135 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

 

the exalted marches against the dales

 

That was mostly the fault of the elves.

[X Equestris]

Maybe it's just me but the fact that Solas created the Viel, shouldnt that blow a huge hole in chantry/andrastian lore? Not even mentioning the fact about titans and elvhen and the earth. So did this basically come out and say yup there is no maker and the old gods were actually the banished elves posing as dragons trying to be released from there prisons?
 
Just some food for thought.
I'd love to hear what you guys think.

The Chantry's doctrine is that the Maker created the world in two parts, the physical world and the Fade, and made a distinction between them. That much was true even before Solas created the Veil. I don't see anything here that really hurts the Chantry in any way.

[LobselVith8]

For one... None of them were gods.
For another.... all the gods were slavers.

In other words, not everything. Got it.

That was mostly the fault of the elves.

I don't think a unit of Emerald Knights trying to capture or kill a deserter, accidentally killing one woman who ran towards them, and then defending themselves from a group of humans who tried to kill them (and who were able to kill the human woman's elven lover) warranted a national incursion.

[X Equestris]

In other words, not everything. Got it.

I don't think a unit of Emerald Knights trying to capture or kill a deserter, accidentally killing one woman who ran towards them, and then defending themselves from a group of humans who tried to kill them (and who were able to kill the human woman's elven lover) warranted a national incursion.

You left out the part where Red Crossing got obliterated.

[LobselVith8]

You left out the part where Red Crossing got obliterated.

Defending themselves from a specific group of people who tried to kill them is what they did, and that's addressed in the scroll.

[Jackums]

What I took away from Trespasser with regard to Gods & faith was this:

 

The Back City which is visible in the fade is the shattered remnants of the Elven Empire & that the Golden City, the Seat of The Maker, was nothing more than a myth. Cory spoke the truth when he said that there was nothing there, that it wasn't golden, because Solas's spell had already destroyed the place, so I think, although it hasn't been (& probably won't be) confirmed, Trespasser confirms there never was a Maker.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

The existence of the Maker is not dependent upon the Chantry's story being true. Even if the Black City was already black, and no divine being sat there, and it was some ancient elven city from pre-veil times, the existence of a/the Maker still remains entirely possible. Said Maker simply would not be as the Chantry described them, or in line with the Chantry's story. That doesn't preclude its existence, though.
 

[Ashagar]

There was an old Tevinter cult that worshipped the Maker before the Old Gods became the state religion.

 

Indeed more pointedly, before old god worship the Maker was apparently the only diety the northern Tevinter tribes followed, they pointedly brought his worship into Thadas when they came out of the north to Thadas. Even after they started worshiping the old gods the Tevinter Imperium still celbrated a festival in his honor and belived he created the world. I am curious though when the idea of the golden city being the seat of the maker got into the Tevinter's heads though. Prehaps the Forbidden ones o the Old Gods put the idea in the Tevinter's heads.

[X Equestris]

Defending themselves from a specific group of people who tried to kill them is what they did, and that's addressed in the scroll.

And yet when presented with the evidence, the Dalish clan from the Exalted Plains takes responsibility and offers restitution. Clearly they felt a wrong had been committed on their part.

[LobselVith8]

And yet when presented with the evidence, the Dalish clan from the Exalted Plains takes responsibility and offers restitution. Clearly they felt a wrong had been committed on their part.

Because Hawen's clan concedes both sides were wrong (which is the entire point), and they want to make a peace offering to the people of Red Crossing.

[X Equestris]

Because Hawen's clan concedes both sides were wrong (which is the entire point), and they want to make a peace offering to the people of Red Crossing.

Thank you for proving my point. The elves aren't blameless in this affair, especially since they followed up the Red Crossing incident with an offensive deep into Orlais.

[LobselVith8]

Thank you for proving my point. The elves aren't blameless in this affair, especially since they followed up the Red Crossing incident with an offensive deep into Orlais.

I never said the elves were blameless. I'm also not going to condemn the Dales for defending themselves when Orlais declared war on the kingdom and their armies marched into elven territory.

[Ashagar]

Thank you for proving my point. The elves aren't blameless in this affair, especially since they followed up the Red Crossing incident with an offensive deep into Orlais.

 

That is true, by the time the chantry declared holy war on the dales the elves had already overrun and sacked much of Orlais including the capital.

[LobselVith8]

That is true, by the time the chantry declared holy war on the dales the elves had already overrun and sacked much of Orlais including the capital.

Elven troops were in Orlais during a war that Orlais declared against the Dales. Bloodshed happened on both sides; we have the Chantry honoring a Rivaini templar who loved to massacre elves: "Ser Mhemet, a Rivaini templar, fought in the Exalted March on the Dales for one reason: his love of killing elves, which pushed him to so many victories, the Chantry elevated him to Anointed after his death. To this day, Halamshiral elves consider his name a curse."

And we did have templars trespassing into the Dales prior to the war.

The issues go back a long way; Drakon's plans to invade and conquer the Free Marches were prevented because of the issues he faced with the Dales.

[X Equestris]

I never said the elves were blameless. I'm also not going to condemn the Dales for defending themselves when Orlais declared war on the kingdom and their armies marched into elven territory.

Orlais declared war on them because they'd destroyed a border village. Is there any other logical response to such a thing?

[Illegitimus]

Hurts? I'd say it destroys the Dalish faith. Seeing as everything they believe is made up.

 

According to Fen'Harel.  I'm sure they'll be very impressed.  

[LobselVith8]

Orlais declared war on them because they'd destroyed a border village. Is there any other logical response to such a thing?

You mean they killed a specific group of people who attacked them.

[Ashagar]

Who admitedly attacked them after they killed a member of the villlage, it still doesn't change the fact the entire village was destroyed which would be concidered a act of agressiion if not flat out acto of wars. Even excluding the relgious tenisons wars have been started over far less in RL history.

[LobselVith8]

Who admitedly attacked them after they killed a member of the villlage, it still doesn't change the fact the entire village was destroyed which would be concidered a act of agressiion if not flat out acto of wars. Even excluding the relgious tenisons wars have been started over far less in RL history.

The scroll specifically notes only the humans who attacked them were killed, not the entire town.

[ElementalFury106]

To those saying the Dalish faith has completely been destroyed, that's not completely accurate and true.

 

The Elven Gods did, in fact, exist. If anything, Solas' confirmation of this is more than Chantry/Andrastism has on whether or not the Maker exists.

 

Now, if we're discussing whether or not they were actually Gods is a different story. But fact is, they exist, so the Dalish were not wrong in their acknowledgement of them.

 

Dalish also believe that all Elves used to be immortal, and Solas confirmed that is indeed correct. Another aspect of Dalish faith that has not been wrong.

 

Dalish believe that all Elves once had the gift of magic. While we don't have a confirmation on whether that's true, we do know that all Elves had a natural connection to the Fade as it was once part of the world of Thedas and not just a dream world. This is what their legends probably imply. So while the Dalish were inaccurate here, they were not completely incorrect.

 

EDIT: It's come to my attention that we do in fact have a confirmation on this point ^ so yet ANOTHER thing the Dalish were right about.

 

So from an objective standpoint, the Dalish faith has not been completely destroyed. Some of their legends were accurate, and some were proved to be inaccurate. 

[Daerog]

The Chant of Light did not say that the Maker made the Veil, it just says he created the Fade and then the material world. The Chantry said that the Maker made the Veil because that was just the conclusion they jumped to. It disproves an assumption, not the actual faith.

 

Really, you don't have to bend anything and it still fits. The only ones wrong are the ones stating assumptions as fact. The Chantry says that the Chant of Light is the song of Andraste, who was inspired by the Maker or something, but the only place it talks about the Veil is when it talks about spirits becoming demons, which isn't wrong in the context where it says that. The creation verses do not mention a Veil.

 

The only thing that I can see outright contradicting the Chant is if the Old Gods were always material beings, rather than being of the "firstborn" as is said in the Chant. Still, it is a song and the qualities that make a song shouldn't be ignored when criticizing the Chant... to say a song is wrong because it isn't entirely accurate is like saying a history text book is a terrible story for not following acceptable conventions for storytelling...

 

 

 

 

(Also, I saw another post about Catholic Church still being around even after planes were invented or some nonsense. Planets and ideas of a system outside the Earth has been around since ancient times, the Catholic Church never taught that God lived literally/physically in the clouds. Why I have seen multiple posts on the BSN saying such, I don't know.)

[BraveVesperia]

Like many real world religions, I imagine they'll adapt their doctrines as new truths emerge so that it fits better. This should be easily done with Leliana, since she's already adapting many of the Chantry teachings/rules, but Cass and Viv could do it too.

[Kantr]

To those saying the Dalish faith has completely been destroyed, that's not completely accurate and true.

 

The Elven Gods did, in fact, exist. If anything, Solas' confirmation of this is more than Chantry/Andrastism has on whether or not the Maker exists.

 

Now, if we're discussing whether or not they were actually Gods is a different story. But fact is, they exist, so the Dalish were not wrong in their acknowledgement of them.

 

Dalish also believe that all Elves used to be immortal, and Solas confirmed that is indeed correct. Another aspect of Dalish faith that has not been wrong.

 

Dalish believe that all Elves once had the gift of magic. While we don't have a confirmation on whether that's true, we do know that all Elves had a natural connection to the Fade as it was once part of the world of Thedas and not just a dream world. This is what their legends probably imply. So while the Dalish were inaccurate here, they were not completely incorrect.

 

So from an objective standpoint, the Dalish faith has not been completely destroyed. Some of their legends were accurate, and some were proved to be inaccurate. 

True, but they weren't innocent creatures better than Humans though. Arlathan was the same as the Tevinter Imperium,

[LobselVith8]

True, but they weren't innocent creatures better than Humans though. Arlathan was the same as the Tevinter Imperium,

No one believed they were infallible. Merrill even mentions that Clan Sabrae considered the possibility that the ancient elves may have summoned Audacity during the battle at Sundermount.

[leaguer of one]

I don't think a unit of Emerald Knights trying to capture or kill a deserter, accidentally killing one woman who ran towards them, and then defending themselves from a group of humans who tried to kill them (and who were able to kill the human woman's elven lover) warranted a national incursion.

You're crazy if you think that.

1. No one on the elven side was trying to sue for peace. Not one and there is proof from that in JoH.

2.The emerald knights were zealots.

3. This is a woman running in the dark ageists trained fighting elves who as a race see can see in the dark via tapetum lucidum. Using the excuse of them panicking and think some one in a far distance is attacking them with a knife is as dumb as cops using it after the gun someone down 10 feet away. It called a warning shot. They need to us it.

 

Sorry, not no matter what you say the elves are more at fault for the fall of the dales. They abandoned, alienated, and antagonized their closest allie.

 

I'm not say humans or the chantry was not at fault but the elves had all the power to try to end things peacefully and only went to make things worse.

[Cobra's_back]

New writer, Patrick can easily change that.

 

Why would he? I doubt he would considering he has Dorian say he believes in the maker just not the Chantry. Chantry doesn't equal maker.