391 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

You obviously don't have kids.

I don’t see how that's relevant.

I want more content to explore with each character I create. My goal is not to get through the game in a timely manner.

[Sylvius the Mad]

ME2 and ME3 took me less than 30 hours to complete, with DLC. I think that's the perfect amount of time for MEA because any longer and it will surely have too much filler.

I was so annoyed when KotOR only took 30 hours. At the time, it was by far BioWare's shortest RPG.

[LinksOcarina]

I was so annoyed when KotOR only took 30 hours. At the time, it was by far BioWare's shortest RPG.

 

What would be the sweet spot then?

 

I tend to find 30-50 to be ideal personally, but i'm busy teaching all the time to play anyway.

[rashie]

I was so annoyed when KotOR only took 30 hours. At the time, it was by far BioWare's shortest RPG.

I think about 30-40 hours are about the best length for a game like kotor though, it didn't exactly feature deep and challenging combat to offer replayablility, unlike Baldurs Gate 2 + ToB.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think about 30-40 hours are about the best length for a game like kotor though, it didn't exactly feature deep and challenging combat to offer replayablility, unlike Baldurs Gate 2 + ToB.

I don't think the combat has anything to do with it. The combat in most games is pretty dull (DAO and NWN I liked, but that's about it).

My concern is that there isn't enough plot to explain the massive increase in power the characters experience. The sweet spot there was I think BG, which only got you to level 8, and took 80 hours to do it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

What would be the sweet spot then?

I tend to find 30-50 to be ideal personally, but i'm busy teaching all the time to play anyway.

At 30 hours, the game has hardly begun and then it's over. All of the ME games suffered from this.

50 might work, if we got into the meat of the gane right away without wasting time on a tutorial or the need to learn the mechanics through trial and error.

[AlanC9]

My concern is that there isn't enough plot to explain the massive increase in power the characters experience. The sweet spot there was I think BG, which only got you to level 8, and took 80 hours to do it.

Hmm... but isn't that judging an in-game fact in terms of an out-of-game fact? The amount of you spend playing the game isn't real to the PC.

[Il Divo]

Hmm... but isn't that judging an in-game fact in terms of an out-of-game fact? The amount of you spend playing the game isn't real to the PC.

 

 

Case in point: pause menus. Bioware's specialty.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Hmm... but isn't that judging an in-game fact in terms of an out-of-game fact? The amount of you spend playing the game isn't real to the PC.

But the amount of stuff he does is. I don’t see how to fit enough character development into a 30 hour game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Case in point: pause menus. Bioware's specialty.

And the reason I often don't like other developers' games - not enough pausing to think.

[Zekka]

And the reason I often don't like other developers' games - not enough pausing to think.

isn't that up to you to adjust to what's happening in the moment?

[RoboticWater]

I don't think the combat has anything to do with it. The combat in most games is pretty dull (DAO and NWN I liked, but that's about it).

My concern is that there isn't enough plot to explain the massive increase in power the characters experience. The sweet spot there was I think BG, which only got you to level 8, and took 80 hours to do it.

KoTOR actually has a perfect explanation: you already knew the powers you acquired throughout the game, leveling up was just a process of dusting off the parts of your brain that remembered how to do them. The leveling speed for the other characters is explained by the level of influence your character has on others through the force (like Bastilla's battle mediation or the Exile's force bonding).

 

Mass Effect is fine because you don't have very many powers to learn and most of the gameplay is tied to the player's own skill.

[Kevinc62]

 

https://youtu.be/dcT6M0VmIvg

 

 

Good video. He brings some interesting points, especially developers catering to such a wide audience and trying to please different tastes

 

Personally, I think it's fine developers add a lot of optional content and if it's well done, even better. As long as it's optional. Take DAI (and to a much lesser extend ME3) for example, I left TONS of side quest I had no interest in playing, but I enjoyed the main story, characters and gameplay, so I had a blast with it and felt it was worthy of the price.

 

The longest time I’ve played a game I think was around 50 hours, tops. At this point in my life, the moment a hobby becomes a chore, I just do something else. 

 

[wolfhowwl]

What am I reading, 100 hour playthroughs?

 

C'mon guys, think. BioWare likely does not have the budget to take a "Mass Effect-style" game beyond 20-30 hours of meaty content.

 

I would rather they make a tight, consistent game within those bounds than have a game where production values collapse outside of the 20 hour campaign and the other 80 hours consist of zones overstuffed with low-quality, tedious, pace-killing filler.

 

If you guys want to spend a lot of time with the game how about having more reactivity so you can replay it and see different things?

[Sylvius the Mad]

isn't that up to you to adjust to what's happening in the moment?

It's up to my character, and he does that regardless of how often I pause.

 

The game shouldn't present challenges for me.  It should present challenges for my character.  Those are very different things.

 

My character should never fail because of something that occurred outside his reality.  That would render the entire narrative completely incoherent.

 

This is why I object to action combat.  This is why I hate the interrupt system.

 

The physical requirements for playing a roleplaying game should be as close to zero as possible, and putting the games in computers should make them more accessible, not less.  My standard for accessibility is always going to be tabletop RPGs.  Anyone who can play a tabletop RPG should be able to play a CRPG.

[Sylvius the Mad]

An RPG is only as long as you play it.  You play it as long as you find your own character interesting.  A game can't be too long.  If you stop enjoying it, stop playing it.  There's no downside to walking away.

[LinksOcarina]

At 30 hours, the game has hardly begun and then it's over. All of the ME games suffered from this.

50 might work, if we got into the meat of the gane right away without wasting time on a tutorial or the need to learn the mechanics through trial and error.

 

Why 50 then? Why is 30 too short?

 

Thats the part I guess I kind of don't understand because then you say:

 

 

An RPG is only as long as you play it.  You play it as long as you find your own character interesting.  A game can't be too long.  If you stop enjoying it, stop playing it.  There's no downside to walking away.

[RoboticWater]

An RPG is only as long as you play it.  You play it as long as you find your own character interesting.  A game can't be too long.  If you stop enjoying it, stop playing it.  There's no downside to walking away.

But BioWare design their games specifically to be as long as their story, so it's their job to get me through that. Once I get there, the experience is generally intended to be over especially for those who came to participate in a story instead of make one up themselves. I'd prefer it if that finite experience was well paced.

 

There also needs to be some accountability on the developer to create a consistently engaging product. If the main missions have an emphasis story, the rest of the game should at least try to follow suit. It'd be like adding a bunch of empty nature shots between every scene of a movie. Even if I can tune those bits out or fast forward through them, it's an annoying meta to play that pulls me out of something that's potentially quite enjoyable.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Why 50 then? Why is 30 too short?

 

Thats the part I guess I kind of don't understand because then you say:

The narrative exists in the game; it's part of the setting.  But if the narrative is made incoherent by the lack of content, that harms the setting.

 

I said a game couldn't be too long.  I didn't say it couldn't be too short.  If the game lacks sufficient content to support the narrative, the game is too short.

[Sylvius the Mad]

But BioWare design their games specifically to be as long as their story, so it's their job to get me through that.

I disagree.  Their story is only a relevant narrative if you want it to be.

 

it might just be flavour text, in which case it doesn't matter whether you see it all (just as it doesn't matter if you unlock all the codex entries).

 

I want more content because it gives me more opportunity to explore my character and see what he does.  50 hours is about the minimum required to let me do that while still having the time to enjoy the fruits of my labours.

[AlanC9]

But the amount of stuff he does is. I don’t see how to fit enough character development into a 30 hour game.

 

 

But a lot of game systems are involved in that time. A ToEE combat will take a lot longer than a BG1 combat even if the situations are identical. An ME1 playthrough will involve a lot if time spent fiddling with inventory, while an ME2 playthrough won't. And so on.

[o Ventus]

At 30 hours, the game has hardly begun and then it's over. All of the ME games suffered from this.

50 might work, if we got into the meat of the gane right away without wasting time on a tutorial or the need to learn the mechanics through trial and error.

 

If you play a game for 30 hours before it "has hardly begun", then that's your problem, not the game's.

[Sylvius the Mad]

But a lot of game systems are involved in that time. A ToEE combat will take a lot longer than a BG1 combat even if the situations are identical. An ME1 playthrough will involve a lot if time spent fiddling with inventory, while an ME2 playthrough won't. And so on.

Many of those are decision-making events. Involved combat absolutely counts.

But I take your point. A game that moves through content faster can be shorter.

I have yet to see a game that adequately fits an epic story into 30 hours. The original Dungeon Siege maybe?

[fchopin]

My character should never fail because of something that occurred outside his reality.

 

What do you mean by outside his reality?

[FKA_Servo]

What do you mean by outside his reality?

That a given characters proficiency shouldn't be limited in any way by a players physical deficiencies, I would assume. If you're playing an FPS, your avatars ability to aim and hit a target is restricted by your own accuracy and skill. In an RPG, if the character is proficient at the task, the players skill or lack thereof shouldn't factor at all.