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[leaguer of one]

Several months ago I had opened a thread asking "Why did the Divine need to die?" questioning why Justinia had to perish as part of the story. The general response had been Corypheus targeted her as a way to destabilize southern Thedas by killing her and blowing up a large contingent of the Chantry, Templars and mages. So I let it drop, even though I wasn't satisfied.

 

But after Trespasser, I want to reopen the conversation because some of the new content really confirmed that there was no legitimate reason for Divine Justinia to die.

 

The facts

1) The ritual to create the Breach appears to need some sort of sacrifice. Corypheus refers to Justinia as "the sacrifice."

2) Although Divine Justinia represent a the head of a powerful organization, but physically she has no special features or abilities that separate her from any other human. She is an average non-mage human female.

3) The Conclave was *supposed* to be a high security location, making it difficult for interlopers to get in. The chance for detection would be high.

4) Corypheus attempted the ritual with the goal of obtaining the Anchor, being able to enter the Fade physically and claim the empty throne at the heart of the Black City.

 

 

1.and 2. We don't kniw the full detail on this and maybe stated later.

 

3. Warden's....'nuff said.

 

4. Yes... and?

[Illegitimus]

A few thoughts come to mind:

 

Justinia is NOT an average woman.  Not in the fade where she stands out enough that that a powerful spirit of faith apparently imprinted on her Cole-style.  That isn't usual.  Just because she isn't a mage doesn't mean there was nothing special about her.  

 

The Temple of Ashes is NOT just a high security place.  It's a place filled with mysterious arcane power that was constantly being guarded by either Templars or Chantry mercenaries.  It was built on a major deposit of lyriium of the special pure kind you just don't see that close to the surface, all of which was turned into the red stuff by what Corypheus did.  The fact that the Conclave involved a horde of people who didn't know each other, everyone from rebel mages, to random Chantry bureaucrats, to Vashoth mercenaries, to Dalish and Carta spies meant that the only way it could have been less secure was if you showed up right before Brother Genitivi made it back.  If Corypheus needed to do his ritual in that place, and wanted to not be mugged on the way in by a security force, then he'd never have more distractions to hand.

 

And speaking of the ritual, Justinia's specialness might be beside the point.  This was one of those elaborate old-school rituals filled with gratuitous symbolism, like the ones foolish wardens do in the Circle.  The only special thing about those red threads you apply to those statues is that they provide the appropriate symbolism.  The threads symbolically represent the flows of aetherial power that create and sustain the magical binding you are messing with.  Corypheus isn't just trying to unlock the key so he can go physically into the Fade.  He wants to go to the Black City, and one does not just walk into the Black City.  Literally.  You can actually just walk into Mordor.  You just have to kill or sneak past a lot of things on the way.  But no matter how far you go in the fade, the Black City is always the same distance away.  So for Corypheus the key to the fade is just one of the components in his ritual.  Another is the correct ritual space with lots of lyrium to draw on.  And a third might just be the one priestess who embodies the faith that drove Corypheus's religion into extinction.  Killing her might symbolically represent Corypheus's apotheosis, at least in his mind, and the mind is of course where all symbolism dwells.  

 

That being said....Corypheus doesn't really know this ritual will work.  It's an experiment.  He's trying to get it right.  Didn't quite happen the first time.  Maybe it won't this time either.  Who know how many different combinations he'll have to try before he finds the one that really clicks?  The fact that he went to the trouble to take the Wardens off the board with the fake calling, to foment a civil war in Orlais to keep their military out of play doesn't look like he's just assuming that he can become a god and that will be that. Keeping the templars and mages out of play could be very useful while he goes through the next dozen or so experiments in apotheosis.  

 

Then again, who is to say that being a "god" actually renders you impervious to everything an army of templars and mages working together can do?  The Old Gods he's seeking to emulate were bound by someone after all.   

[Dragonovith]

What do you expect from a villain like Corypheus? He's like the Black Knight from the Holy Grail, Hawke gave him a thrashing, but no, he needed a another one... and do you remember the first battle in Heaven? You fool him with a catapult, luckily he had a dragon, if not, he would be ice cream, and after that, he fails miserably in creating a sense of urgency in the player, because he never feels like a real threat, he never wins, his plans never work, he's like the coyote and we, the road runner. 

[Lumix19]

How do we know he didn't know it would blow up? The Imperium has some history with the foci and he must have known something about it to unlock it. Besides he was immortal, with all the Grey Wardens he brought (note the conspicuous lack of Venatori) he could probably be assured he would survive to reclaim the orb (as we know did happen).

[TheKomandorShepard]

Cory isn't brightest individual, after all he created his only weakness.

I wonder if even writers put any thought into why he didn't use just random person and instead risked with his plan.  

[Penguin]

I always just assume it's Cory's inner drama queen demand him to do it. I mean look at his black and white stripes stocking and black high heels, he is obviously not the most logical kind.

[azarhal]

How do we know he didn't know it would blow up? The Imperium has some history with the foci and he must have known something about it to unlock it. Besides he was immortal, with all the Grey Wardens he brought (note the conspicuous lack of Venatori) he could probably be assured he would survive to reclaim the orb (as we know did happen).

 

It's quite possible that Solas mistake with Corypheus was not that he was immortal and he didn't know it. Corypheus could very much be a lot more knowledgeable about foci than Solas expected and he preferred to use his Grey Warden instead of the Venatori.

[Iakus]

1) Yeah, presumably Corypheus could have used anyone.  But Corypheus is also supremely arrogant.  He's a Tevinter magister old old, who has literally mastered his taint (in his own mind anyway) and fancies himself a god in all but name already.  He even created his own pet archdemon just because he can, as a symbol of him being above the Old Gods.  Taking out the head of the organization  most likely to oppose him in his bid for godhood would be deliciously appropriate for him

 

2) Corypheus doesn't just want to become a god, he wants to rule Thedas, and bring back the old Imperium.  To do that he'll need minions.  And people are going to object to those minions.  Strenuously. So it's smart to neutralize those who will fight him hardest:  the Templars, mages, Grey Wardens, and Orlais,  Plus subvert some of the lesser powers like Ferelden, Nevarra, Antiva, and such.

 

Just because he's a god doesn't mean he'll want to do everything himself.

 

3) Whether an explosion happened or not, the Divine would still be dead.

 

Corypheus didn't need to kill the Divine.  He wanted to kill the Divine both for symbolic purposes and to make things a bit easier later on.

[Todrazok]

Consider what Corypheus' goal is, to ascend into the Black City and proclaim himself as the world's new God. The explosion at the Temple of Sacred Ashes wasn't part of his plan at all.

 

The way I see it, had the ritual gone according to Corypheus' plan, He would've revealed himself to the people who were at the Temple, tell them that the Divine is dead, and that the false Maker doesn't exist, and then proceed with opening the Breach and enter the Black City for all the world to see. 

 

Was using the Divine as a sacrifice necessary? Probably not, but it was very symbolic to him in the grand scheme of denouncing the Maker and Andrastianism in his ascension to godhood. 

[Iakus]

Consider what Corypheus' goal is, to ascend into the Black City and proclaim himself as the world's new God. The explosion at the Temple of Sacred Ashes wasn't part of his plan at all.

 

The way I see it, had the ritual gone according to Corypheus' plan, He would've revealed himself to the people who were at the Temple, tell them that the Divine is dead, and that the false Maker doesn't exist, and then proceed with opening the Breach and enter the Black City for all the world to see. 

 

Was using the Divine as a sacrifice necessary? Probably not, but it was very symbolic to him in the grand scheme of denouncing the Maker and Andrastianism in his ascension to godhood. 

Yup, he's like Loki in The Avengers:

 

Tony Stark:  He made it personal.
Steve Rogers: That's not the point.
Tony Stark: That IS the point.  That's Loki's point!  He hit us all right where we live.  Why?
Steve Rogers: To tear us apart.
Tony Stark: Yeah, divide and conquer is great, but he knows he has to take us out to win, right?  THAT'S what he wants.  He wants to beat us, he wants to be seen doing it.  He wants an audience.
Steve Rogers: Right.  I caught his act at Stuttgart.
Tony Stark: Yeah, that was just previews.  This is - this is opening night.  And Loki, he's a full-tilt diva, right?  He wants flowers, he wants parades.  He wants a monument built to the skies with his name plastered...
Tony Stark: Sonofabitch!

 

Now replace "Star Tower" with "Temple of Sacred Ashes" 

[Bowie Hawkins]

But why risk detection and failure, to make the statement? 

 

Spoiler

Because Solas was steering him toward that in order to eliminate the leaders of the Chantry, the Circle, and the Templars, all in one shot.

[Gervaise]

I think that may be it is a combination of symbolism and perhaps a way of ensuring he gets straight into the Black City.   May be he thought having someone who believed in the Maker would make some sort of link to the place.   Though to be honest I couldn't really understand the sacrifice part even before Trespasser.   Getting her to bow before him when he demonstrated there was no Maker seems a much more effective symbolic gesture than simply killing her.

 

I don't think he thought it would explode.    Unleash a huge amount of power, yes, but not explode.    If Tevinter had foci then he would think he knew how to unlock its potential.   Clearly that was what Solas was banking on, except he knew it had so much accumulated power waiting to be released that the person doing so ought to have been killed.  

 

I get the feeling that demon army and taking out the ruler of Orlais was more a contingency plan should people not immediately fall at his feet when he announced himself to the people gathered at the Conclave.    When he lost the anchor, it seems he had to bring forward his invasion plan to before his assumption of godhood.    If you do Hushed Whispers he seems to be sweeping across Orlais while the breach continues to weaken the Veil but he has not yet found a way to get into the Fade, apart from waiting for a hole big enough to do so.   

 

As for his second opening of the sky, personally I think he had lost it by then.    He returned to the scene of his previous failure and seemed to be going through the motions of what he would have done the first time if the explosion hadn't destroyed his potential subjects - "Bow before me......" that sort of thing.  

[Carmen_Willow]

I'm not aware of any canon lore that supports your theory about the weakened Veil making it easier to create a second Breach.

 

 

Tears--or micro-breeches--occur naturally in any place where a lot of bloodshed and death happen (or a lot of magic). So yes, a veil weakened by a lot of death/bloodshed would make a second breach easier.  See Warden's Keep (DA:O), where the demons begin to pour through and explain to the blood mage it's because of all the death and bloodshed going on. See Also,  Also at the beginning of DA:I, as they are walking down to the temple ruins, Solas explains that a lot of magic or bloodshed weaken the veil. There are other mentions throughout the various games of the veil being weakened in various places by wars, and other events of mass destruction.

[SandiKay0]

Only the Divine can call an exhalted march. Killing her created a power vacuum, which gave him time to destabilize the rest of Southern Thadas. She was also ritually significant based on worshipers. He had already placed his people to take over the other powers in Thadas. She was trying to bring peace, and had a back up plan with the inquisition if it failed.

[Bleachrude]

*LOL*

 

OP, this is the Saren problem from ME1.

 

In ME1, Saren attacks Eden Prime to obtain the location of the conduit so he can sneak into the citadel but if he didn't attack Eden Prime, he would still be conidered the council's greatest spectre and not NEED to sneak around

[AtreiyaN7]

Killing the Divine would demoralize a sizable chunk of of the population of Thedas and would work as a display of Corypheus's own power, which I expect appealed to his massive ego. What better way to show off that Corypheus is the new and only god that everyone needs to bow down to now? By killing the one person who heads an entire religion devoted to Andraste and the Maker.

 

It also lends some credence to his claim that the Maker doesn't exist if he can blithely kill the Divine without any last-minute miracle save. I feel that it was meant to be the kind of blow that would make a lot of ultra-faithful people lose their faith and lose their will to put up any kind of resistance (which makes mopping up that much easier for Corypheus).

 

That aside, I think a lot of what happened in the past and what happened in DA:I is entirely about ego and pure hubris. Did the ancient Tevinter magisters try to enter the Golden City because it was a good idea? No, it was because they were prideful and thought they were sooooooo damned smart that they knew what they were doing - not realizing that entering the Golden City was going to turn into the world's biggest screwup.

 

Corypheus clearly hasn't become more rational, more reasonable, or more logical during the intervening millennia. I think he does things according to his own twisted logic but that he's mainly ruled by ego (an ego that seems to have only gotten bigger over the years). Sure, he probably could have picked anyone else to sacrifice, but using Justinia likely appealed to him for the reasons that I stated (which I think fall in line with what other posters have already said in here).

[Bleachrude]

re: Killing the divine as symbolism

 

That doesn't make sense as the OP states since if Corphy had just grabbed a random person, he could've become a god and THEN simply walked intot he middle of Val royeaux and killed the Divine. If anything, THAT would actually break more people's faith since not only does he show off his power to way more people (remember, Thedas doesn't have instant communication and I seriously doubt Haven and the temple had more people in it than the suoounding area of the White Spire. but by killing the divine in her seat of power, Corphy would also show off how ineffectual the orlesian army would be. If the templars AND chevaliers could not stop him, that would scare more people IMO.

[AtreiyaN7]

re: Killing the divine as symbolism

 

That doesn't make sense as the OP states since if Corphy had just grabbed a random person, he could've become a god and THEN simply walked intot he middle of Val royeaux and killed the Divine. If anything, THAT would actually break more people's faith since not only does he show off his power to way more people (remember, Thedas doesn't have instant communication and I seriously doubt Haven and the temple had more people in it than the suoounding area of the White Spire. but by killing the divine in her seat of power, Corphy would also show off how ineffectual the orlesian army would be. If the templars AND chevaliers could not stop him, that would scare more people IMO.

 

 

The Conclave was held at the restored Temple of Sacred Ashes, which is a holy site - probably the holiest site in Thedas, so maybe the where was as important than the who as far as the sacrifice went. Honestly, how can you say that the resting place of Andraste's ashes isn't substantially more significant than what amounts to one silly not-particularly-holy building in Val Royeaux?

 

I mean, let's remember what happened in DA:O - you found the actual Sacred Ashes in the Temple with your Warden. I think you're underestimating the significance of the Temple and Corypheus's subsequent destruction of it. Furthermore, I still believe that using Justinia satisfied his ego and was intended to sow fear among people when word got around (while there is no instantaneous communication as you said, it's clear that news does travel over time).

 

Why does sowing that fear matter? Because omnipotence might not be instantaneous even after one achieves "godhood." Look at Solas, who under the name of Fen'Harel is viewed as a "god" but is really just a very powerful eleven magister on the level of the Evanuris (who were also just very powerful elven magisters). Even though Solas is a "god" (of a sort), it took him at least two years to recover enough power to the point in Trespasser that he could pretty much turn someone to stone just by thinking it.

 

All I'm saying is that it might take a while for Corypheus to fully come into his new powers despite achieving "godhood." That aside, if you think about it, it actually makes some strategic sense to make the sacrifice at the Conclave. How else - other than a peace summit in a slightly neutral location - would you get so many mages, Templars, and Chantry people together in one location and be able wipe them all out in one fell swoop? I know you think it was a high-security location, but I have to point out that the security was completely compromised and that Corypheus had his pet Wardens infilitrate the Conclave. They were then able to just grab Justinia, so the security there was pretty much a joke.

[MrMrPendragon]

It's only there to create the immediate need for an all-star team that will sort everything out (the Inquisition)

 

 

- The Divine dying makes no sense

- The Inquisitor being there at the right moment makes no sense, especially if you're non-human. Since when can non-humans just waltz around a place full of VIPs?

- Corypheus' original plan to kill her makes no sesne - since he doesn't need to create chaos because he wins anyway once he gets to the Fade.

[SandiKay0]

It makes plently sense. She was one of the most powerful people in the world of Thedas! A Tevinter Magister performes ritualistic magic. Ritually speaking sacificing the Most Holy of Holies would be a powerful sacrifice. The amount of power due to worship is just a side benifit. Cole states that being worshiped increases your personal power. She isn't a mage but she still yet has power. And if he knew the orb would expolode he had a temple full of people to go with her. It too being a place of worship. A place of power.

[In Exile]

There's no sacrifice needed to power the orb - the Inquisitor acquires the mark before a sacrifice is made, and it looks like the act of picking up the orb and passing on the anchor triggerred the Breach in the first place. 

[Lumix19]

There's no sacrifice needed to power the orb - the Inquisitor acquires the mark before a sacrifice is made, and it looks like the act of picking up the orb and passing on the anchor triggerred the Breach in the first place.

Maybe Corypheus was the sacrifice.

[AntiChri5]

Copy and pasting what I have said elsewhere:

 

As others have explained, Corypheus had very good reasons for wanting Justinia dead.

 

However, that doesn't mean he necessarily had to use her as the sacrifice.

 

The reason why he used her specifically, rather then simply shanking her and grabbing some random idiot to sacrifice, is, in my opinion, 100% egotistical drama.

 

Hubris has been the defining characteristic of the Magisters who breached The Golden City since the intro to Dragon Age: Origins. Corypheus was their leader (as much as those assholes could be said to have a leader). So he is pretty much the most arrogant dipshit to have ever lived. And because of it he got cast down, from immeasurable power all the way to grotesque monsterhood. He returns to find he has been forgotten, his legacy is a horrific plague which weakened his great Empire to the point that another religion kicked down the doors and almost burnt the place to nothing, then wound up converting it instead. His gods, including the one he was high priest to, are now forgotten and silent, his homeland worshiping a figure that is against everything he stands for and for everything he stands against.

 

In short, Corypheus' absurdly inflated ego has been ravaged in every way possible. So he decides to become a new god. To destroy this new world and create one of his own. To do that, he is going to need a sacrifice.

 

Enter the Divine. She represents everything he despises. The ascension of the Chantry, the subjugation of the Mages, the might of Orlais. She is the closest thing to a living god in Thedas.

 

Corypheus couldn't NOT have chosen her as the sacrifice. Cause he's a ****** loon.

[Mykel54]

Corypheus wanted to become the new and only god of the world, he was basically proving false/destroying every other faith out there, so only his worship would remain.

 

The Divine is the head of the largest religion in Thedas, and killing her sends a message of despair to every Andrastian (like Leliana says: "if the maker doesn´t intervene to save the divine, then what good is he?"), thus weakening their faith and making them more amenable to worship the Elder One.

 

Another possibility is that Corypheus may be aware of the relation between faith and spirits, so weakening the andrastian faith may have been a way to weaken the fade spirits that would resist his usurpation of the black city.

[Jaron Oberyn]

It absolutely makes sense. And the answer is arrogance. Corypheus thought his plan was immune to failure. Killing the divine would also serve as a slap in the face to the largest religious group in Thedas. Her death alone would throw the south into chaos.