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Is Solas a psychopath?


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#101
Cobra's_back

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That Felassan never did while still in his moment of doubt or immediately after making his choice, doesn't preclude the fact he would be far more inclined to act afterwords if allowed to continue on his chosen path. Similarly, Solas has other agents who signed up presumably for a similar deal, allowing Felassan to go unpunished would undermine his leadership and invite further potential betrayals, it was practical and sensible from Solas' position. 

 

 

 

There is the main issue for disagreement. You see the guy as a threat. I don't at all. I see him as a source of information. He poses no immediate threat at all. I'm just Not going to agree that an open mined leader, who wants people to have free will, should kill  Felassan. If anything such a leader should try to listen to Felassan and understand his point of view. 

 

 

 

So you see the killing as necessary. I see a tyrant who wants to convince me he is not a tyrant. Solas killed him because Felassan didn't follow orders.

 

Your comment: COP-OUT.

 

That would be a NO. I'm willing to see Berelinde's point of view. Different cultures see things differently. Ancient Elves could have only known a totalitarian government. Their idea of free will could be completely constricting to others. 

 

As an open-minded leader, Felassan would have lived. As an Ancient Elf leader Felassan would have died for not serving his master.

 

So let's agree to disagree. You can kill Felassan.  I'll will listen to what Felassan has to say.


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#102
Hellion Rex

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Nah, he's just a elven supremacist that wants to kill every one that's non-elven.



#103
QueenCrow

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ghostbusters101:  I think you're onto something because you keep using a word that Patrick Weekes himself put into Masked Empire - logic.  As the story goes, Felassan seems to know logic, or debate, or even impassioned pleas aren't something one gets from the Dread Wolf.  The association in Masked Empire is devoid of logic, or passion (or empathy for emotional pleas), and there's no room for debate and Felassan forfeits his life for his free will.  That's how I read it.

 

Of course there's always room for interpretation, but your ideas have garnered my agreement via logical debate - something I insist upon as a person of free will and choice. :)

 

Here's the passage from Masked Empire for any who are interested in the interchange:

 

Spoiler


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#104
Darkstarr11

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Except he doesn't really have friends or loved ones.

Maybe I have a twisted sense of love and friendship but it doesn't involve killing them and destroying their world because I have a bad case of the guilt going on.

He's not the Dread Wolf for nothing , he is a lone wolf , Solas has no pack , never has one and doesn't want one.

I mean perish the thought , he can't stand people who don't listen to him or don't think everything he says is the truth.

 

In DAI if you say you respect Sera , or believes Dorian about the time travel , or you'll ask Varric and Cassandra opinions and not just his , or if you'll say you'll rely on your friends after the Well : dude disapproves.

 

To whom?  To the Inquisitor?  Remember, his system of values is so vastly differently from those that we would have that we can't say for absolute certain that 'yes, he's shuffled off to wacky land!'.  From his perspective, a being who has literally lived hundreds of our lifetimes, the lives of humans may be flash and gone.  His concept of time is potentially impossible to relate to.  Possibly.  I mean, if it was us...humans that is...and we woke up after a Van Winkle to find that humanity had gone from our current lifespan to living only a few short years, and had the cognitive power of a parakeet, we'd react poorly too.  To HIS perspective, he is saving his people.  A psychopath wouldn't care about that.  A psychopath DOES things, for their OWN pleasure, nothing else.  

 

We know from the Fade that his greatest fear is being alone.  Dying alone.  When you ask questions, he approves.  Interest is appreciated.  He craves interaction from others.  Outside of Cole, his only REAL friend is the Inquisitor if you put the effort into it.  As much as he talks up his friendships with spirits, he NEEDS a connection with a real person.  Hence his reactions.  Now, why he disapproves?  Jealousy maybe?  Friends GET jealous, though not all show it.  

 

Lone wolves tend to die much quicker than those in a pack.  Their life is far more difficult, and makes them easy targets.  Solas WANTS to belong.  

 

Solas DOESN'T want to kill people...he feels he HAS to.  Again, this is fanaticism.  It alters his perception of events, allowing him to step outside his normal understanding of norms and morals to act in a way that would normally be horrific and repellant.  Look at a mob mentality.  When individuals are in a group situation they can become incensed and act in a way contrary to their moral guidelines because they step outside themselves and allow the group mentality to take hold.  Riots, war crimes...many of these things were committed by individuals that would normally have NOTHING to do with those acts, but in the right setting, with the right prodding, they do something repugnant.  And that is with OUR current moral relativism.  Assuming that an individual of a different culture and race (not to mention time) would hold to our standards is unwise.  Solas will follow the guidelines that he has set in accomplishing his goal, no matter how unethical it seems because he feels the value of the end result is more important than his personal set of values.  

 

Now, having said that, it makes it NO LESS of an abominable act, and all efforts should be put forth to halt his plans.  Understanding that he is willing to set aside his own morals to restore his people to what he believes their rightful place is necessary if one wishes to stop him.  If you know how and WHY he does what he does, it could allow you to anticipate what he will do next.  Allow you to find a way to catch him off guard, and show him WHY his rationalization is incorrect.

 

...or lop off his head when he is distracted.  Whichever you are looking for.  Point is, the more information you have, and how you are able to understand that information is key in understanding your enemy.  You understand them, you can beat them.  

 

Diplomacy...saying 'nice doggie, nice doggie' until you can grab a big stick.  And this is a BIG POWERFUL doggie.


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#105
Cobra's_back

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ghostbusters101:  I think you're onto something because you keep using a word that Patrick Weekes himself put into Masked Empire - logic.  As the story goes, Felassan seems to know logic, or debate, or even impassioned pleas aren't something one gets from the Dread Wolf.  The association in Masked Empire is devoid of logic, or passion (or empathy for emotional pleas), and there's no room for debate and Felassan forfeits his life for his free will.  That's how I read it.

 

Of course there's always room for interpretation, but your ideas have garnered my agreement via logical debate - something I insist upon as a person of free will and choice. :)

 

Here's the passage from Masked Empire for any who are interested in the interchange:

 

Spoiler

 

Thanks for the quote. I remember when I read that book I thought Felassan was a slave. I can just imagine what a horrible place this Ancient Elven world was. A few powerful mages ruling over all others. These others were their obedient slaves and victims of their twisted games. The others went too far and he finally decided to lock them away. That would explain why he still treats his servants as slaves. 


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#106
Wren

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No, because Psychopaths are a lot like monsters and enjoy hurting people.  Cole, would have tried to kill Solas long ago (or not follwed the Inquisition) if Solas were a psychopath or evil since that would imply that he "hurts people".  We have to assume that Cole could read Solas's mind the whole time and knew exactly what he was planning.



#107
Reznore57

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No, because Psychopaths are a lot like monsters and enjoy hurting people.  Cole, would have tried to kill Solas long ago (or not follwed the Inquisition) if Solas were a psychopath or evil since that would imply that he "hurts people".  We have to assume that Cole could read Solas's mind the whole time and knew exactly what he was planning.

 

Yes well Cole should have shank him but since both character are written by the same person , and there's an obvious agenda behind Solas...this doesn't happen.

The whole thing is Solas wants to do worse than Cory (Cory didn't want to let the world burn in raw chaos while rebuilding Tevinter )but since they made some effort in DAI to show Solas as wise , caring etc...people ends up with poo in their eyes and think it's ok to kill thousand and thousand of people if you whine and say you're sorry about it.


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#108
Uirebhiril

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Yes well Cole should have shank him but since both character are written by the same person , and there's an obvious agenda behind Solas...this doesn't happen.

The whole thing is Solas wants to do worse than Cory (Cory didn't want to let the world burn in raw chaos while rebuilding Tevinter )but since they made some effort in DAI to show Solas as wise , caring etc...people ends up with poo in their eyes and think it's ok to kill thousand and thousand of people if you whine and say you're sorry about it.

 

There's an obvious story behind Solas. The whole of the Dragon Age game franchise was based at least in part around him and his past and what happened. It's entirely possible for people to appreciate an antagonist and be excited for future chapters of that story. Why else are we all playing these games for? If things didn't happen and people didn't make bad choices or cause problems, there would be no conflict that your new hero has to solve and overcome. That they can take a character and make him a sympathetic individual does not mean people who like that character are idiots or are okay with mass murder. People really need to learn to separate these things from the other.


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#109
Reznore57

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There's an obvious story behind Solas. The whole of the Dragon Age game franchise was based at least in part around him and his past and what happened. It's entirely possible for people to appreciate an antagonist and be excited for future chapters of that story. Why else are we all playing these games for? If things didn't happen and people didn't make bad choices or cause problems, there would be no conflict that your new hero has to solve and overcome. That they can take a character and make him a sympathetic individual does not mean people who like that character are idiots or are okay with mass murder. People really need to learn to separate these things from the other.

 

I have a problem when you end up with people saying someone who will kill thousand and thousand of people is not "evil" because the writer build him up with some charisma and the tiniest sadest violin sound playing in the background.


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#110
Uirebhiril

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I have a problem when you end up with people saying someone who will kill thousand and thousand of people is not "evil" because the writer build him up with some charisma and the tiniest sadest violin sound playing in the background.

 

Some people pick up on nuance and narrative a bit easier than others. No shame and no fault either way.



#111
fizzypop

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I have a problem when you end up with people saying someone who will kill thousand and thousand of people is not "evil" because the writer build him up with some charisma and the tiniest sadest violin sound playing in the background.

Evil like good is a subjective moral value. War for instance will always lead to deaths of the innocent. So who determines who is evil when thousands die in war? The respective sides will both believe they are morally right or just. Evil is merely a concept. I mean we see this in DAO. Depending on what side you are on someone can see Loghain's actions as justifiable and others see it as monstrous. It is no different here. There are several ways to paint Solas. I happen to think he's delusional and his actions prove he isn't capable of reasonable thought at this moment. He does have some remorse it makes me suspect that even he knows what he is doing is wrong. So is he evil? Maybe. Maybe not too. We don't have all the answers and as much as Solas likes to believe he does, he doesn't either. I would not be surprised if they try to redeem him in some way.


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#112
Wren

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I have a problem when you end up with people saying someone who will kill thousand and thousand of people is not "evil" because the writer build him up with some charisma and the tiniest sadest violin sound playing in the background

Good writing happens when the bad guy just doesn't tell you his whole plan at the end like in a Scooby-Doo cartoon and the reader (or player, in this case) has to consider the subtext of the story for themselves and make their own minds up about what's happening.

DA is far too intelligent a game world for me to believe that they were just going to pull a Scooby-Doo ending with Solas and leave it at that.  The truth, in my opinion, is in the subtext, which doesn't exactly seem to be hinting at genocide.



#113
Reznore57

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Good writing happens when the bad guy just doesn't tell you his whole plan at the end like in a Scooby-Doo cartoon and the reader (or player, in this case) has to consider the subtext of the story for themselves and make their own minds up about what's happening.

DA is far too intelligent a game world for me to believe that they were just going to pull a Scooby-Doo ending with Solas and leave it at that.  The truth, in my opinion, is in the subtext, which doesn't exactly seem to be hinting at genocide.

 

He tells you his plan.

He's going to tear the veil down and while Thedas burn in raw chaos he's going to bring back the time of the elves.

You can ask him why does this world has to die?And he won't answer.

He tells the Inquisitor he's going to kill him/her ."Enjoy blabla...while time remains." "I saved you...for now."

If you're an elf and you say you're willing to join him and die for the cause , he replies you'd have to watch all your loved ones die too.

 

He's saying he's going to kill you and everything you love and then goes "I'm not a monster."



#114
FALCONGTX

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He is - as much as anyone who tries (re)build country for his people on bones of another ones - roughly speaking he is Hitler of Thedas.



#115
ESTAQ99

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Mmhm. The inquisitor is like a nug. Hoping around the place and cleaning up scum. See? I can make nonsensical comparisons too!

 

I don't think your comparison was a nonsensical one at all since what you described, it's exactly what the inquisitor was doing for about 70% to 80% of the game. LOL



#116
Darkstarr11

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He tells you his plan.

He's going to tear the veil down and while Thedas burn in raw chaos he's going to bring back the time of the elves.

You can ask him why does this world has to die?And he won't answer.

He tells the Inquisitor he's going to kill him/her ."Enjoy blabla...while time remains." "I saved you...for now."

If you're an elf and you say you're willing to join him and die for the cause , he replies you'd have to watch all your loved ones die too.

 

He's saying he's going to kill you and everything you love and then goes "I'm not a monster."

 

He tells you the bare bones.  Not what it entails.  He doesn't because he knows you aren't a fool, and could unravel his scheme.  

 

How?  That is the burning question.  How?  How will he tear down the Veil?  What resources does he need?  How much time?  Where must it be done?  

 

OF COURSE he won't answer.  No matter what answer he gives, he is basically telling you that he is dooming you to a horrific death and why gives away what he is about to do.  Why take the chance that you will figure it out?  

 

If you are an elf, he won't let you because what he is doing IS horrible.  Why would he share the blame for what he is going to do?  Lets say that to save your home country, you HAVE to wipe out another.  You LOVE your country.  You sacrificed for it.  You bled.  OTHERS bled for it.  Now, in order to revive it, because YOU yourself made a mistake, ANOTHER country has to go.  It is the ONLY way to save them.  When you are done, you will be REVILED as histories GREATEST monster.  Do you include your best friend in that?  Do you let them join you?  OR...OR do you take the blame yourself?  Do you, as a patriot, sacrifice yourself for the greater good of your people?  Do you, KNOWING you will be condemned ad hated FOREVER...along with ANYONE you associated with, let someone else share your burden?  Remember the city elf origin?  Remember that you could sell out your cousin to the noble first?  And then afterwards you could sell out your OTHER cousin?  Yeah...OR...some of us, took the blame all on our own.  SOME decided that they would suck it up, take the hit, and spare the people they loved for the greater good of the community.

 

Solas is thinking along those lines...but his scale is beyond measure.  If they are an elf, he DOESN'T want them going down with him.  Better to let them oppose him, let THEM be seen as a hero, or possibly forgotten, than shamed like he WILL be.  No matter what happens, Solas is NOT going to win.  He is NOT going to sit on a golden throne, and be lauded with praise and adulation.  His journey will end in death, including his own.  

 

So no, he isn't a monster...

 

...YET.


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#117
phishface

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This has become very interesting. We’ve moved beyond the minutiae of psychiatric diagnosis into the definition of evil.

 

And people’s reactions in this thread have been fascinating. It is reminiscent of the viewpoint of the friends and families of dictators. Unlike the dictator’s victims, the family sees the person, and therefore they judge him differently.

 

This article is simplistic, but it makes the point well enough. People who do horrific things can nevertheless show kindness and sensitivity. They can make great husbands, fathers and friends. Their original motivations can seem good and noble.

 

The victims do not share this perspective. Neither does history. They are not interested in whether the dictator was kind to his dogs, or a sensitive lover, or that he had noble intentions. They do not care that the tyrant agonized over whether he was doing the right thing. They only care about the millions of deaths. And they are right.

 

Solas is responsible for one genocide, and is planning another. He has dissembled, manipulated and murdered. His story can be seen as a long con with a view to mass slaughter. What is so clever is that Bioware created this complex, attractive and sympathetic character, and gave us a time and cause to grow to like and respect (and even love) him. Then they revealed him to be monstrous. It is testament to the quality (and audacity) of the writing.


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#118
Wren

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This has become very interesting. We’ve moved beyond the minutiae of psychiatric diagnosis into the definition of evil.

 

And people’s reactions in this thread have been fascinating. It is reminiscent of the viewpoint of the friends and families of dictators. Unlike the dictator’s victims, the family sees the person, and therefore they judge him differently.

 

This article is simplistic, but it makes the point well enough. People who do horrific things can nevertheless show kindness and sensitivity. They can make great husbands, fathers and friends. Their original motivations can seem good and noble.

 

The victims do not share this perspective. Neither does history. They are not interested in whether the dictator was kind to his dogs, or a sensitive lover, or that he had noble intentions. They do not care that the tyrant agonized over whether he was doing the right thing. They only care about the millions of deaths. And they are right.

 

Solas is responsible for one genocide, and is planning another. He has dissembled, manipulated and murdered. His story can be seen as a long con with a view to mass slaughter. What is so clever is that Bioware created this complex, attractive and sympathetic character, and gave us a time and cause to grow to like and respect (and even love) him. Then they revealed him to be monstrous. It is testament to the quality (and audacity) of the writing.

what genocide prior is he responsible for?  The elves survived, they just kind of became... more human.



#119
ESTAQ99

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what genocide prior is he responsible for?  The elves survived, they just kind of became... more human.

 

I think you misunderstand what a genocide means. The holocaust in nazi Germany was a genocide and there still were many gypsies, homosexuals and jews who survived. There was a cruel genocide committed against Armenians and there still millions of Armenian people today.

 

Solas was the primary cause of  the horrible genocide committed against elves when his actions, 1,000 years ago, deprived them from their original magic powers and left them defenseless and at the mercy of people like the Tevinter mages who killed millions just to augment their magical powers to the point that cities like Kirkwall had rivers of blood running through what is now known as Darktown as it's stated in The Enigma of Kirkwall. So yes, he is directly responsible for the previous and still ongoing genocide of his own people. Yet he is now planning not even a greater scale genocide but the utter destruction of anyone who is not an elf. Nice fellow this psycho.


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#120
Wren

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I think you misunderstand what a genocide means. The holocaust in nazi Germany was a genocide and there still were many gypsies, homosexuals and jews who survived. There was a cruel genocide committed against Armenians and there still millions of Armenian people today.

 

Solas was the primary cause of  the horrible genocide committed against elves when his actions, 1,000 years ago, deprived them from their original magic powers and left them defenseless and at the mercy of people like the Tevinter mages who killed millions just to augment their magical powers to the point that cities like Kirkwall had rivers of blood running through what is now known as Darktown as it's stated in The Enigma of Kirkwall. So yes, he is directly responsible for the previous and still ongoing genocide of his own people. Yet he is now planning not even a greater scale genocide but the utter destruction of anyone who is not an elf. Nice fellow this psycho.

By that logic then, the genocide of the jews in Europe was caused by the unification of Germany in 1871 and not by Hitler himself.  While that may be-- sort of true-- I think history still pretty much blames Hitler for the holocaust rather than Wilhelm I of Prussia. 



#121
elitefennec

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I scored him at 7 I don't see how somebody who shows that level of remorse and compassion could ever be psychopathic. If you met him and the end and he acted differently as a very clichéd villain, pleased about the fact that he'd fooled you it would possibly be a different story but be very predictable and make him less of an intriguing character.
He doesn't what to kill everyone just for being non-elven if there was a way he could restore elvenhan without killing other races he would definitely take it. It is a very unfortunate and destructive side effect.
 
I know there's a direct link because many see what Solas wants to do as genocide but has this thread not followed Godwin's Law?

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#122
elitefennec

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This has become very interesting. We’ve moved beyond the minutiae of psychiatric diagnosis into the definition of evil.

 

And people’s reactions in this thread have been fascinating. It is reminiscent of the viewpoint of the friends and families of dictators. Unlike the dictator’s victims, the family sees the person, and therefore they judge him differently.

 

This article is simplistic, but it makes the point well enough. People who do horrific things can nevertheless show kindness and sensitivity. They can make great husbands, fathers and friends. Their original motivations can seem good and noble.

 

The victims do not share this perspective. Neither does history. They are not interested in whether the dictator was kind to his dogs, or a sensitive lover, or that he had noble intentions. They do not care that the tyrant agonized over whether he was doing the right thing. They only care about the millions of deaths. And they are right.

 

Solas is responsible for one genocide, and is planning another. He has dissembled, manipulated and murdered. His story can be seen as a long con with a view to mass slaughter. What is so clever is that Bioware created this complex, attractive and sympathetic character, and gave us a time and cause to grow to like and respect (and even love) him. Then they revealed him to be monstrous. It is testament to the quality (and audacity) of the writing.

 

I don't think the fact that we know the character makes a difference. If you were to evaluate them as an outsider you would probably get the same low score.
 
It states that the dictators in that article has chosen to ignore their conscience. Solas hasn't done this. You get the sense that he could still be persuaded otherwise especially with an inquisitor with high approval/romance.
Of course people who are responsible for great atrocities have also done things deemed good or sensitive in their lives aswell nobody has ever lived solely committing evil acts.



#123
QueenCrow

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This has become very interesting. We’ve moved beyond the minutiae of psychiatric diagnosis into the definition of evil.

 

And people’s reactions in this thread have been fascinating. It is reminiscent of the viewpoint of the friends and families of dictators. Unlike the dictator’s victims, the family sees the person, and therefore they judge him differently.

 

This article is simplistic, but it makes the point well enough. People who do horrific things can nevertheless show kindness and sensitivity. They can make great husbands, fathers and friends. Their original motivations can seem good and noble.

 

The victims do not share this perspective. Neither does history. They are not interested in whether the dictator was kind to his dogs, or a sensitive lover, or that he had noble intentions. They do not care that the tyrant agonized over whether he was doing the right thing. They only care about the millions of deaths. And they are right.

 

Solas is responsible for one genocide, and is planning another. He has dissembled, manipulated and murdered. His story can be seen as a long con with a view to mass slaughter. What is so clever is that Bioware created this complex, attractive and sympathetic character, and gave us a time and cause to grow to like and respect (and even love) him. Then they revealed him to be monstrous. It is testament to the quality (and audacity) of the writing.

 

Awesome commentary, phishface, truly and sincerely.

 

It’s imperative that you’ve clarified the definition of psychopath by illustrating that even the most famous psychopaths have friends, lovers, family, hundreds, hundreds of thousands, or millions of people who follow them begrudgingly, willingly, or even enthusiastically.  It outlines one facet of psychopathic personalities, that they can be very charming, manipulative, and intensely calculating.  Scientists and journalists consider psychopaths perilous interviews because of these qualities – they claim that they can spend several hours with a psychopath and come away feeling hypnotized.

 

And I think you’re right on about the cleverness of Bioware creating a complex, attractive, and sympathetic character to hypnotize us and/or victimize the player.  We have people who will not condemn Solas and we also have various threads over this forum in particular expressing the dissatisfaction of the people who came away from the Trespasser DLC feeling victimized.  Both viewpoints you’ve mentioned are represented here.  I agree that it is a testament to the quality of the writing.  I’ve bumped into a noticeably large cross-section of writers interested in creating just such characters – the psychopath or sociopath who is capable of making the reader love him, or at least walk away hypnotized, despite the psychopath’s insistence that the world and people in it are his for the taking.

 

I am most eager to see the result of the audacity of this kind of writing in Dragon Age.  Thus far, I’ve only been witness to the negative results that inevitably happen when real people are asked to play the victim to a writer’s character – something that would not necessarily happen in a book written by a single person in which the reader is simply witness, but will undoubtedly happen in any role playing situation, or an rpg game in which the writer designs endings in which the villain leaves all protagonists with either stunned feeling of a husband/wife, child, friend or leaves with a victim’s tunnel vision of millions of deaths.

 

Thank you for the excellent perspective!


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#124
CoM Solaufein

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He's not a psychopath, just misunderstood. He wants to see his people returned to the glory that they used to have. Just a few sacrifices have to be made to see it through.



#125
Cyrus Amell

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He knows what he wants, he knows how to get it, and he has the ability to do it. 

 

He isn't a psychopath so much as a sad old man with the powers of a demi-god and a perverted view of the world. Also does not like tea.


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