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[SteveGarbage]

Several months ago I had opened a thread asking "Why did the Divine need to die?" questioning why Justinia had to perish as part of the story. The general response had been Corypheus targeted her as a way to destabilize southern Thedas by killing her and blowing up a large contingent of the Chantry, Templars and mages. So I let it drop, even though I wasn't satisfied.

 

But after Trespasser, I want to reopen the conversation because some of the new content really confirmed that there was no legitimate reason for Divine Justinia to die.

 

The facts

1) The ritual to create the Breach appears to need some sort of sacrifice. Corypheus refers to Justinia as "the sacrifice."

2) Although Divine Justinia represent a the head of a powerful organization, but physically she has no special features or abilities that separate her from any other human. She is an average non-mage human female.

3) The Conclave was *supposed* to be a high security location, making it difficult for interlopers to get in. The chance for detection would be high.

4) Corypheus attempted the ritual with the goal of obtaining the Anchor, being able to enter the Fade physically and claim the empty throne at the heart of the Black City.

 

Considering these facts, here is my argument.

1) Corypheus could have used any person as a sacrifice. That makes entering the Conclave needlessly and unreasonably risky due to the high chance of detection.

Since we've established that Justinia is just an average woman, Corypheus could have chosen any Venatori, some random person scooped off the side of the road or a willing volunteer as the sacrifice. We know that this is true because Corypheus opens the Breach a second time and he does not need another Divine. (It also raised the question of why the second attempt to open the Breach didn't just give him a second Anchor and allow him to enter the Fade, although that is a separate argument). Therefore, it makes little sense that he, a giant, freaky darkspawn magister, would choose to march into one of the most high-security locations in the world. That would be like buying a handgun and wanting to test it out, but instead of going target shooting at your local gun range you instead decide to try to shoot it in the Oval Office of the White House. Choosing somewhere isolated would ensure the ritual is much less likely to get interrupted.

 

2) Corypheus wouldn't have needed to kill the Divine to destabilize southern Thedas, because he undertakes the process with the reasonable assumption that he would succeed.

If Corypheus succeeds, he gets the Anchor, he enters the Fade and he becomes a god. There would be no legitimate reason to have to worry about mortal opposition in the physical world. He would be in the Fade and he would possess new godlike powers. The head of the Chantry, Templars and mages you could assume we be insignificant threats if he becomes a god. Consider it like the Noah flood story from the Bible -- God is going to destroy civilization with a giant flood, so this would be akin to God coming down to Earth and stabbing 100 people in the gut with a knife. It would be pointless. You have power to completely dominate all of those people so there is no reason to make the extra effort to kill some of those people ahead of time. It would raise serious questions if Corypheus went into the ritual thinking, "Well, this has a 99 percent chance of failure, so I better do it at the Conclave just in case it fails explosively."

 

3) Corypheus didn't know that the ritual would create a massive explosion.

This piece is the new info that was revealed in Trespasser. Solas states that he gave his orb to Corypheus so the magister could unlock it. Solas expected the resulting explosion would kill Corypheus and he would be able to obtain his orb. You would assume that if Corypheus knew the ritual would end in a giant explosion that would kill him, he would not seek to do it. Therefore, he wouldn't plan ahead to do it in such a place that would make a major impact. (Real world parallel: If you had a nuclear bomb and you knew that setting it off in your hand would definitely kill you, you wouldn't set it off).
Making the assumption that maybe he DID know the ritual would create a massive explosion (and then Solas was truly the one who was wrong in underestimating him) and continued because he knew he had effective immortality, it still doesn't make sense as a motive to complete the ritual at the Conclave because of No. 2. If he succeeds, he enters the Fade and becomes a god, again making the argument that there is no need to devastate the Chantry, Templars and mages. Instead, he could more safely achieve his goal in the middle of the wilderness, where some bumbling Inquisitor-to-be doesn't stumble in and wreck the whole ritual.

 

In conclusion:
Having the Divine die is a nice plot device to make the Inquisition's role as a stabilization group more impactful. It also allows people think the Inquisitor is divinely touched when he/she exits the Fade and allows the Inquisition to influence the next Divine which makes players feel special by picking their favorite of three ladies.

 

But I'm not convinced there is any reason why Corypheus would NEED to specifically kill Divine Justinia to advance his plot.

 

Sorry for the long post. Would appreciate any thoughts/discussion.

[Ashagar]

The thing is belief is power espically in a world like thadas, a person like the divine is a focus of the bellef of millions of Andrestians as the leader and symbol of the faith, that makes her more than simple. Also the reason he was able to reopen the breach was because the veil was extremely thin both from the breach being created in the first place and because of all the death in the area both at the conclave and later at haven greatly weakened the veil in the area which made it much easier to reopen it than it was to create it in the first place.

[SurelyForth]

There is no reason why Corypheus needed to kill the Divine, but since when is a megalomaniac aspiring to godhood limited by such? The Divine is, arguably, the most revered person in Southern Thedas. More than anyone else, her death matters. It matters because it destroys the peace talks, it matters because it throws the Chantry into chaos (the Chantry being one of the few unifying forces across Southern Thedas, which makes the Imperium's rise to power that much easier), and it matters because it underlines the absence of the Maker. Corypheus' whole deal is about being failed by his gods and his need for a measure of certainty- what better way for him to begin his ascension to godhood then by defiling the best representation of the Maker/His bride on Thedas? While it makes little sense from a logistical perspective, it's thematically very sound. 

[SteveGarbage]

The thing is belief is power espically in a world like thadas, a person like the divine is a focus of the bellef of millions of Andrestians as the leader and symbol of the faith, that makes her more than simple. Also the reason he was able to reopen the breach was because the veil was extremely thin both from the breach being created in the first place and because of all the death in the area both at the conclave and later at haven greatly weakened the veil in the area which made it much easier to reopen it than it was to create it in the first place.

 

It's irrelevant whether a lot of or all people believe in the Divine. Their belief gives her political power, yes, but it doesn't give her any ACTUAL power that would be useful in stopping a godlike Corypheus. An ant queen can rule an entire hive of ants, but my boot is still capable of crushing her entire world at my whim. The ants have no true power to stop me from destroying them. Divine Justinia is the queen ant, a godlike Corypheus is the boot.

 

I'm not aware of any canon lore that supports your theory about the weakened Veil making it easier to create a second Breach.

 

Even still then, it raises more questions. We already known Corypheus couldn't steal the Inquisitor's mark (from Haven) so he vows to start again. So either the second Breach was supposed to give him the mark and for some reason didn't (with no explanation as to why) or he did just break open the sky again to draw out the Inquisitor, which doesn't make any sense because he can't steal the mark (as had already been established). If he just breached the sky the second time to kill the Inquisitor as a rival, that would be reasonable, I suppose, but the Inquisition COULDN'T find him after the Arbor Wilds, so why didn't he just retreat to some reclusive location and make an attempt to succeed in his plan the second time?

[Excella Gionne]

Lavellan, Trevelyan, Cadash, and Adaar, are all at the conclave, and only one lives depending on who heard the Divine's call for help. Corypheus, in my opinion had to kill Justinia to cripple the most dominant faith and belief in Thedas. He wants to prove them wrong that their Maker is false. He wants them to doubt their faith. Leliana explains it quite well when you first talk to her and she blames the Maker for not saving his most important subjects. Her faith is shaken and if lead to the hardened path, she becomes less Andrastian and believes in the Maker less. 

 

If Corypheus skipped all of this, he would be met with heavy resistance and would probably need to kill everyone in Thedas. If he killed everyone, who is there to rule? You can't be a god if you are not worshiped. Justinia is a beacon of faith, and with her death, it would cause chaos, and Corypheus needed to exploit that, especially during the peace talks between both mages and templars.

[draken-heart]

The reason Justinia had to die was so that there could be an actual plot to the game. A world that the bad guy already won because no one knew what the world happened is not a game.

[SteveGarbage]

There is no reason why Corypheus needed to kill the Divine, but since when is a megalomaniac aspiring to godhood limited by such? The Divine is, arguably, the most revered person in Southern Thedas. More than anyone else, her death matters. It matters because it destroys the peace talks, it matters because it throws the Chantry into chaos (the Chantry being one of the few unifying forces across Southern Thedas, which makes the Imperium's rise to power that much easier), and it matters because it underlines the absence of the Maker. Corypheus' whole deal is about being failed by his gods and his need for a measure of certainty- what better way for him to begin his ascension to godhood then by defiling the best representation of the Maker/His bride on Thedas? While it makes little sense from a logistical perspective, it's thematically very sound. 

 

But why risk detection and failure, to make the statement? You can make the same statement without killing Justinia as Step 1 of Evil Plan to Become All-Powerful Black City Magister God.

If you try to kill Justinia in the middle of the Conclave, yes, you might succeed and really stick it to the Chantry and its faithful. But there is a high chance that you will also be detected and something will go wrong. (As is exactly what happens in the game when the Herald bumbles into the room and asks "What's going on here?")

 

On the other hand, if you get godhood FIRST, then you can come back and make a show of your power but crushing the Chantry. You've already got the power. You achieve the same goal without the risk.

 

You rob a bank with gun in hand. You don't rob it by trying to get them to give you the money while the gun is sitting in your car.

[SteveGarbage]

Lavellan, Trevelyan, Cadash, and Adaar, are all at the conclave, and only one lives depending on who heard the Divine's call for help. Corypheus, in my opinion had to kill Justinia to cripple the most dominant faith and belief in Thedas. He wants to prove them wrong that their Maker is false. He wants them to doubt their faith. Leliana explains it quite well when you first talk to her and she blames the Maker for not saving his most important subjects. Her faith is shaken and if lead to the hardened path, she becomes less Andrastian and believes in the Maker less. 

 

If Corypheus skipped all of this, he would be met with heavy resistance and would probably need to kill everyone in Thedas. If he killed everyone, who is there to rule? You can't be a god if you are not worshiped. Justinia is a beacon of faith, and with her death, it would cause chaos, and Corypheus needed to exploit that, especially during the peace talks between both mages and templars.

 

I offer the same argument that I just posted above to SurelyForth. If you need to crush the Chantry, you can do it after you get your power. There's no reasonable explanation for why you have to try to do it first.

 

It's much safer to tell off your boss AFTER you've accepted the new job, instead of doing it after an interview that you thought went really well, but no guarantee you've landed the gig.

[NoForgiveness]

1) If he had gone and done his thing then come back all "hey, I'm a god. Worship my ass!" Then Divine Justinia is the one person that would have the power to be like "nope. This dude is a wannabe noobey pos!" It's a preemptive strike of sorts. He has to shake their faith in the Maker then swoop it up for himself.

2) Plan B. His backup was to crush Thedas under his heel then start fresh with a world that recognizes him as the god. 4 step plan. Divine. Empress. Demon army and then steam roll.

[Sifr]

While I think the idea of using Justinia as a sacrifice was to throw the entire Chantry into disarray and prove their Maker false, another secondary reason could be that Corypheus believed that he needed a sacrifice because that's what he did the last time he broke into the Fade.

 

He used Justinia and the lyrium under the Temple as the substitute for the blood and lyrium the Ancient Magisters used in their ritual, although I guess he didn't need as much as before (if the Seven even did use the reputed amount, which I doubt) because the Orb provided most of the necessary welly to punch a hole into the Fade.

[SteveGarbage]

The reason Justinia had to die was so that there could be an actual plot to the game. A world that the bad guy already won because no one knew what the world happened is not a game.

 

Ha, an honest and legitimate answer. That's for sure. It works to give us a game to play.

But Corypheus marching into the Conclave is as tactically stupid as invading Russia in winter. It allows us to have a plot and play the game, but when you look at it from his perspective, he's incredibly stupid. That just detracts from me when the enemy's plans for world domination has such a fatal flaw in it. It's like every James Bond villain capturing him and revealing the secrets of his plan instead of just flat out executing him and getting him out of the way. It's like, "Dude, you definitely would have succeeded if you just shot Bond in the head and threw his body in a dumpster."

[SteveGarbage]

1) If he had gone and done his thing then come back all "hey, I'm a god. Worship my ass!" Then Divine Justinia is the one person that would have the power to be like "nope. This dude is a wannabe noobey pos!" It's a preemptive strike of sorts. He has to shake their faith in the Maker then swoop it up for himself.

2) Plan B. His backup was to crush Thedas under his heel then start fresh with a world that recognizes him as the god. 4 step plan. Divine. Empress. Demon army and then steam roll.

 

No. 1 doesn't make sense to me for this reason:

Nazi Germany wants to take over Poland. You COULD eliminate Poland's leader first in an attempt to shake the nation's faith and get them to easily give in to you. BUT you run the risk of turning that dead leader into a martyr and galvanizing an even fiercer resistance against you. Or, you can just bltizkrieg them and make them realize they don't have the power to defeat you and the only way to survive is surrender.

 

If Corypheus is a god, he can just blitzkrieg the Chantry with his god powers. Thedas can then either die by his superior power or submit.

[SteveGarbage]

While I think the idea of using Justinia as a sacrifice was to throw the entire Chantry into disarray and prove their Maker false, another secondary reason could be that Corypheus believed that he needed a sacrifice because that's what he did the last time he broke into the Fade.

 

He used Justinia and the lyrium under the Temple as the substitute for the blood and lyrium the Ancient Magisters used in their ritual, although I guess he didn't need as much as before (if the Seven even did use the reputed amount, which I doubt) because the Orb provided most of the necessary welly to punch a hole into the Fade.

 

Again - eliminating Justinia to shake the Chantry seems pointless. You can accomplish the same goal of crushing the Chantry after obtaining godhood.

 

The lyrium fuel is a good point I had forgotten about the Temple of Sacred Ashes. However, the argument could still be made that if you think you need that lyrium fuel, why not just wait a few weeks until everyone leaves and then go in there when the place isn't swarming with guards, Templars and mages? And instead of using Justinia, get some devout Venatori to fill in as the sacrifice or command one of your mind-controlled Wardens to die as your blood sacrifice.

 

Invading the Conclave is just unnecessary risk.

[Tielis]

I believe that Justinia was an "abomination" like Wynne, and he needed the spirit within her as a sacrifice.  This is why spiritJustinia was still around once the Inquisitor got the mark, and reached out to save him/her.

 

That, and the lyrium in the temple, too, of course.

[draken-heart]

Again - eliminating Justinia to shake the Chantry seems pointless. You can accomplish the same goal of crushing the Chantry after obtaining godhood.

 

The lyrium fuel is a good point I had forgotten about the Temple of Sacred Ashes. However, the argument could still be made that if you think you need that lyrium fuel, why not just wait a few weeks until everyone leaves and then go in there when the place isn't swarming with guards, Templars and mages? And instead of using Justinia, get some devout Venatori to fill in as the sacrifice or command one of your mind-controlled Wardens to die as your blood sacrifice.

 

Invading the Conclave is just unnecessary risk.

 

Maybe Corypheus did not necessarily invade the Conclave, and was just hiding when it happened?

[SteveGarbage]

I believe that Justinia was an "abomination" like Wynne, and he needed the spirit within her as a sacrifice.  This is why spiritJustinia was still around once the Inquisitor got the mark, and reached out to save him/her.

 

That, and the lyrium in the temple, too, of course.

 

Possible I suppose, but it raises questions:
1) How would Corypheus know the Divine is spirit-bonded?
2) Couldn't there be somewhere else he could find a spirit that's less dangerous? (Evangeline, who was given Wynne's spirit, for example)
3) It's unclear whether the spirit in the Fade is *actually* Justinia or if it's merely a spirit that takes on her form to better relate to the mortals.

 

The lyrium argument I touched on in my response to Sifr. Corypheus could wait for the Temple of Sacred Ashes to not be swarming with people. Or, I suppose, he could have found somewhere in the Deep Roads particularly loaded with lyrium.

[SteveGarbage]

Maybe Corypheus did not necessarily invade the Conclave, and was just hiding when it happened?

 

Poor word choice on my part. It wasn't an invasion in the sense of an forceful battle in.
There was no reason to take on the exceptional risk to sneak into/go to/attend/be present at the Conclave.

[draken-heart]

Poor word choice on my part. It wasn't an invasion in the sense of an forceful battle in.
There was no reason to take on the exceptional risk to sneak into/go to/attend/be present at the Conclave.

 

Maybe he was always there, hiding, and Justinia chose that for random reason, and was randomly picked to be the sacrifice.

[Andromelek]

1) Corypheus is arrogant and proud rather than logical, he doesn't only want to earn power but to break Theodosians morale by killing the head of the Chantry, you heard what Leliana said on Haven, she was saying the Maker is a cruel bastard for letting die the most holy, that was more or less the effect that Corypheus wanted.

2) One thing would be earn power and other different being worshiped, he got allies to worship him and that would ensure anyone on Thedas would worship him, Venatori are Tevinters and they were the ones pulling the strings to put the Orlesian Civil War and the Mage-Templar war as an advantage.

3) What makes no sense here is that Solas said he would use the mark the Inquisitor has, but the sequence was: Justina slaps Corypheus, Orb falls, Inquisitor picks it, Inquisitor gets the Anchor, BOOM!

Also yes, Corypheus was unaware the explosion would kill him, but after being killed by Hawke he doesn't care for dying because he knows he got a respawn, on the Temple of Mythal even seems intentional the way he walks into a magic trap.

[SteveGarbage]

1) Corypheus is arrogant and proud rather than logical, he doesn't only want to earn power but to break Theodosians morale by killing the head of the Chantry, you heard what Leliana said on Haven, she was saying the Maker is a cruel bastard for letting die the most holy, that was more or less the effect that Corypheus wanted.

2) One thing would be earn power and other different being worshiped, he got allies to worship him and that would ensure anyone on Thedas would worship him, Venatori are Tevinters and they were the ones pulling the strings to put the Orlesian Civil War and the Mage-Templar war as an advantage.

3) What makes no sense here is that Solas said he would use the mark the Inquisitor has, but the sequence was: Justina slaps Corypheus, Orb falls, Inquisitor picks it, Inquisitor gets the Anchor, BOOM!

Also yes, Corypheus was unaware the explosion would kill him, but after being killed by Hawke he doesn't care for dying because he knows he got a respawn, on the Temple of Mythal even seems intentional the way he walks into a magic trap.

 

Point 3 is one I had thought about as well. If the explosion would blow up Corypheus, then there would be no mark to be gained.
I assume what would happen is that the orb would just kind of maybe be sitting there in its full unlocked power and then Solas could kind of just walk through the wreckage and pick it up and gain whatever powers he needed.

 

I suppose the question of whether you get the Anchor before the explosion or if it would only be there if you somehow manage to survive the blast. Not really clear.

[Tielis]

Possible I suppose, but it raises questions:
1) How would Corypheus know the Divine is spirit-bonded?
2) Couldn't there be somewhere else he could find a spirit that's less dangerous? (Evangeline, who was given Wynne's spirit, for example)
3) It's unclear whether the spirit in the Fade is *actually* Justinia or if it's merely a spirit that takes on her form to better relate to the mortals.

 

The lyrium argument I touched on in my response to Sifr. Corypheus could wait for the Temple of Sacred Ashes to not be swarming with people. Or, I suppose, he could have found somewhere in the Deep Roads particularly loaded with lyrium.

 

It was also very convenient that this particular person was going to be atop a mountain of lyrium.

[Tielis]

3) What makes no sense here is that Solas said he would use the mark the Inquisitor has, but the sequence was: Justina slaps Corypheus, Orb falls, Inquisitor picks it, Inquisitor gets the Anchor, BOOM!

 

I'm not really inclined to believe everything that Fen'Harel says, even if it's the only explanation we have right now...

[SurelyForth]

Given the fact that Solas wanted the orb back, my guess is that it would have still functioned to give him an anchor, but Corypheus didn't know that/couldn't figure out how to make it happen again. 

 

And I don't think you're going to get the answer you want, dude, especially if you insist on minimizing "Corypheus was an out of touch, arrogant, and mostly immortal being aspiring to godhood" in your calculations, when it should actually be a huge thing.  I mean, look at how he screws up at Haven- he could have just ordered his lyrium dragon to chomp down on the Herald's head and immediately attempted to remove the anchor. Instead, he monologued, threw an elegant fit, and then got himself in a situation where he had to flee and leave the Herald both with the mark intact and capable of escaping.

[SteveGarbage]

Given the fact that Solas wanted the orb back, my guess is that it would have still functioned to give him an anchor, but Corypheus didn't know that/couldn't figure out how to make it happen again. 

 

And I don't think you're going to get the answer you want, dude, especially if you insist on minimizing "Corypheus was an out of touch, arrogant, and mostly immortal being aspiring to godhood" in your calculations, when it should actually be a huge thing.  I mean, look at how he screws up at Haven- he could have just ordered his lyrium dragon to chomp down on the Herald's head and immediately attempted to remove the anchor. Instead, he monologued, threw an elegant fit, and then got himself in a situation where he had to flee and leave the Herald both with the mark intact and capable of escaping.

 

Well there was the sense that he was examining the mark to try to gauge whether or not he can steal it back. He certainly could have done less blabbing while doing it.
It's been a while since I've played through that part, but my recollection was he WAS about the kill the Herald to remove him as a rival, even one he did not think was a threat. But the Herald manages to launch the trebuchet and escape.

[Andromelek]

I'm not really inclined to believe everything that Fen'Harel says, even if it's the only explanation we have right now...

Likely seems that he doesn't even know what he's doing, the part when he says he was unable to beat the Evanuir then but now he has a plan makes me believe he prefers to screw the world and risk what remains against the Evanuirs before seeing how the world has turned to be now.