459 réponses à ce sujet

[TEWR]

So a convoluted, nonsensical plots is more interesting to you then?

 

I've yet to see any in-depth reason why the narrative is nonsensical for MGS.

[Puddi III]

MGS plot is pretty hard to follow if you ask me, but I started and ended my MGS journey on MGS2.

I didn't understand why Fortune had actual mind powers and why Emma wanted to bang her brother.

[Killroy]

I've yet to see any in-depth reason why the narrative is nonsensical for MGS.

Are you serious?

[The Hierophant]

I've yet to see any in-depth reason why the narrative is nonsensical for MGS.

Same here. 

[The Hierophant]

Are you serious?

All you've said was nano machines as if that's some end all rebuttal to the overarching plot of the series instead of some instances. Your points are too vague. Did you even play the games? No few minutes of watching let's plays either.

[Puddi III]

I don't see a problem here.

[TEWR]

MGS plot is pretty hard to follow if you ask me, but I started and ended my MGS journey on MGS2.

I didn't understand why Fortune had actual mind powers and why Emma wanted to bang her brother.

 

Stepbrother, technically. Haven't played enough of 2 yet (always avoided it) but I don't see anything about her wanting to bang Otacon on the wiki. Says she actually kinda resents him and wants revenge against him.

 

Fortune's is explained in the game. This much I know. The Patriots planted a device on her or in her that had some effect on turning her into a supersoldier and she was unaware of this, however in keeping with the spirit of the games it's implied that she may have had some supernatural abilities herself (this is not new to MGS, but has always been used to enhance the story).

 

Some might chide the notion of supersoldiers with fantastic things in a "realistic" setting but I mean, governments have made a point of trying to craft elite soldiers.

 

 

 

All you've said was nano machines as if that's some end all rebuttal to the overarching plot of the series instead of some instances. Your points are too vague. Did you even play the games? No few minutes of watching let's plays either.

 

yup.

[TEWR]

I don't see a problem here.

 

Wasn't Kojima's writing though.

 

It's fun to play and watch for the sheer ham though.

 

Nanomachines, son!

[Killroy]

All you've said was nano machines as if that's some end all rebuttal to the overarching plot of the series instead of some instances. Your points are too vague. Did you even play the games? No few minutes of watching let's plays either.

A simple search on YouTube for "metal gear solid storyline explained" will illuminate the plot deficiencies of MGS. It's convoluted, needlessly complex without being intelligent, and poorly continued from one title to the next, resulting in timeline and plot problems that require more convoluted writing to work around.
I played the series from MGS all the way through MGSIV and started MGSV. Though I should note that I received the last two games as gifts. I didn't care enough to buy any more MGS games after Snake Eater.

[Puddi III]

Stepbrother, technically. Haven't played enough of 2 yet (always avoided it) but I don't see anything about her wanting to bang Otacon on the wiki. Says she actually kinda resents him and wants revenge against him.
 
Fortune's is explained in the game. This much I know. The Patriots planted a device on her or in her that had some effect on turning her into a supersoldier and she was unaware of this, however in keeping with the spirit of the games it's implied that she may have had some supernatural abilities herself (this is not new to MGS, but has always been used to enhance the story).
 
Some might chide the notion of supersoldiers with fantastic things in a "realistic" setting but I mean, governments have made a point of trying to craft elite soldiers.

I remember she was all "see me as a woman oniichan" (okay I added the weeb part).

I was like wut.

Yeah the Fortune stuff made for good cinema which is what MGS does best. Still it bothered me more than trying to figure out all the scissors-need-I weirdness at the end.

There was also Vamp's existence.

But I'm not really serious right now, I liked MGS2 anyways.

[Andres Hendrix]

Which review is that, exactly? I've seen the outfit called stupid, silly, immature, but not gross. And was the reviewer hostile to bikinis in general, or hostile to glorified bikinis on soldiers for fanservice? There's a difference. If you're going to engage in hysteria over political correctness, at least put up an actual example of what you're talking about. Got a link?

 
 


Who gives a damn about the model? She's a model paid to do a job. (How'd you even know her name, anyway?) Nobody'd say anything to Joosten's face about that outfit because it's the guys hiring her who put her in the outfit. Now, if she was wearing bikinis on her own time in a place where wearing a bikini is silly, people might say something about it to her face, and they'd be right to say something about it to her face. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with Quiet.
 
 



Saying the outfit is gross doesn't necessarily make the person who is wearing it gross. It means that the person who picked the outfit out had awful taste. People who thoughts all the ass shots in ME2 were stupid didn't blame Yvonne Strahovski.
 
 


And they're right to describe it as a negative thing that takes away from the MGS experience. That's exactly what it is. It's stupid. It's just stupid. Unless such stupidity really is supposed to be part of the MGS experience? I thought it was something that we just have to put up with , but I'm not enough of a MGS fan to know for sure. FWIW, I'm with the Kotaku guy -- I don't think it's stupid enough to wreck the game.

I already said that the video was on IGN, http://ca.ign.com/vi...d-5-spoilercast. "Who gives a damn about the model" 'she is just a model', makes you sound like a ****** ******. The game model for Quiet consists of Joostens face and body (the Fox engine uses photo relaisim), calling Quiet gross is essentially calling Joosten gross. Which is very rude, and cruel something that you can't seem to understand (which puts me on my guard).

Joosten also sang Quiet's theme

 

,

 

and was Quiet's voice actress when she finally spoke

Spoiler

to save Venom Snake's life

. Quiet's charter consists of more than just a bikini.


Joosten wearing a Bikini in an office or whatever is not the point, I've addressed this three times. It's a separate moral issue that would involve a discussion about liberal rights, like freedom of expression and so on. That is a separate issue from Metal Gear Solid V.

You throwing around the word stupid is repetitive, and is ironic that you keep repeating it over and over when you yourself call for 'coherent arguments'.

 

[Seboist]

MGS plot is pretty hard to follow if you ask me, but I started and ended my MGS journey on MGS2.

I didn't understand why Fortune had actual mind powers and why Emma wanted to bang her brother.

 

I don't remember anything involving Emma and her (step)brother wanting to go at it. Otacon did go at it with his stepmother tho....

[Puddi III]

I'm talking about this scene. (spoilers)

I mean I kinda expect this stuff from Japan on a semi-regular basis now after watching so much anime, but I wasn't such a weeaboo back then, lol.

[Andres Hendrix]

I don't remember anything involving Emma and her (step)brother wanting to go at it. Otacon did go at it with his stepmother tho....

I think it went that Emma was jealous of her mother. Otacon did not see Emma as anything but a sister. 

[AlanC9]

I already said that the video was on IGN, http://ca.ign.com/vi...d-5-spoilercast.

Jeez... 38 minutes? I wouldn't watch even that much blather about a series I was really invested in. Easy enough to jump around, though. I presume you're talking about the bit at about 21 minutes in, where one of the guys tosses off that her outfit is super dumb and super gross, right?

"Who gives a damn about the model" 'she is just a model', makes you sound like a ****** ******. The game model for Quiet consists of Joostens face and body (the Fox engine uses photo relaisim), calling Quiet gross is essentially calling Joosten gross. Which is very rude, and cruel something that you can't seem to understand (which puts me on my guard).

Are we listening to the same video? He's talking about the outfit, which isn't Joosten's fault. And the rest of the panel agrees that the problem is the outfit. No one says anything bad about Joosten. (Neither did I,unless not caring at all about someone is supposed to be a hostile act now.)

Are you quite sure you're not an SJW yourself? You seem to be very good at finding imaginary slights.

And what does Joosten's singing have to do with the topic?

Joosten wearing a Bikini in an office or whatever is not the point, I've addressed this three times. It's a separate moral issue that would involve a discussion about liberal rights, like freedom of expression and so on. That is a separate issue from Metal Gear Solid V.

Yeah, I know you keep saying it's a differnt issue. But that's because you're confused about what the issue is. You keep thinking that this is about morals, when it is not.

You throwing around the word stupid is repetitive, and is ironic that you keep repeating it over and over when you yourself call for 'coherent arguments'.

Actually, you've got a point. I'll say it's silly instead, since "silly" is more accurate than "stupid" here -- given the way that fans eat this stuff up, it can't actually be stupid. And silliness is the substance of the critique. No one's making a moral argument. Everyone's making a fanservice argument or a silliness argument, and the fanservice argument essentially reduces to a silliness argument.

[Cunning Villain]

 

This is now my favorite video on YouTube. kWo 4 life

 

Anyway, I love Metal Gear and I like Mass Effect. I'm not interested in getting into a pissing match over two series I'm fond of. However, I do find it funny most of the posters who are drawing the line between Metal Gear/Kojima (boo) and Mass Effect (yay) are the same posters who throw tantrums over The Witcher III being held in higher regard than any Dragon Age game. One more thing:

 

 

The problem with Kojima is that he's overly preachy in terms of his themes like MGS2's perception of information theme, while he's better off telling than showing since the games GZ, and PP are redundant in their showing of BB transition as the antagonist of the original MG games.

 

Perhaps, but I actually agree with him on that.

[Andres Hendrix]

Jeez... 38 minutes? I wouldn't watch even that much blather about a series I was really invested in. Easy enough to jump around, though. I presume you're talking about the bit at about 21 minutes in, where one of the guys tosses off that her outfit is super dumb and super gross, right?


Are we listening to the same video? He's talking about the outfit, which isn't Joosten's fault. And the rest of the panel agrees that the problem is the outfit. No one says anything bad about Joosten. (Neither did I,unless not caring at all about someone is supposed to be a hostile act now.)

Are you quite sure you're not an SJW yourself? You seem to be very good at finding imaginary slights.

And what does Joosten's singing have to do with the topic?



Yeah, I know you keep saying it's a differnt issue. But that's because you're confused about what the issue is. You keep thinking that this is about morals, when it is not.


Actually, you've got a point. I'll say it's silly instead, since "silly" is more accurate than "stupid" here -- given the way that fans eat this stuff up, it can't actually be stupid. And silliness is the substance of the critique. No one's making a moral argument. Everyone's making a fanservice argument or a silliness argument, and the fanservice argument essentially reduces to a silliness argument.

You said "Who gives a damn about the model? She's a model paid to do a job. (As a reminder, this makes you sound like a ******). She was not just a model, this is false, hence why I told you that she also sang that rather lovely piece, and was also the voice actress for Quiet. Credit where credit is due, to do otherwise is to be rude, you don't seem to have a concept of rudeness it's rather disturbing. No, I've no interest in finding justice in matters of 'culture', unless they lead to a physical act that breaks the law. Everything that I write here either amounts to my opinion, or addressing 'how' people think. First of all there is nothing wrong with silliness in art, Joyce's Ulysses is silly, that is most certainly not a slight against it. Shakespeare's Henry the 4^th is silly, that is not a slight against it. Silliness is something almost joyful in human experience, in literature it is usually celebrated. When it came to Metal Gear, gamers used to celebrate the silliness, and then this generation discovered political correctness... As for your constant use of the word stupid, as a famous Roman once wrote (I think it was Plautus) "Ah, lassitudinem Hercle verba tua mihi addunt, enicas."As for all this other stuff, this 'conversation' with you has degraded into ad hominem, and cherry picking. Joosten herself wearing a bikini in her actual life to an office job etc., is a separate issue, and if someone tried to tell her not to do so, or proceeded to lecture her or what have you, that is both a legal issue, and a moral issue and is separate from this conversation concerning the video game Metal Gear Solid V.

[Solas]

https://www.youtube....h?v=VQERdXvKTnI

 

This is some real high-brow art right here. Clearly an artist expressing his deepest emotions in the way a business like BioWare wouldn't understand. All BioWare understands is fanservice, and appealing to the lowest common denominator.

 

the fresh hell did i just watch

[CronoDragoon]

TPP is had some pretty meh boss fights compared to the other MGS games.

 

http://i.imgur.com/ezJvyq0.webm

http://i.imgur.com/3j1TDdd.webm

 

 

the fresh hell did i just watch

 

True love.

[AlanC9]

the fresh hell did i just watch

It's not quite as dopey a scene as it looks at first. It's supposed to be a rare humanizing moment for Big Boss, or something like that.

[Remix-General Aetius]

some people should have their thread-making privileges revoked. the OP is one of them.

[AlanC9]

You said "Who gives a damn about the model? She's a model paid to do a job. (As a reminder, this makes you sound like a ******). She was not just a model, this is false, hence why I told you that she also sang that rather lovely piece, and was also the voice actress for Quiet. Credit where credit is due, to do otherwise is to be rude, you don't seem to have a concept of rudeness it's rather disturbing.

I still don't see how any of this is relevant to the topic. If she'd written the game or designed the outfit she'd be relevant, but she didn't. Nor do I see how anything I've said could possibly be rude to her. What did I say about her that was unflattering? I'm not at all interested in her as an individual, but there are billions of people I'm not at all interested in as individuals. I certainly didn't say that there was anything wrong with being a model. I'll grant that I didn't credit her for stuff I didn't know she'd done, but that stuff's still irrelevant.

 

No, I've no interest in finding justice in matters of 'culture', unless they lead to a physical act that breaks the law. Everything that I write here either amounts to my opinion, or addressing 'how' people think. First of all there is nothing wrong with silliness in art, Joyce's Ulysses is silly, that is most certainly not a slight against it. Shakespeare's Henry the 4^th is silly, that is not a slight against it. Silliness is something almost joyful in human experience, in literature it is usually celebrated. When it came to Metal Gear, gamers used to celebrate the silliness, and then this generation discovered political correctness...

[font=times new roman', serif][size=3]As for your constant use of the word stupid, as a famous Roman once wrote (I think it was Plautus) "Ah, lassitudinem Hercle verba tua mihi addunt, enicas." As for all this other stuff, this 'conversation' with you has degraded into ad hominem, and cherry picking. Joosten herself wearing a bikini in her actual life to an office job etc., is a separate issue, and if someone tried to tell her not to do so, or proceeded to lecture her or what have you, that is both a legal issue, and a moral issue and is separate from this conversation concerning the video game Metal Gear Solid V.

I see. So I was right with my guess upthread that this sort of silly fanservice is part of what MGS is about, and you're just sticking up for the silliness. And yes, wearing a bikini to an office is the same issue, because inappropriate dress is silly too. (Whether it's stupid or not depends on the office, and on how much you want to keep the job.) Unless you figured she'd be wearing the bikini to make some sort of political statement? I was presuming it was done from sheer cluelessness when I proposed the example, but I suppose I should have made that explicit for you.

How would wearing a bikini to an office, or telling someone that doing so is a dumb idea and she shouldn't do it, be a moral issue? It might conceivably become a legal issue if inappropriate dress is a termination offense there, or some such, but what on earth does this have to do with morals? And why are you still going on about "stupidity"? I already agreed with you that silliness was the better word for the concept. Yeah, I know you needed to work that Latin bit in somehow, but it's coming across as a bit forced.

You sure this is a generational thing? Those IGN guys didn't look too young to me. And I'm way older than them and I never had any use for silly fanservice. And again, it's not about political correctness, it's about thinking that this sort of thing looks stupid. (I'm reverting to using that word because now we're talking about silliness that didn't work.)

Anyway, the actual issue for this board is whether ME:A needs more silliness. Are you voting yes?

[Andres Hendrix]

I still don't see how any of this is relevant to the topic. If she'd written the game or designed the outfit she'd be relevant, but she didn't. Nor do I see how anything I've said could possibly be rude to her. What did I say about her that was unflattering? I'm not at all interested in her as an individual, but there are billions of people I'm not at all interested in as individuals. I certainly didn't say that there was anything wrong with being a model. I'll grant that I didn't credit her for stuff I didn't know she'd done, but that stuff's still irrelevant.

 
I see. So I was right with my guess upthread that this sort of silly fanservice is part of what MGS is about, and you're just sticking up for the silliness. And yes, wearing a bikini to an office is the same issue, because inappropriate dress is silly too. (Whether it's stupid or not depends on the office, and on how much you want to keep the job.) Unless you figured she'd be wearing the bikini to make some sort of political statement? I was presuming it was done from sheer cluelessness when I proposed the example, but I suppose I should have made that explicit for you.

How would wearing a bikini to an office, or telling someone that doing so is a dumb idea and she shouldn't do it, be a moral issue? It might conceivably become a legal issue if inappropriate dress is a termination offense there, or some such, but what on earth does this have to do with morals? And why are you still going on about "stupidity"? I already agreed with you that silliness was the better word for the concept. Yeah, I know you needed to work that Latin bit in somehow, but it's coming across as a bit forced.

You sure this is a generational thing? Those IGN guys didn't look too young to me. And I'm way older than them and I never had any use for silly fanservice. And again, it's not about political correctness, it's about thinking that this sort of thing looks stupid. (I'm reverting to using that word because now we're talking about silliness that didn't work.)

Anyway, the actual issue for this board is whether ME:A needs more silliness. Are you voting yes?

"I still don't see how any of this is relevant to the topic" I don't see why you are saying this, I already answered this. I did not say silly 'fan service' that is you putting words in my mouth. Moreover, I wrote silliness = joy which has always been important in literature. Moreover, you have no good argument or proposal as to why Metal Gear's 'silliness' fails. I am guessing that your way of thinking is like killroys "it's stupid because it's Metal Gear!"

Any dialogue that deals with how people 'express themselves' e.g. what someone wears etc., is already dealing with morals, it becomes an 'issue' when someone tries to tell someone else how they should or should not express themselves.

Good Latin is never forced, you are a monotonous person, the quote is about monotony.

Yes it is generational; about twenty years ago you did not see gamers saying the same things about MGS1, which still had that classic Kojima quirkiness. Political correctness is really more of a trend now in gaming journalism; any 'older' gaming journalists probably have to pick up on the trend to survive.

[AlanC9]

I don't see why you are saying this, I already answered this.

You said it was relevant because you thought people were being mean to the model. Nobody was. Nobody said anything about her.
 

I did not say silly 'fan service' that is you putting words in my mouth.

No, that's me describing what we're talking about. You can describe it some other way -- say, "quirkiness" or some such --- if you prefer, but that might also cover a bunch of stuff that I haven't been talking about, and would either like or be indifferent to.
 

Moreover, I wrote silliness = joy which has always been important in literature. Moreover, you have no good argument or proposal as to why Metal Gear's 'silliness' fails.

Well, that's the issue right there. I don't think that silliness always equals joy, and this is one of the times where it isn't producing any. I don't need an argument to judge that Quiet's look failed to produce joy. Neither did the IGN guys. Of course, just because I think it's stupid doesn't mean I'm making argument against you liking it. (BTW, I did get some joy out of the rain scene, but that's thanks to the Ocelot version.)
 

I am guessing that your way of thinking is like killroys "it's stupid because it's Metal Gear!"

Not even close. Again, I'm with the IGN guys. That outfit's super-dumb, and kind of unfortunate, but it's not a serious problem and the game's still OK.
 

Any dialogue that deals with how people 'express themselves' e.g. what someone wears etc., is already dealing with morals, it becomes an 'issue' when someone tries to tell someone else how they should or should not express themselves.

"You shouldn't dress like that; nobody's going to take you seriously" isn't a moral critique, or even a statement about morals. It's practical advice.
 

Good Latin is never forced, you are a monotonous person, the quote is about monotony.

Re-opening a settled point is a strange way to try to call someone monotonous.
 

Yes it is generational; about twenty years ago you did not see gamers saying the same things about MGS1, which still had that classic Kojima quirkiness. Political correctness is really more of a trend now in gaming journalism; any 'older' gaming journalists probably have to pick up on the trend to survive.

I'm willing to take your word for this. Maybe this stuff would have gone over better twenty years ago; I don't see any objective way to measure it.If more people are coming around to seeing silly fanservice as a bit annoying, I'm happy with that. Maybe ME:A won't have any more ass shots.

[Degrees1991]

Nah no thanks lacks diversity for me 1 reason why I like Bioware.