459 réponses à ce sujet

[o Ventus]

Nobody ever said that,

 

Ho ho ho, not yet. Not in this thread anyhow. It's been said elsewhere plenty of times.

 

it's just that games are more often than not aimed at that demographic, so developpers put things that they think will appeal to that demographic like omnisexual blue alien babes or eye -rolling buttshots.

 

 

And that's pandering, but it's almost never called out like it's done for other demographics.

 

You really don't remember all the criticism that's been levied at the gratuitous ass-shots of characters like, say, Miranda? Because I do. I even levied some myself, because I think they are stupid.

[Fidite Nemini]

Forgive me for being late and quite possibly regurgitating a point that was made a dozen times over, but:
 

Great cinematography, great dialogue, well written themes, great focus on gameplay...some of the few things Kojima San would have given this franchise, but he needs about 5 plus years to actually complete the game and without publisher meddling.

 
Kojima and focus on gameplay? In a single sentence that isn't saying those two are mutually exclusive???
 
Wat.?

[Vapaa]

Ho ho ho, not yet. Not in this thread anyhow. It's been said elsewhere plenty of times.

 
Let's not get sidetracked then (well, more than we already are).
 

You really don't remember all the criticism that's been levied at the gratuitous ass-shots of characters like, say, Miranda? Because I do. I even levied some myself, because I think they are stupid.

I do, I'm talking about why they were included, it was to appeal to a supposed straight male player, that demographic is the one who gets the most pandering.

It's not about "grr straight male are evil", it just seem disigenuous that anyone besides that demographic gets accused to be pandered to when they get the tiniest bone, but straight male pandering is more often that not glossed over (even if that's changing, like with the whole Quiet fallout).

[wolfhowwl]

Forgive me for being late and quite possibly regurgitating a point that was made a dozen times over, but:
 

 
Kojima and focus on gameplay? In a single sentence that isn't saying those two are mutually exclusive???
 
Wat.?

 

The "great dialogue" and "well-written themes" with "Kojima" is a howler as well tbh.

 

Oh and the direction in that Skull Face jeep ride sure was amazing lol.

[Sanunes]

You really don't remember all the criticism that's been levied at the gratuitous ass-shots of characters like, say, Miranda? Because I do. I even levied some myself, because I think they are stupid.

 

I agree that the amount of camera type focused on Miranda that way felt like pandering, but I don't think including people of differing sexual orientations would be pandering which seems to be the complaint I see the most.  It has nothing to do with how the camera focuses on the characters or how they act in the game, just simply because they are included. It does bug me when people will make comments using percentages of how many people are in certain types of relationships and BioWare needs to change how many of each type of relationship there is in the game to match that, to me that is a group of people wanting to be pandered to.

[o Ventus]

 
Let's not get sidetracked then (well, more than we already are).
 
I do, I'm talking about why they were included, it was to appeal to a supposed straight male player, that demographic is the one who gets the most pandering.

It's not about "grr straight male are evil", it just seem disigenuous that anyone besides that demographic gets accused to be pandered to when they get the tiniest bone, but straight male pandering is more often that not glossed over (even if that's changing, like with the whole Quiet fallout).

 

Straight people receive the most "pandering" because let's face it: most people are straight. A huge majority of people, in fact. A tremendous majority. While the true numbers are not and will likely never be known as they are exactly, most of the estimates I've seen place the percentage of gay people at somewhere between 10% and 15%, give or take a few percent, with 15% erring on the side of generosity. Your mileage may vary, that's just what I've seen.

 

Straight "pandering" is glossed over, as you say, because it is the norm, for lack of a better term. Again, heterosexual people far, FAR outnumber people who are homosexual. There is an evolutionary reason for this (one I hope I don't need to actually point out). That's not to say that there is anything wrong with people who are homosexual. I personally don't care either way which way someone swings, we kicked our biological need to constantly reproduce long ago, but the drive will always be in our brains, hence the "pandering" that you notice. The mere existence of heterosexual material is not pandering, like how the mere existence of homosexual material is not pandering. Gratuitous depiction of said material clearly demonstrated for the purpose of titillation, however, is bad. It's almost always out of place (unless you're watching porn or something) and is often so low in quality and unrealistic to the point of comedy.

 

I dislike pandering in any direction, I don't give much of a s*** who it's for.

[Ryzaki]

The thing is Miranda's buttshot could've been perfect...if it was restricted to her romance. **** Shepard even has a "I can't admire your body or your mind." dialogue. We couldn't gotten a pan over it then?

 

Instead it's shoved in a freaking important conversation about her sister turning something that should've been a serious moment into a "are you seriously shoving her ass in my face right now?" that for me is what turned it from acceptable fanservice to stupid tripe. You only get the bull riding comments in non serious moments (save that one Cory pun and he was punning on everyone so it was at least consistent).

[Steelcan]

The thing is Miranda's buttshot could've been perfect...if it was restricted to her romance. **** Shepard even has a "I can't admire your body or your mind." dialogue. We couldn't gotten a pan over it then?

 

Instead it's shoved in a freaking important conversation about her sister turning something that should've been a serious moment into a "are you seriously shoving her ass in my face right now?" that for me is what turned it from acceptable fanservice to stupid tripe. You only get the bull riding comments in non serious moments (save that one Cory pun and he was punning on everyone so it was at least consistent).

but its so round and perfect!

[Ryzaki]

but its so round and perfect!

 

and it would've fit perfectly in a romantic context with Shep admiring it.

[Vapaa]

Straight people receive the most "pandering" because let's face it: most people are straight. A huge majority of people, in fact. A tremendous majority. While the true numbers are not and will likely never be known as they are exactly, most of the estimates I've seen place the percentage of gay people at somewhere between 10% and 15%, give or take a few percent, with 15% erring on the side of generosity. Your mileage may vary, that's just what I've seen.

So I take you're agreeing that there is such a thing as straight male pandering ?

Straight "pandering" is glossed over, as you say, because it is the norm, for lack of a better term.

A lot of unsavory things were once the norm, just because it's "the norm" doesn't mean it can't be questionned and replaced with something better.

Again, heterosexual people far, FAR outnumber people who are homosexual. There is an evolutionary reason for this (one I hope I don't need to actually point out). That's not to say that there is anything wrong with people who are homosexual. I personally don't care either way which way someone swings, we kicked our biological need to constantly reproduce long ago, but the drive will always be in our brains, hence the "pandering" that you notice. The mere existence of heterosexual material is not pandering, like how the mere existence of homosexual material is not pandering. Gratuitous depiction of said material clearly demonstrated for the purpose of titillation, however, is bad. It's almost always out of place (unless you're watching porn or something) and is often so low in quality and unrealistic to the point of comedy.

Never said that either, my point is that when content aimed at a demographic that is not th straight male one, it's accused as pandering, where in fact most of the overall pandering is aimed at straight males.

[StarcloudSWG]

Great cinematography, great dialogue, well written themes, great focus on gameplay...some of the few things Kojima San would have given this franchise, but he needs about 5 plus years to actually complete the game and without publisher meddling.

 

Don't forget half-hour cutscenes for every five minutes of gameplay.

[o Ventus]

So I take you're agreeing that there is such a thing as straight male pandering ?

 

I never contested that the point, I'm just saying it doesn't happen nearly as much as people like to complain that it does.

 

 

 

A lot of unsavory things were once the norm, just because it's "the norm" doesn't mean it can't be questionned and replaced with something better.

 

The biological and evolutionary need to reproduce will never NOT be the norm (and thus the presence of heterosexual material) will never NOT be the norm. That's one of the most basic and fundamental things in human existence.
 

 

Never said that either, my point is that when content aimed at a demographic that is not th straight male one, it's accused as pandering,

 

An assertion, not a fact. There are just as many (actually more) people who don't say anything about it, either because they support it or they don't care. Because as it turns out, not everybody is a homophobe. Most people actually are not.

 

 

 

where in fact most of the overall pandering is aimed at straight males.

 

Unless you're assuming that every white person is intrinsically racist (which, since white people are the source of literally all the world's problems, we are), there's no need to qualify it with "straight WHITE males". And once more, this is an assertion. How much of it is *pandering* as opposed to simple expression?

[Giantdeathrobot]

Can people define pandering. Im curious what it means to different people. It might help determine where people are coming from instead of just calling everyone a SJW or racist/sexist/homophobe.

 

Easy.

 

Pandering is having a demographic in mind that is not me when creating content. Doing that is bad and should be denounced with force and verve.

 

Doing stuff for my demographic, however, is fine because it means that the artist is freely expressing their creative licence and isn't being influenced by those people who want to be pandered to. This is good and should be encouraged.

 

The above was sarcasm. But what isn't sarcasm, is that a lot of people actually think like this. As soon as I see ''pandering'' used in pretty much any context, regardless of who says it, I immediately picture the person saying ''whaaa I didn't get mine''. It's the most lazy, dishonest accusation one can ever levy at an artistic product if you ask me.

 

Everything panders to someone. It's called having a demographic. It doesn't suddenly become bad when that someone isn't you (as in, a general you). 

 

As for Kojima, I just would have prefered that he owed up to it and just said that Quiet was designed that way because he likes sexed-up characters and knows that bewbs sell. And the fact that the stupidly half-assed explanation of her ''powers'' is par for the course for Metal Gear Solid tells you everything you need to know abot how seriously the series should be taken IMO.

[Panda]

As for Kojima, I just would have prefered that he owed up to it and just said that Quiet was designed that way because he likes sexed-up characters and knows that bewbs sell. And the fact that the stupidly half-assed explanation of her ''powers'' is par for the course for Metal Gear Solid tells you everything you need to know abot how seriously the series should be taken IMO.

 

Actually he has already said that Quiet's design was sexy cause he asked artist to make it sexy in order to encourage cosplay and make figures sell.

 

http://www.polygon.c...ay-hideo-kojima

[AlanC9]

The biological and evolutionary need to reproduce will never NOT be the norm (and thus the presence of heterosexual material) will never NOT be the norm. That's one of the most basic and fundamental things in human existence.

It's not hard to imagine ways that this might prove to be untrue in the long run. Ever read Joe Haldeman's The Forever War?

[AlanC9]

Actually he has already said that Quiet's design was sexy cause he asked artist to make it sexy in order to encourage cosplay and make figures sell.

 

http://www.polygon.c...ay-hideo-kojima

 

 

That's even worse than doing it "because he likes sexed-up characters and knows that bewbs sell."

[KaiserShep]

That's even worse than doing it "because he likes sexed-up characters and knows that bewbs sell."

Imagine one artist coming up with a design for a slim breather suit that feeds her fresh air no matter the environment. He'd give them such a pinch.

[Mihura]

No thanks.

[The Hierophant]

Damned good cosplays though.

[Fidite Nemini]

It's not hard to imagine ways that this might prove to be untrue in the long run. Ever read Joe Haldeman's The Forever War?

 

Yup, pretty much every concieved derivative of transhumanism says hi right now.

[Arcian]

Great cinematography, great dialogue, well written themes, great focus on gameplay...some of the few things Kojima San would have given this franchise, but he needs about 5 plus years to actually complete the game and without publisher meddling.

Woah now, I love MGS as much as the next guy, but let's not pretend like its dialogue is great.

[Panda]

Damned good cosplays though.

 

I like DA's and ME's more, usually more detailed and more work involved.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Woah now, I love MGS as much as the next guy, but let's not pretend like its dialogue is great.

 

I never felt like the writing overall in those games was any good.

 

Admitedly I've only ever completed MGS3 out of the entire series. But while the cinematic direction was usually very good (better be, with how much cutscenes they had), the dialog and writing itself never was anything special to me. To say nothing of how silly the entire setting is, with nanomachines turning people into vampires being only the very tip of the iceberg.

 

Beyond the now memetic fact that the main character existed to repeat words every so often, it seems like Kojima basically threw concepts in his game and never really thought about them. They're just here because ''oooh, concepts!'' and the people in websites like IGN who are used to Call of Duty level writing gobble it up and pretend this is genius that makes Kojima gaming's one true auteur.

 

I mean, I'm not going to pretend Bioware are Hemingways reborn, but they actually seem able to discern what themes, tone, consistency, and natural dialog is most of the time. The Dragon Age writing team moreso than Mass Effect's, sadly.

[Erstus]

Pandering to any demographic or group is always a mistake - Simple as that

 

Develop a consistent and quality story with well-written and developed characters that fit. Don't make a certain character just for the sake of having him/her.

[wolfhowwl]

Kojima's hackery with MGSV went so far that even the fanboys at NeoGAF, the people that voted ****** Metal Gear Solid 4 as their GOTY (twice!), are turning on him this time.