75 réponses à ce sujet

[Cobra's_back]

I think it's a little bit more than that just the elves losing their culture. When Solas compares his world to this world by saying "it was like awaking into a world of Tranquil," it's Sera that accusation is being pointed at. He tells her that she is "the furthest away from what she was meant to be."

 

This isn't about culture at point - it's a about her lack of connection to the Fade, the lack of immortality, the lack of innate magic. She is living embodiment of everything he brought about. She isn't even an elf in the same sense that he is - even Lavellan is much, much closer to him than Sera. And it frustrates Solas to have to see this and not be able to do nothing about. His conversation with Sera when asks her to look at the Breach and see beyond it - that is his confirmation that the qualities of his people still exist, dormant and subdued perhaps, within people like Sera, and that it is possible to unlock it.

 

Sera, obviously, knows none of this and rejects his minor inquiries right out of hand for fear of being elfy - she has grown up in a world of mixed races and lower class individuals that saw each other despite ears, or horns, or small height. People, as she would say, are people. And that is something Solas, for all his wisdom, still has trouble seeing.

 

She is one of the best Elves out there. She taught herself how to fight, and she is wise enough NOT to listen to Solas. She understands people. In Solas' ancient world, she would have been a slave. Instead, she is independent, and not like his mindless followers.

[Wren]

I don't think so. First, it's not like Solas doesn't know or acknowledge that the ancient elves weren't just as bad as Tevinter -- his plan isn't a "righteous punishment for the wicked" or whatever some other entities with a god-complex may use as an excuse to destroy a world. Second, even if the modern world turned into a happy utopia overnight, it would still be still fundamentally broken in Solas' eyes because of the Veil. He wants magic and spirits to be everywhere again.

 

 

I just remembered that way back I made a post about how ominous that line sounded -- unlike some other players I didn't see it as "proof" that Solas can't be up to no good. I wrote that "respect" would be no obstacle to destroying us and everything we hold dear, because such a crime can always be excused by not being aimed to us personally, it's just something that has to be done. Creeps me the hell out to realize how spot-on that was ...

 

Damnit, Solas.

 

 

Exactly! That is exactly what makes him the "monster" he denies he is. Corypheus had his "reasons" too, and some of them were even quite similar to Solas' own excuses: the world had gone wrong, and he was going to fix it.

 

 

Agreed again. So far, he is by far the best villain that Bioware has ever written -- granted, that is not a very high bar to cross for the most part, though Sun Li from Jade Empire was a shining exception. He too was convinced his plans were the answer to fixing a broken world. He too expressed respect for his student-turned-enemy, though that did not stop him from killing her once, and then doing his damndest to do so again. (And the offer to join him, as some players want to join Solas, turned out to be such a glorious trap for those foolish enough to fall into it.) His dying words left me with a lump in my throat though I sure as hell had no tender feelings left for him in the end. Right now I can't see any avenue for redemption for Solas, but I know that killing him would nonetheless choke me up too.

 

 

I strongly doubt that. Shackling players to a choice made real-world years ago regardless of what new developments the next game will reveal would be really bad writing.

 

 

That is the conversation I referred to earlier, yes. Sadly, the only thing Solas seems to have decided to apply to his situation is "keep going" i.e. "keep going with your plan".

 

 

My interpretation is quite different: his words apply to Solas perfectly, yet the game does not acknowledge that. All it does is use him as an author's mouthpiece to remind us that Solas isn't supposed to be pure evil, but without giving us any actual reason to see him as less than a monster. His good deeds for the ancient elven slaves 1,000 years ago don't mean he isn't a bad guy now, towards everyone who isn't an ancient elf.

 

The game also does not allow us to confront Cole and get some answers from him after the talk with Solas. I love and trust him more than anyone else but Cassandra, but even that is no longer enough to outweigh the complete horror of what Solas is doing, especially if Cole always knew everything yet told us nothing and still isn't telling us anything else he may know or feel. That would be a betrayal as bad as or worse than Solas' own, but without any of the foreshadowing or acknowledgement that Solas' betrayal gets, and it threatens to completely break Cole's character for me.

But that's the thing.  There is no betrayal possible by Cole because, like Solas, Cole is not capable of outright lying.  The authors aren't just using Cole as a mouthpiece to somehow fool you into having compassion for Solas, they have written the character to be exactly what it is:  A mind-reading spirit of compassion who only kills monsters and those who choose to hurt people.  Cole gives you plenty of hints in his own riddle-speak way throughout Trespasser and the main game of what exactly is going on with Solas, really, and the fact that Cole doesn't hate Solas is extremely telling.  Cole, in fact, feels compassion for him it would seem.  So, then, is Solas really going to hurt people?

The writers of DA have proven time and time again that they are masters of subtext in their storytelling.  They are not so amateur as to make it easy for the players to guess what is really going on here, and they are far too clever to have created some generic Dr. Evil type of trope bad guy that so many actually want to believe Solas is.

[Cobra's_back]

@wren "Cole, in fact, feels compassion for him it would seem.  So, then, is Solas really going to hurt people?"

 

Yes, he is. Solas flat out states this world is going to die, because he needs to help his people. His people are not modern elves. That doesn't mean he is the classic Dr. Evil. It means he is willing to do anything to help his people and you are just going to have to die.

 

I think an excellent option here would be to let players fail, and see the total destruction. That should put it in perspective. 

[Jaison1986]

She is one of the best Elves out there. She taught herself how to fight, and she is wise enough NOT to listen to Solas. She understands people. In Solas' ancient world, she would have been a slave. Instead, she is independent, and not like his mindless followers.

 

Bwahaha! Sera? Understand people? Are we talking about the elf that emotionally blackmails an Lavellan to give up on her beliefs for her own benefit? I don't think so. Someone that understands people doesn't act like that.

[myahele]

It makes sense why Sera refuses Solas. Being the vessel of Andruil, she saw through his lies or at the very least knew not to trust this "weirdy"

[Korva]

But that's the thing.  There is no betrayal possible by Cole because, like Solas, Cole is not capable of outright lying.  The authors aren't just using Cole as a mouthpiece to somehow fool you into having compassion for Solas,

 

Semantics. Of course the writers "fool" i.e. manipulate us. The whole point of Inquisition was, apparently, to establish Solas as a sometimes problematic but nonetheless fascinating character that we could become very close to. But all the positive feelings we have for him would never have existed if we had known the truth: that we weren't even people in his mind, that he considered -- and still considers! -- all our deaths to be completely acceptable collateral damage. Such manipulation is what writers do, and it can be done well or badly. Solas was brilliantly done in Inquisition: it showed both his good and his bad sides, his developing relationships with other characters, his obvious struggles with notions like who "his people" are or the importance of past versus presence. And throughout it all, there were more or less subtle red flags that, in retrospect, make me want to headdesk so hard because it all makes sense now.

 

In contrast, the manipulation via Cole in Trespasser is badly done in my eyes because it has none of that nuance and cannot be engaged with. Add to that the lack of content between Cole and the Inquisitor, and it does feel like he's mainly just there to beat us over the head with reminders that Solas isn't just a generic moustache-twirling badguy and that we should totally feel for him and probably consider redeeming him.

 

they have written the character to be exactly what it is:  A mind-reading spirit of compassion who only kills monsters and those who choose to hurt people.

 

Which is exactly what Solas did and is doing. He chose. He changed his mind about our worth, he made friends, but he nonetheless chose to turn against us and continue with his original plans.

 

Cole gives you plenty of hints in his own riddle-speak way throughout Trespasser and the main game of what exactly is going on with Solas, really, and the fact that Cole doesn't hate Solas is extremely telling.  Cole, in fact, feels compassion for him it would seem.

 

But not a single breath about any of Solas' past and countless intended future victims. That is my problem. As I said: it's completely fine and natural that Cole feels for Solas. However, he is not a wet blanket or a pushover, and his compassion is neither entirely unconditional nor limited to one man above everyone else. We need to be able to talk to him about this, not just passively hear pro-Solas soundbites, both for the sake of Cole's own integrity as a character and because even faith in Cole's insight and heart is not, IMO, enough to balance or even outweigh the atrocities Solas is planning when it comes to viewing Solas as anything but the monster he protests he isn't. Not without being able to engage with the matter, not without being able to ask questions.

 

So, then, is Solas really going to hurt people?

 

Yes. He already has. He gave the orb to Corypheus with the full intention of setting the end of the world in motion right there and then, and if it wasn't for Corpyheus' body-hopping powers, that would have been it.

 

The writers of DA have proven time and time again that they are masters of subtext in their storytelling.  They are not so amateur as to make it easy for the players to guess what is really going on here, and they are far too clever to have created some generic Dr. Evil type of trope bad guy that so many actually want to believe Solas is.

 

Neither is he some misunderstood romantic hero as others want to believe he is. He is a fantastically written character, but barring seriously mitigating new facts -- which Cole needs to tell us, if he knows or suspects anything -- there is little reason to believe he is not in fact a villain at this point. All the good he did for the ancient elves doesn't matter jack in the face of him planing to destroy the world now.

 

Bioware's writers have moments of sheer brilliance, moments of complete f*ckuppery, and anything in between. They are not perfect, though they did great with Solas himself, and I'm not going to trust them blindly when something bugs me as much as the way Cole is used in this DLC.

[Cobra's_back]

Bwahaha! Sera? Understand people? Are we talking about the elf that emotionally blackmails an Lavellan to give up on her beliefs for her own benefit? I don't think so. Someone that understands people doesn't act like that.

 

Did she do this? When? I didn't have that problem with her. Is this part of her romance? My elf romanced Solas for the tragic story angle.

 

My comments are about her dialogue exchange with Solas.

[Wren]

Semantics. Of course the writers "fool" i.e. manipulate us. The whole point of Inquisition was, apparently, to establish Solas as a sometimes problematic but nonetheless fascinating character that we could become very close to. But all the positive feelings we have for him would never have existed if we had known the truth: that we weren't even people in his mind, that he considered -- and still considers! -- all our deaths to be completely acceptable collateral damage. Such manipulation is what writers do, and it can be done well or badly. Solas was brilliantly done in Inquisition: it showed both his good and his bad sides, his developing relationships with other characters, his obvious struggles with notions like who "his people" are or the importance of past versus presence. And throughout it all, there were more or less subtle red flags that, in retrospect, make me want to headdesk so hard because it all makes sense now.

 

In contrast, the manipulation via Cole in Trespasser is badly done in my eyes because it has none of that nuance and cannot be engaged with. Add to that the lack of content between Cole and the Inquisitor, and it does feel like he's mainly just there to beat us over the head with reminders that Solas isn't just a generic moustache-twirling badguy and that we should totally feel for him and probably consider redeeming him.

 

 

Which is exactly what Solas did and is doing. He chose. He changed his mind about our worth, he made friends, but he nonetheless chose to turn against us and continue with his original plans.

 

 

But not a single breath about any of Solas' past and countless intended future victims. That is my problem. As I said: it's completely fine and natural that Cole feels for Solas. However, he is not a wet blanket or a pushover, and his compassion is neither entirely unconditional nor limited to one man above everyone else. We need to be able to talk to him about this, not just passively hear pro-Solas soundbites, both for the sake of Cole's own integrity as a character and because even faith in Cole's insight and heart is not, IMO, enough to balance or even outweigh the atrocities Solas is planning when it comes to viewing Solas as anything but the monster he protests he isn't. Not without being able to engage with the matter, not without being able to ask questions.

 

 

Yes. He already has. He gave the orb to Corypheus with the full intention of setting the end of the world in motion right there and then, and if it wasn't for Corpyheus' body-hopping powers, that would have been it.

 

 

Neither is he some misunderstood romantic hero as others want to believe he is. He is a fantastically written character, but barring seriously mitigating new facts -- which Cole needs to tell us, if he knows or suspects anything -- there is little reason to believe he is not in fact a villain at this point. All the good he did for the ancient elves doesn't matter jack in the face of him planing to destroy the world now.

 

Bioware's writers have moments of sheer brilliance, moments of complete f*ckuppery, and anything in between. They are not perfect, though they did great with Solas himself, and I'm not going to trust them blindly when something bugs me as much as the way Cole is used in this DLC.

You raise excellent points.  I wonder if there's anything "telling" in Cole's epilogue slides.  Hmmm. This gives me a lot to wonder about.

[panamakira]

 

Varric and Solas are interesting , because Varric is the wise one .

• Varric: What's with you and the doom stuff? Are you always this cheery or is the hole in the sky getting to you?
• Solas: I've no idea what you mean.
• Varric: All the "fallen empire" crap you go on about. What's so great about empires anyway?
• Varric: So we lost the Deep Roads, and Orzammar's too proud to ask for help. So what? We're not Orzammar and we're not our empire.
• Varric: There are tens of thousands of us living up here in the sunlight now, and it's not that bad.
• Varric: Life goes on. It's just different than it used to be.
• Solas: And you have no concept of what that difference cost you.
• Varric: Oh I know what it didn't cost me. I'm still here, even after all those thaigs fell.
• Solas: You truly are content to sit in the sun, never wondering what you could've been, never fighting back?
• Varric: Ha, you've got it all wrong, Chuckles. This is fighting back.
• Solas: How does passively accepting your fate constitute a fight?
• Varric: In that story of yours—the fisherman watching the stars, dying alone—you thought he gave up right?
• Solas: Yes.
• Varric: But he went on living. He lost everyone, but he still got up every morning. He made a life, even if it was alone.
• Varric: That's the world. Everything you build, it tears down. Everything you've got, it takes—and it's gone forever.
• Varric: The only choices you get are to lie down and die or keep going. He kept going. That's as close to beating the world as anyone gets.
• Solas: Well said. Perhaps I was mistaken.

 

Varric is wise indeed. This is pretty much what Solas still doesn't understand. He feels like he awoke in a world of Tranquil because people lost their connection to the Fade and that somehow makes them less than what they used to be. Yet he hasn't noticed how people win small victories every day by just living. The hardest path to walk is to live through the struggles of life. It's easy to die and give up but for the modern Elves, as hard and tough as it is, they wake up every day and don't give up and by simply living, they're still fighting back even in a small way. There is greatness in that. If only he chose to guide them, instead of pressing a "reset button".

 

I wish we get a chance to get that message through to him. There is still hope in Thedas, even if it looks all wrong now. That would be the one thing my Lavellan would want him to understand. I also feel like we don't have all the information possible. We might learn more when we go to Tevinter.

[Jaison1986]

Did she do this? When? I didn't have that problem with her. Is this part of her romance? My elf romanced Solas for the tragic story angle.

 

My comments are about her dialogue exchange with Solas.

 

 

 

Easily the worst Sera moment. This is like an male Inquisitor that tries to blackmail Cassandra to give up on her religion because they don't like it. How selfish is that? So, in the end, you can say what you like about Solas, but strictly on a personal level, I don't find Sera better then him in the slightest.

[ModernAcademic]

I wonder what Solas' opinion is regarding Cullen and Leliana... 

[Darkstarr11]

The more I look at it, the more I see that deep down, Solas is a reflection of the darker aspects of the positive points of some of your companions.  Cassandra is all about faith.  Solas has a deep and profound lack of faith.  Cass believes that the Maker has  a plan.  She struggles with it, if you listen to her, but in the end, she grabs tight to her faith and doesn't let go.  Solas...lost faith.  In everything.  He does it himself because he doesn't trust anyone else to do it.  He doesn't deviate from his plan because he DOESN'T believe this world is better.  He doesn't have faith, it shows in how he views the world.  He thinks that if the 'magic' is brought back, the world will be better.  He can't foresee a future without it.  He doesn't trust the world to improve, to get better, so he believes he must burn it down, and rebuild what was once before.

 

Varric believes that you have to keep moving on.  That you don't give up.  Throughout the game, he continually strives to keep upbeat, even when life is basically beating him like Stewie beat Brian when he owned him money.  Solas DID give up.  He gave up on people.  I don't think he's continuing on with his plan, he's falling back because he CAN'T keep going.  He falls back on his plan to remake the world because he gives up on the now.  Some part of him HAS to know that restoring the Elves of old is like replacing an angry dog with a much bigger, meaner far more rabid bear...and we ALL know how bears in Thedas work.  

 

Blackwall has this rosy, idealistic view of the Wardens.  Incorrect yes, but his view that they are heroes without measure is admirable.  He gravitates towards it because he wants...he NEEDS to feel that he can be better than what he is.  Solas lost his idealism.  He is cynical, and sees heroes as chess pieces that will inevitably be sacrificed in a bloody game of war that he can never truly win.  Solas needs to believe that something he has done can go right.  So far, he sees himself as a failure.  Every time he does something right, something worse happens.  He tries to free his people, and he takes something from them.  He tries to restore his people, he nearly dooms the world.  

 

When he looks at Sera though, I've always though that he is mentally kicking himself.  He tries a few times, to get her to think about the elves, to think about culture, and what he believes to be 'their' people.  Sera doesn't care.  She's moved past that.  Solas...he looks at Sera, and he HATES himself for it.  Why?  Everything that she is, EVERYTHING...can be traced RIGHT BACK to what he did.  To him, Sera is a constant, foul-mouthed reminder that he screwed up.  He sees her and he thinks, 'I did that to the elves.  She can't see what we were because I failed them.'  Even a Dalish Inquisitor would make him feel such a massive build up of guilt that it would be nearly intolerable.  A romanced Lavellan?  If he had met her when the elves were immortal, he could have spent the rest of eternity with her.  He doomed their relationship before it began because he is so set upon atoning for his mistakes that he refuses to see the future that he could have had with her.  He gives up the NOW for the past.  NOT the future.  Sera and Lavellan are salt in the wound to him.  In a way, he might even justify his actions by thinking that he is doing it FOR them.  'I will make the world so that future generations of elves never have to be so divorced from their People as I ruined the world for them'.  

 

I used to think he was like Magneto...but, I'm not so sure anymore.  He's more like, Xavier...and not just because the...er...hair...cut...no, it's because of who he is.  A teacher, a mentor, and a friend who makes horrible decisions and is forced to continually fix them.  How many people did Charles mind rape into submission?  For the greater good?  The inconsistencies in Cole MAY be attributed to Solas messing with his head to prevent others from knowing his plans.  It's a wild shot in the dark, I know, but there it is.  Thing is, what would Xavier have been like if HE had gone extremist and Erik had tried to be the hero?  Well, they've gone that route in the comics, I think...ANYWAY...thing is, that is kinda how the Inquisitor and Fen'Harel evolved over DAI.  Except, at the end, in this case, Xavier took away Erik's powers for good...

[MariNia]

Great topic ,a lot to read 

Its amazing how they made char so good and evil at same time (Solas).

[Korva]

You raise excellent points.  I wonder if there's anything "telling" in Cole's epilogue slides.  Hmmm. This gives me a lot to wonder about.

 

The problem with the epilogue is that it's as non-interactive and intentionally vague as the rest.

 

I want to trust Cole's instincts on this, both because I don't want to lose that trust in my favourite character and because I'm enough of a sucker for redemption stories to want to see some hope for Solas as well. It's also more interesting from a narrative POV, in my book, to follow up an absolutely sublime build-up like they did for Solas with a struggle for his mind and soul rather than just shank him and kick the corpse for good measure. Thing is, as heavily stacked against Solas as the scales are, the writers need to give me more to work with, from Solas and from Cole. The former we probably can't ask for, yet, but the latter absolutely needed a post-reveal talk to work some things out, ask questions (hard, harsh questions if needed), and see signs that he doesn't handwave the horror of Solas' deeds and plans away just because Solas is such a poor sad puppy who did so many good things for the ancient elves.

 

Yet he hasn't noticed how people win small victories every day by just living.

 

It's not as spectacular or wondrous as working great feats of magic with a snap of a finger, but it is likely much harder and deserves respect for that. Still, he does desperately want that magic back. He also cares for spirits, which is good because not enough people do, and I even kind of share his desire for a world in which spirits and mortals could mingle more easily for mutual understanding and benefit. I'd be all for a truly mystical, high-magic, high-fantasy setting instead of the generic pseudo-medieval stuff, if only the price was not so off the charts. I think to counter Solas' plans, we (and the writers) need to take the spirit world into consideration as well or we're missing part of his motivation.
 

The more I look at it, the more I see that deep down, Solas is a reflection of the darker aspects of the positive points of some of your companions.

 

Yes, very well put. They bring out his good sides but also show clearly where he is weak and how he fails.

 

Spot-on about Sera most of all, she must be a bigger kick in the guts than just about anyone else.

[ravenesse]

I don't like Solas' conversation with Dorian. If one of Solas' followers disobeyed they would be dead. Ancient Elven civilization: A few owning everyone else. They all played GODS.

But at least - coming from that kind of culture - Dorian could relate. He would hate it, but is used to.

[panamakira]

It's not as spectacular or wondrous as working great feats of magic with a snap of a finger, but it is likely much harder and deserves respect for that. Still, he does desperately want that magic back. He also cares for spirits, which is good because not enough people do, and I even kind of share his desire for a world in which spirits and mortals could mingle more easily for mutual understanding and benefit. I'd be all for a truly mystical, high-magic, high-fantasy setting instead of the generic pseudo-medieval stuff, if only the price was not so off the charts. I think to counter Solas' plans, we (and the writers) need to take the spirit world into consideration as well or we're missing part of his motivation.

No I get it. The way things work with mages right now is a mess. The fear of possession and spirits becoming demons when they cross the Veil is an issue and I do wish we could resolve that besides, "the moment the Veil comes down, this world will be destroyed".

[renfrees]

*snip*

 

The game also does not allow us to confront Cole and get some answers from him after the talk with Solas. I love and trust him more than anyone else but Cassandra, but even that is no longer enough to outweigh the complete horror of what Solas is doing, especially if Cole always knew everything yet told us nothing and still isn't telling us anything else he may know or feel. That would be a betrayal as bad as or worse than Solas' own, but without any of the foreshadowing or acknowledgement that Solas' betrayal gets, and it threatens to completely break Cole's character for me.

Solas can control Cole's ability to read minds when it comes to himself. As seen from this banter, Solas makes Cole forget what he saw in his mind:

 

Cole: (If the Inquisitor had the vallaslin removed) Ar lasa mala revas. You are so beautiful. But then you turned away. Why?

Solas: I had no choice.

Cole: She is bare-faced, embarrassed, and she doesn't know. She thinks it's because of her.

Solas: You cannot heal this, Cole. Please, let it go.

Inquisitor: Perhaps Cole can get a better answer from you than I did.

Cole: He hurts, an old pain from before, when everything sang the same.

Cole: You're real, and it means everyone could be real. It changes everything, but it can't.

Cole: They sleep, masked in a mirror, hiding, hurting, and to wake them... (gasps) Where did it go?

Solas: I apologize, Cole. That is not a pain you can heal. 

[Wren]

Solas can control Cole's ability to read minds when it comes to himself. As seen from this banter, Solas makes Cole forget what he saw in his mind:

 

Cole: (If the Inquisitor had the vallaslin removed) Ar lasa mala revas. You are so beautiful. But then you turned away. Why?

Solas: I had no choice.

Cole: She is bare-faced, embarrassed, and she doesn't know. She thinks it's because of her.

Solas: You cannot heal this, Cole. Please, let it go.

Inquisitor: Perhaps Cole can get a better answer from you than I did.

Cole: He hurts, an old pain from before, when everything sang the same.

Cole: You're real, and it means everyone could be real. It changes everything, but it can't.

Cole: They sleep, masked in a mirror, hiding, hurting, and to wake them... (gasps) Where did it go?

Solas: I apologize, Cole. That is not a pain you can heal. 

Thank you for pointing this out!

[renfrees]

Thank you for pointing this out!

This banter, in hindsight, is very telling. First of all, Cole knew of Solas' plan - probably not to full extent, but the general line. Secondly, it makes me wonder if Solas was truly that powerless. I doubt what he performed here is a feat easily accomplished by a mere mage.

[Korva]

No I get it. The way things work with mages right now is a mess. The fear of possession and spirits becoming demons when they cross the Veil is an issue and I do wish we could resolve that besides, "the moment the Veil comes down, this world will be destroyed".

 

Same. It's interesing how one or two well-written characters can completely flip one's opinion on an aspect of the lore and setting -- from "meh, don't give a toss" to "spirits are fascinating and matter too", as Solas and especially Cold did for me, both IC and as a player. The Avvar and apparently also the Rivaini seers show it can be done, but probably not to an extent that would truly satisfy Solas.

 

I mentioned this because I noticed that a lot of the debate about Solas, including what I've said about it, often doesn't mention or only glosses over the value he places on spirits.

 

Solas can control Cole's ability to read minds when it comes to himself. As seen from this banter, Solas makes Cole forget what he saw in his mind:

 

[...]

Cole: They sleep, masked in a mirror, hiding, hurting, and to wake them... (gasps) Where did it go?

 

... that is one ominous line, now that we know. He was just a breath away from reading and revealing the whole plan. So when we walk in on Cole reaching out to Solas and Solas making him forget, back in Skyhold after the credits, that wasn't the first time Solas messed with him? Thanks, that is interesting. I am annoyed with the devs for not letting us talk to the companions post-Solas and get some answers from Cole in particular ... but this makes me feel a little better about Cole's silence on the matter, and about his one-sided pro-Solas soundbites, because it helps me hope that Solas didn't allow him to know/remember the worst bits.

 

It makes sense, too, come to think of it. Solas must have known from the beginning that Cole's presence presents a significant risk to his secrecy. Yet he still advocated for allowing Cole to stay, and for Cole to live and trust his purpose, and became very close friends with him. Having an emergency measure like this at his disposal would let him care for and protect this rare and precious spirit while also protecting his own plans. It's ... unpleasant, but I can see how Solas might justify it to himself.

 

I must say, even now I am impressed and touched by how encouraging and gentle Solas is with Cole. When he tries to nudge Cole's attention away from himself and even when he messes with Cole's mind, he never gets angry, never faults Compassion for being Compassion. The only time he becomes harsh is when Cole wants him to violate his core value of freedom for all, including spirits, in order to "protect" Cole via binding.

 

This banter, in hindsight, is very telling. First of all, Cole knew of Solas' plan - probably not to full extent, but the general line. Secondly, it makes me wonder if Solas was truly that powerless. I doubt what he performed here is a feat easily accomplished by a mere mage.

 

Heh, I'm looking at it from the perspective of one who hopes that the banter shows Solas didn't let him know/remember the whole plan, as far as bring-down-the-Veil-though-it-will-kill-everyone is concerned ... because I really couldn't forgive Cole if he did know it all. But I agree that this shows a side of Solas' powers that is most likely not something that a "mere mage", even a powerful one, could duplicate. Dorian is no slouch and neither is Vivienne, but they never show any sign of being able to kick Cole out of their heads and make him forget what he saw.

[Gervaise]

Whilst Solas could make Cole forget the worst bits about his actions in the past, I was rather disappointed that Cole didn't respond to the evidence of his own eyes and ears.   I had him with me going through the old library where we see all the skeletons of people who got trapped there and starved to death (just like the original Cole) and we hear the desperation in their voices after the Veil went up.   Many of them must have been connected to Fen'Harel in some way because they are fully aware that he is responsible (although I seem to recall the library allows elves to connect mentally, so may be they did just see what he did through this means).   Whatever the case, these elves were not the evanuris, although they have a pathetic hope at first that  their "gods" will come to their rescue and put everything right.    All that pain and suffering and yet afterwards Cole is still maintaining that Solas is a "good wolf" who doesn't hurt people.  

 

It seems to me that if Solas was so distraught about the effects of his action, he could at least have tried to help the survivors.  Instead he just disappeared and went to sleep.   Likely it is because he overstretched himself and needed to recover.   I still wonder how he escaped the effects, why he wasn't wandering around in a daze.   Presumably he must have had an anchor of some sort that protected him.

 

I also objected to his comparison of the elf survivors with tranquil.   Tranquil have no emotions and it is clear the survivors most certainly did still possess all their emotions.     The fact that he observed them seemed to indicate he could still have helped in some way and didn't.     Just went for a nap because he couldn't face what he had done to them.    Then wakes up millennia later and decides to do the same to the current generation of people in the world.  

 

When my girl Lavellan yells "I have to save Solas" (because I play her as really messed up in her head over him), I got the reaction "Dorian Disapproves."  Pretty sure I got the same from Cassandra and Sera, although it scrolled through rather quick.   They at least had an appropriate reaction to the revelation about Solas, in particular that he gave the orb to Corypheus.     In fact the only companion who I believe "Great Approves" was Cole.     What about all the death and suffering at the Conclave and after Cole?   All could have been avoided if the "good wolf" had learned from his past mistakes.

[Darkstarr11]

Solas said he was too weak to open the Orb when he met Mythal, right?  Exactly how powerful would have needed to be?  Obviously, Corypheus WASN'T powerful enough...sure he could crack it, but he couldn't control the magical energies.  It destroyed him (THAT him, at least), and turned the Temple of Sacred Ashes into the Temple of Regular Ol' People Ashes.  He slips into the Fade like everyone else breathes.  He makes Cole forget as easily as Cole makes people...um...forget.  Yeah, anyway, exactly HOW powerful was he during that whole time?  Was it his direct mystical energies that were weak?  His mental powers certainly seemed up to snuff.  Enough to alter and erase Coles memories.  It was chilling that he could do that...though perhaps he should have put a LITTLE more effort into it if he romanced Lavellan.  SHE probably didn't need to hear her own doubts out loud in front of the group like that...good one Curly.

 

Also, he FOOLED Bull.  Bull, trained as a spy, COULDN'T spot Solas as one.  And yes, Solas WAS the best spy in the series.  He played everyone, and recovered quickly from his missteps...which were numerous.  No matter his personal feelings (friends, or romantic partner) made him alter his course.  Guy practically sat in on the meetings that gave him EVERYTHING he needed.  Even if you WEREN'T friends, he was a short walk from the War Room.  Apparently, he can read minds...OH, look what is RIGHT above him!  The entire intelligence network.  Cullen and Josie were within easy reach as well.  Solas could have had spirits watching them, and taking notes!  OR he could have asked Cole what he noticed, and then just...what?  You FORGOT our conversation?  Its okay, go back to the tavern.

[Korva]

Whilst Solas could make Cole forget the worst bits about his actions in the past, I was rather disappointed that Cole didn't respond to the evidence of his own eyes and ears.   I had him with me going through the old library where we see all the skeletons of people who got trapped there and starved to death (just like the original Cole) and we hear the desperation in their voices after the Veil went up.  [...]  All that pain and suffering and yet afterwards Cole is still maintaining that Solas is a "good wolf" who doesn't hurt people.  

 

 

[...] What about all the death and suffering at the Conclave and after Cole?   All could have been avoided if the "good wolf" had learned from his past mistakes.

 

Yes and yes. Those are perfect examples of why I grit my teeth at the way Cole was used in the DLC. Even if he was sincerely ignorant due to Solas' strong self-control and ability to interfere with his spirit-powers, these facts must have been a rude awakening that absolutely demand acknowledgement. Without that, Cole is cheapened as a character in his own right. And if he was aware but nonetheless decided to keep silent and thus tacitly support Solas, he's at best heavily in denial and at worst sees nothing wrong with it all. That would completely destroy the character for me -- and such deceit, too, would have to be addressed instead of ignored by the writers.

 

Both Blackwall's and Solas' lies are presented as what they are: massive sledgehammer blows. Both were also foreshadowed for those who know where to look. Cole on the other hand was a positive, hopeful, genuinely caring character with no red flags about potentially being willing to cover for a man actively planning the destruction of the world. That's another reason why I can't believe he knew everything. There's neither a setup nor a payoff for Cole in a role as a willing deceiver.

 

He got the short end of the stick big time, both in his role as a friend to the Inquisitor and as a character whose motto is "help the hurt, save the small", as someone who is perfectly capable of drawing a deadly line between those who are guilty but sincerely repentant, and those who choose to do harm when they could change their course instead.

[Darkstarr11]

Yes and yes. Those are perfect examples of why I grit my teeth at the way Cole was used in the DLC. Even if he was sincerely ignorant due to Solas' strong self-control and ability to interfere with his spirit-powers, these facts must have been a rude awakening that absolutely demand acknowledgement. Without that, Cole is cheapened as a character in his own right. And if he was aware but nonetheless decided to keep silent and thus tacitly support Solas, he's at best heavily in denial and at worst sees nothing wrong with it all. That would completely destroy the character for me -- and such deceit, too, would have to be addressed instead of ignored by the writers.

 

Both Blackwall's and Solas' lies are presented as what they are: massive sledgehammer blows. Both were also foreshadowed for those who know where to look. Cole on the other hand was a positive, hopeful, genuinely caring character with no red flags about potentially being willing to cover for a man actively planning the destruction of the world. That's another reason why I can't believe he knew everything. There's neither a setup nor a payoff for Cole in a role as a willing deceiver.

 

He got the short end of the stick big time, both in his role as a friend to the Inquisitor and as a character whose motto is "help the hurt, save the small", as someone who is perfectly capable of drawing a deadly line between those who are guilty but sincerely repentant, and those who choose to do harm when they could change their course instead.

 

It makes me wonder if they are done with Cole.  Of your companions, Sera, Dorian, and Cole have the best chance of showing up again AS companions.  The inconsistencies you pointed out may have been the writers just...not knowing what to do, but it also CAN be chalked up to massive manipulation on the part of Solas.  IF so, what happens when Cole is away from him for a while?  He can't seem to find Solas, as Solas is doing everything he can to evade his old allies, but you know Cole.  He HAS to help.  If he returns to the Fade, is he going to stumble across his old memories?  Solas CAN'T have erased EVERY spirits memories, and a few may have been witness to what Solas did.  How WILL he react?  If we see Cole again, will he have remembered or seen enough to know that Solas HAS to be stopped?  If he was more human, is he in denial?  Or is he keeping his thoughts to himself out of respect for an old friend...the Inquisitor OR Solas...maybe both?  If he was more human, it might have affected him deeply.  He might simply be retreating inward, as some people do, when confronted with something horrible about someone they care about.  Maybe he just needs time to steel his resolve and come to terms with what Solas is.  Over time, he MIGHT feel that Solas has betrayed him, and THAT won't go over well.  Especially if the Inquisitor is his friend.

 

I don't know.  I've seen denial...I've been in denial about horrible facts before (Soylent Green ISN'T people...it ISN'T!!!  ), and it takes time to deal with some things.  I HOPE that is the case with Cole.  That he is just in denial about Solas...that he just...wants to believe the best.  I DO wish we got to see the aftermath...I expect a reaction SIMILAR to what he experienced with the Templar who let the...real...Cole starve to death.  Except, Varric MIGHT not be around to stop him this time...or, will hand hm a LOADED Bianca...

 

I am interested though in Vivienne.  Lets be honest, Viv and Solas have a LOT in common now.  Solas MAY not want to admit it, but he is a traditionalist, like Viv.  Except, he wants to bring back a traditional society by dropping it on top of the one that already exists.  He wants to restore what once was, AS does Vivienne.  She wants to restore the Circles to what she believes is for the best of all.  HOWEVER, in the end, Vivienne is willing to restore what she wants but compromise at the end, due to the Inquisitor.  She decides, even grudgingly, that the best solution is to work together to rebuild.  She doesn't LIKE the College, but will coexist if it means peace.  Solas can't do that.  He can't look for a way to coexist.  He can't...or won't...look for a solution that works for both parties.  Vivienne, if you remember back at the beginning, was so pro-Circle it made the teeth ache.  For her, restoring the Circle was EVERYTHING...screw the cost to the mages or anyone else.  Her way was the ONLY way...now look at the ending slides for Trespasser.  She has come a LONG way.  Solas?  Can't imagine coexistence, EVEN if he cares for his friends, and the Inquisitor.  Vivienne has expanded her views.  Solas...has narrowed his vision immensely.  

 

Would Solas have wanted Cole to be more spirit-like because he believed Cole would be more open to his line of thinking perhaps?  Or because spirit Cole would have the best chance at surviving to his new future?  I mean, if Solas could help one of his old companions survive past what he was doing, would that just be something that he could hold on to as a way of not sinking all the way into depression over his plan to rip apart the Veil?  At least Cole made it through?  Where as a more human Cole would be too human to survive what was to come and be destroyed in the chaos?  Hence his frustration at the Inquisitor for going along with Varric's plan?  I mean, he couldn't TELL them why he was upset, and just seems to BE disappointed without really explaining much as to WHY he was disappointed, which was odd because Solas tends to be long winded about pretty much everything else, doesn't he?

[TraiHarder]

And yet Vivienne does not intend or cause a fraction of the harm he does. He perfectly justifies her worldview, too, because he is more of a poster child for the horrors of uncontrolled magic than even Corypheus was. They are both supremely arrogant and hypocritical. Vivienne reaches for the Sunburst Throne despite proclaiming that magic should serve and not rule. Solas argues he is neither a god nor a monster yet acts like both in his bid to recreate a "better" world. Where Cassandra shares some of his better qualities, Vivienne does his some of his worst.

What how is Vivienne hypnotical. She never says one shouldn't reach for power. She constantly says one should strive for more actually. As for the SunBurst there's nothing wrong with going for it. The Chantry doesn't actively rule over anything. They are just leaders of faith nothing more. They don't make laws for nations or require taxes yadayada. She doesn't use Magic to make people her slaves.