83 réponses à ce sujet

[Former_Fiend]

This is a stretchy kind of hypothetical. 

 

"Don't do this, but if you do this, do it this way." 

 

I dunno. As far as I'm concerned, the question of whether to canonize any ending is is answered by "don't," full stop. I follow your logic, it just seems superfluous to me, consider how really bad an idea canonizing any ending seems to me. 

 

For a wrestling analogy, it's like trying to figure out the best way to end the Undertaker's undefeated streak. The correct answer? Don't do it. But they did it, and the way they did it was wrong. And if you're gonna do wrong, do wrong right.

 

 

You mean, that doesn't happen to everyone else all the time? 

 

Normally when Hana and I disagree on something, we just flat disagree. This is progress.

 

I agree with her that canonizing Refusal is one of the worst things they could do. Just my stance is that canonizing Destroy, Synthesis, and Control are all even worse options than this.

[Lady Artifice]

Less bad than trying to face up to Synthesis in any sort of intelligent or reasonable fashion.

 

They only had to talk about it for several minutes last time and it was a colossally stupid mess. They try to do any real writing with it, it's only going to be worse.

 

Which is why Fiend's core position is the most logical option. Arc leaves before the events of the ME3 ending, they avoid dealing with that chaos. 

[BabyPuncher]

If they plan on continuing this story for any serious length of time, I very, very highly doubt they're going to be able to ignore such a massive problem forever.

[Lady Artifice]

 

For a wrestling analogy, it's like trying to figure out the best way to end the Undertaker's undefeated streak. The correct answer? Don't do it. But they did it, and the way they did it was wrong. And if you're gonna do wrong, do wrong right.

 

 

Ha. Okay, I get you. 

 

Although, and please forgive me for this brief rabbit trail, I saw this thanks to you and I agree with this guy. 

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

Normally when Hana and I disagree on something, we just flat disagree. This is progress.

 

I agree with her that canonizing Refusal is one of the worst things they could do. Just my stance is that canonizing Destroy, Synthesis, and Control are all even worse options than this.

 

I follow. They're all less practical in the end. 

[Vortex13]

I can see the logic in such a choice if an ending had to canonized.

 

Out of all the possible scenarios, Refusal makes the most sense as to why people would be fleeing the galaxy. In all the other endings there is absolutely no reason to shoot for Andromeda since we have defeated the Reaper threat, and the Milky Way has less than 1% of it explored. 

[Former_Fiend]

Ha. Okay, I get you. 

 

Although, and please forgive me for this brief rabbit trail, I saw this thanks to you and I agree with this guy. 

 

 

 

Yeah, Adam isn't the first one to come up with the idea, but he's given the best pitch for it I've ever heard. Rewatching that video was partly what inspired me to make this thread.

[Lady Artifice]

If they plan on continuing this story for any serious length of time, I very, very highly doubt they're going to be able to ignore such a massive problem forever.

 

They're going to have to, if they go with their promise of not overwriting the ending choices. The simple solution is to never return to the Milky Way, however much that infuriates a portion of the fan base.

 

They already miscalculated with the ME3 ending. The mistake has been made, there's no way out of that. Any follow up now is more damage control than solution.

[Former_Fiend]

I think there's an argument to be made that they should have let ME rest after the trilogy wrapped and either picked up with Jade Empire or worked on a new IP. I don't know how much continuing on with the series is Bioware's decision and how much of it is EA's.

 

Me, I'm willing to give it a chance. I think there are more stories to be told in this universe. But we'll see.

[BabyPuncher]

They're going to have to, if they go with their promise of not overwriting the ending choices. The simple solution is to never return to the Milky Way, however much that infuriates a portion of the fan base.

 

They already miscalculated with the ME3 ending. The mistake has been made, there's no way out of that. Any follow up now is more damage control than solution.

 

I agree. Anything they do is a salvage operation. But I don't think they ever made a promise not to canonize a choice. They didn't follow up on Shepard dying in ME 2.

[dreamgazer]

My favorite premise thus far is that the firing of the Crucible created a temporary wormhole that immediately propelled some of the ships of the united fleet to Andromeda before it collapsed. That would get you whatever species they want to include, satisfy any technological impediments to intergalactic travel, and also mean that you are stuck with no way to ever return to the Milky Way.

It also eliminates the idea that everyone's in Andromeda because they wanted to run away from the Reapers. Those folks really didn't ask for this.

[Killdren88]

Why would they make the metaphorical middle finger canon?

[Eryri]

 

snip

 

Essentially, it comes down to one word; stakes. In any other ending, even a low-ems Destroy ending where the Galaxy has entered into a dark age, the simple fact remains that in any other ending than Refusal, life and civilization continues to exist – and in some cases, thrive –  in the Milky Way. If we fail to establish a foot hold in Andromeda, if we all die, then that will be sad, but life goes on. 

 

But with the Refusal ending, we are the last hope for the galactic civilization. Not just for humanity, but all the species of the Milky Way. If we fail, it's all over. The stakes just shoot up dramatically and, in theory, our investment in the story follows. 

 

It also gives us a more tangible motivation than just “explore”.  You can still have the wonder of exploring strange new worlds in this set up, but you also have the drive of desperation and survival. We've lost once, we cannot lose again. If we can't reach a peaceful arrangement with the locals, we can't just turn around and go home; we don't have a home anymore, and we need to claim one.

 

snip

 

The issue of declining stakes had crossed my mind as well. The original trilogy has, in a strange way, spoiled us in this regard. We've gone from the all important saviour of the galaxy in the OT to apparently playing as some rookie nobody exploring the suburbs of Andromeda. It's hard for that not to feel like demotion. 

 

It is, of course, possible that Bioware will write such compelling characters that we will become deeply invested in their personal fates even without the possibility of galactic annihilation - but I suspect it will be a bit of an uphill struggle.

[Former_Fiend]

Why would they make the metaphorical middle finger canon?

 

So that it may stand eternal as a monument to their utter contempt for all of us.

 

Also because from logistical and narrative stand points, it works the best going forward into Andromeda.

[Hazegurl]

I'm glad none of the endings matter. I say the stakes have already been raised enough.  I see the Andromeda trip being one way anyway.  And if they leave during the invasion, particularly around the time Shepard loses the artifact needed to finish the Crucible.  Then there is no reason for anyone on board the colony ship to think that Shepard succeeded.

 

But I also like the wormhole theory.

[Kevinc62]

I think there's an argument to be made that they should have let ME rest after the trilogy wrapped and either picked up with Jade Empire or worked on a new IP. I don't know how much continuing on with the series is Bioware's decision and how much of it is EA's.

 

Me, I'm willing to give it a chance. I think there are more stories to be told in this universe. But we'll see.

 

Same here. I wish they had make it a new series, but that's problematic, since it isn't easy to create a logical semi-cohesive universe out of nowhere, especially a sci fi one. Most end up collapsing or breaking it's own rules, which is exactly what happened with ME3 ending.

 

By now I don't really care anymore, the endings came, mess everything it up and are done. I already bury it and I'm just gonna see what new stories we have and judge them by their own merit. Hope for the best and preparte for the worst, I'd say. 

[dreamgazer]

We've gone from the all important saviour of the galaxy in the OT to apparently playing as some rookie nobody exploring the suburbs of Andromeda. It's hard for that not to feel like demotion.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

We also don't know about the protagonist's (service?) history prior to Andromeda, either. Not being on the same level as Shepard doesn't mean they don't have a background.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

If they plan on continuing this story for any serious length of time, I very, very highly doubt they're going to be able to ignore such a massive problem forever.

 

See they can because by 2022 it will be 10 years since that horrific ending and it could be stated that "The Crucible destroyed the intelligence that controlled the reapers. The reapers lost all organization and became less. The allied forces invented a weapon much  like the  Quarians used against the Geth but this weapon destroyed the reaper cores ending any threat of indoctrination, and they won a conventional victory over the reapers." Retcon for the win.

[Lady Artifice]

I agree. Anything they do is a salvage operation. But I don't think they ever made a promise not to canonize a choice. They didn't follow up on Shepard dying in ME 2.

 

Promise might be a strong word for it, since it implies an immunity to changing circumstances, but that's my impression of their stated intention to respect player choices. I don't think they have any intention of ever revisiting the Milky Way in this Franchise. 

[timebean]

There is a way they could address that.

 

In Andromeda, we're desperate, we're on the run, but we're also angry. And I mean Javik angry.

 

What if our goal isn't to simply make a new home in Andromeda. What if the plan is to establish Andromeda as a staging point for a counter assault. Build up, advance, study Reaper tech, Andromeda tech, until we can come back shooting just in time for the next Harvest?

 

Then, not only do we preserve the Milky Way races, get all the new and exciting Andromeda races, but we also get introduced to all the species of the next cycle in the Milky Way.

 

Not that this doesn't have a plethora of problems with it, but I've put all of five minutes of thought into it, so with a little hammering out the details, there could be something here.

I like that idea!  If they did canonize refusal, then this would make for a much more interesting game...ie, let's rebuild to fight again! And I like the idea of being  "Javik-angry"!

 

But on the whole, i hope they do not canonize an ending.  Kinda ruins the whole move to another galaxy, imo.

[Former_Fiend]

See they can because by 2022 it will be 10 years since that horrific ending and it could be stated that "The Crucible destroyed the intelligence that controlled the reapers. The reapers lost all organization and became less. The allied forces invented a weapon much  like the  Quarians used against the Geth but this weapon destroyed the reaper cores ending any threat of indoctrination, and they won a conventional victory over the reapers." Retcon for the win.

 

That's actually a very good point.

 

Time breeds a degree of apathy. Ten years down the line, there's only so much anger the real sticklers are going to be able to muster. If nothing else, by that point, everyone would have to admit that the majority of the player base will have not played ME3 so it doesn't matter nearly as much.

[CHRrOME]

They already said they want to "respect" player choice and that's why they wont pick any ending as canon. 

 

Now, this is a typical case of "I'm going to fix it someday, just not now" since there's no way you could totally ignore the MW forever. In my opinion they should pick one ending as canon and I prefer destruction myself, but that's me.

 

So for now, I believe they will simply ignore this matter until they manage to figure how the hell fix things up without canonizing decisions. And the reason is I believe, they wont admit they've f*cked things up big time (twice, if we take into account the extended ending) with those endings, so as an excuse to maintain their pride, they simply say that they want to honor our decision.

[Former_Fiend]

Well, like I said, I'm of the opinion that they definitely should not canonize an ending; they absolutely can ignore the Milky Way forever, at least until making a game that's essentially three games in one becomes a viable option.

 

And, again, like I said, I personally prefer Destruction, high EMS and Paragon, as the best ending to the trilogy. The finality of it, the themes of no victory without sacrifice, the optimism of our ability to rebuild on our own without Reapers doing it for us; I think thematically it's the best capstone to the original trilogy.

 

And if they had left it with the trilogy and only continued the setting with prequels and interquels, that'd be one thing. But going forward into Andromeda, Refusal works better than any of the other endings if they have to canonize one(which they don't, and shouldn't.)

[Mcfly616]

And, again, like I said, I personally prefer Destruction, high EMS and Paragon, as the best ending to the trilogy. The finality of it, the themes of no victory without sacrifice, the optimism of our ability to rebuild on our own without Reapers doing it for us; I think thematically it's the best capstone to the original trilogy.

 Optimism....or arrogance. To think we know better than a billion year old super intelligence whose primary focus has been to observe organic/synthetic life over that span. To assume we can defy nature. 

 

 

Quite human of us, really.

[Former_Fiend]

 Optimism....or arrogance. To think we know better than a billion year old super intelligence whose primary focus has been to observe organic/synthetic life over that span. To assume we can defy nature. 

 

 

Quite human of us, really.

 

Optimism often is arrogant, or blind. 

 

Of course, when that billion year old intelligence comes up with 'yo dawg, I heard you don't want synthetics to kill organics, so I built these synthetics to kill organics so they don't build synthetics that will kill organics", I don't consider it to be a huge stretch to imagine that we can do better.

[KaiserShep]

I guess it would be fitting to canonize the world state that proves once and for all that Shepard is dumb.