135 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

But the nature of Val Royeux's capture is disputed. Did the elves attack as retaliation for an invasion by Orlais? Or did they attack without provocation? And if so why?
The Dalish believe that Orlais/Chantry wanted them to convert and sent templars when they refused. I'm saying this is supported by a.) the religious tones of the conquest of the Dales implying that for their "sin" the elves deserved what they got, and b.) that an Exalted March was declared at all, obviously because of Orlais' connection with the Chantry. It seems to resonate with the Dalish narrative that Orlais and the Chantry wanted to extend the reach of the Chant, by the sword if necessary.
On the other hand the Chantry narrative seems to be that the Elves were heretics and attacked Red Crossing to sacrifice them to their Creators and then went on to attack Val Royeaux. For no reason.

We already know it's due to the incident  in Red crossing. The templers maybe part of the fuel but not what started the incident. The last straw was red crossing. The issue here is the elves labeling the humans as a group and laying blame on them in general when the human are just multiple groups with actions of some not being associated to all. The elves would say the humans attecked them first but which group? And group that attacked them after red crossing would just be an angry mob of peasants, not the militia of the chantry or orlias. And the elves of that time were xenophobic for needless reasons. If they just labeled those peasants attack as one from all the humans of course they would say the humans attacked first. Nothing shows the the sovergin state of orlias or the chantry attacked first but all history show the elves did nearly take Val Royeaux. It matters not that the stated the elves were, the elve still nearly took Val Royeaux. A march was going to be call for that reason alone.

[LobselVith8]

1.In contrast to have choatic states near your home?

Having his subjects convert to his brand of the Cult of the Maker. And you're forgetting about Drakon's plans to conquer the Free Marches.

2.Please, none of that means one controls the other. Try again.

There's no reason to ignore that there is a symbiotic relationship between the Chantry and Orlais. It's the reason Loghain and Maric contemplated dissolving the Chantry in Ferelden.

[leaguer of one]

That's an asinine comparison, particularly when real people die by friendly fire in the real world under similar circumstances. A unit of elven soldiers in a covert operation to deal with a possible threat to national security, with an unknown target rushing towards them (in a world with mages and abominations, with assassins who can throw hidden knives - like rogue Hawke does with the kidnapper holding Feynriel) isn't going to magically know the person rushing towards them meant them no harm.


Drakon having an Andrastian elf has a friend doesn't make him "the closest ally" to the elves who follow the elven pantheon in the Dales. That's like saying Celene would never kill thousands of elves in Halamshiral because she's Briala's lover.


And yet, the Chantry's own history reads it was done to establish an empire under the worship of the Maker. "There were many converts, including powerful people in the Imperium and in the city-states of what is now Orlais. Such was the power of the Maker's word that the young King Drakon undertook a series of Exalted Marches meant to unite the city-states and create an empire solely dedicated to the Maker's will."

Furthermore, the Second Blight happened after Drakon launched his Exalted Marches against his neighbors to bring the people under the worship of the Maker.

1. Learn what the conditions of friendly fire are before using that. it's cause by accidents of mis-fire or confusing someone as an enemy. That's not the case here. These people are going into a town full of peasants with little to no training. No kill shot is need on anyone. Try agein.

 

2.That elf was a voice amoung the dales government and also beleive in elven gods. Try agein.

 

3.And history still states the world was in choas then. the issue is still to apply order.

 

4.You're super wrong.      http://dragonage.wik...Timeline#Divine

 

The 2nd blight was in 1:5 divine. The march of the dales was in next age of Glory. Drakon was not even alive during the march of the dales. He died during the blight.

[leaguer of one]

Having his subjects convert to his brand of the Cult of the Maker. And you're forgetting about Drakon's plans to conquer the Free Marches.


There's no reason to ignore that there is a symbiotic relationship between the Chantry and Orlais. It's the reason Loghain and Maric contemplated dissolving the Chantry in Ferelden.

1. Yet he did not and they part of the religion now anyway.

 

2.Sorry but co dependents does not means one controls the other.

[LobselVith8]

That the exalted march. That not proof the chantry did that before that.

It doesn't read it happened during the Exalted March, it reads that templars were sent as a consequence of turning away the missionaries (since they wouldn't convert). There are coded entries in the Dales that make reference to templar incursion into the Dales; the codex entry about the Life Trees even reads that Briathos was an Emerald Knight who turned away missionaries and templars.

[leaguer of one]

But the nature of Val Royeux's capture is disputed. Did the elves attack as retaliation for an invasion by Orlais? Or did they attack without provocation? And if so why?
The Dalish believe that Orlais/Chantry wanted them to convert and sent templars when they refused. I'm saying this is supported by a.) the religious tones of the conquest of the Dales implying that for their "sin" the elves deserved what they got, and b.) that an Exalted March was declared at all, obviously because of Orlais' connection with the Chantry. It seems to resonate with the Dalish narrative that Orlais and the Chantry wanted to extend the reach of the Chant, by the sword if necessary.
On the other hand the Chantry narrative seems to be that the Elves were heretics and attacked Red Crossing to sacrifice them to their Creators and then went on to attack Val Royeaux. For no reason.

The templars do not matter. Their are no statment of them being an invasion force. heck, that's not even why the war started.  And conflict that start is from what happen in red crossing. Any thing before does not matter outside of fueling the conflict. And Val Royeux was not capture, it was nearly captured.

[leaguer of one]

It doesn't read it happened during the Exalted March, it reads that templars were sent as a consequence of turning away the missionaries (since they wouldn't convert). There are coded entries in the Dales that make reference to templar incursion into the Dales; the codex entry about the Life Trees even reads that Briathos was an Emerald Knight who turned away missionaries and templars.

Those are quotes from templers during the march. look it up.

[LobselVith8]

1. Learn what the conditions of friendly fire are before using that. it's cause by accidents of mis-fire or confusing someone as an enemy. That's not the case here. These people are going into a town full of peasants with little to no training. No kill shot is need on anyone. Try agein.

No one was psychic enough to know that the defector wasn't actually giving away state secrets. You'll have to excuse me if I refuse to pretend that the Emerald Knights were mustache twirling Saturday Morning Cartoons when the facts address otherwise.

2.That elf was a voice amoung the dales government and also beleive in elven gods. Try agein.

He was a follower of the Maker who wanted Drakon to bring people under his religion.

3.And history still states the world was in choas then. the issue is still to apply order.

It states he wanted to bring people under the worship of the Maker, as I've repeatedly cited from Chantry sources.

4.You're super wrong. http://dragonage.wik...Timeline#Divine

So you ignored my citations of historical entries by the Chantry to provide a truncated summary of an entire Age? You're disputing Chantry historians.

The 2nd blight was in 1:5 divine. The march of the dales was in next age of Glory. Drakon was not even alive during the march of the dales. He died during the blight.

You do realize Drakon's conquests of his neighbors (that formed Orlais) are referred to as "Exalted Marches"?

[leaguer of one]

No one was psychic enough to know that the defector wasn't actually giving away state secrets. You'll have to excuse me if I refuse to pretend that the Emerald Knights were mustache twirling Saturday Morning Cartoons when the facts address otherwise.


He was a follower of the Maker who wanted Drakon to bring people under his religion.


It states he wanted to bring people under the worship of the Maker, as I've repeatedly cited from Chantry sources.


So you ignored my citations of historical entries by the Chantry to provide a truncated summary of an entire Age? You're disputing Chantry historians.


You do realize Drakon's conquests of his neighbors (that formed Orlais) are referred to as "Exalted Marches"?

1. What? That has nothing to do with what happened nor is that a case for what was going on. They did not confuse the woman for the guy, they knew that was not him. The emerald knight was just trigger happy angry elves. 

 

2.He was the fallower of the maker and the creators and wanted the elves to co exist with the human and was ok with the spread of the chanty because he new first hand how much a mess the world was.

3. So what?That does no mean he was going to invade everyone to do that. If fact he did not in the end.

4.My link bring you to chantry lore. the lore in not wrong. You are.

6. No it's not. http://dragonage.wik...Exalted_Marches

[Roamingmachine]

I see the ADB still likes its inane arguments

 

Anyway, to get back on topic BECAUSE THIS IS NOT A GODSDAMN ELVEN HISTORY THREAD:

 

You can prove or disporove a belief system but it will not change faith. It's just not how faith works. You can go "Haha, you're wrong!" all you want at someones religion and throw all the facts you want at it but you can't hurt actual faith (but you will prove that you are an a**hole). That's why neither the Andrastians nor the Dalish will be in any way affected by anything in Inquisition if they have any faith to begin with.

And no, i can't explain the inner workings of faith any more than i could explain the color blue. It's just...faith.

[QueenCrow]

I treat anything that comes out of Solas’ mouth as dubious.  The Dalish were wrong about some things.  It’s a fact.  But I believe they were right about some things too.  Turns out Fen’Harel really is a double-talking danger.  Turns out he really is the one who sealed the “gods” away (tricked them as the Dalish story goes), and I believe that part for the first time after Trespasser.

 

Solas said one thing that I know is truth, whether talking about characters in a video game or the real world and general human nature.  People meet confusion by trying to discern the truth and sometimes the truth gets fancied up with myth.  

 

I think that’s what the Dalish did.  They muddled up what really happened with myth and slight changes to the storytelling over time, perhaps to make the stories relevant to their current struggles.

 

And I think that’s what the Chantry has done too.  There is some truth in the Chantry in the scope of this game story – I’d bet the farm on that one.  After Trespasser…

Spoiler

Now that I know Solas/Fen’Harel intends to try and tear down the Veil, making the world awash with the Fade

…it’s odd to read Chant of Light verses that I think are about the world being washed over by the emerald (the Fade) waters.

 

Here lies the abyss, the well of all souls.
From these emerald waters doth life begin anew.
Come to me, child, and I shall embrace you.
In my arms lies Eternity.

(-Canticle of Andraste 14:11)

 

From the waters of the Fade you made the world. As the Fade had been fluid, so was the world fixed.

(-Threnodies 1:4)

 

For my part, I think the Dalish have some things right.  The Chantry has some things right also.  And I’m sure everyone else has a piece of the big puzzle too.  And I’m hoping the pieces fit in the end.

[llandwynwyn]

Very easy to paint the elf that killed the first human on Red Crossing as trigger happy or malicious, let's not forget she lost her sister to humans near their border amid rumors of abductions. Even though she personally wanted revenge, they didn't seek it.

 

No part was innocent in this, yet one profited from the war, stole the land and subjected innocent people while claiming divine right.

[Daerog]

Two jerks fight, one jerk wins. That doesn't make the loser less of a jerk.

 

It sucks what happened after the war, but before the war, the Dalish were not sympathetic (during their flight to the Dales, sure, but not after they arrived). Orlais and the other nations had to face the Blight, they suffered greatly and the Dalish did not, they were doing fine and prospering while their neighbors burned.

 

Was Orlais nice and courteous to the Dales? No, and neither were the Dalish.

 

The elves were seeking to capture the capital, and they were winning before they threatened the seat of the Chantry. Was there any peace talks at all? No, the elves were seeking to crush their enemy, but ended up being crushed instead because they didn't quit while they were ahead.

 

On Topic: Revelations may impact the Chantry, but it won't ruin it as it all fits the Chant of Light narrative still.

[Almostfaceman]

It more fault to the elve due to doing nothing to try to relieve any tensions of war. WW1 is an issues of all side being at fault and even then their were people on all side in governing seats suing for peace. The Elves had none of it. Not one person.

 

So what was the Elves reading on the fault meter? It was higher than the humans fault reading by... what? 3.2? 5/7ths of a gnats butt?

[Almostfaceman]

The templars do not matter. Their are no statment of them being an invasion force. heck, that's not even why the war started.  And conflict that start is from what happen in red crossing. Any thing before does not matter outside of fueling the conflict. And Val Royeux was not capture, it was nearly captured.

 

"fueling the conflict" literally matters as it "fueled the conflict". Like, say, the incident at the Alamo helped fuel Sam Houston's forces to victory over Santa Ana. 

[Gervaise]

I've just been playing through the bit after you come back from the Temple of Mythal and you go to talk to Sera.    She hits the nail on the head right there.    They can't both be true.   She objects that we're going on the word of Abelas about what happened.    She clearly hasn't heard about my meeting with Mythal.    Then I go and talk with her in Trespasser after one of our ventures through the eluvians and she seems quite okay now we have discovered it wasn't demons but big bad mages, when her point still applies, since if these were running around with no Veil between the Fade and the Material World until Solas put one there, then the Chantrty's creation story is screwed.   Spirits and elves happily mingling together, great wonders of magical construction sustained by the Fade but seemingly bridging the two worlds.   Apart from anything else, what was the Maker so disappointed about with regard to the spirits and the Fade?   In the Chant they are not doing anything constructive in the Fade, so he makes a material world and the creatures in it and hopes they will now get busy doing things, whilst the spirits in the Fade look on in envy from their side of the Veil. 

 

The reality is that the Chantry will do a cover up, so no one outside your inner Circle ever gets to hear what you learnt from Solas and if you publicise it, people will think you are crazy.     The Divine, being party to what you heard, clearly does take it seriously but as we know from Adamant, heaven forbid anyone else should discover the truth.    The nobility have a marvellous habit of sticking their heads in the sand in any case.    In MoA we had definite proof of the Qun enlisting large numbers of elves and others as their sleeper agents.   When Hawke tries warning people, they ignore them and then it would seem, despite what happens with the Arishok, ever our spy master didn't think to check out the credentials of elves and others joining up, particularly from Kirkwall.     So I reckon Solas will get his way and the people of the south will sleep walk their way to their potential destruction.

[Daerog]

The Chant never says the Maker made the Veil. That was an assumption of the Chantry and Andrastians, which doesn't hurt the religion at all (kind of hard to say, since the theology isn't really established or at least made known to us).

 

The mention of the Veil and demons comes later, after Creation, and was a passage explaining how demons are formed. If there were spirits that took on the purpose of serving the People, and Solas made it so they could not fulfill that purpose with the Veil, then ya, they became demons as they looked at mortals that lived without them. Still fits the narrative.

 

In no way do these revelations hurt the Chant of Light, however, it can mess with the minds of the commoners and nobility, so it may have to be introduced slowly, like through the Orlesian University first... or something...

 

The Maker was disappointed with the First Sin, which was mortals turning to others for wisdom and power (mentions Old Gods, but elf gods could be inferred), and the magisters entering the Golden City was the Second Sin. So, the Maker distanced himself during the First Sin.

 

I say "distanced" because the way the Maker is portrayed between Origins and Inquisition is a bit confusing, like he either stays away completely (Origins, no blessings, no interventions) or he at least has people do his will as agents or maybe Andraste connects with the material world to do the Maker's will (Inquisition, "I am the Maker's Chosen!" line at the end for Andrastian Inquisitors, Orlesian comments on civil war).

[RepHope]

I hope Andraste is confirmed blood mage in DA4. The Chantry religion needs to be punched in the balls next.

That theory that Andraste was a Dumat OGB would certainly put an interesting spin on her for sure. As would her being a mage.

[RepHope]

The Chant never says the Maker made the Veil. That was an assumption of the Chantry and Andrastians, which doesn't hurt the religion at all (kind of hard to say, since the theology isn't really established or at least made known to us).

 

The mention of the Veil and demons comes later, after Creation, and was a passage explaining how demons are formed. If there were spirits that took on the purpose of serving the People, and Solas made it so they could not fulfill that purpose with the Veil, then ya, they became demons as they looked at mortals that lived without them. Still fits the narrative.

 

In no way do these revelations hurt the Chant of Light, however, it can mess with the minds of the commoners and nobility, so it may have to be introduced slowly, like through the Orlesian University first... or something...

 

The Maker was disappointed with the First Sin, which was mortals turning to others for wisdom and power (mentions Old Gods, but elf gods could be inferred), and the magisters entering the Golden City was the Second Sin. So, the Maker distanced himself during the First Sin.

 

I say "distanced" because the way the Maker is portrayed between Origins and Inquisition is a bit confusing, like he either stays away completely (Origins, no blessings, no interventions) or he at least has people do his will as agents or maybe Andraste connects with the material world to do the Maker's will (Inquisition, "I am the Maker's Chosen!" line at the end for Andrastian Inquisitors, Orlesian comments on civil war).

He kind of got retconned from a purely deist God to a God with a more theist bent. Of course if he exists he's a deist for sure considering he never seems to help.

[Daerog]

He kind of got retconned from a purely deist God to a God with a more theist bent. Of course if he exists he's a deist for sure considering he never seems to help.

 

Ya, I'm starting to think that the writers want some of that divine guidance to play a role in the faith or something. They could have kept the Deistic approach from Origins and just said that Andraste (and maybe other Anointed?) intervenes on behalf of mortals but still obeys the Maker's will. So, "Andraste's Herald" makes sense if it is more about Andraste aiding in place of the Maker, but when the Inquisitor says "I am the Maker's Chosen" or the Orlesians talk about praying to the Maker for help in the civil war, I get confused. What do these Andrastians believe?

 

Leliana did say she disagreed with the "abandoned" approach, because she believes that the Maker helps in more subtle ways, maybe that idea has gained traction in the clergy. I don't know, the devs could probably just make a codex about Grand Clerics arguing about a possible development in the understanding of the Chant and current events (Inquisition) that could lead the Chantry into a more "theist bent" if that is what the devs want.

 

Sidenote: The Maker did not really get retconned, it was more Chantry teaching that got retconned... maybe... they could just say the Fereldan clergy is more traditional while the Orlesian clergy is leaning more to this new outlook that Leliana mentioned in Origins, and if they want this new version of the Chantry, then they can just say that this understanding, following the Herald of Andraste incident, is the position of the Chantry on the matter now.

[leaguer of one]

Very easy to paint the elf that killed the first human on Red Crossing as trigger happy or malicious, let's not forget she lost her sister to humans near their border amid rumors of abductions. Even though she personally wanted revenge, they didn't seek it.

 

No part was innocent in this, yet one profited from the war, stole the land and subjected innocent people while claiming divine right.

I sorry but facts are fact that they could of taking the woman down with out killing her. It's true they were not gunning for a fight but they were needlessly ready for one and hi strung.

 

And I'm not saying one side is more innocent, just one side more at fault. The entire xenophobic and prideful nature the elves had messed everything up for them time and time agein.

[LadyJaneGrey]

The creators and writers will bend the Chantry/Maker/Andrastians/elven pantheon/Dalish tribes/old gods/etc to fit the needs of each story.

 

I sincerely hope they start keeping a more meticulous database because the published lore books at times have been flat-out wrong.  And if the people telling the stories can't get the basic information right, the audience isn't going to think "wow, what an interesting insight into the nature of religion, ontology, and identity!" but instead "dang - I guess Kirby or Weekes didn't get enough sleep the night before." 

[Daerog]

Supposedly, the writers have all, if not most, of the major plot and history already sorted out, and are just trickling it out to us to keep up the speculation and such.

 

A lot of stuff revealed in Inquisition highlights stuff found as far back as Origins.

 

It would be nice if they add in another faith/religion from across the sea, once they open up the world more, so that they can have two faiths that are just left as faith and not exposed. Having the mystery of the Creators or the Maker was nice, but now everything just fits into a nice narrative, everything seems to be true... less conflict, less drama, less mystery...

[NaclynE]

Maybe it's just me but the fact that Solas created the Viel, shouldnt that blow a huge hole in chantry/andrastian lore? Not even mentioning the fact about titans and elvhen and the earth. So did this basically come out and say yup there is no maker and the old gods were actually the banished elves posing as dragons trying to be released from there prisons?

 

Just some food for thought.

I'd love to hear what you guys think.

 

Did TRESPASSER F up something thing explained in the main story?

 

I hate when things like this happen. *rolls eyes*.

[Daerog]

No, Trespasser made clear some of the more vague stuff from the main story... like what Flemeth was ranting about when she mentioned how she was betrayed, Mythal was betrayed, the world was betrayed, and how there would be vengeance... and other things...

 

Trespasser, like Inquisition, made the history of the world a bit clearer... which they should be careful of, the mystery and speculation help keep the story interesting.