 

Exactly! That is exactly what makes him the "monster" he denies he is. Corypheus had his "reasons" too, and some of them were even quite similar to Solas' own excuses: the world had gone wrong, and he was going to fix it.

 

So, yes, I think he makes a great villain because he isn't simply some over the top cackling madman.    His calmness when discussing his plan for mass genocide is what makes it so chilling, plus dangling the hope that perhaps he wants you to stop him and admitting he could tell you more but chooses not to, presumably in case he gave you too much of a hint how to accomplish it.

 

Agreed again. So far, he is by far the best villain that Bioware has ever written -- granted, that is not a very high bar to cross for the most part, though Sun Li from Jade Empire was a shining exception. He too was convinced his plans were the answer to fixing a broken world. He too expressed respect for his student-turned-enemy, though that did not stop him from killing her once, and then doing his damndest to do so again. (And the offer to join him, as some players want to join Solas, turned out to be such a glorious trap for those foolish enough to fall into it.) His dying words left me with a lump in my throat though I sure as hell had no tender feelings left for him in the end. Right now I can't see any avenue for redemption for Solas, but I know that killing him would nonetheless choke me up too.

 

Will the next game really restrict us to one path or the other based on what we said to him at the end?

 

I strongly doubt that. Shackling players to a choice made real-world years ago regardless of what new developments the next game will reveal would be really bad writing.

 

• Varric: The only choices you get are to lie down and die or keep going. He kept going. That's as close to beating the world as anyone gets.

 

That is the conversation I referred to earlier, yes. Sadly, the only thing Solas seems to have decided to apply to his situation is "keep going" i.e. "keep going with your plan".

 

This goes back to the questions the Inquisitor asks him how he feels about killing people as a spirit of compassion and he says the monsters are easy and it's the people who have a choice that are hard, but in the end they hurt people and deserve to die for this.  This may mean that Solas doesn't have as much of a "choice" as everyone thinks he does so Cole still sees him in a compassionate light the whole time (which is interesting since Cole can read minds and must know what Solas is planning).  It could also mean that Cole believes Solas can still be persuaded to do the right thing.

 

My interpretation is quite different: his words apply to Solas perfectly, yet the game does not acknowledge that. All it does is use him as an author's mouthpiece to remind us that Solas isn't supposed to be pure evil, but without giving us any actual reason to see him as less than a monster. His good deeds for the ancient elven slaves 1,000 years ago don't mean he isn't a bad guy now, towards everyone who isn't an ancient elf.

 

The game also does not allow us to confront Cole and get some answers from him after the talk with Solas. I love and trust him more than anyone else but Cassandra, but even that is no longer enough to outweigh the complete horror of what Solas is doing, especially if Cole always knew everything yet told us nothing and still isn't telling us anything else he may know or feel. That would be a betrayal as bad as or worse than Solas' own, but without any of the foreshadowing or acknowledgement that Solas' betrayal gets, and it threatens to completely break Cole's character for me.

[Cobra's_back]

I will be just referring to Dorian / Solas banter as OP doesn't seem to have them a lot.

 

I don't think it's that much snarky. Solas 'bites' in my opinion way more often than Solas. Dorian tries to apologize for Tevinter overcoming and ruining the elves, while Solas kind of shakes it off. Telling Dorian that all empires must fall.

The scene I love most was when Solas told Dorian to free all the elves, Dorian answered he could not do that and Solas answered (ice cold, as I felt) 'then how sorry are you?'. Which just perfectly fits. How sorry can you be when you're not trying everything to make your mistakes undone.

 

I don't like Solas' conversation with Dorian. If one of Solas' followers disobeyed they would be dead. Ancient Elven civilization: A few owning everyone else. They all played GODS.