367 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

It's a very dangerous job. Dragons could attack.

[Darkstarr11]

They saved the world.  They stopped a Qunari invasion.  They solved a civil war, and freed another from occupation.  They discovered an ancient secret that shakes the world to its very foundations (  sorry, had to say it).  They RESHAPED the world.  With, or WITHOUT the Anchor, they ARE special.  It isn't what you HAVE...but what you DO with what you have that makes all the difference.  Hawke changed Thedas forever...and they didn't have a Mark.  Potentially a casteless dwarf; an elf from the slums, or a Dalish dying of an incurable illness could become the Hero of Ferelden.  NOT because they had gone through the Joining...they were picked because they excelled in SPITE of their station in life.  THAT'S why Duncan chose them.  No magic, just doing the best with what they had.  Heroes can be anyone...they don't have to be noble, or gifted with magic...a regular joe can pick up a sword, and become something grand.  Like Sutherland.  Look at your companions...a crazy elf from the Denerim slums; a businessman with a crossbow; a soldier with a dark past, and a horned giant with PTSD.  They had no special 'powers' at first...they just used what they had.  

 

So yeah, Mark or no, the Inquisitor IS special.

[BansheeOwnage]

Plus if staffs where as important as he is making them to be, then why don't saarebas not only not use them, but are as deadly as mage with a staff in lore?

 

Yes staffs are important, in gameplay. Bioware can easily change gameplay rules.

I get the sense that staves are like training wheels for mages, and the really powerful ones who are true masters of magic don't need or use them. If you can wrap your head around the immaterial and practice warping reality with thought, you don't need to flail your arms around or use a staff. I would bet that to Solas, this is just more evidence of how disconnected even mages are from magic now, and how they're all novices compared to anyone from ancient times.

 

Edit: Also Saarebas.

 

Mages are Bioware's special snowflakes in both lore and gameplay, there is no way they're doing this to hit mages hardest. If anything, the telekinesis we see used to repair bridges and such means mages are likely going to have far less trouble with a missing limb than others. As for combat animations? The poledancing mages do is probably mainly there for show, because "looking cool" is all the rage in games these days and that means gyrating, leaping, somersaulting, weapon-twirling and otherwise making a whole lot of fuss about whatever the character is doing.

I agree that part of it is to "look cool", but I also think it would be completely natural for mages to move around and use different "animations" to cast spells, just like we use a lot of body language in conversation. It goes with my thought above, that performing these movements helps novice mages direct their thoughts outward, and the most magically adept like Solas, Flemeth, or Corypheus no longer require staves and use a lot less body-motion and more thought. Though even the likes of Solas still does it to some extent - I'm sure he doesn't actually need to blink to petrify someone, but it's sort of intuitive.

 

In regards to the discussion about DA4 - I personally want a less ''epic-scale''. A story more similar to that of Hawke in DA2. I prefer more personal sorties over being another world saver.

It's very likely that the next game will be about saving the world again, unless Solas hides the whole time, which I think would be incredibly lame and make the story they're setting up lose its momentum. But I definitely hope they can make the world-saving story as personal as possible, and a good start would be having the Inquisitor be the one to confront Solas.

[The Baconer]

It's more like these people have not watched Evil Dead 2/Army of Darkness or read Berserk which shows that yes, a hero with a faked arm CAN be competent and good. It's all on execution.

 

I meant that the logic at work is dependent on making assumptions and construing them as canonical truth. For example:

 

 

I still think the loss of the limb nerfs mages and two handed warriors even more than the rest. There IS still a somatic component to most of the spells in DA, at least there's always been one for all our, in-party mages. We would probably also still have to learn how to cast all of our spells all over again, without the power boost of a staff. Or some sort of silly shortened staff that we have to constantly holster or drop and pick up, every time we wish to open a door climb a ladder or pick up something else. That's not exactly going to be an advantage in DA combat.

 

A mage Inquisitor's ability to weave magic is reduced to near-uselessness 'cuz "somatic components"? We've decided that this is a thing because of casting animations? We'll say this even after Solas petrifies a Qunari while standing completely still in the DLC? Furthermore, an inability to use a staff will leave a mage completely neutered? Saarebas don't use staves. Staves don't even require the use of both hands, if we're taking note of combat animations. Hell, we're using Dragon Age: Origins as an example of a staff's importance in its added spellpower, yet in that game it is literally never wielded with both hands, not for regular attacks and not even for spellcasting.

 

In addition, we're arguing that a smaller, streamlined staff constructed to be easily used in one hand is somehow more clumsy and cumbersome than a full-length staff. There is absolutely no logic or consistent reasoning in any of these arguments. Obviously there is an agenda here: the Inquisitor must be useless, and instead of arriving at this point by citing the mechanics of magic as provided in the lore, OP is simply starting at this conclusion and cherry-picking certain aspects in the lore (whether they really exist or not) and using them to reinforce said agenda.

[Rekkampum]

Available in OUR middle ages, yes. Yet the best thing the Inquisitor seems to be able to get, according to the epilogue, is the hideous crossbow thing, a far cry from the oft cited Götz von Berlichingen ones that did enable him to ride a horse and write with it and most likely also allowed him to use ladders and such. Maybe the Dragon Age world has had no significant need for functional prosthetics thus far due to magical healing, in which case our Inquisitor is likely screwed.

 

 

At this point, like a previous poster has said, we don't know enough about Dragon Age's lore on mages to answer this one way or the other. It all depends on how important the somatic component is to spell casting.

But even if we could learn to cast spells with one hand, or without hands, at all we would still need to learn how to actually do that, meaning we're essentially back to level 1 again. Same for all the other classes, we would need to learn how to do almost everything all over again. Which would potentially allow the Inquisitor to be the protagonist again, I'll admit.

Still given what Solas did, he may just have taken our magic along with it as well. If the Inq were to be the protagonist again I figure there's a 50/50 chance of this having happened and thus only having the choice between becoming a warrior or a rogue.

 

 

Yet the only prosthetic we actually get to see is that damnable crossbow thing, which I definitely would not want to see on my (former) mage Inquisitor,. instead of something a bit more hand-like and actually useful, though I guess that may not be possible if the amputation was above the elbow, after all.

 

For me, as a mage player, the two are potentially tied together, if Solas just took the anchor we're still a pretty decent mage, assuming we figure out the one handed casting and staff wielding bit eventually. If what Solas did renders my character permanently unable to access his magical potential than we pretty much just become any random crippled commoner in ability.

 

There's literally a model of a prosthetic arm in the Darvaarad. The reasoning you're using isn't really consistent, especially given how advanced Thedas is in comparison.

 

Also, Solas just took the anchor; the arm was too damaged to last, so it was amputated. A mage Inquisitor won't have any problem accessing magic.

[BansheeOwnage]

There's literally a model of a prosthetic arm in the Darvaarad. The reasoning you're using isn't really consistent, especially given how advanced Thedas is in comparison.

Inquisitor, take notes please:

[thats1evildude]

And yet only the IQ gathers it.

 

Not true. You can make Leliana's agents gather it.

[robertthebard]

Yes the answer here is "no, i wasn't paying attetion" if it refers to you ,you can gain access to the camp without saying you are grey warden ,all it takes is persuasion skill ,same for circle just you can gain access to the circle with even more routes where you can also use 3 companions and bribe to access circle.So no you are wrong.

I'll tell you what, show me the videos of you recruiting these factions to fight the Blight w/out using the treaties, and I'll cede the point. I don't want to hear "well, I had 'em, but I deleted 'em", and I don't want to hear "you can persuade the Templars to let the mages go fight the Blight, or to come themselves". I want to see the videos. W/out those treaties, you're just joe random...

[Mr.House]

Not true. You can make Leliana's agents gather it.

That's what I do, I never gather resources, I just send my minions to do it.

[Finis Valorum]

There's literally a model of a prosthetic arm in the Darvaarad. The reasoning you're using isn't really consistent, especially given how advanced Thedas is in comparison.

 

Yet somehow, the only thing we see the Inquisitor actually use in the epilogue is the stump crossbow.....or nothing at all. Maybe that prosthetic arm isn't actually functional, or its another bit of "lost tech" of which nobody knows how to get it to work properly or even activate it anymore, let alone attach it to somebody. My guess is if the Inquisitor is the protagonist again we will only find out how to use these much more elegant and useful prosthetics in the late game (in terms of game mechanics this would just have the effect of switching back from the special to the normal animations, shared with other, able bodied, party members, so it would be doable), or not at all.

 

Without the Inquisition's resources at their command they likely lack the resources for anything nice, at least if they're going to be the protagonist again, so they can make upgrading and possibly getting a better looking/fully functional one an in-game goal.

Then again if they only get a few cameo's they may also stick to the crossbow, or not bother with prosthetics at all, because that is cheaper and more convenient.

 

I get the sense that staves are like training wheels for mages, and the really powerful ones who are true masters of magic don't need or use them. If you can wrap your head around the immaterial and practice warping reality with thought, you don't need to flail your arms around or use a staff. I would bet that to Solas, this is just more evidence of how disconnected even mages are from magic now, and how they're all novices compared to anyone from ancient times.

 

Only in cutscenes, or if they are not in the party at all, are npc mages, like Solas, able to cast spells that way. Not counting the Saarebas here, they likely train very differently from the mages we know anyway and adopting their training will also require learning how to do a great many things all over again. Maybe Bioware will make separate animations for disabled mages if the Inquisitor is the protagonist again, but I still fear they're going to center them not around casting spells thoughtfully and with minimal movement, but make the basic magical attacks come out of some sort of "arm cannon" (that can likely be upgraded in various ways, except to make it function more like a true hand that is useful for minor daily tasks) that looks just as hideous as the crossbow and center all the new mage moves around that instead. When it comes to the actual game design the "rule of cool" is likely to trump any other considerations here.

Taking off the "training wheels", so to speak will likely still require time and extensive retraining for the Inquisitor in order to be able to do so as they've shown no ability in it up until now (in game mechanics this likely means a severe drop in level). 

 

They would also have to bring the customizable attribute system back to simulate this and even if they do, I doubt they're just going to give the mage Inquisitor any more starting points in spellpower than the other mages who can potentially join the party. Or make it a starting perk of the mage Inquisitor, I suppose. Far more likely they tie the in-game casting animations and spellpower to some ugly prosthetic, maybe even that stump crossbow, but just with magical bolts coming out of it.
 

[Mr.House]

Anders was able to do magic without a staff.

[The Baconer]

Not counting the Saarebas here, they likely train very differently from the mages we know anyway and adopting their training will also require learning how to do a great many things all over again.

 

Saarebas aren't trained.

[ModernAcademic]

Not true. You can make Leliana's agents gather it.

 

But they only gather like 6 elfroots per turn, while His/Her Awesome Inquisitorialness can gather much more on the field.

 

(Perhaps they are spending time together, making sweet love all over the countryside, instead of working?

Where's hardened Leliana to crack the whip on them?)

[Finis Valorum]

Anders was able to do magic without a staff.

 

Yes, but only in cutscenes and/or when he was not in the party at all. Unequip his staff in the actual game and he just equips a really lousy standard one out of thin air, just like Hawke and Merrill do. Mage Hawke also does a bit of staff less magic on occasion, in some cutscenes, but never in actual combat where we control him/her directly. Merrill, when fixing her Eluvian does so too, but also never in actual combat where we control her. All Origins mages can cast spells without a staff in-game, but do need it to perform the basic, ranged magical attacks. Without a staff equipped they simply run up to an enemy and attempt to punch it with their fists, not a particularly smart tactic, especially for a one armed mage.

 

Since the actual in-game combat must apparently be fast-paced and look "cool" chances are low they're just going to let a handicapped mage Inquisitor cast anything without elaborate animations, no matter what the lore says about their ability to do so.

[Majestic Jazz]

Not true. You can make Leliana's agents gather it.

 

And how much do they bring back exactly?

[Elhanan]

The IQ is far from useless. Who else is going to find camps, and pick elfroot for the Inquisition and chase Druffulo and Hallas around?

Could be anyone from the party, but seeing as they are the one controlled by the Player, it would seem useless might be dependent on them, too.

[Erstus]

I don't know. Jamie Lannister went from being one of the best sword fighters to hardly being able wield a sword after losing his hand.

[Jaron Oberyn]

Perhaps I will get a lot of hate for this but the Inquisitor really is just a normal guy at the end of the day. Whatever your origin, (right now playing male tal vashoth mage), you were a normal person just trying to get by. The mark changed that. It was what made you necessary for the plotline and was what (ironically) kept you alive because they likely would have executed you otherwise. Whatever Cassandra might claim, the reason you became Inquisitor is because of the mark. Ignoring time spent with companions and as leader, post amputation, you are essentially just a political figurehead. The inquisitor even says, his adventuring days are over. The fact is, without the anchor, you are just another dude/dudette. This is why I personally do not want to play the Inquisitor again next game. Your trump card has been used up and is gone. As an NPC I think it would be cool but for me with the amputation the story is over. The anchor was what made you special.

 

1. The inquisitor says his adventuring days MAY be over, and that is also dependent on which dialogue you choose. Keep in mind the epilogue scene clearly implies otherwise.

 

2. When have any of the protagonists been special? The warden is just one of many, hawke is essentially a bigger nobody who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. If anything the inquisitor has the most accomplishment because of what he/she was able to achieve. To create a powerful organization that could potentially rival countries. The inquisitor was influential in the shaping of most of southern thedas' history going forward. Whether it be what happens to mages, who your divine is, alliances you may have brokered, etc.

 

3. Lets remember, all the anchor did was allow them to close rifts. The inquisitors combat abilities were still his/her own.

 

4. Amputation doesn't render the character useless. Iron Bull was initially going to have an amputated arm, with a canon attached to it. Mages do not need staffs, and are no worse off post trespasser than they were before. Bowmen get a crossbow attachment as shown in the epilogue sequence. Sword/shield can easily use the other hand, and attach a special shield to the amputated arm. IIRC the arm that was cut off was in fact the shield arm too. Dual wield can be just as deadly with one hand. The only one that gets somewhat affected is the two hand warriors. Even so, the dwarven smiths can easily create a prosthetic. Some magical/mechanical device that can allow the inquisitor to regain their left hand in some form while also giving Bioware the opportunity to explore new combat dynamics.

 

 

I don't know. Jamie Lannister went from being one of the best sword fighters to hardly being able wield a sword after losing his hand.

Jaime lost his good hand. That was the key factor.

[Finis Valorum]

14. Amputation doesn't render the character useless. Iron Bull was initially going to have an amputated arm, with a canon attached to it. Mages do not need staffs, and are no worse off post trespasser than they were before. Bowmen get a crossbow attachment as shown in the epilogue sequence. Sword/shield can easily use the other hand, and attach a special shield to the amputated arm. IIRC the arm that was cut off was in fact the shield arm too. Dual wield can be just as deadly with one hand. The only one that gets somewhat affected is the two hand warriors. Even so, the dwarven smiths can easily create a prosthetic. Some magical/mechanical device that can allow the inquisitor to regain their left hand in some form while also giving Bioware the opportunity to explore new combat dynamics.

 

Mages do lose the (minor)spellpower boost and ranged magical/elemental attack if they do not, or cannot use a staff and running up to enemies to attempt to pummel them with your fists, like mages in Origin attempt to do if you take away their staff doesn't strike me like a clever tactic. Unless you're a knight-enchanter or arcane warrior fighting enemies at melee range isn't a good tactic for mages especially since pummeling them with our one good fist is likely to do negligible damage. Since Origin, at least in terms of the actual game mechanics mage abilities and power have become much more interwoven with what staff they happen to use.

They may also have to retrain themselves extensively to cast their spells differently than they were used to. All other classes must also adapt to fighting differently than they were used to. Mechanically this likely means we can say hello to a vastly decreased level. To say this doesn't affect what they can or cannot do, at least in the short term, is laughable as all adaptation takes time, in this case perhaps even a lot of time.

Perhaps the Dwarves can do that, perhaps they cannot ,in case they do not seem to actually be willing or able to provide such a thing to the Inquisitor during the epilogue at the very least.

 

Without a functional prosthetic you also lose the ability to effectively do a lot of the minor boring things that we take for granted, like being able to dress in nice clothes or wear high boots as an adventurer, unless they get every outfit custom made so you can put it on and take it off with just one hand, which severely limits your options in a setting without zippers and velcro. Or use dining utensils, or ride a horse and many other things.

[BansheeOwnage]

Yes, but only in cutscenes and/or when he was not in the party at all.

There are a lot more examples of mages who don't use staves than that, and of course there is the Inquisitor themselves who can say "I don't need a staff to be dangerous", which is just cementing what we already knew. You're reading way too much into gameplay limitations instead of the lore, which clearly states mages do not need staves and the most powerful ones don't use them at all.

 

And you realize that a "staff" can be anything, right? It doesn't have to be a walking stick or a metal scepter. There is an Arcane Warrior sword in DA:O that gives you the same boosts a staff does but still functions like a sword. Makes me wonder why more mages don't use magically charged swords to be honest.

[KaiserShep]

I'm surprised no one mentioned wands. I mean, it worked for Harry right? Yer a wizard, Inky. 

[Jaron Oberyn]

Mages do lose the (minor)spellpower boost and ranged magical/elemental attack if they do not, or cannot use a staff and running up to enemies to attempt to pummel them with your fists, like mages in Origin attempt to do if you take away their staff doesn't strike me like a clever tactic. Unless you're a knight-enchanter or arcane warrior fighting enemies at melee range isn't a good tactic for mages especially since pummeling them with our one good fist is likely to do negligible damage. Since Origin, at least in terms of the actual game mechanics mage abilities and power have become much more interwoven with what staff they happen to use.

They may also have to retrain themselves extensively to cast their spells differently than they were used to. All other classes must also adapt to fighting differently than they were used to. Mechanically this likely means we can say hello to a vastly decreased level. To say this doesn't affect what they can or cannot do, at least in the short term, is laughable as all adaptation takes time, in this case perhaps even a lot of time.

Perhaps the Dwarves can do that, perhaps they cannot ,in case they do not seem to actually be willing or able to provide such a thing to the Inquisitor during the epilogue at the very least.

 

Without a functional prosthetic you also lose the ability to effectively do a lot of the minor boring things that we take for granted, like being able to dress in nice clothes or wear high boots as an adventurer, unless they get every outfit custom made so you can put it on and take it off with just one hand, which severely limits your options in a setting without zippers and velcro. Or use dining utensils, or ride a horse and many other things.

 

You're looking at gameplay mechanics which aren't entirely grounded in reality. I can't equip a dagger as a mage, but that doesn't mean they can't handle one if they have to. The inquisitor says in the prologue to Cassandra when she tells them to drop the staff that they don't need one to cast magic. We see Saarebas who can cast magic without a staff, and some random orlesian noble shoots fire from his fingers. You seriously think the inquisitor will be any different? Especially given the comment in the prologue?

 

An amputated hand allows them to introduce new classes and specs. Should the inquisitor be returning as a protagonist this will give them a convenient excuse to start at level 1 and learn new skills and abilities that are suitable to your amputated hand and/or it's attachment whatever it may be.

[fizzypop]

Yeah quizzy just saved the world that's nothing special. People do that all the time.

[BansheeOwnage]

You're looking at gameplay mechanics which aren't entirely grounded in reality. I can't equip a dagger as a mage, but that doesn't mean they can't handle one if they have to.

Not only that, but you could equip daggers (or anything else) as a mage in DA:O if you wanted. It would even have a different casting animation. Just because that wasn't included in Inquisition combat doesn't mean, well, anything except that the devs had other priorities.

[Mr.House]

Not only that, but you could equip daggers (or anything else) as a mage in DA:O if you wanted. It would even have a different casting animation. Just because that wasn't included in Inquisition combat doesn't mean, well, anything except that the devs had other priorities.

Funny enough, just like in DAO where arcane warriors where better tanks and dps then warriors, KE not  only are better tanks but they can now DW swords now thanks to Tresspasser XD