It was long because it had plenty of story and time sinks. Eliminating the "time sinks" doesn't eliminate the other side-content that extends the narrative, to which there was plenty.
DA:I's story was long? If you say so.... I mean, the story alone is what, about 20 - 25 hours long? Maybe we define "long" for a story differently. Maybe it just feels longer than it actually was. *shrugs* I thought it was on the shorter side for an "epic" type of RPG.
20-25 hours for the story? That's not half bad, compared to other Bioware games like Mass Effect 1, Dragon Age 2, KotOR, Jade Empire.
There is plenty of basis for drawing distinction. It might not be an exact science, but I can tell when I'm reading a pamphlet and when I'm reading a short story. The relevant distinction is what I've always said it is: artistic effort and intent.
I can quite clearly see the intent behind a deluge of repetitive collection quests: to pad out the game world, and I can tell when there is some clear creative initiative in quests as well.
That's a metagame concern. When I'm in-game, I don't perceive the game's content as game content. It's all just facts about the world in which my character lives.
If my character encounters an opportunity to do something, he either does it or not based on its merits. There's no consideration of why it's there, because the explanations that are correct aren't accessible from his perspective.
Not terribly surprised that one went over you head. Oh well.
I know what I like. I know what I don't.
This just depends. If that time is collecting junk and other brain dead activities, then no thanks. And that's why the OP said "time sinks" specifically. DA:I was not long because it had a lot of story, it was long because it had tons of time sinks.
It's all story. Everything you can do in the game is potentially part of the story. The thing that makes it part of the story or not is whether you do it.
Design intent is irrelevant. Design intent never matters.
I think they'd also need to adjust the way they write the protag's dialogue.
They're writing a lot of it like screenplay segments at this point, with expectations of VA and animations. Also, there's quite a bit of autodialogue included.
The autodialogue is the only real problem, and I'm content to ignore that. If I didn't choose for my character to say it, I'd rather not know it happened. If I never hear it, it may as well not have.
The VA direction can only matter if the paraphrases are inadequate for making the choice in the first place. BioWare insists they are not; therefore, the voice doesn't matter.
The animations would still be there. I'm not asking for it to skip the scene - just mute the voice.
That's a metagame concern. When I'm in-game, I don't perceive the game's content as game content. It's all just facts about the world in which my character lives.
If my character encounters an opportunity to do something, he either does it or not based on its merits. There's no consideration of why it's there, because the explanations that are correct aren't accessible from his perspective.
Yes, it's a metagame concern, one that I shouldn't be having. Unfortunately, I and many others can't just ignore the fact that filler is filler.
It's all story. Everything you can do in the game is potentially part of the story. The thing that makes it part of the story or not is whether you do it.
Design intent is irrelevant. Design intent never matters.
Then you discredit these games as an expressive art form. Whether you care or not, BioWare are trying to tell a story, so I'm going to judge the entire game within that context. Neither Dragon Age nor Mass Effect are just sandboxes, they're worlds that contain stories. As storytellers, it's BIoWare's job to try to create every aspect of their games around those stories thematically and if they can, narratively. That's the job they made for themselves, so that's the job they have to complete.
The player shouldn't have to alter their own perceptions to such a degree simply to enjoy a game's content at a base level. Yes, every artistic medium requires some investment on the consumer's end, but the designers have to bridge the rest of the way. It should never be my fault that I didn't RP hard enough if I can be so easily immersed by the rest of the game.
Yes, it's a metagame concern, one that I shouldn't be having. Unfortunately, I and many others can't just ignore the fact that filler is filler.
Then you discredit these games as an expressive art form. Whether you care or not, BioWare are trying to tell a story, so I'm going to judge the entire game within that context. Neither Dragon Age nor Mass Effect are just sandboxes, they're worlds that contain stories. As storytellers, it's BIoWare's job to try to create every aspect of their games around those stories thematically and if they can, narratively. That's the job they made for themselves, so that's the job they have to complete.
The player shouldn't have to alter their own perceptions to such a degree simply to enjoy a game's content at a base level. Yes, every artistic medium requires some investment on the consumer's end, but the designers have to bridge the rest of the way. It should never be my fault that I didn't RP hard enough if I can be so easily immersed by the rest of the game.
That's what roleplaying is: adopting the perspective of your character.
I will never stop playing these games like roleplaying games, and I will never stop demanding that they let me do that.
You realise you're criticizing BioWare for failing to meet a standard you say they set for themselves, and yet in DAI you insist that they didn't even try. If the intent of that content was that it be filler, then they weren't trying to include that content as part of the story. Given that, in what way did they set the story as their primary objective?
Your argument here is incoherent.
Then you discredit these games as an expressive art form.
Yes. I dispute that such a thing is even possible.
Content is content. Any categorization beyond that is a fabrication.
I did a DAI playthrough in 10 hours 26 minutes
I did a ME1 playthrough in 3 hours 22 minutes
I did the whole ME trilogy in one sitting that took me just under 17 hours and still got the best ending
I have done playthroughs completing everything in the game
For me it adds replay value.
Of course, for me, the time is no problem
Yes, it's a metagame concern, one that I shouldn't be having. Unfortunately, I and many others can't just ignore the fact that filler is filler.
I know what I like. I know what I don't.
Zero for two... and aspirations of perfect personal self-awareness to boot.
What a boring approach to life.
A vastly less frustrating approach to life.Zero for two... and aspirations of perfect personal self-awareness to boot.
What a boring approach to life.
I'm getting a little fuzzy about the definition of "filler" we're using here. Content that doesn't advance the main plot? That'd be, what, 90% of Skyrim. Do arbitrary obstacles along the main path count?
No, not everything needs to advance the main plot, but it does need to seem thematically connected, relevant to the world, or important to gameplay. It certainly helps to be part of the main plot, but it isn't necessary.
Repetition of simple tasks is generally the easiest filler to spot. Even if the type of sidequest was thematically relevant to begin with, after a while the point has been taken. Unless those sidequests change up their gameplay, there's no reason for me to experience them. As a heuristic, I say that filler is content that's far more about the reward than the journey. If the sack of virtual money is the only reason you're doing something, then what you're doing doesn't really need to exist.
In the case of Skyrim I might categorize a lot of it as filler; however, Skyrim doesn't even try to tell much of a story so pacing is less of an issue, and the random stuff lying around the world tell little stories of their own. Even each dungeon tries to have some puzzle or vignette that differentiates itself from others.
That's what roleplaying is: adopting the perspective of your character.
I will never stop playing these games like roleplaying games, and I will never stop demanding that they let me do that.
I'm not asking for less roleplaying, I'm just saying it shouldn't be an excuse for laziness. BioWare are trying to tell a story, so it's their burden to keep me interested throughout. Roleplaying should only enhance my experience. It shouldn't be a requirement, especially if it's to ignore poor design.
You realise you're criticizing BioWare for failing to meet a standard you say they set for themselves, and yet in DAI you insist that they didn't even try. If the intent of that content was that it be filler, then they weren't trying to include that content as part of the story. Given that, in what way did they set the story as their primary objective?
Your argument here is incoherent.
I don't understand how that was inconsistent. BioWare set a standard and then stopped trying to meet it in certain parts of their game.
BioWare are storytellers, when they stop telling stories in their games for no good reason, I think that's a valid basis for criticism.
Yes. I dispute that such a thing is even possible.
Content is content. Any categorization beyond that is a fabrication.
You dispute the fact that games are art? Or that they can tell their own stories? That's simply false.
As a guy who designs games as part of his coursework, I can tell you for a fact that content can be categorized and even ranked. Game design is subjective, but it's largely measurable.
What do I learn from multiplayer? What wisdom does it uncover? Single-player roleplaying is a deeply involved thought-experiment about human interaction. Much of what I know about dealing with people I learned from roleplaying games.
Sony Online Entertainment once defined fun as "learning in a safe environment". So what do I learn? And worse, with other people there, MP isn't a safe environment.
Maker, this explains a lot
Yes. I dispute that such a thing is even possible.
Content is content. Any categorization beyond that is a fabrication.
Don't cut yourself on that edge.
What worries me is that we will get more of a DA:I world than say a ME2 world
It will probably be more akin to DAI's than ME2's, IMO. Might be best to go into it under that assumption and be pleasantly surprised otherwise.
What worries me is that we will get more of a DA:I world than say a ME2 world - which is the game out of the trilogy which makes me think we are actually in a real place - Illium being a brilliant example of it.
I hope it will be more close to DAI world but with better content, less filler quests.
I personally love open world games, I like exploring. But each world should have a big mission tied to the story and some nice side ones. For example on how to do a nice map with content is the Crestwood in DAI. The other maps were pretty useless.
...
I agree with you that side quests should be more interesting than just fetch quests. However, MP is not the way to do it, for those that are not interested in MP. Another way is to make the side quests more interesting. I don't want DA to change into TW3, but its side quests are way more interesting, often unique and with acted dialogue. Exploration there is fun. That doesn't mean that I am opposed to more MP content, but I would be if that removed all SP side quests.
I agree with you that side quests should be more interesting than just fetch quests. However, MP is not the way to do it, for those that are not interested in MP. Another way is to make the side quests more interesting. I don't want DA to change into TW3, but its side quests are way more interesting, often unique and with acted dialogue. Exploration there is fun. That doesn't mean that I am opposed to more MP content, but I would be if that removed all SP side quests.
I'm not saying abolish side quests, but use the fact that MP exists to justify higher standards.
MP provides players with all the empty calories they could possibly want out of Mass Effect, so there's no need for BioWare to waste their time bloating Mass Effect with sidequests. All BioWare have to do is make all their sidequests with all (or at least some of) the intent and creativity they do with the rest of the game and let MP do its thing.
They don't have to settle for churning out repetitive content to pad out the game, because MP is already the ultimate padding.
I'm not sure my dig at OP was harsher than yours towards the fan base, but maybe. I think I've become a more aggressive person since I started posting in this section.
Bioware forums will do that to you. *hugs*
Even my 87 hour playthrough missed some quests. I didn't even know that Sten had a quest, for example. And I didn't complete all of the battle preparation in Redcliffe.
I did spend a ton of time in the Deep Roads, however, as one of the quests lacked relevant information in its journal entry. There was no indication of where to go to find the hidden cache left by thr Crosscut Drifters.
The playthrough did include Soldier's Peak, the Stone Prisoner, and Return to Ostagar, however.
My first playthrough of DA:O was about 110 hours and thats doing EVERYTHING. Now I can get it down to 60 hours while still doing everything. Not sure how I'm saving time. I guess I'm not reading the codex entries anymore and some dialogue skipping but I listen to most of the dialogue on replays anyway so......
Much of what I know about dealing with people I learned from roleplaying games.
So many jokes I could make.............but I won't. No no no, don't be a bad person WIss.
That said, people should be able to play RPG how they want to play. Take Dark Souls for example. Theres people that think those games have no story and just play it for the PVP action while largely ignoring PvE. While others love to roleplay characters and create a personal story as they play the game and largely ignore PVP. And theres those that do both. I don't think theres any wrong way to play a game.
Personally, I'm fine with have games that take 100+ hours to complete since I know I can always chose to skip content to shorten the game if I want to make the game shorter.
Gonna be honest here: Dark Souls has probably my favorite story ever told in any format. A lot to love with that game/series.
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