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Why Josephine's romance is, in my opinion, the worst one I've ever played


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#1
Xilizhra

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For starters, let me clarify: this is not a thread to bash Josephine's character. I quite like her character; if I didn't, I wouldn't have romanced her to begin with. None of the problems here really have anything to do with her character; they mostly have to do with story structure and the entire romance's bizarre implementation. Two primary flaws jump out at me.

 

 

1. Josephine's attraction is based on nothing.

 

I will admit, I'm not really a fan of DA2's style, and DAI's perfection, of gating any sort of romantic thoughts behind PC-initiated flirt dialogue options, as they make LIs seem like androids who have switches to flip to activate their romance modes. However, no one (whose romance I've played) has it worse than Josephine. While companion romances at least have approval to give some kind of reason as to why they like you, which could be expanded further by the PC flirting with them, this isn't strictly necessary; ME1 had both of your potential LIs bring up crushes they had on you, and ME2 has various solutions for all the LIs who don't. Kelly's interactions with Shepard enters a state of mutual flirtation very early on if you pursue that, with both of them clarifying it in the next conversation; Garrus' romance is based on a FoB agreement that turns abruptly romantic at the end, Thane appears to be just lonely and looking for companionship (I have no idea about Jacob, I admit). So, approval isn't actually needed.

 

However, Josephine's romance appears to be built to emphasize every possible flaw of both the approval-less system and the flirtation-gate system. It's true that Josephine does sometimes respond positively to your flirts (other times, completely ignoring them in a manner that seems wholly OOC for someone so socially adept), but all of this is completely obviated when Leliana tells you that Josephine is oblivious to your romantic interest, and has given minimal if any signs of feeling any herself. Once the conversation where you actually start your relationship appears, the artificiality of the entire arrangement comes to a head when Josephine's response to your just stating outright that you're romantically interested in her is, paraphrased, "You've only known me a couple of months, this makes no sense." Then, once you compliment her, she's suddenly willing to get romantic (or rather, "would not object to" doing so) without giving any indication whatsoever of why she wants to do so with you. Furthermore, Josephine never says, in the entire romance, why she actually likes you. It's definitely not because of philosophical agreement, as you can completely disregard her wishes in her personal quest by having Leliana attack the House of Repose vault, and that only gets worse when you consider...

 

 

2. The duel is horses*it.

 

Apparently, this is the scene that her animation budget was used on instead of a sex scene. I still think that you could include a sex scene for those who wanted it and skip it for those who didn't, as I'm fairly sure was done in other romances, but that's actually secondary to the main issue, which is that the big culmination of Josephine's romance is terrible in every possible way, except maybe voice acting.

 

The biggest, most egregious problem is that the duel completely disregards Josephine's wishes; Josephine is the only LI where barging into her personal life to "solve" a problem in a manner that she explicitly does not want is actually mandatory. This would be a huge black mark by itself, but it compounds on the stupidity in several ways:

-The duel is called via war table operation, with Cullen, in the same room as Josephine, meaning that it makes no sense at all that she wouldn't know about it.

-The duel is in a style that the Inquisitor is wholly unfamiliar with. There's really no logical outcome to this other than the Inquisitor looking stupid and losing Josephine.

-It relies on ridiculously convenient timing for Josephine to show up right then.

-It also relies on even more ridiculous romantic cliches for Josephine to be stunned into a romantic stupor by the Inquisitor recovering by saying "Because I love you!" Which is a terrible line itself, because one would think that actually loving her, as opposed to trying to prove some idiotic point, would entail letting her handle her bloody engagement problem in the way that she wished to.

-It completely undermines Josephine's character and themes, which are consistently based around diplomacy, intelligence, and nonviolence, by finishing off her romance with a completely moronic act of ill-considered violence that only turns out well due to dumb luck. To me, it feels like if Sera's romance culminated in the Inquisitor rescuing a Tevinter magister from his own angry slaves, or if Dorian's romance ended in a threesome with a woman.

 

 

So, there you have it. Josephine really is a good character, I just wish she'd had a romance to match.


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#2
Just My Moniker

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#3
themikefest

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I like her romance and liked the duel.


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#4
thats1evildude

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I quite liked the duel scene. It's quite romantic.

Technically speaking, there was no particular reason why Leliana liked the Warden either. You had to raise her approval, but that could be done by giving her dog bones.
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#5
Arvaarad

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The biggest, most egregious problem is that the duel completely disregards Josephine's wishes; Josephine is the only LI where barging into her personal life to "solve" a problem in a manner that she explicitly does not want is actually mandatory.


Dorian also tells you not to deal with his amulet problem.
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#6
Xilizhra

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Dorian also tells you not to deal with his amulet problem.

That's not a romance I've played; I'll take it into account.

 

 

I quite liked the duel scene. It's quite romantic.

Technically speaking, there was no particular reason why Leliana liked the Warden either. You had to raise her approval, but that could be done by giving her dog bones.

Gift mechanics hit every companion in that game equally; it's silly, but I could choose not to exploit them.



#7
ComedicSociopathy

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Well, that's unfortunate. Hope you find better satisfaction in DA 4. 



#8
Xilizhra

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Well, that's unfortunate. Hope you find better satisfaction in DA 4. 

Thanks. I fully anticipate doing so.



#9
vertigomez

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I'll admit I did find it a little strange that she went from totally oblivious / "I know there's NO way you could possibly feel ~that way~ about me, what a totally ridiculous notion, silly Leliana and her silly ideas" to... suddenly making out with you. >____>

But I figured it was supposed to be a cutesy character quirk or something, so eh.
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#10
Hanako Ikezawa

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Josephine is by far the best romance path I've ever played. I hope there are characters and romance paths like hers in the future. 


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#11
Xilizhra

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Josephine is by far the best romance path I've ever played. I hope there are characters and romance paths like hers in the future. 

Am I wrong to guess that this is mostly because she's only romance path that satisfies your demisexuality?



#12
Hanako Ikezawa

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Am I wrong to guess that this is mostly because she's only romance path that satisfies your demisexuality?

That's part of it, but not the main reason. After all there are other romances in DAI that do that too to extents. Plus my second favorite DA romance is Merrill, and that doesn't. I mostly just like her personality during it and how cute and sweet the whole thing is rather than the angst most Bioware romance have. 



#13
ComedicSociopathy

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That's part of it, but not the main reason. After all there are other romances in DAI that do that too to extents. Plus my second favorite DA romance is Merrill, and that doesn't. I mostly just like her personality during it and how cute and sweet the whole thing is rather than the angst most Bioware romance have. 

 

Personally, I'm sort of fan of angst when it comes to DA romances. Adds some much needed conflict to the romance and can create stakes that make the eventual resolution more powerful. Which is why I was hoping that the whole secret lovers trope that happens before the duel (which is really, really stupid, but I guess can also be fun in how cheesy it is) would be expanded upon in the romance arc.

 

But, hey, sometimes people just want an adorable fairy tale romance that isn't focused on overt sexuality. Nothing wrong with that and Bioware providing that with Josie is awesome.  :)


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#14
SardaukarElite

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Much as I like pretending to be Errol Flynn the duel didn't make any sense at all. If you take it out of the romance then I don't feel there's really much left either, it just sort of happens.


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#15
Hanako Ikezawa

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Personally, I'm sort of fan of angst when it comes to DA romances. Adds some much needed conflict to the romance and can create stakes that make the eventually resolution more powerful. Which is why I was hoping that the whole secret lovers trope that happens before the duel (which is really, really stupid, but I guess can also be fun in how cheesy it is) would be expanded upon in the romance arc.

 

But, hey, sometimes people just want an adorable fairy tale romance that isn't focused on overt sexuality. Nothing wrong with that and Bioware providing that with Josie is awesome.  :)

Oh I agree having romances with angst and conflict can be very interesting. I love Merrill's romance, and it has plenty of that. But like you said sometimes people want a fairy tale, purely sweet romance and Josephine was the first time in DA that happened. 

 

DAO:

Alistair: Has his whole depression about Duncan, him being heir to the throne, and possibly dying in the final battle. 

Leliana: Has an angsty and tragic backstory.

Morrigan: Has problems with commitment, possibly conceives your child then leaves.

Zevran: Has an angsty and tragic backstory. 

 

DA2:

Anders: Is struggling from becoming an abomination and commits an act of mass murder and terrorism to try to spark a war. 

Fenris: Has an angsty and tragic backstory, plus has issues when romancing him. 

Isabela: Her involvement in the Qunari situation where she seemingly betrays you, troubles with commitment. 

Merrill: Has a tragic story with her clan leading to her being alone without you. 

Sebastian: Forces you to kill a possible friend under threat of him attacking a city. 

 

DAI: 

Blackwall: Everything he was was a lie, revealed to have murdered an innocent family and gave up his men for his own hide. 

Cassandra: Having a tragic backstory, deals with the organization she served being full of lies. 

Cullen: PTSD from events of DAO, dealing with how that shaped him in DA2, struggling to overcome an addiction. 

Dorian: Has an angsty backstory involving issues with family and homeland. 

Sera: Has issues with various revelations throughout the game, especially if you are an elf. 

Solas: He leaves, turns out to be the Dread Wolf, reveals his plan to destroy the world, removes your arm. 

The Iron Bull: Has PTSD and an identity crises, betrays you if you have him stay in the Qun. 


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#16
Qun00

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I quite liked the duel scene. It's quite romantic.
Technically speaking, there was no particular reason why Leliana liked the Warden either. You had to raise her approval, but that could be done by giving her dog bones.


The keyword is "could".

The option of raising her approval by having similar views and showing kindness to others still existed.

#17
Drasanil

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The option of raising her approval by having similar views and showing kindness to others still existed.

 

Not as fun as the idea of feeding her dog treats though. Not that I ever did (I gave them to Sten) since I just kind of ignored her any ways. 



#18
Xilizhra

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Not as fun as the idea of feeding her dog treats though. Not that I ever did (I gave them to Sten) since I just kind of ignored her any ways. 

Why would you need to give them to Sten? His approval is absurdly easy to raise in conversation.


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#19
Drasanil

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Why would you need to give them to Sten? His approval is absurdly easy to raise in conversation.

 

Because Qunari. Had nothing to do with farming approval, which as you said was ridiculously easy.



#20
TEWR

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Josephine's romance suffers from only one thing as far as I know (doing it for my Templar run of Nasir, even though in my hc Nasir romanced Josie and Cass). Anyway, the problem is more that her romance has... really not a whole lot of content to it, when her being an LI was planned since the beginning, and LIs that were added last minute (I believe Cullen? Probably just him actually) got more content.


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#21
TastesLikeTNT

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While I absolutely adore Josephine, I agree that her romance in itself is a bit... peculiar.

 

---

 

Inquisitor: Josephine, I am romantically attracted to you.

 

Josephine: ???¿?? You are?¿¿¿???? 

 

--- 

Inquisitor: Josephine, I love you!

 

Josephine: ???? You do??¿?? 


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#22
Pokemario

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I love her character, but dislike her romance arc. It's just so full of cliches and facepalm moments (IMHO) that I have a hard time getting into it.

Oh, that and the fact that she seems to reject your advances until after you've completed her personal quest. I know that that's just most likely because she is inexperienced in love, but still I can't help but to feel that way about it.



#23
AresKeith

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I'm surprised you didn't make this about Sera


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#24
Donk

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I'm surprised you didn't make this about Sera

 

She's moved on. ;)



#25
Lady Artifice

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I didn't like the dueling scene much either, though I still think Otranto is an engaging character.

 

To me, it feels like if Sera's romance culminated in the Inquisitor rescuing a Tevinter magister from his own angry slaves, or if Dorian's romance ended in a threesome with a woman.

 

This seems exaggerated, though. 


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