134 réponses à ce sujet

[lJustAlexl]

Hm, well it is what it is.

 

Question for anyone who might know. I'd like to avoid getting the drakescale armors from this chests if possible...can I just let it sit without getting overwritten? I'm assuming it's safe til the next book chest anyway.

[Shiratori]

Hm, well it is what it is.
 
Question for anyone who might know. I'd like to avoid getting the drakescale armors from this chests if possible...can I just let it sit without getting overwritten? I'm assuming it's safe til the next book chest anyway.

It was a Victory Chest so you'd have about 1 week before possibly losing it.

[lJustAlexl]

It was a Victory Chest so you'd have about 1 week before possibly losing it.

 

Oof, painful. Thanks, good to know.

[MagicalMaster]

I have been doing NM FC since I was 35/35/40 with a Dragon Maul Skywatcher Cleaver (did not have Maul at that point) and without CR (running pugs).

I was doing NM FC at sub 20 in all promotes. Hell, even at this point (with like 30ish NM Dragon kills) I'm only 38/31/39. I don't want to turn this into a bragging contest or something, just pointing out that even when you started you still did technically overpomote it...just not nearly to the degree of a PromotionLord.

Uses of Combat Roll...

Venatori Gladiator (get out of knockdown or flank them)
Venatori Mage/Spellbinder ground effects (roll out of them quickly)
Venatori Brutes (get out of knockdown)

Red Templar Guard (get out of knockdown or flank them)
Red Templar Behemoth (get out of knockdown)
Red Templar Commander (get out of various Knockdowns)

Terror Demon (break various CC)
Fear Demon (break knockdown)
Despair Demon (break knockdown)
Demon Commander (break various CC)

And that's just the original three factions.

Yes, some of those are avoidable and you shouldn't get hit...but mistakes can happen. That's not counting breaking knockdowns/stuns of various neutral mobs or using it to dodge projectiles. Might be forgetting some other uses too.

[GreySpectre]

I was doing NM FC at sub 20 in all promotes. Hell, even at this point (with like 30ish NM Dragon kills) I'm only 38/31/39. I don't want to turn this into a bragging contest or something, just pointing out that even when you started you still did technically overpomote it...just not nearly to the degree of a PromotionLord.

Uses of Combat Roll...

Venatori Gladiator (get out of knockdown or flank them)
Venatori Mage/Spellbinder ground effects (roll out of them quickly)
Venatori Brutes (get out of knockdown)

Red Templar Guard (get out of knockdown or flank them)
Red Templar Behemoth (get out of knockdown)
Red Templar Commander (get out of various Knockdowns)

Terror Demon (break various CC)
Fear Demon (break knockdown)
Despair Demon (break knockdown)
Demon Commander (break various CC)

And that's just the original three factions.

Yes, some of those are avoidable and you shouldn't get hit...but mistakes can happen. That's not counting breaking knockdowns/stuns of various neutral mobs or using it to dodge projectiles. Might be forgetting some other uses too.

 

I will disregard the first part because, really, I don't care. The difference between 35 and 20 in stats is so miniscule it's not even worth mentioning for a difficulty like nightmare.

 

The only knockdowns that would ever give you a problem are the demon ones, and the shields' if they gang up on you.

Thing is, demons' damage can be very easily mitigated by just using a tonic, which means getting knocked down shouldn't be a big deal. When you get up you blow your war horn, you get full life, enemies are running away from you and you are free to smack that terror in the face.

 

As for the shields and every single venatori who can knockback. They can do nothing when they are panicked, they just politely turn their back to you, offering the kill. And the fact that you can auto crit panicked enemies makes it all the better for low promote players since they get to reset their cooldowns faster and have more chances to reapply panick through the passives.

 

Devour is much more replaceable than WH, and I have tried to ditch it many times in favor of CR but considering that I almost exclusively pug NM I am not very comfortable doing so, as I like my little panic button. If I were to play in private lobbies where I knew that I could rely on the other people on the team I would ditch Devour on a heartbeat. Not WH though, it is too important for me AND the rest of the team to do so.

[Jay P]

I kinda feel awkward for the topic sidetrack, but so much info from numerous sources! So yay! :-)

As an even lower promoted player than you, I would say get dragon rage.

It's awesome.

And it's right next to rampage anyway. (iIRC on vacation).

And if you are worried about survivability, devour is ok. I'm not totally sure, but it feels like it bypasses blocks, or has some type of different targeting mechanic, plus it's minor dps boost. War horn is pretty good too though

[Ricksmiley]

Different targeting mechanic if I remember right. So gets past the ever blocking foot soldier. And if I remember correctly gets health through shield bearers. Been a while since I have uses it.

[Snakebite]

Different targeting mechanic if I remember right. So gets past the ever blocking foot soldier. And if I remember correctly gets health through shield bearers. Been a while since I have uses it.

 

The first part of the attack cannot be blocked, but the second part can.  The second part is what activates the cooldown and gives you health.  When attacking guys with shields, only the first part hits, so no health gain and no cooldown or stamina cost.

[MagicalMaster]

And it's right next to rampage anyway. (iIRC on vacation).

It is, yes.

And if you are worried about survivability, devour is ok. I'm not totally sure, but it feels like it bypasses blocks, or has some type of different targeting mechanic, plus it's minor dps boost. War horn is pretty good too though

Devour bypasses the "block" mechanic of Venatori Zealots or Red Templars, yes. Both War Horn and Devour are good, there's a reason the two standard builds are Dragon Rage/Combat Roll/Rampage/Devour and Dragon Rage/Combat Roll/Rampage/War Horn. Devour offers far more *constant* healing, however, and thus is very strong in situations where players are concerned about staying alive in the first place.

I will disregard the first part because, really, I don't care. The difference between 35 and 20 in stats is so miniscule it's not even worth mentioning for a difficulty like nightmare.

You think having nearly 20% more survivability and 10-15% more damage is "miniscule?" That's quite significant and the defensive bonuses alone will let you survive many situations where you'd have died before. It hardly makes you invincible, of course.
 

The only knockdowns that would ever give you a problem are the demon ones, and the shields' if they gang up on you.
Thing is, demons' damage can be very easily mitigated by just using a tonic, which means getting knocked down shouldn't be a big deal. When you get up you blow your war horn, you get full life, enemies are running away from you and you are free to smack that terror in the face.

Or...you could Combat Roll, Devour the Terror Demon to interrupt its scream, and resume beating the snot out of things. You also skipped the part where you have to hit Rampage before War Horn as well. You also skipped the part where another Terror Demon pops up right after you War Horn and now you're CCed for another 4-5 seconds again.

I think you're also vastly underestimating the Despair Demon chain knockdowns when they're wall hacking you. Combat Roll can break those, War Horn cannot.
 

As for the shields and every single venatori who can knockback. They can do nothing when they are panicked, they just politely turn their back to you, offering the kill. And the fact that you can auto crit panicked enemies makes it all the better for low promote players since they get to reset their cooldowns faster and have more chances to reapply panick through the passives.

The Venatori you've met must have liked clumping up in convenient groups far more than they have for me. Also, War Horn's cooldown is 24 seconds and lasts 6 seconds. Exactly how many crits are you expecting to land in terms of reducing the cooldown -- especially with enemies running away from you? All it takes is one Gladiator/Brute to reach you and start a CC chain that will ruin your day.

Devour is much more replaceable than WH, and I have tried to ditch it many times in favor of CR but considering that I almost exclusively pug NM I am not very comfortable doing so, as I like my little panic button. If I were to play in private lobbies where I knew that I could rely on the other people on the team I would ditch Devour on a heartbeat. Not WH though, it is too important for me AND the rest of the team to do so.

I've had the opposite experience -- where the constant healing from Devour and CC breaks/burst movement of Combat Roll allowed me to survive situations where I would have died if I was trying to War Horn. Also note that Devour will also heal you to full health (or extremely close to it) during Rampage just like War Horn.

And if I remember correctly gets health through shield bearers. Been a while since I have uses it.

Sort of. It's weird -- it doesn't consume Stamina or go on Cooldown but it also doesn't do much healing or damage. You can spam it versus a single shield bearer and it's rather amusing, though. Whittle him down and he keeps getting staggered for a second.

[GreySpectre]

You think having nearly 20% more survivability and 10-15% more damage is "miniscule?" That's quite significant and the defensive bonuses alone will let you survive many situations where you'd have died before. It hardly makes you invincible, of course.
 
15 difference in stats is 75 hp and 7.5% extra defenses and attack. Not 20% nor 10-15%. And with the damage enemies do on Nightmare, 7.5% is exactly nothing. I can tank maybe one hit more? Two?

Or...you could Combat Roll, Devour the Terror Demon to interrupt its scream, and resume beating the snot out of things. You also skipped the part where you have to hit Rampage before War Horn as well. You also skipped the part where another Terror Demon pops up right after you War Horn and now you're CCed for another 4-5 seconds again.

I think you're also vastly underestimating the Despair Demon chain knockdowns when they're wall hacking you. Combat Roll can break those, War Horn cannot.

 

Like I said, when it comes to demons, you will get chain stunned without CR, but you can afford it since they won't do that much damage if you bother to get a spirit and ice resist potion. Warhorn IS weaker against demons (and now Qunari probably), but I feel it outclasses it on the other 3.

The Venatori you've met must have liked clumping up in convenient groups far more than they have for me. Also, War Horn's cooldown is 24 seconds and lasts 6 seconds. Exactly how many crits are you expecting to land in terms of reducing the cooldown -- especially with enemies running away from you? All it takes is one Gladiator/Brute to reach you and start a CC chain that will ruin your day.

 

Stand in front of a Gladiator and when he raises his hand, walk backwards. It's that easy to avoid being knocked down by one Gladiator. As for Brutes, I don't know, I never really had problems with them, their rampage ends before it starts with all the damage their guard takes so there were no circumstances when I've been chain stunned by them, really.

 

That said, I don't even know why I am arguing this, as it is completely off topic.

[Gravija]

all items salvaged from all chests. i can make a salavage yard with all the stuff i have yay.

[TheThirdRace]

You think having nearly 20% more survivability and 10-15% more damage is "miniscule?" That's quite significant and the defensive bonuses alone will let you survive many situations where you'd have died before. It hardly makes you invincible, of course.

Yes it is "minuscule".

On paper, 20% looks good but in reality it works a bit differently when calculating "effective hit points". The truth is, it's exponential. 20% at the very beginning is giving you very low survivability, but 5% at the very end of the spectrum would increase your survivability by a tremendous amount.

You can check up this post for more information on the principle behind this: http://forum.bioware.../#entry19510232

[Yallegro]

Greyspectre said:

 

Stand in front of a Gladiator and when he raises his hand, walk backwards. It's that easy to avoid being knocked down by one Gladiator.

 

Haha, no

[GreySpectre]

Greyspectre said:

 

Stand in front of a Gladiator and when he raises his hand, walk backwards. It's that easy to avoid being knocked down by one Gladiator.

 

Haha, no

 

And yet, that is exactly what I do to kill them if I don't have any CC. Without fail.

[Minuos]

Haha, no

 

Er, yes?

 

The moment after the swing leaves them open to 2-3 attacks, and is the best time to hit them with anything that would otherwise be blocked.

[Beta Commando]

Could we go back to the original topic? Maybe start your own about Reaver builds if you want to talk about that one specifically instead?

[Mitsuryu]

Er, yes?

 

The moment after the swing leaves them open to 2-3 attacks, and is the best time to hit them with anything that would otherwise be blocked.

 

Yup i agree.

However, it only works if there is not too many of them...

Otherwise, you are going to experience why it is a bad idea not to have a grace period, after a stunt/knockdown/whatever, during which you cannot be stunt/knockdown/whatever again...

[zambingo]

Could we go back to the original topic? Maybe start your own about Reaver builds if you want to talk about that one specifically instead?

Wait. ;-) You actually want to go back to the original topic of entitled complaining about a weekend challenge reward?

[MagicalMaster]

15 difference in stats is 75 hp and 7.5% extra defenses and attack. Not 20% nor 10-15%. And with the damage enemies do on Nightmare, 7.5% is exactly nothing. I can tank maybe one hit more? Two?

20 difference in stats -- you had 37 average stats, I had 17 average (rounded to nearest whole numbers -- remember that I said *sub* 20). Which, being pessimistic (meaning we assume we have no Constitution/Willpower/Cunning from gear or ability points) is 3.5% reduction vs 13.5% reduction, or 0.965/0.865 = about 11.6% more effective health (and you're guaranteed to have extra stats from class ability points and armor upgrades at a minimum which makes that number higher). Then say you have, oh, 1500 HP? Therefore adding 100 HP is a 6.7% increase (and that increase is larger with classes that have lower health, again being "pessimistic" here). 1.116 * 1.067 = 19% increase in effective health...with intentionally trying for a worst case scenario or close to it.

So it is indeed more than 10-15% and quite close to 20% (and more than 20% for many classes).

And yes, on Nightmare that might literally be 6 hits versus 5 or 12 hits vs 10. Which can still save you in many cases where you would have barely died and give you time to heal back up (or just stay alive at low health in some cases). It hardly makes you invincible -- but if you're attempting to argue that unless you can charge up the FC4 ramp as an Archer then it's not enough of a difference...

I mean, I can say as a player who's gone from 17ish stats in NM to 37ish stats in NM that I noticed a significant increase in survivability. I've managed to barely stay alive on several occasions when things went haywire due to someone dying or people messing up (including me at times) when I would have died otherwise without those promotions (and had died in the past).

Like I said, when it comes to demons, you will get chain stunned without CR, but you can afford it since they won't do that much damage if you bother to get a spirit and ice resist potion. Warhorn IS weaker against demons (and now Qunari probably), but I feel it outclasses it on the other 3.

And what happens when you start getting nailed by Fire Wraiths while chain Terror Demon stunned?

Stand in front of a Gladiator and when he raises his hand, walk backwards. It's that easy to avoid being knocked down by one Gladiator. As for Brutes, I don't know, I never really had problems with them, their rampage ends before it starts with all the damage their guard takes so there were no circumstances when I've been chain stunned by them, really.

And when they do their shield charge? Or, more accurately, when multiple Gladiators do their melee or shield charge? It's not the one Gladiator that's a problem, it's the horde of Gladiators or the one Gladiator and his multiple Marksman/Mage/Brute/Stalker friends.

If you're able to take a NM Brute from full Guard to no Guard (which is equivalent to their max health, I believe, just like Pride Demons but not 100% sure for Brute) then that would be 20k+ damage needed. And you're doing it in like 2-3 seconds before their Rampage knocks you down? If you're talking about using Hakkon weapons to do that then that's pointless -- "All you need to do to deal with NM Brutes easily is to get weapons that drop from NM."

In paper, 20% looks good but in reality it works a bit differently when calculating "effective hit points". The truth is, it's exponential. 20% at the very beginning is giving you very low survivability, but 5% at the very end of the spectrum would increase your survivability by a tremendous amount.

Yes, I'm aware how the math works. Incidentally, if we assume a perfect scenario for you (as in we're going from 0% -> 20% reduction and also 75% -> 80% reduction, just to help your case as much as possible) then both cases are an increase of 25%. 1/0.8 = 1.25. 0.2/0.25 = 1.25. Both allow you to take 25% more hits on average. However, since damage doesn't work out into convenient numbers it's possible 25% more health might not help at all (if you're taking, say, 65% of your original life per hit, 0% actual benefit) but it could also be larger than 25% (if, say, you're taking 60% of your original life per hit, 50% actual benefit (3 hits rather than 2)). The actual damage in-game is messier and varies a lot based on enemy and faction so looking at the average benefit is likely the only semi-reasonable way to try to gauge overall effectiveness.

The exponential part is why going from 75% -> 80% is better than 50% -> 55% and both are better than 20% -> 25%. But in this case we're talking 40 promotions vs 10 promotions.

[TheThirdRace]

Yes, I'm aware how the math works. Incidentally, if we assume a perfect scenario for you (as in we're going from 0% -> 20% reduction and also 75% -> 80% reduction, just to help your case as much as possible) then both cases are an increase of 25%. 1/0.8 = 1.25. 0.2/0.25 = 1.25. Both allow you to take 25% more hits on average. However, since damage doesn't work out into convenient numbers it's possible 25% more health might not help at all (if you're taking, say, 65% of your original life per hit, 0% actual benefit) but it could also be larger than 25% (if, say, you're taking 60% of your original life per hit, 50% actual benefit (3 hits rather than 2)). The actual damage in-game is messier and varies a lot based on enemy and faction so looking at the average benefit is likely the only semi-reasonable way to try to gauge overall effectiveness.

The exponential part is why going from 75% -> 80% is better than 50% -> 55% and both are better than 20% -> 25%. But in this case we're talking 40 promotions vs 10 promotions.

What you're doing is comparing 20% (flat number) vs 20% (effective gain in %resist for the last 5%). Basically, you're doing an apple vs orange comparison and forget to consider how it applies in-game.

Here's an example of what really happens:

Health: 500 HP
Damage received: 100

0% resist
HP lost per hit: 100 HP
Health amount after each hit: 400, 300, 200, 100, 0
Number of hits you can take before dying: 4

20% resist
HP lost per hit: 80 HP
Health amount after each hit: 420, 340, 260, 180, 100, 20, 0
Number of hits you can take before dying: 6

75% resist
HP lost per hit: 25 HP
Health amount after each hit: 475, 450, 425, 400, 375, 350, 325, 300, 275, 250, 225, 200, 175, 150, 125, 100, 75, 50, 25, 0
Number of hits you can take before dying: 19

80% resist
HP lost per hit: 20 HP
Health amount after each hit: 480, 460, 440, 420, 400, 380, 360, 340, 320, 300, 280, 260, 240, 220, 200, 180, 160, 140, 120, 100, 80, 60, 40, 20, 0
Number of hits you can take before dying: 24

20% at the start of the curve gave you 2 more hits before you die.
5% at the end of the curve gave you 5 more hits before you die.
Thus 5% at the end > 20% at the start when you take into account game mechanics.

You also have to realize that this is all things considered equals (except for the resist % obviously). Using an higher amount of HP will favor the last 5% even more. Character level will directly affect how much HP your character has, tipping even more the scale toward the 5%. Equipment can also be used to add to your HP pool, also favoring the 5%. Equipment can also affect your effective HP with +% Heal Bonus, +%Heal on Kill, +% Heal on Hit, which all benefit from more HP. Everything here points to better survival with that last 5% than with the first 20% and by a big margin I might add.

Furthermore, players with 75% resist will usually also have better strategies, skills and timing, all of which improve considerably your survival too.

No matter how hard you try to justify that the first 20% is a big improvement, it is in fact very small in relation to the last 5% you get.

I hope this clears out any misunderstanding...

[nanotm]

there's no virtuoso drakscale armour 

 

perhaps you could add that to the next book reward

[Gilli]

there's no virtuoso drakscale armour 

 

perhaps you could add that to the next book reward

 

I think Luke(?) said that Zither! doesn't have a Drakescale Armor, because he (Zither!) would never wear what others are wearing.

[scene_cachet]

I think Luke(?) said that Zither! doesn't have a Drakescale Armor, because he (Zither!) would never wear what others are wearing.

 

Zither has his own style.

[TheThirdRace]

I think Luke(?) said that Zither! doesn't have a Drakescale Armor, because he (Zither!) would never wear what others are wearing.

 
 

Zither has his own style.

Their "explanation" is funny nonetheless, but it's most probably a technically issue, aka would need extra work to add a guitar on it...

[GreySpectre]

 
 

Their "explanation" is funny nonetheless, but it's most probably a technically issue, aka would need extra work to add a guitar on it...

 

I think it's more along the lines that, as an Orlesian, he needs a mask. And the masks are parts of his armours.