87 réponses à ce sujet

[TastesLikeTNT]

Because they were Ben-Hassrath, and the Qunari don't consider what the Ben-Hassrath do to technically be fighting since they are priests, not warriors. The Ben-Hassrath fall under the Ariqun, not the Arishok.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Technically, she was throwing a spear but hey the qun does not stop her from doing that. It's not like there were no female Ben hassrith with swords in this dlc.

I'm honestly more confused by her being a redhead than anything. Bull said they didn't exist. Is that a role-based thing in the Qun too now? lol

[Shechinah]

I'm honestly more confused by her being a redhead than anything. Bull said they didn't exist. Is that a role-based thing in the Qun, too? lol

 

Could be dye though I do think there is red option in the Qunari sliders. I'm not sure but I think there might be.
 

[Dr. rotinaj]

No, because people who are transgender don't simply decide on a whim to start living as another sex, nor to eschew or partake in certain activities. It's not something that someone simply choses...

 

Reread my post. I never said it was a decision. In my hypothetical situation, I was asking if it was possible for a male qunari to game the system by saying he is actually a woman.

[Shechinah]

Reread my post. I never said it was a decision. In my hypothetical situation, I was asking if it was possible for a male qunari to game the system by saying he is actually a woman.

 

Possibly but my guess would be that it would be a difficult gamble:

 

iIt would require him to present evidence that would support his claim and the Tamassran would still be the ones to decide whether or not he would have the role of baker meaning he could wind up in a role he did not desire even if he has a merit for baking.

 

Other circumstances would also need to be noted such as how long he has been in the military since sudden incompetence would be suspecious and an injury that removes him permanently from combat might also remove him from the role as a baker though it would depend on the injury in question.

 

After all of that, there is still the chance of suspecion falling on him and him ending up in the hands of the inquisitive hands of the Qun which can be less than pleasent.  

 

TL:DR - A simple say would not change the hypothetical person in question's role, I believe.

[Drasanil]

It will be Dragon Age XV and people will still be quoting that line of Sten's.

 

Sten was a soldier. It wasn't his job to interpret the Qun or assign people's roles within it. He may have been misinformed, or the issue may have been above his rank. He wasn't an authority on the subject. Bull, on the other hand, is/was a Ben-Hassrath agent reporting to the Ariqun. He has a much clearer understanding of the Qun and how it works.

 

None of that holds up when you compare the two by their own experience of the Qun as children: 

 

-Sten was made to learn the entirety of the Qun by heart and spent countless hours locked in study. Doesn't even understand the concept of playing. 

 

-Bull had a jolly old time playing blocks with mommy-tamassaran and probably shirked his responsibilities on at least a semi-regular basis given they found out he was "good at lying". 

 

Which one is the greater authroity on the Qun again? Because looking at their credentials, I'd go with Sten hands down. So yeah, there's a good reason why people will keep citing Sten and labeling Iron Bull's CuddlyQun as a retcon. 

[Donk]

Because they're not women. They are men. They have short hair.

 

Didn't you know?

All women in this game are men.

[Drasanil]

Because they're not women. They are men. They have short hair.

 

Didn't you know?

All women in this game are men.

 

Well, that explains the Formal Attire 

[Shechinah]

....

 

Why would Sten, a member of the Antaam, know the Qun philosophy and its societal aspects in depth than Iron Bull, a member of the Ben-Hassrah?

 

Sten is a member of the beresaad which gathers military intelligence and protects the Qunari society by seeking threats to it, yes, but that does not mean he knows every aspect of it and its philosophy the way a member of the Ben-Hassrath would since the latter is essentially the mind police of the Qunari society. 

 

Additionally, Sten has the following quotes:

 

Sten: "I am a simple creature. I like swords, I follow orders. What else is there to be puzzled by?"

 

This quote, in my opinion, makes it probable to think that he would not put the gender perception of another culture above that of his own and trust in the judgement of the Ariqun. Why should he consider the uneducated bas to know better about such things than the Tamassarans whose role it is to know and judge such things? 

 

Sten: "People are not simple. They cannot be summarized for easy reference in the manner of: 'The elves are a lithe, pointy eared people who excel at poverty.'"

 

A society, a culture and a people, fictional or non-fictional I feel should not be defined by a single person nor should said single person be considered an all-knowing source of information that cannot be fallible.   

 

Furthermore there is this bit of a dialogue between Hawke and the Arishok, the leader of the Antaam, during the first Act.    

 

Arishok: "The triumvirate divides and governs, one is nothing without the other.

Hawke: "Can you tell me about the other two parts?"

Arishok: "No."

Hawke: "Now you are just being difficult."

Arishok: "I am no more equipped to explain than you are to understand. Arishok, Arigena, Ariqun: Pillars of the Qunari - Of the nation that must be. There is but one way to know these, human... and I have yet to decide if it must be done"

 

The Arishok, the leader of the Antaam, claims it is not for him to explain the Qun to outsiders and strongly implies that the only way to know the Qun is to be a part of their society and live their philosophy, willing or otherwise. 

 

As a note: Sten's quote about people is one of my all-time favorite quotes. 
 

[Drasanil]

Why would Sten, a member of the Antaam, know the Qun philosophy and its societal aspects in depth than Iron Bull, a member of the Ben-Hassrah?

 

What part about being made to memorize the Qun by heart and countless hours spent in study is hard to understand? If it was just about Sten being a good soldier, why bother with all training in the Qun specifically? That both Sten and the Arishok don't feel qualified to explain basic things despite obviously knowing it quite well indicates they actually understand and live by the Qun as it was intended.

 

Compare that to Iron Bull who doesn't really know it all that well and had a completely different childhood/education than Sten, up to and including apparently getting the cliffnotes version while playing blocks because it wouldn't be his job.

[Shechinah]

1. part about being made to memorize the Qun by heart and countless hours spent in study is hard to understand? If it was just about Sten being a good soldier, why bother with all training in the Qun specifically?

 

2. That both Sten and the Arishok don't feel qualified to explain basic things despite obviously knowing it quite well indicates they actually understand and live by the Qun as it was intended.

 

3. Compare that to Iron Bull who doesn't really know it all that well and had a completely different childhood/education than Sten, up to and including apparently getting the cliffnotes version while playing blocks because it wouldn't be his job.

 

1. If you could, would you mind pointing me in the direction of where it says Sten spent countless hours in study and has memorized the Qun like if it is banter, developer's notes or on the Wikipedia? I'm having a bit trouble finding it but it may be me missing it somewhere in the articles.

 

2. That the both of them feel they are not qualified to explain basic things and says as much might be taken to mean that they do not want what they say to be considered the final and only say on the topic especially if it is about something as complex as society and culture.   

 

3. Could you elaborate further on these points with some examples in addition because I feel it would further my understanding of what you mean by this? 
 

[daveliam]

I'm not really seeing why this is confusing to people.  It's pretty clear, albeit very different from how most real-world societies operate.

 

Tamassrans decide your role in the Qun as a child.  This is not determined by your biological sex, although there is a strong correlation between them.  Often biological females tend to excel at certain tasks, which are deemed 'female' tasks.  Biological males tend to excel at other tasks, which are deemed "male tasks".  You don't get assigned to a role based on your biological sex.  You get assigned to a role based on what you excel at.

 

Whatever role you are assigned to determines how the society views your gender.  If you are assigned to a 'male role', then you are considered male, regardless of your biological sex.  All Antaam are male, despite the biological sex that they were born.  All Tamassrans are female, despite the biological sex that they were born. 

 

If your assigned role is associated with a gender different than your biological sex, then you are an Aqun-Athlok.  So it's less of 'being transgender' in the way that we are familiar with it.  Sure, a Qunari could be born a female, but identify as a male and, therefore, excel at male tasks.  This person would be transgender as we know it (such as Krem, if he were Qunari).  But, as I understand it, a male Qunari who identifies as male as a child would still be considered female and an Aqun-Athlok if he were assigned to be a baker.

 

The only place where we don't have a clear distinction is if your role (such as Ben Hassrath) doesn't have a gender associated with it.  For example, what if you were a born a biological female but were transgender (i.e. identifies from a young age as a male), but excelled in skills that got you assigned as a Ben Hassrath.  Do the Qunari have a concept for that individual should he decide to identify as male and act in a role that isn't designated by gender?  Would he still be considered an Aqun-Athlok?  Or would they say to him, "You were born a female and females can be Ben Hassrath, so you are still female")?

 

This is why none of what Sten says is contradicted.  Leliana is a female because she's, in his eyes, the equivalent of a Ben Hassrath, who can be female.  But the female Warden is confusing.  Not because biological females don't fight.  But because any biological females who do fight are considered males.  But the female Warden still considers herself female and acts in a male role.  Hence his confusion.  I don't see a contradiction at all. 

[vertigomez]

I always wondered if there were biologically "male" Tamassrans. I mean, you'd think so... not only because caring for kids isn't ovary-specific, but also 'cause the Tamassrans-as-sex-healers thing. Unless both females and males are expected to be attracted to them regardless? Hmm.

[daveliam]

I always wondered if there were biologically "male" Tamassrans. I mean, you'd think so... not only because caring for kids isn't ovary-specific, but also 'cause the Tamassrans-as-sex-healers thing. Unless both females and males are expected to be attracted to them regardless? Hmm.

 

I'd suspect that there have probably been biologically male Tamassrans in the past.  But I don't think the 'sex healer' thing plays a role at all.  My understanding is that it's not about 'attraction' as it is 'sexual release'.  Pretty much any person of any biological sex can fill that role for any other person of any biological sex.  It might be more difficult to do in some situations, but physiology takes over at some point, right?

[Lazarillo]

1. If you could, would you mind pointing me in the direction of where it says Sten spent countless hours in study and has memorized the Qun like if it is banter, developer's notes or on the Wikipedia? I'm having a bit trouble finding it but it may be me missing it somewhere in the articles.

 

Just regarding this point, I don't remember the exact quote, but it's from one of the conversations you can have with him, you ask what he was quoting when caged, and he talks a little bit about the Qun, and you can ask him if he's really memorized the whole thing.  His response is to be vaguely bewildered in that classic Sten way as to how anyone could not have memorized a holy text that they vow to live their life by.

[Shechinah]

 

...

 

My thanks. I'll see if I can find it now
 

[Drasanil]

1. If you could, would you mind pointing me in the direction of where it says Sten spent countless hours in study and has memorized the Qun like if it is banter, developer's notes or on the Wikipedia? I'm having a bit trouble finding it but it may be me missing it somewhere in the articles.

 

2. That the both of them feel they are not qualified to explain basic things and says as much might be taken to mean that they do not want what they say to be considered the final and only say on the topic especially if it is about something as complex as society and culture.   

 

3. Could you elaborate further on these points with some examples in addition because I feel it would further my understanding of what you mean by this? 
 

 

1. When you take Sten to Denerim he sees children playing and has a confused reaction about what they are doing. After which you it opens up entire conversation/exposition about his childhood under the Qun where he spent countless hours locked in study. As for memorising the Qun by heart it comes up in the "I Have a Question" section when you ask him "What were you quoting earlier?" Here's the wiki approval chain for it, it doesn't include Sten's answers but look it up for yourself, he says he learned it by heart as you can see by the "And you have it memorized?".

Spoiler

What were you quoting earlier?

Note: This conversation can be triggered only if Sten ends first conversation about mages with "As a fish stranded by the tide knows the air or a drowning man knows the sea, so does a mage know magic.")

1. What is the Qun, exactly? (end)  (+7)
2. And you have it memorized?
   1. Not word-forword. (end)  (-3)
   2. Of course I do. (end)  (+4)
   3. Not really. (end) (-3)
3. Well, I'd know wisdom if I heard it. (end)

 

2. Maybe. That said, Sten tells you to ask the priests because they are qualified to explain things to children when you ask him about the Qun. Implying he understands it but that he doesn't think you'd be able to unless you had a specialist holding your hand through it.

 

3.  Elaborate in what sense? If you talked to both Sten and Bull the description of their experience as children under the Qun are so starkly at odds in both tone and content it can't be made more readily apparent. Sten doesn't even understand the concept of playing, Bull has fond memories of playing blocks with the Tamassaran, Sten was forced to memorize the Qun and spent countless hours in study, Iron Bull claims most aren't even properly taught the Qun because it won't be their jobs. 

[vertigomez]

I'd suspect that there have probably been biologically male Tamassrans in the past.  But I don't think the 'sex healer' thing plays a role at all.  My understanding is that it's not about 'attraction' as it is 'sexual release'.  Pretty much any person of any biological sex can fill that role for any other person of any biological sex.  It might be more difficult to do in some situations, but physiology takes over at some point, right?

Huh. Maybe that's the case, but I guess I have trouble imagining that one would.. get much out of it, if that's the case. I mean, it's different for everyone but if I'm not mentally "there" and into it, I'm not getting off no matter how much physical stimulation there is. (Belated TMI warning? Lol )

[AresKeith]

No, just complainers who don't get Cerberus.

 

Let's be honest, Cerberus compared to the Qunari was VERY inconsistent 

[Mr.House]

Consdering all the lies Bull said,I'm surprised people still take what he said at face value. I didn't see any cuddlyqun in Trespasser.

[AresKeith]

Consdering all the lies Bull said,I'm surprised people still take what he said at face value. I didn't see any cuddlyqun in Trespasser.

 

I'm surprised people main focus on that comment from Bull even when he said what the Qun would do to people like Sera and Varric 

[Drasanil]

Consdering all the lies Bull said,I'm surprised people still take what he said at face value. I didn't see any cuddlyqun in Trespasser.

 

The Viddasala, of all people, essentially calls you a meanie if the dragon's health gets too low before you free it. 

[vertigomez]

Consdering all the lies Bull said,I'm surprised people still take what he said at face value. I didn't see any cuddlyqun in Trespasser.

Honestly, Bull pretty much tries to adjust the Qun to what he already believes - he knows in his heart that Krem is a man, that Cassandra is a warrior, etc. He tries to use the Qun to justify what he already feels so that he can still call himself a Qunari.

[Mr.House]

The Viddasala, of all people, essentially calls you a meanie if the dragon's health gets too low before you free it. 

You do know that this is the same person who also thinks conquering and converting the south is fine?

[Drasanil]

You do know that this is the same person who also thinks conquering and converting the south is fine?

 

That's why I said "of all people". Doesn't change the fact she calls you out for hurting the innocent dragon.