109 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaison1986]

Apparently being a bigot in RL is not enough for some, they need to roleplay a bigot in games as well? Even better, both Dorian and Sera can be removed from your party and not seen again which, to me, would seem disapproval enough but nooo...we have to rub it in their faces apparently?

 

Oh boy, some people...maybe Solas should hurry up?

 

Hmm, that's an good argument. Then we also shouldn't have the option to offend mages/elves/woman/atheists, etc. But we do. I don't understands why homosexuals think that they are these snowflakes immune to insult and offense. I certanly got pretty offended by playing DAI as an atheist and all these religious snobs rubbing their BS in face and me not be able to do anything about it. But you know what? I moved on. I know that in reality such things happen and life is not aways fair. And that in fact made this game feel pretty real to me in that aspect.

[Majestic Jazz]

Yes, an isolated negative comment from Steam renders all assertions of DAI's popularity completely moot. We should all be ashamed. 

 

Strawman response.

 

Nowhere in my post did I state that because one Steam user hated DAI equated to most people hating DAI. I simply stated that DAI while popular within Bioware circles may not have the same level of popularity/respect in other circles or communities and that people should not be surprised about this. I mean, in my opinion, I have noticed that within these forums, if you criticize DAI constantly, then you are considered a troll who makes threads/replies to simply get attention. Maybe that post by the Steam user could have been intended at trolling or not. The point is just because someone has a view about DAI that differs from yours, that does not automatically make them a troll just like I understand that just because someone has an opinion about DAI that differs from mine, that does not automatically make them a blind Bioware/DAI fanboy. I simply understand that we have different taste/expectations. However, just because our taste differ, that does not make one of ours more superior/valid than the other's.

 

This was the basis of my reply. Whether you accept that or continue believing what you want to believe is up to you. 

[Donk]

Hmm, that's an good argument. Then we also shouldn't have the option to offend mages/elves/woman/atheists, etc. But we do. I don't understands why homosexuals think that they are these snowflakes immune to insult and offense. I certanly got pretty offended by playing DAI as an atheist and all these religious snobs rubbing their BS in face and me not be able to do anything about it. But you know what? I moved on. I know that in reality such things happen and life is not aways fair. And that in fact made this game feel pretty real to me in that aspect.

 

I agree with you. But one thing, we do not think we are "snowflakes immune to insult and offense". We're just sick of people dictating who we should sleep with. I get that people feel squeamish or don't agree with it due to their religious/conservative beliefs, but it's none of their business.. it exists. People aren't gonna change just because they think it so. I don't like religion, I hate how I go to a hotel and there's a bible sitting there on the bedside table. But at the end of the day.. it doesn't matter. I don't have to have anything to do with it, if I don't want to.

[MrTijger]

@Jaison1986 You can play DAI as an atheist and express that you do not believe in the Maker at all in several places so I dont see your point, the fact that others believe it and believe the Chantry or other gods exist is a bit of a moot point.

 

@MajesticJazz Did anyone suggest that DAI is popular with everyone and everywhere? I'm not sure what your point is but the OP does seem a bit trollish but meh, if that's what that person thinks then that's his problem, he's missing out imho.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Meh, let people hold their own view. Their will always be some body who disagrees with any series stance.

[XMissWooX]

I didn't think it was handled too badly.
As I see it, a person need only bring up their sexuality in a sexual context. None of the companions/advisors mentioned it unless you flirted with them, with the exception of Dorian who brings it up in the context of his father's disapproval.
Seemed subtle and natural to me.

[Donk]

Strawman response.

 

Nowhere in my post did I state that because one Steam user hated DAI equated to most people hating DAI. I simply stated that DAI while popular within Bioware circles may not have the same level of popularity/respect in other circles or communities and that people should not be surprised about this. I mean, in my opinion, I have noticed that within these forums, if you criticize DAI constantly, then you are considered a troll who makes threads/replies to simply get attention. Maybe that post by the Steam user could have been intended at trolling or not. The point is just because someone has a view about DAI that differs from yours, that does not automatically make them a troll just like I understand that just because someone has an opinion about DAI that differs from mine, that does not automatically make them a blind Bioware/DAI fanboy. I simply understand that we have different taste/expectations. However, just because our taste differ, that does not make one of ours more superior/valid than the other's.

 

This was the basis of my reply. Whether you accept that or continue believing what you want to believe is up to you. 

 

Of course. We aren't called "Biotards" for nothing.

[Majestic Jazz]

 

 

@MajesticJazz Did anyone suggest that DAI is popular with everyone and everywhere? I'm not sure what your point is but the OP does seem a bit trollish but meh, if that's what that person thinks then that's his problem, he's missing out imho.

 

Nobody here explicitly suggest DAI is popular, but many people here has this habit if equating strong and constant DAI criticism with trolling which is not always the case. I would like to call it, "playing the troll card" where whenever someone creates a thread that points to DAI being shown in a negative light, then their thread is simpley "trolling". 

 

Look, people have strong opinions about DAI for whatever reasons. Perhaps they loved DAO and wants all DA games to be a copy & paste of that so therefore they will dog DAI to the end because it isn't what they wanted. You have those who are irksome about the social stances that DAI explicitly/implicitly takes on and they feel as if DAI/Bioware is trying to force liberal/feminist/pro-gay "agendas" in our faces. Whether you agree or disagree with that notion, that does not make it an invalid concern for others and thus does not make it trolling. Then you have those who hate DAI for various other reasons such as lack of cutscenes, fetch quest, MMO gameplay design, boring protagonist, boring villain, boring story, boring whatever. Again, just because they post thread/replies about them does not mean they are trolling.

 

Personally, like an above user said, we like to use the term "trolling" too liberally here. Trolling has become this, "Oh, they come to a DAI forum and talk bad about DAI....they are TROLLING!!!!". Well, whoever said that DAI forum must only consist of positive discussions of DAI? If one does not like President Obama, does that make them racist? If one does like Candidate Hillary Clinton or Carly Fiorina, does that make them sexist?

[Jaison1986]

I agree with you. But one thing, we do not think we are "snowflakes immune to insult and offense". We're just sick of people dictating who we should sleep with. I get that people feel squeamish or don't agree with it due to their religious/conservative beliefs, but it's none of their business.. it exists. People aren't gonna change just because they think it so. I don't like religion, I hate how I go to a hotel and there's a bible sitting there on the bedside table. But at the end of the day.. it doesn't matter. I don't have to have anything to do with it, if I don't want to.

 

It's more about that there is no disagreeable option at all. My point is, I think there should be options to roleplay as all kinds of characters. For example, during Dorian personal quest, we could have different kind of options, such as:

 

"It's ok, there is nothing wrong with that Dorian"

"Your relationships are none of my business"

"That's revolting!"

 

And just because the third option is avaliable, doesn't mean I would take it. But I could still choose it later when roleplaying a different kind character. Just like I'm completely ok with roleplaying as an fervently religious character. My ultimate point in this is that just because you hate people behaving like that, doesn't mean they will stop existing.

[GGGenesis]

I honestly feel anti-gay people think a little too much about gay sex and gayness and 'lifestyle choices' and yet won't yell at someone smoking in front of small children. 

 

There are aspects of the game which did feel forced such as the way Krem was handled. Okay, he's a transman, but putting in dialogue explaining trans identities is not the best way to get your message across and just makes bigots even more bigotty. Gaider said it somewhere that LGBT issues are hard to write about because you are essentially battling with everyone and their grandma - you want to educate so you can please members of the LGBT community, you want to be subtle so the anti-LGBT don't reduce the character to their LGBT-ness and don't rage on and conflate a small mention of LGBT-ness into TEH WHOLE GAME IS GAY AGENDAAA and you also want to attempt to capture as accurate a portrait of LGBT which is friggen hard. Because we are basically, well, human. Meaning we're unique. How do you portray an Asian in a film while not being racist, satisfy Asians and without being too confronting to anti-Asian bigots? It's a really tough thing to do.

 

I'm a post-grad and SRC rep for the Queer Society at this torture den called 'university' and 99% of all the gamey people have played DAI and some love Dorian and others hate him. Why do they hate him? Because he feeds into a stereotype, because he's sooooo camp, because he whines, because I'M NOT THAT KIND OF GAY PERSON. Which basically makes me bash my head on something because you look at some of the LGBT community and you find people who are just like Dorian as well as people who aren't like him at all. You really can't please everyone is the bottom line and the best thing to do is just give them less air time. 

While you can't really object to Dorian's sexuality, you can basically shut down conversation about it in a way that suggests disgust. Playing a mean character doesn't mean petty insults, in fact, I've yet to find a quality RPG that does that. It would be crappy script writing if it did that. Heck, even Skyrim didn't resort to petty jabs. 

But what I'd like to know...why is DAI being targeted for being so PC when we have had a multitude of LGBT characters in games (looking at you The Last of Us)? Honestly, I sometimes feel Bioware fans are the worst at times. I've yet to see anyone call out Fallout: New Vegas for being PC where two of your companions are gay/lesbian and you can't be a D to them about it, or even Skyrim's marriages. But the PC criticism is rife with DAI.

[Jaison1986]

 

But what I'd like to know...why is DAI being targeted for being so PC when we have had a multitude of LGBT characters in games (looking at you The Last of Us)? Honestly, I sometimes feel Bioware fans are the worst at times. I've yet to see anyone call out Fallout: New Vegas for being PC where two of your companions are gay/lesbian and you can't be a D to them about it, or even Skyrim's marriages. But the PC criticism is rife with DAI.

 

I think it's because these games don't make an big deal about it. Wich can make quite an difference. I remember sir hammerlock from Borderlands 2 is homosexual, and Axton, my protagonist of choice, was said to be bisexual by the devs. And these characters are easily my favourites in the game. And the best of all, is that they simply are the way they are without the game making a fuss. I like Krem, but I would like Krem a lot more if people didn't dwelled on the fact Krem is trans constantly. That kind of stuff taints the character for me.

[Bizantura]

Since when does "any media" tow anything else but the proper mass media collectivism we "the many" have to adhere to.  Tow a different tune and you get corrected by those "many collectivists" or worse get reported by them and thrown of the forum fore a while.

[Poledo]

When someone complains about things being too PC - all I hear is "They're stopping me from being an *******" and I see nothing wrong with that.

[Aulis Vaara]

But what I'd like to know...why is DAI being targeted for being so PC when we have had a multitude of LGBT characters in games (looking at you The Last of Us)? Honestly, I sometimes feel Bioware fans are the worst at times. I've yet to see anyone call out Fallout: New Vegas for being PC where two of your companions are gay/lesbian and you can't be a D to them about it, or even Skyrim's marriages. But the PC criticism is rife with DAI.

Just a suggestion, but maybe it has something to do with Bioware's writing and not so much with people's conviction. Most people pay money to play a good game, not to be lectured to.

[robertthebard]

Trolling does take place on the BSN, like everywhere on the internet, but I think people are too liberal with that term.
 
I think it's perfectly fair and valid to criticize DA:I or any Bioware title for that matter, as long as one is doing so in a constructive manner, and he or she supports their points with evidence from the game.
 
Also, trolling is technically when someone posts a comment on the internet solely to get a rise out of people or provoke a response. They don't necessarily believe what they are saying, or even care about the issue. I am sure that there are some people out there who actually feel that DA:I was pandering to certain audiences. I am not one of them, just saying.

So I will direct you to the quote in the OP, and ask you: Is that constructive criticism?

[SwobyJ]

Dorian was a terribly handled character, IMO. He's one of the few (if only) characters in the entire series that got to have their cake and eat it too. People complain about Leliana and Fiona being Mary Sues, but Dorian is the Suest of the Sues in the entire DA franchise. He lived a privileged life and attended a great school, and was intelligent enough to master time magic. He was able to run away from his duty, yet still reap the same benefits that others in his position worked hard to get. His arrogance and snarkiness, his only bad traits, have been turned into endearing traits and his alcoholism is portrayed as a "woobie" trait to garner sympathy from the audience. He's either found a good friend in the Inquisitor or is their lover, and all the members of the Inquisition come to adore him and the one person who was skeptical of his intents, but was otherwise a good person at heart, is vilified by the audience. I mean, I'm all for positive portrayals of minorities but Bioware went to the extreme to make Dorian the perfect gay guy. Everything turns up Dorian and he doesn't have to struggle at all to get his way. I could say much more, but I'm typing this on my phone and don't want to go on even more on a tangent about how I dislike this guy and his portrayal. I just hope that the next gay character is a little more gray than Dorian is.

 

But it wasn't an easy path there, sorry. He had to resist blood magic from his parent, stop his loved mentor who almost sent the world into chaos, and you know what? I half expect him to get assassinated in DA4.

 

And he does have a negative trait, it just isn't strong. He's Tevinter and is weak as hell at his apologietics for it. "Slavery? Oh.. I didn't really see the problem with it." "Chantry? I thought you White Chantry was kind of nonsense but was I wrong?"

 

Anyway, this is the kind of stuff that I see when a gay character appears in fiction and isn't a villain or 'has a dark side' or is an utter clown. Sometimes they just try to be good people. Really. Really really. Like straight people, often. We don't freak out over there being Varric or Cassandra.

 

You say you're for positive portrayals yet you're bristling against a ...positive portrayal. I've seen this sort of thing before.

 

Could he have been more overtly Bad Tevinter? Sure. Could he have been more scheming? Sure. But I actually think Bioware didn't want to fall into a pattern media can have where gay characters are played up for villainy, mental illness/personality disorder (even sometimes subliminally), and minstrelness (ultimately a joke not to be taken seriously). Dorian is just Dorian, trying to help the world - not being perfect, but being good. That's the 'big shocker' about him: he's just good. And I think some can't stand that, and can't stand there being a significance on his sexuality at the same time. Because how can this easily be turned to mean a negative agenda?

 

Seriously. When I read "Dorian is the perfect gay guy" I'm just receiving "Dorian is too good for a gay person", because you either don't see his character flaws or you're intentionally overlooking them.

[SwobyJ]

Just a suggestion, but maybe it has something to do with Bioware's writing and not so much with people's conviction. Most people pay money to play a good game, not to be lectured to.

 

That's been the interesting thing for the 'games' vs 'art' debate.

 

Are games just games and nothing more? No art at all? Then okay, leave political lecturing out of it. Entirely. Good luck getting any story or themes happening in any clear way, but sure, okay, its just a game. And only a game. Beep boop. Plots will be damn hard to write because they all use political and social messaging.

 

Are games art though? At all? Then its the creator's right to lecture as they please, or else there are effects of censoring (self or external) at play. You don't get to say they can't and for them to necessarily care, if you value artistic freedom. If they have a message they want to push then its part of their art and they won't be necessarily silenced by consumer demand or forms of social activism. This goes for left or right.

 

If you're to take the position that games are not art at all, then I'll concede to your opinion. You just want to play something and not get any clear message, that you may disagree with, that makes you feel like you're being lectured to about it. I hope you then keep this stance in mind in general, and not only for your own tastes though. There's a lot of stuff just tolerated in gaming because 'its how gaming is', even as its actually a very deliberate political messaging by the creators, just one that you/one may happen to agree with and therefore gloss over like its no big deal.

 

 

BTW I'm not talking about existence and legitimacy of critique of art - just allowing Bioware expressing themselves through it. I don't think the 'pay money to play a good game, not to get lectured to' is a great argument. Its something I see 'anti-SJWs' come from, yet they themselves are completely fine with the opposite messaging and go 'lalala' about it, conveniently, because its stuff they agree with or at least accept. Its the kind of stuff that has 'anti-SJWs' claim Gone Home isn't a game at all, when that is so untrue. Claim its a bad game, or barely a game, or an annoying game, etc etc - but NOT a game? Because 'SJWs' are making an 'interactive experience' focused game? Because they 'have an agenda they are pushing'?

'Sure I'll tolerate gay people in a game if I have to, just don't talk to me about it in a dialogue-based game. I just want a good game.' (the implicit sounding like you mean that talking about gay people in a positive light makes a bad game because reasons)

[Aulis Vaara]

*snip*

Didn't bother to read, sorry, because it's not about games versus art. Art is not a thing anyway, it's just a word to point out there's pretentiousness involved. A game is a PRODUCT that people PAY MONEY for, and they have every ****** right to say when a product was poorly made.

And if you think that people (hint, that includes you) should not have a right to complain when they don't like something, you're deliberately signing away your rights. Which is dumb. Don't ****** do that.

[Rekkampum]

But it wasn't an easy path there, sorry. He had to resist blood magic from his parent, stop his loved mentor who almost sent the world into chaos, and you know what? I half expect him to get assassinated in DA4.

 

And he does have a negative trait, it just isn't strong. He's Tevinter and is weak as hell at his apologietics for it. "Slavery? Oh.. I didn't really see the problem with it." "Chantry? I thought you White Chantry was kind of nonsense but was I wrong?"

 

Anyway, this is the kind of stuff that I see when a gay character appears in fiction and isn't a villain or 'has a dark side' or is an utter clown. Sometimes they just try to be good people. Really. Really really. Like straight people, often. We don't freak out over there being Varric or Cassandra.

 

You say you're for positive portrayals yet you're bristling against a ...positive portrayal. I've seen this sort of thing before.

 

Could he have been more overtly Bad Tevinter? Sure. Could he have been more scheming? Sure. But I actually think Bioware didn't want to fall into a pattern media can have where gay characters are played up for villainy, mental illness/personality disorder (even sometimes subliminally), and minstrelness (ultimately a joke not to be taken seriously). Dorian is just Dorian, trying to help the world - not being perfect, but being good. That's the 'big shocker' about him: he's just good. And I think some can't stand that, and can't stand there being a significance on his sexuality at the same time. Because how can this easily be turned to mean a negative agenda?

 

Seriously. When I read "Dorian is the perfect gay guy" I'm just receiving "Dorian is too good for a gay person", because you either don't see his character flaws or you're intentionally overlooking them.

 

This.

[Shechinah]

....

In my opinion, Dorian Pavus seem to undergo quite a bit of character development, an arc even:

 

Dorian claims he misses his home but says he would not do so if he did not believe Tevinter could be changed for the better. This is in some of the first dialogue avaliable with him after he has joined the Inquisition, I believe.

 

Despite this, he is somewhat semi-apathic about personally helping bring about that change because of what has happened to the people who attempted such previously and how much of a task it would be. This is expressed in banter, I believe, he has with Solas. 

 

As of Trespasser, however, Dorian decides to become personally involved with the efforts at huge risk by assuming his father seat as Magister and eventually forming a group called the Lucerni with Maevaris Tilani in the hopes of changing their homeland for the better. He did not assume the seat solely to find his father's murderers and then return to semi-apathy. He seems to become openly involved in political and social changes.
 

[SwobyJ]

Didn't bother to read, sorry, because it's not about games versus art. Art is not a thing anyway, it's just a word to point out there's pretentiousness involved. A game is a PRODUCT that people PAY MONEY for, and they have every ****** right to say when a product was poorly made.

And if you think that people (hint, that includes you) should not have a right to complain when they don't like something, you're deliberately signing away your rights. Which is dumb. Don't ****** do that.

 

You can complain. I don't think I said otherwise.

 

It just won't necessarily be respected. An opinion is easy to have. A complaint often even moreso.

 

Bioware doesn't seem to be as interested in your opinion as others. Either let them be, and maybe fail as a result, or express yourself better to have yourself heard or respected. So far, they've made it damn clear that they'll be LGBT inclusive and positive.

 

Signing away my rights lmao. Stop the hyperbole. Or not. Again, opinions!

[SwobyJ]

I believe something that seems to be often missed about Dorian Pavus is that he seems undergo character development, an arc even:

 

Dorian claims he misses his home but says he would not do so if he did not believe Tevinter could be changed for the better. This is in some of the first dialogue avaliable with him after he has joined the Inquisition, I believe.

 

Despite this, he is somewhat semi-apathic about personally helping bring about that change because of what has happened to the people who attempted such previously and how much of a task it would be. This is expressed in banter, I believe, he has with Solas. 

 

As of Trespasser, however, Dorian decides to become personally involved with the efforts at huge risk by assuming his father seat as Magister and eventually forming a group called the Lucerni with Maevaris Tilani in the hopes of changing their homeland for the better. He did not assume the seat solely to find his father's murderers and then return to semi-apathy. He seems to become openly involved in political and social changes.
 

 

Yes he definitely does have an arc. From the relatively apathetic (oh no, he's not villainous or deeply flawed or pointless!) to the actively reformist.

 

But see this arc just makes him even more of a SJW character you see you see.

[Kantr]

If there were proper moderators on this forum this thread would either have deleted posts or being locked due to the ad-honomen attacks

 

basically TammieAz is a hypocrite.

[Nefla]

I didn't understand what the OP was talking about until I read the replies >.< I don't think the devs should write and record (real) racist, sexist or homophobic lines for the protagonist to potentially say, it's tasteless and a total waste since only a handful of crappy people would pick that and the resources could be used to write a greater number of legitimate lines instead. Now in-game prejudices on the other hand, yes I wish we could express our opinions on them more. Be a human or elf supremacist, hate the qunari (even if you are one by race), be prejudiced against mages, Andrastians, etc...or on the other hand speak up passionately against characters with those prejudices.

[Bhryaen]

It took me a while to understand what the hell he meant by PC stick.

 

Anyways, it's wrong, but it's pointless to argue with that kind of mentality.

Player Character sticks? Personal Comp- ohhh. Should've just said "SJW sticks." Yeah, I didn't get that- too busy getting involved in sweeping lore shifts and the like. Frankly, if the devs were more actively implementing their "PC" political bent, it still makes for an interesting world to explore, fleshed out and such, since the challenge is to make it immersive regardless. The big, bad meanies weren't all white guys against all non-white women heroes or anything, and, for instance, Krem was one of the coolest characters- Androgynous Pat in armor with a badass 'tude.