139 réponses à ce sujet

[rx00]

Most pre-18th European don't regard pagans or non-European people as human beings and won't shed a single tear when they enslave or mass-murdering them. Are they cruel? Yes. Are they insane? No. Same goes Solas.

[the Dame]

Dayum. I like the way you think, my dear Grand Dame.

 

But I must admit, Lyn, I have certain regrets considering 20^th point on the list...

[Donk]

But I must admit, Lyn, I have certain regrets considering 20^th point on the list...

 

Why, because you didn't get any?

[Lynroy: Final Edition]

But I must admit, Lyn, I have certain regrets considering 20^th point on the list...

Not enough or too much?

[Fearsome1]

I do not interpret anything presented about Solas as him being psychotic. He is cunning and manipulative in his methods, but other than not knowing yet that he has opted to follow a bullshit path that will not end well for him, I don't think that he is crazy. Only misguided and stubborn!

[phishface]

Remember that empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. Neither are psychosis and psychopathy.

 

But let’s try an analogy.

 

Subject X grows up in a beautiful mansion where he lives with his rich but dysfunctional family. There are two factions in his family, one of which abuses the other. This culminates in X’s sister being murdered. X’s response to this is to burn the family house down with everyone inside it. The abusers are killed, but the abused are all horrifically burned and severely disabled. Strangely, there is one person who escapes serious injury, and that is X himself.

 

In time, a new house is built where the old mansion once stood, and a new family moves in. X decides he wants the old house back, so he can move his surviving family back in. So he decides to burn down the new house, with the new family inside it. To be clear, his solution to the problem of having destroyed his whole family is to destroy another one.

 

He invents a deadly incendiary device, and secretly gives it to a local gangster who X knows wants the new house for himself. Part of his plan is for the incendiary device to kill the gangster as well as burning down the house (basically, anyone who comes into contact with X is at severe risk of being killed). But the plan goes wrong. The gangster messes up, and only succeeds in burning a hole in the roof. The family starts to fight back against the gangster.

 

Now X insinuates himself into the family he wants to slaughter, and fools them into trusting him as a friend and advisor. His manipulation is so thorough that he even makes one of them fall in love with him. All the time, he is secretly planning the murder of his new friends, including his lover.

 

Eventually, the new family defeat the gangster, with X’s help. X even manipulates some of the younger, idealistic members of the family to betray the others, including his lover. But it is all a cruel lie – if his plan goes right this time, they’ll die too. Though he’s lost his incendiary device, he’s started plotting another way to burn the house down.

 

Subject X is a great guy though. Sometimes he says he feels sorry for some of the many people he’s murdered. And he can totally understand that serial murder is perhaps a bad thing. Also, he’s totally got reasons for all the killing, lies and manipulation. So it’s totally fine.

[Cobra's_back]

The only ones of these he possesses are arguably  'pathological lying' and 'cunning/manipulative'. So... no.

 

You forgot:

 

2. Grandiose sense of self-worth

 

He believes that only he can save the world by destroying it. He stated, " I should be punished but the people need him". What he wants to do will make it worst. There was a huge imbalance in power in the fade. Flemeth stated that she was MOST powerful in the fade. That is why he needed the veil in the first place.

 

He killed Felassan instead of listening to him. Felassan was correct.

[Cobra's_back]

Felassan was not killed because of an invoked "You Haved Failed Me" trope. Felassan was killed, as Cole confirms, because Solas realised Felassan had grown fond of Briala to the point where Felassan would intentionally sabotage his own task:

 

Cole: "His friend had to die because he thought they were people. A slow arrow breaks in the sad wolf's jaw."

 

It is probable that Solas thought that Felassan would attempt to further sabotage Solas' efforts and since Felassan seemed to be implied to be an ancient elf with personal knowledge of Solas like his actual identity, Solas might have thought him a credible threat should that happen hence why he ended Felassan's life.

 

Well this is proof of his arrogance. Felassan was correct. The city elfs were people and growing stronger. He should have listened.

 

So I do think this fits him: "Grandiose sense of self-worth".

 

I found this:

 

" Psychopaths, on the other hand, are unable to form emotional attachments or feel real empathy with others, although they often have disarming or even charming personalities. Psychopaths are very manipulative and can easily gain people’s trust. They learn to mimic emotions, despite their inability to actually feel them, and will appear normal to unsuspecting people. Psychopaths are often well educated and hold steady jobs. Some are so good at manipulation and mimicry that they have families and other long-term relationships without those around them ever suspecting their true nature."

 

Don't know for sure. Consider the fact that he lies to others and himself. He can't say he is doing this for the people, because he doesn't listen to them. Felassan should not have died. Felassan was correct in his assessment. 

 

Considering Ancient Elves live for centuries, he could have been making small changes to help his people over time. In the end, this is nothing more then a selfish act.

[QueenCrow]

There are recent studies that suggest that empathy is something that allows a psychopath to be what they are. 

 

 

 

So psychopathic individuals do not simply lack empathy. Instead, it seems as though for most of us, empathy is the default mode. If we see a victim, we share her pain. For the psychopathic criminals of our study, empathy seemed to be a voluntary activity. If they want to, they can empathize, and that explains how they can be so charming, and maybe so manipulative. Once they have seduced you into doing what serves their purpose, the effortful empathy would though probably disappear again. Free of the constraints of empathy, they is then little to stop them from using violence.

https://www.psycholo...thic-not-always

 

Another psychological marker I noticed in the final scene of Trespasser was (and this is more to do with neuroses, narcissism, or not taking responsibility for one's actions) is psychological projection. 

 

Spoiler

Solas claims that the Evanuris had to be stopped, or they would have destroyed the world.  

[dragondreamer]

Remember that empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. Neither are psychosis and psychopathy.

 

But let’s try an analogy.

 

Subject X grows up in a beautiful mansion where he lives with his rich but dysfunctional family. There are two factions in his family, one of which abuses the other. This culminates in X’s sister being murdered. X’s response to this is to burn the family house down with everyone inside it. The abusers are killed, but the abused are all horrifically burned and severely disabled. Strangely, there is one person who escapes serious injury, and that is X himself.

 

In time, a new house is built where the old mansion once stood, and a new family moves in. X decides he wants the old house back, so he can move his surviving family back in. So he decides to burn down the new house, with the new family inside it. To be clear, his solution to the problem of having destroyed his whole family is to destroy another one.

 

Subject X doesn't escape injury, he's maimed as well.  He also goes into a coma for a few years.  When he wakes up, he finds his surviving family is still living in what remains of the house, but they're mostly disabled and being held in a torture dungeon by another new family.  When he tries to go to the police, he's told he's crazy, and no one will believe him.  He's faced with leaving his family behind and saving himself, or burning down the house to try to save what's left of his family, even if most of them will be killed, along with any innocents in the new family.  From his perspective, he will at best, save who he can, at worst, it's a mercy killing.  It isn't done coldly, but out of desperation and guilt for placing them in that situation to begin with.

 

No, it's not a good idea.  It's a terrible idea.  But he still isn't a psychopath. 

[Donk]

There are recent studies that suggest that empathy is something that allows a psychopath to be what they are. 

 

 

Another psychological marker I noticed in the final scene of Trespasser was (and this is more to do with neuroses, narcissism, or not taking responsibility for one's actions) is psychological projection. 

 

Spoiler

Solas claims that the Evanuris had to be stopped, or they would have destroyed the world.  

 

Yeah.. but empathy comes naturally. It shouldn't be an "effort".. it just is. A psychopath can probably sense when somebody is in a bad situation, and use that to achieve whatever end they want, faking it.

[QueenCrow]

Yeah.. but empathy comes naturally. It shouldn't be an "effort".. it just is. A psychopath can probably sense when somebody is in a bad situation, and use that to achieve whatever end they want, faking it.

 

Do you believe that's what Solas did, faked empathetic feelings in order to be manipulative?  Or do you think the empathy he seems to show is genuine and it just isn't enough to change his plans?

[the Dame]

Why, because you didn't get any?

Not enough or too much?

 

 

[Donk]

Do you believe that's what Solas did, faked empathetic feelings in order to be manipulative?  Or do you think the empathy he seems to show is genuine and it just isn't enough to change his plans?

 

I believe it was genuine. I say this, because I recall a cutscene where he says that the Inquisitor has surprised him, he's seen a wisdom in her that he never expected, and no matter what.. he respects her.

 

My opinion is this, and I hate to use it as a comparison but I really can't think of a better one: we have psychopaths, and we have extremist/zealots.. there is a large difference. Extremist/zealots are usually brainwashed, relate to whatever cause they are pushing for on some emotional level, and therefore will do whatever it takes to achieve that cause. And by that, I am referring to terrorists... People who believe that blowing themselves and other people up in a "sacrifice" and have convinced themselves it's the right thing.

 

I'm not comparing him to a terrorist.. it's more to do with the mindset. I don't condone what he's doing, but I find it interesting to find out the "why", what's driving him.. and there has got to be more to it. He clearly has knowledge that many people, including the Inquisitor and the rest of Thedas, do not. Whatever that knowledge is.. is driving him.

[Cobra's_back]

Most pre-18th European don't regard pagans or non-European people as human beings and won't shed a single tear when they enslave or mass-murdering them. Are they cruel? Yes. Are they insane? No. Same goes Solas.

 

Yes, every society did this. Muslim nations didn't get rid of slavery until the 1960s.

 

Now back to Solas. He will kill his own people. Felassan disagreed with his failed logic so Solas killed him. He makes flawed decisions, and doesn't listen to rational thinkers. 

 

 

 

His plan will kill elves as well. 

[Jaison1986]

You forgot:

 

2. Grandiose sense of self-worth

 

He believes that only he can save the world by destroying it. He stated, " I should be punished but the people need him". What he wants to do will make it worst. There was a huge imbalance in power in the fade. Flemeth stated that she was MOST powerful in the fade. That is why he needed the veil in the first place.

 

He killed Felassan instead of listening to him. Felassan was correct.

 

If he had an grandiose sense of self-worth, Solas would likely want to rule this new world he is shaping, but some dialogue in Trespasser seem to indicate that he fully intends to die once his job is done. Besides, even if he doesn't give up, Solas constantly beat himself up for it. I don't believe these traits would match with someone that think they are grand.

 

I think it's quite the double standard to criticize Solas for killing Felassan. Have people forgotten that Felassan was originally in full agreement with Solas doomsday plan? And that he only changed his mind about it once he befriended briala and started to see modern elves as people? And that the exact same thing happens with Solas if he becomes the Inquisitor friend. Only difference is that Solas hasn't given up... yet.

[rx00]

Yes, every society did this. Muslim nations didn't get rid of slavery until the 1960s.

 

Now back to Solas. He will kill his own people. Felassan disagreed with his failed logic so Solas killed him. He makes flawed decisions, and doesn't listen to rational thinkers. 

 

His plan will kill elves as well. 

He did state that modern elves aren't his people. If he is a 16th Spaniard, then to him Felassan is like a Native American who can speak Castilian. Oh you can speak civil tongue? Great then! Oh, you insist on stand in front of a native village and stopping me from using my God-given Her-Royal-Majesty-Proven right? Shame, (pull the trigger) a real shame. 

[ArianaGBSA]

Solas is, in a sense, a psychopath. But not when you analyze it from his point of view. Solas is as much as a psychopath to us as we are to other species. We kill an ant with no guilty at all, and what are we to Solas but ants? Solas is in fact a lot more emphatic to us than we are to ants.

I'm pretty sure that if ants managed to destroy human society and someone could kill all ants to restore mankind this person would do it.

We lack magic, fade consciouness, connection and so on. Solas himself said it was like everybody was a tranquil, we were not even people to him (in the beginning).
So well, I guess the "ant comparison" is fit.

For an immortal god with power beyond comparison he is a lot more "human" than YHWH, Zeus and Odin for instance (and than most of our greatest leaders in human history, including present ones, he is not dropping bombs on other countries just to prove his power and stuff).

[Kulyok]

He's an elitist times ten, and his mind about mass genocide is pretty made up. But Solas doesn't fit the list, no - he's much too empathic and clear-headed.

[Cobra's_back]

If he had an grandiose sense of self-worth, Solas would likely want to rule this new world he is shaping, but some dialogue in Trespasser seem to indicate that he fully intends to die once his job is done. Besides, even if he doesn't give up, Solas constantly beat himself up for it. I don't believe these traits would match with someone that think they are grand.

 

I think it's quite the double standard to criticize Solas for killing Felassan. Have people forgotten that Felassan was originally in full agreement with Solas doomsday plan? And that he only changed his mind about it once he befriended briala and started to see modern elves as people? And that the exact same thing happens with Solas if he becomes the Inquisitor friend. Only difference is that Solas hasn't given up... yet.

 

You don't kill someone who works for you because they disagree. That was Hilter's mistake, and the real reason Germany lost the war.

 

The fact that Felassan changed his mind after spending time with modern elves IS EXACTLY the reason NOT to kill Felassan. Felassan gives us excellent insight into what reality is.

 

Solas becomes your friend and lover while lying to you and plotting the destruction of your world. Remember his spies in your organization. I have a different requirement for friend and lover. It requires honesty and equal footing. He has decided your world needs to end whether you like it or not. 

[Cobra's_back]

He did state that modern elves aren't his people. If he is a 16th Spaniard, then to him Felassan is like a Native American who can speak Castilian. Oh you can speak civil tongue? Great then! Oh, you insist on stand in front of a native village and stopping me from using my God-given Her-Royal-Majesty-Proven right? Shame, (pull the trigger) a real shame. 

 

Okay, his people are who then? Spirits and Ancient Elves? 

 

What is he doing messing around with a modern elf? Slumming I guess?

[Renessa]

He did state that modern elves aren't his people. If he is a 16th Spaniard, then to him Felassan is like a Native American who can speak Castilian. Oh you can speak civil tongue? Great then! Oh, you insist on stand in front of a native village and stopping me from using my God-given Her-Royal-Majesty-Proven right? Shame, (pull the trigger) a real shame. 

 

Yes, he is deeply, deeply racist. He is also so driven (I think, guilt is driving him mad) to bringing back the Elvhen Empire, he does not care about the price anymore. Insofar I agree with others that he is more like a fanatical terrorist on a suicidal bombing mission than anything else.

[rx00]

Okay, his people are who then? Spirits and Ancient Elves? 

 

What is he doing messing around with a modern elf? Slumming I guess?

 

Ancient elves of course, there are still a few of them in ancient ruins or maybe in Fade. Spirits are more like his friends.

 

And if by "messing" you mean "use as pawns", well, convenient pawns are convenient pawns. You may call him a filthy liar, but that's far away for madness.

[Cobra's_back]

Ancient elves of course, there are still a few of them in ancient ruins or maybe in Fade. Spirits are more like his friends.

 

And if by "messing" you mean "use as pawns", well, convenient pawns are convenient pawns. You may call him a filthy liar, but that's far away for madness.

liar doesn't equal madness unless you are now lying to yourself. I think the guy is lying to himself as well. He assumes he can control what he could not before and makes these decisions in a vacuum.

 

How many sane leaders did that? 

[daveliam]

I scored him at an 8 using that list, so, nope.  Not psychopathic.