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Without the Anchor...the Inquisitor is not that special...


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#226
DeLaatsteGeitenneuker

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I don't think Bioware is so dumb that it won't realize that most of this clamoring about getting the inquisitor as the protagonist for the next DA instalment comes from girls who played as an elf and went the way of romancing Baldy. I'm not even trying to do an statistic research and I can easily figure it out from the avatars, past posts and arguments that all the loud "I want my inqui back" comes from shattered fan girls fiction. The arguments used to explain why the inquisitor should be kept as a protagonist for a possible next DA game are weak, at best and all them rotate around Baldy is so important for Inqui, like if that was the general opinion when for many (just check hundreds of posts on these threads), the inquisitor was rather a bland and boring protagonist who certainly suffer from lack of personality. Having taken half arm from the guy/girl along with the only thing that made him/her special doesn't help to improve his/her appealing as a prospective protagonist. Just let him/her go and be happy with a possible secondary role (or supportive role)  if any in the next DA game.

Actually I think the Solas romance is not that popular. The number of Cullen fan girls by way of comparison is legion.



#227
CoM Solaufein

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Think Sera fanboys/girls is quite high.



#228
midnight tea

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Actually I think the Solas romance is not that popular. The number of Cullen fan girls by way of comparison is legion

 

It's hard to say anything about numbers in any objective fashion, but I did hear many X-mancers say that after Trespasser they have hard time romancing anyone but Solas now, or that it became the pairing they root for the most - which I'm entirely not surprised by. While every Inquisitor has personal stakes when dealing with Solas (revenge for betrayal, intent to stop him by any means from destroying the world and Inky's friends, saving him from himself) it's hard to think of anything that has a bigger emotional punch than the tale of star-crossed lovers.


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#229
robertthebard

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I've written quite a lot on the subject, as have others. If you haven't seen the arguments, I'd be surprised. Just read this thread if you're curious. The short version is that we think it would be a waste of a perfectly good narrative and hero/villain relationship not to have the Inquisitor confront Solas, and given that, we think being able to control them (whether there is another protagonist or not) is necessary.
 
Bottom line is, we have provided arguments based on (admittedly, subjective) views on what constitutes a good narrative and good storytelling, just as our opponents have listed arguments. As I said before, the only reason I said what I did to that specific poster was because they didn't even try to make an argument. Why are you so fervently defending that?
 
What? You think I only want them to return because of my romantic involvement with Solas? You keep showing that you haven't read my posts. Here, from the last page:
Bolded some stuff for you.


So, remind me again, what does "subjective" mean? I was under the impression that it was how one feels about something? So what you're saying here boils down to "you can't say that we want it to happen because we feel like it should, it should happen because we feel like it should". The problem isn't me not understanding what's being presented, the problem is that I understand it all too well. People want it to happen because they feel like it should. We already have an example, in this series, where we see that the Protagonist to discover the problem doesn't have to be the protagonist to solve it. So how does this have to be any different? Because you want it to be, and that's really the only reason. You listed off some rationalizations, but they all come back to "I feel like it would be xxxx".

I can carry this farther: How many threads insisted that the OGB was going to be the Inquisitor, or that the Warden should be the Inquisitor, despite knowing it wasn't going to happen.
 

You're really bad at reading my posts. I admitted that it's possible a very small number of people could have that (absurd) viewpoint. I'm not in denial about anything. Although I will say that I haven't seen anyone make an argument similar to that. I don't see the similarity between "bring back X protagonist" threads and discussing whether Bioware should have reused a hug animation. Why are you so interested in my tangential comment about hugs anyway?


Don't think this was aimed at me.

#230
BansheeOwnage

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So, remind me again, what does "subjective" mean? I was under the impression that it was how one feels about something? So what you're saying here boils down to "you can't say that we want it to happen because we feel like it should, it should happen because we feel like it should". The problem isn't me not understanding what's being presented, the problem is that I understand it all too well. People want it to happen because they feel like it should. We already have an example, in this series, where we see that the Protagonist to discover the problem doesn't have to be the protagonist to solve it. So how does this have to be any different? Because you want it to be, and that's really the only reason. You listed off some rationalizations, but they all come back to "I feel like it would be xxxx".

I can carry this farther: How many threads insisted that the OGB was going to be the Inquisitor, or that the Warden should be the Inquisitor, despite knowing it wasn't going to happen.

You missed my point entirely. I admitted this was a subjective debate, I only said that coming into the debate with nothing to back your opinion up is pointless, and I wanted a specific poster (who wasn't even you) to explain why they thought something was stupid instead of just saying it was. My post wasn't even about which side I think is right.
 

 

Don't think this was aimed at me.

It was, since I was responding to your post...

 

Basically, you need to sort out your priorities. This whole ridiculous exchange only came up because you thought that me saying:

 

1. If you're going to argue, at least try to make an argument instead of declaring something shouldn't happen because you don't think like it.

2. I wish they reused a hug animation.

 

...needed to be criticized for some reason. I thought my comments were pretty straightforward and not something I thought anyone would really respond to. Can we move on?


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#231
robertthebard

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You missed my point entirely. I admitted this was a subjective debate, I only said that coming into the debate with nothing to back your opinion up is pointless, and I wanted a specific poster (who wasn't even you) to explain why they thought something was stupid instead of just saying it was. My post wasn't even about which side I think is right.


So now I'm even more confused, your reply isn't directed to me, yet you quoted me to make a point to someone else, and then you follow that up with this:
 

It was, since I was responding to your post...
 
Basically, you need to sort out your priorities. This whole ridiculous exchange only came up because you thought that me saying:
 
1. If you're going to argue, at least try to make an argument instead of declaring something shouldn't happen because you don't think like it.
2. I wish they reused a hug animation.
 
...needed to be criticized for some reason. I thought my comments were pretty straightforward and not something I thought anyone would really respond to. Can we move on?


However, I did bring something to the discussion: I brought the experience of the past two games, and the experience of watching the forums blow up with "my pet protagonist from this game should be the protagonist for the next game/entire series", and the flak that DA II took for reused resources. Oddly enough, that's exactly where this thread fits in, barring the latter. It's not my issue that you took my tongue in cheek response about the nature of the BSN as some kind of personal assault against you, or your ideas about how they should have done something in the game. That's totally on you, especially since this is the third time that I've pointed out that my response was tongue in cheek. This leaves me believing that you don't know what the expression means, and that if something that simple is so far beyond you, then really, how can I expect that anything more abstract isn't?

Trespasser wasn't out 24 hours and there were two threads similar to this one on the first page. This is where I'm coming from: All this fuss about "but my protag's story isn't done, they need to come back next time" hasn't worked, and likely isn't going to, since we've been told otherwise. Of course, I've made this point clear a few times too, in various threads over the course of the origin of Warden Tuesday to the present: They should have killed off any PCs they weren't planning to have play an important role. No options, and they had the perfect set up in Trespasser: Poof, statue, or death to the Mark. Ironically, from my own experience on the BSN, that wouldn't have worked either.

#232
Sah291

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Full disclosure, I did romance Solas and I do like the romance content. I want to see the Quizzy back... But I've always had a preference for reoccurring protagonists and was disappointed when we didn't get Hawke back for DAI. In fact, that was one of my main complaints with the base game--the protagonist's relationship with the villian (or lack thereof).

It seemed kind of obvious to me that Cory was originally concieved as an adversary for Hawke, and that Hawke was the one with the personal connection and backstory with him. Also the main highlight of DA2 for me was always the rivalry between Hawke and the Arishok. Defeating Cory just didn't have the same kind of punch, due to the lack of character development between them. Solas vs. Inquisitor has that, romance or not....the romance was just added drama, icing on the cake, IMO.

To be fair, I cut the devs some slack, since I know they did intend to continue Hawke's story orginally, but couldn't. Revealing Solas as an antagonist and getting to play opposite dread wolf made up for that, and gave me a reason to become invested in the Inquisitor as a character. But if they go with a new PC again, I'm going to feel the same frustration all over again like I did with Cory. Especially if there are any reoccurring companions and NPCs from DAI.
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#233
Reznore57

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I never romanced Solas , after Trespasser this is never going to happen anyway now that I have strong feelings and want to strangle him.

But I totally want my Inquisitor to face him and stop him now.

I'm replaying DAI and had the post Haven talk with Dorian where he explains he has to stop Corypheus , because Cory was a magister and some people from Tevinter are following him and wants to bring back the past and decadence of the glory days.

My Inqui is an elf , so now the tables turned .

He's in the same position as Dorian except it's even more personal because Solas was a friend.

 

Besides now my Inqui is a Red Jenny ...

So really the DA devs stopped the adventure when it was really getting fun.

I'd never like the Inquisition or being the Chosen One , too big too serious .

Now I picture my Inqui starting a Red Jenny in Tevinter as a cover .Causing mayhen , helping Dorian ...while having a secret order chasing after Solas.

It has the potential of DA2, the band of misfits stumbling on stuff , with DAI where there is a secret goal and a serious organisation with a personal nemisis.

 

Of course not every Inquisitor joins the Red Jenny or would want to cause mayhem in Tevinter...

So bye Inquisitor I suppose , I'll have fun with headcanon for the years to come and having every fingers crossed you won't get butchered in DA4.



#234
DeLaatsteGeitenneuker

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Full disclosure, I did romance Solas and I do like the romance content. I want to see the Quizzy back... But I've always had a preference for reoccurring protagonists and was disappointed when we didn't get Hawke back for DAI. In fact, that was one of my main complaints with the base game--the protagonist's relationship with the villian (or lack thereof).

It seemed kind of obvious to me that Cory was originally concieved as an adversary for Hawke, and that Hawke was the one with the personal connection and backstory with him. Also the main highlight of DA2 for me was always the rivalry between Hawke and the Arishok. Defeating Cory just didn't have the same kind of punch, due to the lack of character development between them. Solas vs. Inquisitor has that, romance or not....the romance was just added drama, icing on the cake, IMO.

To be fair, I cut the devs some slack, since I know they did intend to continue Hawke's story orginally, but couldn't. Revealing Solas as an antagonist and getting to play opposite dread wolf made up for that, and gave me a reason to become invested in the Inquisitor as a character. But if they go with a new PC again, I'm going to feel the same frustration all over again like I did with Cory. Especially if there are any reoccurring companions and NPCs from DAI.

The Inquisitor is almost certainly not coming back. People need to accept that.



#235
Reznore57

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The Inquisitor is almost certainly not coming back. People need to accept that.

 

Oh the Inquisitor is coming back , the only question is Npc or Pc.

With the hand chopped off , probably Npc ...although there is two easter eggs about getting a prosthesis in Trespasser.( one funny text about buying an animated backscratcher made in silverite and the iron hand in the Qunari fort)

The devs might just be trolling though.



#236
Sah291

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The Inquisitor is almost certainly not coming back. People need to accept that.


I did accept it...twice now, when they moved on from the Warden, and then Hawke. I'm just stating my issue with the new PC approach. I'm fine with an all new cast, but I'd prefer a new/different story arc and main villian to go along with it, if that is the case, for the sake of character develoment.

#237
robertthebard

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I did accept it...twice now, when they moved on from the Warden, and then Hawke. I'm just stating my issue with the new PC approach. I'm fine with an all new cast, but I'd prefer a new/different story arc and main villian to go along with it, if that is the case, for the sake of character develoment.


So they can't have a cliffhanger ending if it doesn't involve your Inquisitor? The cliffhanger doesn't just concern your Inquisitor, just like the cliffhanger at the end of Legacy didn't just involve Hawke. It's a set up for future content, whether it's the next game, or a later one. By the time Solas gets all his ducks in a row, all of the characters that we have met in the DA series could be dead of natural causes. Should they invent suspended animation, just to make sure you get your Inquisitor back for that tale?

#238
Sah291

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So they can't have a cliffhanger ending if it doesn't involve your Inquisitor? The cliffhanger doesn't just concern your Inquisitor, just like the cliffhanger at the end of Legacy didn't just involve Hawke. It's a set up for future content, whether it's the next game, or a later one. By the time Solas gets all his ducks in a row, all of the characters that we have met in the DA series could be dead of natural causes. Should they invent suspended animation, just to make sure you get your Inquisitor back for that tale?


No, they should do what they want and make the story they like. But yes, I do enjoy the continuity and character development much more with a reoccurring protagonist, as I said. I'm not suggesting they should twist or torture a plot line just to bring a character back if it makes no sense. I don't think it make ~no sense~ for the Inquisitor, though.
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#239
robertthebard

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No, they should do what they want and make the story they like. But yes, I do enjoy the continuity and character development much more with a reoccurring protagonist, as I said. I'm not suggesting they should twist or torture a plot line just to bring a character back if it makes no sense. I don't think it make ~no sense~ for the Inquisitor, though.


They went out of their way to explain to us why the Inquisitor wouldn't be back: While the first step isn't really all that limiting, they did take their arm, and then there's dialog at the end where they state they can't be the ones to go after him, because he knows how they work, and they'll have to find other people. So yes, they'd have to twist the story they told us out of proportion to bring the Inquisitor back. It would require functional amnesia on Solas' part, since he'd have to forget how you operate, despite being with you all the way through the main game of Inquisition, otherwise, his spies would have all the information he'd need to beat you right after the prologue.

#240
Sah291

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They went out of their way to explain to us why the Inquisitor wouldn't be back: While the first step isn't really all that limiting, they did take their arm, and then there's dialog at the end where they state they can't be the ones to go after him, because he knows how they work, and they'll have to find other people. So yes, they'd have to twist the story they told us out of proportion to bring the Inquisitor back. It would require functional amnesia on Solas' part, since he'd have to forget how you operate, despite being with you all the way through the main game of Inquisition, otherwise, his spies would have all the information he'd need to beat you right after the prologue.


Did they say that (in an interview/tweet, etc)? Or is that just your interpretation of the ending? I'm not saying you are wrong. I do think they are likely to go with a new PC, since that has been the trend with DA. But I don't see how that necessarily has to be the case, or how the story demands it. The dialogue about getting new people could be an excuse to change setting and find a new team, ME2 style. Do you really want to play as your former character's underling? Or would you rather just play as your character, if they are continuing their plot line anyway. Maybe the IQ comes back as an NPC like Hawke did, we'll see. But that comes with its own set of potential problems. Like upstaging the current PC, etc.
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#241
loyallyroyal

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They went out of their way to explain to us why the Inquisitor wouldn't be back: While the first step isn't really all that limiting, they did take their arm, and then there's dialog at the end where they state they can't be the ones to go after him, because he knows how they work, and they'll have to find other people.

 

I took that to explain why the old party won't be coming back and why we would have all new party members. The only party member I could see coming back is Dorian, the rest are busy or can possibly be dead. In terms of Solas knowing the inquisitor, remember a leash can be pulled from both ends.



#242
robertthebard

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Did they say that (in an interview/tweet, etc)? Or is that just your interpretation of the ending? I'm not saying you are wrong. I do think they are likely to go with a new PC, since that has been the trend with DA. But I don't see how that necessarily has to be the case, or how the story demands it. The dialogue about getting new people could be an excuse to change setting and find a new team, ME2 style. Do you really want to play as your former character's underling? Or would you rather just play as your character, if they are continuing their plot line anyway. Maybe the IQ comes back as an NPC like Hawke did, we'll see. But that comes with its own set of potential problems. Like upstaging the current PC, etc.


You know, I'm really struggling with the mental gymnastics required to go from "We can't be the ones to fight him, he knows how we operate" to "We can take him, just put us in the next game".

#243
Illegitimus

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Full disclosure, I did romance Solas and I do like the romance content. I want to see the Quizzy back... But I've always had a preference for reoccurring protagonists and was disappointed when we didn't get Hawke back for DAI. In fact, that was one of my main complaints with the base game--the protagonist's relationship with the villian (or lack thereof).
 

 

I'm kind of disappointed that there are no "Hawke is the Inquisitor" fanfic.  



#244
Poledo

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I don't think Bioware is so dumb that it won't realize that most of this clamoring about getting the inquisitor as the protagonist for the next DA instalment comes from girls who played as an elf and went the way of romancing Baldy. I'm not even trying to do an statistic research and I can easily figure it out from the avatars, past posts and arguments that all the loud "I want my inqui back" comes from shattered fan girls fiction. The arguments used to explain why the inquisitor should be kept as a protagonist for a possible next DA game are weak, at best and all them rotate around Baldy is so important for Inqui, like if that was the general opinion when for many (just check hundreds of posts on these threads), the inquisitor was rather a bland and boring protagonist who certainly suffer from lack of personality. Having taken half arm from the guy/girl along with the only thing that made him/her special doesn't help to improve his/her appealing as a prospective protagonist. Just let him/her go and be happy with a possible secondary role (or supportive role)  if any in the next DA game.

 

My Saarebas Inky swore to Solas he would kill him himself. He disbanded the inquisition and swore that he would save the world once again, and although he had no mic to drop, he dropped the inquisition book and walked out. This is the showdown I want to see.


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#245
Sah291

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You know, I'm really struggling with the mental gymnastics required to go from "We can't be the ones to fight him, he knows how we operate" to "We can take him, just put us in the next game".


I didn't say that though. It just comes across open ended enough to leave the possibility of using the IQ in some capacity (just the IQ not the whole Inquisition), if they need to or choose to. I doubt they have even pitched a story yet. But characters they want to get rid of usually end up disappeared or can be dead (including the Warden and Hawke). Just saying.
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#246
robertthebard

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I didn't say that though. It just comes across open ended enough to leave the possibility of using the IQ in some capacity (just the IQ not the whole Inquisition), if they need to or choose to. I doubt they have even pitched a story yet. But characters they want to get rid of usually end up disappeared or can be dead (including the Warden and Hawke). Just saying.


I can tell you why the Inquisitor didn't end up that way: The BSN would have blown up. Maybe literally.

#247
Sah291

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I'm kind of disappointed that there are no "Hawke is the Inquisitor" fanfic.


I'm pretty sure I've seen some. There's even an "Anders as Inquisitor" fic I saw, in which he disguises himself to attend the conclave. It was sort of funny, but unfinished though.

#248
midnight tea

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They went out of their way to explain to us why the Inquisitor wouldn't be back: While the first step isn't really all that limiting, they did take their arm, and then there's dialog at the end where they state they can't be the ones to go after him, because he knows how they work, and they'll have to find other people. So yes, they'd have to twist the story they told us out of proportion to bring the Inquisitor back. It would require functional amnesia on Solas' part, since he'd have to forget how you operate, despite being with you all the way through the main game of Inquisition, otherwise, his spies would have all the information he'd need to beat you right after the prologue.

 

On the contrary - they went out of their way to suggest that Inquisitor is not yet done, by serving us a delicious narrative twist.

 

Think about it: we've spent a good deal of Trespasser being told that Inquisition may not be needed anymore, that perhaps it's time to put the sword away and move on, and worry that maybe Inquisitor is about to die from malfunctioning Anchor....only at the very end for Inquisitor to survive and being given a new purpose with deep personal stakes.

 

Many people have also already pointed out that removing the arm with the Anchor is also a good reason to knock Inquisitor back to square one - they don't have a unique power that makes them OP anymore and they have a good excuse to put them back on a lower level, so they can re-learn how to fight.

 

Also... I don't know, it's like you're willfully ignoring what was said in the very game itself. Yes, Leliana said that Solas knows how Inquisition in its old shape has worked. Solution to it? Well, we have to find new people to work with!

 

Not only Inquisitor uses the word we (will have to do this - same with Cassandra: we will have to be careful), not only it's he/she who points a direction to achieve this new goal, but the message through epilogue cards and many dialogue options in the end suggest that Inquisition and Inquisitor have gone the route of a secretive order, upholding a lie of the organization being diminished or retired, while its leader travels all over the world, working on something.

 

You know, I'm really struggling with the mental gymnastics required to go from "We can't be the ones to fight him, he knows how we operate" to "We can take him, just put us in the next game".

 

I don't think we'll reach the agreement as to who is doing mental gymnastics here.

 

I mean: give me an example of any Thedosian organization that has any inkling what Solas is up to, know him personally or have any shade of chance to guess what he can do?

You think that Solas only has his agents in Inquisition? Judging from events in Trespasser AND Solas' earlier meddling with Orlesian leaders (in The Masked Empire) we can safely assume that everyone is compromised, while no one else has absolutely any idea who they're dealing with.

 

Just look what happened at the Exalted Council - who has dealt with the Qunari threat, while everyone else was either blissfully unaware or put their heads in the sand? Inquisition might have faltered same as others in terms of not screening their agents and getting infiltrated, but they've effectively saved the South. Again.

 

Therefore while Solas may have played everyone for fools, the truth is Inquisition knows him best as well - it's a double-edged sword in that regard. So far it seems no one else knows who they're dealing with, much less where to start doing anything to stop them.

 

I mean... you think Tevinter would? When the game makes it really clear that they'd be preoccupied with the Qunari invasion as well as a struggle for power in its own government?

 

Who else is there? The Wardens? When it was established already that there's a terrible divide in the Order and that they might be at the at the brink of destruction?

 

The Chantry? Orlais? Ferelden? Both nations did nothing but made Inquisitor's life tedious and did nothing to help with Qunari infiltration - that much we know already. And what they could do against Solas? Nothing really.

And Leliana and Cassandra seem to be working together with Inquisitor in secret, while officially they have to deal with re-building if the South and Chantry itself.

 

Really, unless we're being introduced to other forces at play, so far only what's left of Inquisition seem to have any realistic chance to uncover what Solas is planning and have any chance to stop him.


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#249
Sah291

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Many people have also already pointed out that removing the arm with the Anchor is also a good reason to knock Inquisitor back to square one - they don't have a unique power that makes them OP anymore and they have a good excuse to put them back on a lower level, so they can re-learn how to fight.


Plus the whole losing the hand thing is very Luke Skywalker/Darth Vader. I don't know if the reference was intentional, but I can't help but see it now. Either it's a character reset, retuning the IQ back to square one. Or it isn't. I really doubt the intention was "the IQ is disabled and therefore useless now" though. I just don't see PW or Bioware doing that.

#250
robertthebard

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On the contrary - they went out of their way to suggest that Inquisitor is not yet done, by serving us a delicious narrative twist.
 
Think about it: we've spent a good deal of Trespasser being told that Inquisition may not be needed anymore, that perhaps it's time to put the sword away and move on, and worry that maybe Inquisitor is about to die from malfunctioning Anchor....only at the very end for Inquisitor to survive and being given a new purpose with deep personal stakes.
 
Many people have also already pointed out that removing the arm with the Anchor is also a good reason to knock Inquisitor back to square one - they don't have a unique power that makes them OP anymore and they have a good excuse to put them back on a lower level, so they can re-learn how to fight.
 
Also... I don't know, it's like you're willfully ignoring what was said in the very game itself. Yes, Leliana said that Solas knows how Inquisition in its old shape has worked. Solution to it? Well, we have to find new people to work with!
 
Not only Inquisitor uses the word we (will have to do this - same with Cassandra: we will have to be careful), not only it's he/she who points a direction to achieve this new goal, but the message through epilogue cards and many dialogue options in the end suggest that Inquisition and Inquisitor have gone the route of a secretive order, upholding a lie of the organization being diminished or retired, while its leader travels all over the world, working on something.
 
 
I don't think we'll reach the agreement as to who is doing mental gymnastics here.
 
I mean: give me an example of any Thedosian organization that has any inkling what Solas is up to, know him personally or have any shade of chance to guess what he can do?
You think that Solas only has his agents in Inquisition? Judging from events in Trespasser AND Solas' earlier meddling with Orlesian leaders (in The Masked Empire) we can safely assume that everyone is compromised, while no one else has absolutely any idea who they're dealing with.
 
Just look what happened at the Exalted Council - who has dealt with the Qunari threat, while everyone else was either blissfully unaware or put their heads in the sand? Inquisition might have faltered same as others in terms of not screening their agents and getting infiltrated, but they've effectively saved the South. Again.
 
Therefore while Solas may have played everyone for fools, the truth is Inquisition knows him best as well - it's a double-edged sword in that regard. So far it seems no one else knows who they're dealing with, much less where to start doing anything to stop them.
 
I mean... you think Tevinter would? When the game makes it really clear that they'd be preoccupied with the Qunari invasion as well as a struggle for power in its own government?
 
Who else is there? The Wardens? When it was established already that there's a terrible divide in the Order and that they might be at the at the brink of destruction?
 
The Chantry? Orlais? Ferelden? Both nations did nothing but made Inquisitor's life tedious and did nothing to help with Qunari infiltration - that much we know already. And what they could do against Solas? Nothing really.
And Leliana and Cassandra seem to be working together with Inquisitor in secret, while officially they have to deal with re-building if the South and Chantry itself.
 

Really, unless we're being introduced to other forces at play, so far only what's left of Inquisition seem to have any realistic chance to uncover what Solas is planning and have any chance to stop him.


I can answer this entire post in two words: The Chantry. No matter who's on the Sunburst Throne, they were part of the Inquisition.