135 réponses à ce sujet

[azarhal]

I hope Andraste is confirmed blood mage in DA4. The Chantry religion needs to be punched in the balls next.

 

With Lyrium being Titan's blood, all mages are blood mages, they just don't know it...

[X Equestris]

The templars were sent there because the elves wouldn't convert. There's a difference between trying to capture or kill a defector you think will compromise state secrets, and sending armed and armored soldiers because people refuse to convert to your religion.

And your proof that they were there for that purpose, and not to protect missionaries, is where, exactly?

[LobselVith8]

And your proof that they were there for that purpose, and not to protect missionaries, is where, exactly?

There are multiple references to templars trespassing into the sovereign territory of the Dales in Inquisition; it's even referenced in Origins. However, it's not cited that the templars only entered the Dales to protect the missionaries.

It is stated, however, that the Chantry took umbrage with the elves refusing to convert to the Andrastian faith.

[leaguer of one]

One woman among the Emerald Knights attacked the human woman who was running towards them; the Emerald Knight wasn't psychic, she didn't know the woman's intentions. As for the Emerald Knights, they were the army of the Dales, tasked with protecting the independent kingdom from incursion. Templars were crossing into the Dales at the time, and at least one elven woman was murdered by Andrastian humans prior to Red Crossing.

Also, Orlais was created by Drakon conquering his neighbors to establish an empire under the worship of the Maker, and his issues with the Dales prevented his intended conquest of the Free Marches; you're conflating the alliance between Shartan and Andraste with the Dales and Orlais.

Dude, stop you don't need to be psychic to not kill someone. She had a bow and arrow and was in no distress, that mean she had time to think and in no danger to warrant a kill shot. She could do a warning shot or shot the woman in the leg. Any thing but kill the woman It's clear she made the shot intending to kill which is the problem. That mean there was no intent of any from of peace in her mind. Don't be an apoligist

 

And don't start with the human. They have multiple groups doing their own thing. Most of their actions is not planned out by the chantry or government of their people. Even then, if the human were allowed some form of ambassador or place of middle ground to discuss these issue the elves had most these issues would be worked out instead of piling up. The fact the xenophobic elve would no allow this because they were trying to gain back their illusion of immortality.

 

And don't start with Drakon invasions,this was a time when everything was out of order and full of Chaos, this was needed and the last thing there was is a focus on the elves.

[leaguer of one]

Um, no. The history revealed so far in Inquisition paints it as fault on both sides, with a giant land-grab being the main motivation on the side of the humans. The territory connected Orlais and Ferelden, and Orlais wanted Ferelden. The elves stubborness and unwillingness to help during the 2nd Blight made the taking of the Dales that much easier. 

It more fault to the elve due to doing nothing to try to relieve any tensions of war. WW1 is an issues of all side being at fault and even then their were people on all side in governing seats suing for peace. The Elves had none of it. Not one person.

[leaguer of one]

The templars entered the Dales illegally a myriad of times.

The templars are not a group that is a part of a sovereign state. They are part of an different group of humans.

[LobselVith8]

Dude, stop you don't need to be psychic to not kill someone. She had a bow and arrow and was in no distress, that mean she had time to think and in no danger to warrant a kill shot. She could do a warning shot or shot the woman in the leg. Any thing but kill the woman It's clear she made the shot intending to kill which is the problem. That mean there was no intent of any from of peace in her mind. Don't be an apoligist

You clearly assume she was psychic to think she should know that there was no danger when they assumed the defector was going to give away state secrets.

And don't start with the human. They have multiple groups doing their own thing. Most of their actions is not planned out by the chantry or government of their people. Even then, if the human were allowed some form of ambassador or place of middle ground to discuss these issue the elves had most these issues would be worked out instead of piling up. The fact the xenophobic elve would no allow this because they were trying to gain back their illusion of immortality.

Their neighbor was Orlais, a nation created through the conquest of their neighbors because their newfound leader wanted his subjects to follow his particular Cult of the Maker. The refusal of the elves to capitulate to Drakon's imperialist ambitions and convert to his Cult of the Maker turned national religion isn't something I'll condemn them for.

And don't start with Drakon invasions,this was a time when everything was out of order and full of Chaos, this was needed and the last thing there was is a focus on the elves.

No, it wasn't needed; he did it to put people under the worship of the Maker. The history of the Chantry reads as much: "There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will."

[X Equestris]

There are multiple references to templars trespassing into the sovereign territory of the Dales in Inquisition; it's even referenced in Origins. However, it's not cited that the templars only entered the Dales to protect the missionaries.
It is stated, however, that the Chantry took umbrage with the elves refusing to convert to the Andrastian faith.

I'd like to see actual sources, instead of you just saying there are sources.

[LobselVith8]

It more fault to the elve due to doing nothing to try to relieve any tensions of war. WW1 is an issues of all side being at fault and even then their were people on all side in governing seats suing for peace. The Elves had none of it. Not one person.

If my neighbor conquered and forcibly converted people, I would be hesitant to trust my neighbor. Neither side is innocent in this, and that's the entire point of the scroll we find in the elven temple.

The templars are not a group that is a part of a sovereign state. They are part of an different group of humans.

The militant arm of the Chantry this has a symbolic relationship with Orlais, to the point where the Chantry supported the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden hundreds of years later.

[Lumix19]

I'd like to see actual sources, instead of you just saying there are sources.

Dalish history states that "the Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars."

http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_The_Dales

Of course both entries are pretty biased (sacrifices to elven gods? Obvious fearmongering) but such is the way of sources.

Edit: Now that I'm looking there here are a few codex entries on the topic

“Andraste's path was difficult, as was ours. But we did not falter, as she did not. And we will be rewarded, just as she was. Elves were guilty of the greatest sin, of turning from the Maker. But we will show them mercy, for that is what Andraste teaches...when her chant is spoken from all countries of the world, the Maker will return. We are one day closer to his coming. Even Maferath the Betrayer had a part to play. Who are we to say elves do not?” ―From a sermon given by Sister Amity, at the conclusion of the Exalted March of the Dales

http://dragonage.wik...d_Exalted_March

Triumph of the Light

"Remember the triumph over the profane.

Sister Amity led the march to the river Tenasir, where stood shrines to the elven gods. These she struck down; standing upon the banks, she sang the Chant of Light. Andraste's Word had come to the Dales, and delivered them from wickedness."

And more Dalish history:

"It was free. For over three centuries. But the humans and their new Andrastian Chantry would not let us be. They pushed against our borders. They sent missionaries to spread the word of their prophet. They sought ways to subjugate the People once more. When we refused, we angered them."

http://dragonage.wik..._A_Promise_Lost

[X Equestris]

Dalish history states that "the Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars." http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_The_Dales
Of course both entries are pretty biased (sacrifices to elven gods? Obvious fearmongering) but such is the way of sources.
Edit: Now that I'm looking there here are a few codex entries on the topic
“Andraste's path was difficult, as was ours. But we did not falter, as she did not. And we will be rewarded, just as she was. Elves were guilty of the greatest sin, of turning from the Maker. But we will show them mercy, for that is what Andraste teaches...when her chant is spoken from all countries of the world, the Maker will return. We are one day closer to his coming. Even Maferath the Betrayer had a part to play. Who are we to say elves do not?” ―From a sermon given by Sister Amity, at the conclusion of the Exalted March of the Daleshttp://dragonage.wik...d_Exalted_March
Triumph of the Light
"Remember the triumph over the profane.
Sister Amity led the march to the river Tenasir, where stood shrines to the elven gods. These she struck down; standing upon the banks, she sang the Chant of Light. Andraste's Word had come to the Dales, and delivered them from wickedness."
And more Dalish history:
"It was free. For over three centuries. But the humans and their new Andrastian Chantry would not let us be. They pushed against our borders. They sent missionaries to spread the word of their prophet. They sought ways to subjugate the People once more. When we refused, we angered them." http://dragonage.wik..._A_Promise_Lost

I don't see anything concrete here from before the start of the war. The first two are from during the Exalted March itself. The last only makes a reference to missionaries, and considering how Dalish leaning it is, I'd be surprised if it left out a mention of Templars.

[LobselVith8]

The thought i was leading towards was this. If there is a maker, Why did the acient Elvhen not worship him? with all thier knowledge and power surely they would have insight into this. I find it very curious that there is no mention of who they worshiped? because we now know they werent really gods just very powerful mages. So surely they believed in some higher power? and what/who was it?

It's probably a human religion. They may have brought it with them from the continent they came from - likely the same place where the Qunari originated from if we take into account the ancient pyramids that depict horned giants.

[Lumix19]

I don't see anything concrete here from before the start of the war. The first two are from during the Exalted March itself. The last only makes a reference to missionaries, and considering how Dalish leaning it is, I'd be surprised if it left out a mention of Templars.

True. But there is absolutely a pro-Andrastian, anti-Creator vibe. Considering an Exalted March was declared that shouldn't be surprising but the fact that the Elves were said to have committed the "greatest sin" and that the Andrastians would be rewarded as Andraste was has some pretty strong implications.
Of course all this is biased on both sides but the records of the Chantry itself is telling, they wanted the "profane" elves to throw away their gods and convert to the Maker. The light triumphed over the "dark heart" of Halamshiral.

[leaguer of one]

You clearly assume she was psychic to think she should know that there was no danger when they assumed the defector was going to give away state secrets.


Their neighbor was Orlais, a nation created through the conquest of their neighbors because their newfound leader wanted his subjects to follow his particular Cult of the Maker. The refusal of the elves to capitulate to Drakon's imperialist ambitions and convert to his Cult of the Maker turned national religion isn't something I'll condemn them for.


No, it wasn't needed; he did it to put people under the worship of the Maker. The history of the Chantry reads as much: "There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will."

1. It not about danger. It the same issue with a trigger happy cop shooting some at a time of clearly no danger because they have no self control. She is at a distance. She is in no danger. She could of easily taken the woman down with out killing her. The "did not know was a danger " is not an excuse. The elf has a bow an arrow and was at a distance. It takes no psychic to know how to deal with the situation.

 

2.Drakon is the closest allie to the elves to the point that his best friend is an elf and leader of the inquisition. Sorry, but any issue of him invading the elves is paranoia.

 

And yes it was needed, this is the time after the blight where the world was a mess. Abominations were about with blood mage cults with people falsely exciuting mages... it was needed.

[leaguer of one]

If my neighbor conquered and forcibly converted people, I would be hesitant to trust my neighbor. Neither side is innocent in this, and that's the entire point of the scroll we find in the elven temple.


The militant arm of the Chantry this has a symbolic relationship with Orlais, to the point where the Chantry supported the Orlesian occupation of Ferelden hundreds of years later.

1.In contrast to have choatic states near your home?

 

 

2.Please, none of that means one controls the other. Try again.

[leaguer of one]

Dalish history states that "the Chantry first sent missionaries into the Dales, and then, when those were thrown out, templars."

http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_The_Dales

Of course both entries are pretty biased (sacrifices to elven gods? Obvious fearmongering) but such is the way of sources.

Edit: Now that I'm looking there here are a few codex entries on the topic

“Andraste's path was difficult, as was ours. But we did not falter, as she did not. And we will be rewarded, just as she was. Elves were guilty of the greatest sin, of turning from the Maker. But we will show them mercy, for that is what Andraste teaches...when her chant is spoken from all countries of the world, the Maker will return. We are one day closer to his coming. Even Maferath the Betrayer had a part to play. Who are we to say elves do not?” ―From a sermon given by Sister Amity, at the conclusion of the Exalted March of the Dales

http://dragonage.wik...d_Exalted_March

Triumph of the Light

"Remember the triumph over the profane.

Sister Amity led the march to the river Tenasir, where stood shrines to the elven gods. These she struck down; standing upon the banks, she sang the Chant of Light. Andraste's Word had come to the Dales, and delivered them from wickedness."

And more Dalish history:

"It was free. For over three centuries. But the humans and their new Andrastian Chantry would not let us be. They pushed against our borders. They sent missionaries to spread the word of their prophet. They sought ways to subjugate the People once more. When we refused, we angered them."

http://dragonage.wik..._A_Promise_Lost

That the exalted march. That not proof the chantry did that before that.

[fizzypop]

I used to think the Maker was a demon, but I'm thinking it might actually be Solas.
 

 

For one... None of them were gods.

For another.... all the gods were slavers.

Gods are created, they are not born. So they WERE Gods. I mean think about it if a being of immense power and capabilities came to earth we'd all be like "damn that must be God" because they could do things that we couldn't. That same being is probably a loser on his home planet. It is a very popular theory among even us. I mean Jesus was just a man and yet he is God to billions of Christians everywhere.

[Lumix19]

That the exalted march. That not proof the chantry did that before that.

If the actual reasoning for invading was justified why provide a presecutory religious excuse after?

[DuskWanderer]

The only story it changes is that the Maker did not create the Veil. Neither Solas nor any other elf created the world, nor did they create the Fade. Solas admits the worlds were together. 

 

Further, what evidence is there that Solas had anything to do with the Black City. 

 

 

[leaguer of one]

If the actual reasoning for invading was justified why provide a presecutory religious excuse after?

And the fact the only reason they went to war was because the Elves nearly took Val Royeaux has no merit?

[Lumix19]

And the fact the only reason they went to war was because the Elves nearly took Val Royeaux has no merit?

Supposedly they nearly took Val Royeaux. But then why not mention that? Why add all this random religious stuff? Why declare an Exalted March at all? Surely you don't declare an Exalted March whenever Orlais gets in trouble?

Note the fate of the Silver Knight, so repentant for his role in the end of the elves that he disappeared, never to be seen again.

[leaguer of one]

Supposedly they nearly took Val Royeaux. But then why not mention that? Why add all this random religious stuff? Why declare an Exalted March at all? Surely you don't declare an Exalted March whenever Orlais gets in trouble?

Note the fate of the Silver Knight, so repentant for his role in the end of the elves that he disappeared, never to be seen again.

1. It's not a supposedly, it fact that they nearly took Val Royeaux. It's mentioned by the chantry. And Why declare an exalted March? Dude, Val Royeaux is the very heart of the chantry governance. Of course they would.

 

2. Also, all the emerald knights refused to surrender.

[Heimdall]

Supposedly they nearly took Val Royeaux. But then why not mention that? Why add all this random religious stuff? Why declare an Exalted March at all? Surely you don't declare an Exalted March whenever Orlais gets in trouble?
Note the fate of the Silver Knight, so repentant for his role in the end of the elves that he disappeared, never to be seen again.

Considering that Val Royeaux is the seat of the Chantry, when Orlais is in trouble the Chantry is in trouble, especially when the invaders are heathens.

It's clear that the Chantry and Orlais grew increasingly ideologically hostile to the elves and the elven religion after the Dales' inaction during the second Blight (As a result of the Dalish growing increasingly ideologically hostile to humans and human religion). However, there's no evidence of the Chantry attempting to convert elves by force prior to the Exalted March, or that Templars made incursions into the Dales aside from that one reference in a Dalish codex entry.

[Lumix19]

1. It's not a supposedly, it fact that they nearly took Val Royeaux. It's mentioned by the chantry. And Why declare an exalted March? Dude, Val Royeaux is the very heart of the chantry governance. Of course they would.

2. Also, all the emerald knights refused to surrender.

But the nature of Val Royeux's capture is disputed. Did the elves attack as retaliation for an invasion by Orlais? Or did they attack without provocation? And if so why?
The Dalish believe that Orlais/Chantry wanted them to convert and sent templars when they refused. I'm saying this is supported by a.) the religious tones of the conquest of the Dales implying that for their "sin" the elves deserved what they got, and b.) that an Exalted March was declared at all, obviously because of Orlais' connection with the Chantry. It seems to resonate with the Dalish narrative that Orlais and the Chantry wanted to extend the reach of the Chant, by the sword if necessary.
On the other hand the Chantry narrative seems to be that the Elves were heretics and attacked Red Crossing to sacrifice them to their Creators and then went on to attack Val Royeaux. For no reason.

[LobselVith8]

1. It not about danger. It the same issue with a trigger happy cop shooting some at a time of clearly no danger because they have no self control. She is at a distance. She is in no danger. She could of easily taken the woman down with out killing her. The "did not know was a danger " is not an excuse. The elf has a bow an arrow and was at a distance. It takes no psychic to know how to deal with the situation.

That's an asinine comparison, particularly when real people die by friendly fire in the real world under similar circumstances. A unit of elven soldiers in a covert operation to deal with a possible threat to national security, with an unknown target rushing towards them (in a world with mages and abominations, with assassins who can throw hidden knives - like rogue Hawke does with the kidnapper holding Feynriel) isn't going to magically know the person rushing towards them meant them no harm.

2.Drakon is the closest allie to the elves to the point that his best friend is an elf and leader of the inquisition. Sorry, but any issue of him invading the elves is paranoia.

Drakon having an Andrastian elf has a friend doesn't make him "the closest ally" to the elves who follow the elven pantheon in the Dales. That's like saying Celene would never kill thousands of elves in Halamshiral because she's Briala's lover.

And yes it was needed, this is the time after the blight where the world was a mess. Abominations were about with blood mage cults with people falsely exciuting mages... it was needed.

And yet, the Chantry's own history reads it was done to establish an empire under the worship of the Maker. "There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will."

Furthermore, the Second Blight happened after Drakon launched his Exalted Marches against his neighbors to bring the people under the worship of the Maker.