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[Gervaise]

At several places in the game but particularly the Chantry in Redcliffe, we see pictures from the life of Andraste, including one of an elf in robes holding a key that looks a lot like Solas' tarot card and which WoT2 confirms is Shartan.    There are also references in the introduction to the Canticle of Shartan to the fact that Shartan could just have been a conglomerate figure, a honorific title given to any rebel leader or possible a personification of ancient elven folktale of a "rebellion against tyrants led by a trickster warrior".  Even after the main game this seemed to be pointing very directly to Fen'Harel and thus Solas.  

 

So the suggestion was that Shartan may either have not been an actual historic figure or that possible it was Solas emerging at an earlier time under a different name.   His current disillusionment would be more understandable if he had put that plan for the elves into motion, only to turn up some 1000 years later and find it all in ruins.      Yet, he now tells us that he was sleeping from when he threw up the veil until around the time he ordered his agent to give his orb to Cory.

 

So was that all a smoke screen to try and lead us into false conclusions about his previous activities?     Was Shartan one of his agents?    Or was Shartan what he was originally claimed to be; an ordinary elven slave who inspired his people to fight free of their shackles and join with Andraste's crusade?

[myahele]

It's possible that it could have been an awoken ancient elf/ follower of Fen'harel who used all the strategies of Fen'harel to help Andraste and the elves

[Daerog]

Maybe Shartan had no connections to Solas and was just another heroic figure in history. Maybe the vague connections are just coincidence.

[Almostfaceman]

Considering the magic of the temple of Andraste's ashes in Origins has an actual Shartan spirit guardian, I'll take that as evidence there was an actual Shartan. The place was built by people who were there for the burning of Andraste, so I think they know a bit more about what happened than, say, the Chantry. 

[The Night Haunter]

Maybe Shartan had no connections to Solas and was just another heroic figure in history. Maybe the vague connections are just coincidence.

Pretty much this. Solas almost never outright lies and he specifically said he woke up 1 year before DA:I and had been asleep since the Veil was put up.

[Statare]

I'm thinking he either had no connection to the Dread Wolf, or maybe remembered the Dread Wolf as the Rebel God (this was pre-Dales) and styled himself as the rebel elven operatives of the dread wolf.

 

Another possibility is that Shartan was supported by Mythal, as unlike Fen'Harel, Mythal has sort of been present in the world shoving history, and we have yet to learn who the mysterious voices of various legends were (the Maker in Andraste's legend, the whispers of Old Gods to the Magisters, etc.). There could be more puppet masters than just those two.

[Arakat]

I kinda liked the Solas=Shartan theory, but yeah, it does seem there was nothing to it, after all.

 

However, the similarities between Mythal, Andraste and Flemeth are still there, and I'm not giving up on my belief that Andraste was a host for Mythal.

[Daerog]

There are also similarities between Aveline (not DA2 one) and Andraste.

 

There are also dissimilarities between Mythal/Flemeth/Flemythal and Andraste. Andraste prayed to other gods before praying to the Maker. She was a devout warrior that led a rebellion in the name of a god, not for her own sake. She had no need to conquer Tevinter, her area was like the Germania to Tevinter's Roman Empire, they had their fights but Tevinter could never hold onto it. Doing stuff in another's name (and dying) does not sound like Flemeth or Mythal at all.

 

I find the theory that Andraste was a Mythal host or whatever, even the "First OGB" theory, to be weak, but that's just me.

[Gervaise]

I was reading the Canticle of Shartan again in WoT2 since Divine Leliana at least has now restored it to the Chant.    I think there is a certain significance that during the game we found codices that essentially contradicted the history of Andraste as contained in the Chant.    Now it is suggested that the Canticle of Shartan may also bear little resemblance to the true historical figure.   In fact it was only written down on the instructions of the first Divine and had only existed as an oral tradition among the elves up to then.

 

So my theory now is that these hints linking Solas to Shartan are to alert us to the fact that whilst Shartan was an historical figure, the Canticle itself may not actually be about him.     If you go back to the history of Shartan as related by Sister Petrine, she states that Andraste's victory at the Valarian Fields might have not occurred had it not been for a "rebellion behind enemy lines".    It was previously suggested that Shartan was the commander of a slave division in the Imperial army.   Now the army would have been commanded by mages and they normally do so from the rear to keep clear of threats while they hit the enemy with spells.   If their slave guard suddenly turned on them, that would have been sufficient to turn the tide of battle.    

 

I suspect that Shartan was familiar with the old elven folk tale about the trickster warrior who aided the enemies of the tyrants who ruled them and he used this tale to encourage his followers to pursue his proposed action on the eve of battle.     Over time, when elves passed the story of Shartan down the years, the two tales became combined into one and that is how it came to be heard by Chantry scribes who noted it down for the Divine.

 

If you look at the Canticle of Shartan and substitute the names of Solas for Shartan, Mythal for Andraste and evanuris for Magister, it could definitely be telling the story of Fen'Harel's rebellion.     In it the elven slaves flee into the wilderness away from their masters, pursued by hunters (servants of Andruil?).    They start to doubt their actions and wonder if they might not be better off going back and throwing themselves on the mercy of the evanuris.    At this point Solas appears and argues against this, pointing out the evanuris will just use them as an example to other slaves of what happens to those that rebel.   Instead he encourages them to fight for their freedom.    He enables them to outwit their pursuers by using guerrilla tactics, falling upon them and slaughtering them all.   In WoT2 there is an illustration of this but instead of showing elves and humans (as you would expect), it shows wolves bringing down a stylised deer.   Symbolic of Fen'Harel's followers falling on either Andruil's or Gil'naan's.   It would certainly suggest that it was this incident that caused the evanuris to dub Solas the Dread Wolf.

 

Then comes the next bit which is meant to recount the meeting between Shartan and Andraste but I feel now is more likely recalling Fen'Harel and Mythal.    The elves hear and see another great army approaching.   Fen'Harel tells them he will investigate who they are rather than risk losing all his followers.    He sneaks into camp, is captured and taken before their leader, a "Lady radiant and clad in armour of bright steel", surrounded by her followers, many of whom bear the marks of slavery.   She declares that "All souls who take up the sword against Tevinter/Evanuris are welcome here".    Then Mythal invites his followers to join her.

 

Their combined forces advance on Minrathous/Arlathan.    In the subsequent battle it is the actions of Fen'Harel that prevent Mythal being cut off and overwhelmed by the enemy.   With the battle won, she proclaims "Behold our Champion" and gives him a weapon that her mother once possessed, telling him "Take this, my Champion, and free our people forever."   Odd word that "forever" from one mortal to another but not to one near immortal to another.    Could the weapon she gives him be not the sword in the current version but actually an orb of power?   The depiction of the Dread Wolf guarding Mythal certainly would fit with him being her Champion.  Then the Canticle ends with them standing before the gates of Minrathous/Arlathan ready to make their final push against the tyrants.

 

What follows in the Chant is the story of Maferath's betrayal through jealousy of the Maker and in fact Andraste herself, whereas the historical account clearly indicates this was likely a strategic decision on his part.   So could the betrayal contained in the Chant bear more relation to the betrayal of Mythal than the historical Andraste?   Whatever the case, I'm definitely inclined to think that the Canticle of Shartan does contain far more of the story of Fen'Harel as contained in the ancient elven folk tale passed down among the slaves than the actual events that surrounded the historical elf of that name.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Another ancient elf probably.

[NRieh]

I assume that not every ancient elven mythical figure is actually Solas, even if many of them are.  

 

 But it's hard to ditch away the Andraste=?=Mythal similarities, true.   

[BlueBird]

I was reading the Canticle of Shartan again in WoT2 since Divine Leliana at least has now restored it to the Chant.    I think there is a certain significance that during the game we found codices that essentially contradicted the history of Andraste as contained in the Chant.    Now it is suggested that the Canticle of Shartan may also bear little resemblance to the true historical figure.   In fact it was only written down on the instructions of the first Divine and had only existed as an oral tradition among the elves up to then.

 

So my theory now is that these hints linking Solas to Shartan are to alert us to the fact that whilst Shartan was an historical figure, the Canticle itself may not actually be about him.     If you go back to the history of Shartan as related by Sister Petrine, she states that Andraste's victory at the Valarian Fields might have not occurred had it not been for a "rebellion behind enemy lines".    It was previously suggested that Shartan was the commander of a slave division in the Imperial army.   Now the army would have been commanded by mages and they normally do so from the rear to keep clear of threats while they hit the enemy with spells.   If their slave guard suddenly turned on them, that would have been sufficient to turn the tide of battle.    

 

I suspect that Shartan was familiar with the old elven folk tale about the trickster warrior who aided the enemies of the tyrants who ruled them and he used this tale to encourage his followers to pursue his proposed action on the eve of battle.     Over time, when elves passed the story of Shartan down the years, the two tales became combined into one and that is how it came to be heard by Chantry scribes who noted it down for the Divine.

 

If you look at the Canticle of Shartan and substitute the names of Solas for Shartan, Mythal for Andraste and evanuris for Magister, it could definitely be telling the story of Fen'Harel's rebellion.     In it the elven slaves flee into the wilderness away from their masters, pursued by hunters (servants of Andruil?).    They start to doubt their actions and wonder if they might not be better off going back and throwing themselves on the mercy of the evanuris.    At this point Solas appears and argues against this, pointing out the evanuris will just use them as an example to other slaves of what happens to those that rebel.   Instead he encourages them to fight for their freedom.    He enables them to outwit their pursuers by using guerrilla tactics, falling upon them and slaughtering them all.   In WoT2 there is an illustration of this but instead of showing elves and humans (as you would expect), it shows wolves bringing down a stylised deer.   Symbolic of Fen'Harel's followers falling on either Andruil's or Gil'naan's.   It would certainly suggest that it was this incident that caused the evanuris to dub Solas the Dread Wolf.

 

Then comes the next bit which is meant to recount the meeting between Shartan and Andraste but I feel now is more likely recalling Fen'Harel and Mythal.    The elves hear and see another great army approaching.   Fen'Harel tells them he will investigate who they are rather than risk losing all his followers.    He sneaks into camp, is captured and taken before their leader, a "Lady radiant and clad in armour of bright steel", surrounded by her followers, many of whom bear the marks of slavery.   She declares that "All souls who take up the sword against Tevinter/Evanuris are welcome here".    Then Mythal invites his followers to join her.

 

Their combined forces advance on Minrathous/Arlathan.    In the subsequent battle it is the actions of Fen'Harel that prevent Mythal being cut off and overwhelmed by the enemy.   With the battle won, she proclaims "Behold our Champion" and gives him a weapon that her mother once possessed, telling him "Take this, my Champion, and free our people forever."   Odd word that "forever" from one mortal to another but not to one near immortal to another.    Could the weapon she gives him be not the sword in the current version but actually an orb of power?   The depiction of the Dread Wolf guarding Mythal certainly would fit with him being her Champion.  Then the Canticle ends with them standing before the gates of Minrathous/Arlathan ready to make their final push against the tyrants.

 

What follows in the Chant is the story of Maferath's betrayal through jealousy of the Maker and in fact Andraste herself, whereas the historical account clearly indicates this was likely a strategic decision on his part.   So could the betrayal contained in the Chant bear more relation to the betrayal of Mythal than the historical Andraste?   Whatever the case, I'm definitely inclined to think that the Canticle of Shartan does contain far more of the story of Fen'Harel as contained in the ancient elven folk tale passed down among the slaves than the actual events that surrounded the historical elf of that name.

If you look at it this way then I suppose the song 'Andraste's Mabari' makes even more sense. Just substitute Mabari for wolf

[Korva]

Maybe Shartan had no connections to Solas and was just another heroic figure in history. Maybe the vague connections are just coincidence.

 

... and ...

 

 

I find the theory that Andraste was a Mythal host or whatever, even the "First OGB" theory, to be weak, but that's just me.

 

Agreed on both counts. I think it'd be pretty damn boring to force Mythal-this and/or Solas-that on historical figures and events instead of "allowing" those figures to stand on their own merits and accomplish something without a pseudo-god pulling their strings. As it is, Bioware's pet super NPCs are probably the least interesting aspect of the setting for me -- though that may be partly raw annoyance on my part for them being the "real" protagonists in what I foolishly thought were my characters' stories, so ...

 

[tanuki]

I don't think it was ever a red herring. I think the devs didn't even consider such possibility and all the similarities are totally a coincidence. It's the fans who made a big deal of it.

Also I personally always found most of those theories (Solas -> Shartan, Sera -> Andruil, etc) far-fetched and unappealing.

[Illegitimus]

On the whole

 

At several places in the game but particularly the Chantry in Redcliffe, we see pictures from the life of Andraste, including one of an elf in robes holding a key that looks a lot like Solas' tarot card and which WoT2 confirms is Shartan.    There are also references in the introduction to the Canticle of Shartan to the fact that Shartan could just have been a conglomerate figure, a honorific title given to any rebel leader or possible a personification of ancient elven folktale of a "rebellion against tyrants led by a trickster warrior".  Even after the main game this seemed to be pointing very directly to Fen'Harel and thus Solas.  

 

So the suggestion was that Shartan may either have not been an actual historic figure or that possible it was Solas emerging at an earlier time under a different name.   His current disillusionment would be more understandable if he had put that plan for the elves into motion, only to turn up some 1000 years later and find it all in ruins.      Yet, he now tells us that he was sleeping from when he threw up the veil until around the time he ordered his agent to give his orb to Cory.

 

So was that all a smoke screen to try and lead us into false conclusions about his previous activities?     Was Shartan one of his agents?    Or was Shartan what he was originally claimed to be; an ordinary elven slave who inspired his people to fight free of their shackles and join with Andraste's crusade?

 

I'm going with option C.  The rewritten Canticle suggests there was no real Shartan and he was adapted from myths of Fen'Harel as a way to justify removing it from the Chantry Canon.  It's merely a method of minimizing the importance of the elves in the events that created Andrastianism.  

[Neoleviathan]

If Flemythal can split her soul & live in peices perhaps Solas could as well. He was fighting a rebellion, so he could have made spares just in case. Maybe one of those awoke, either didn't see the world as a coplete abomination or just tried to change the world in a different way.

Maybe Shartan was just a spirit trying to be the Dread Wolf. Becoming the rebel elf.

[RoseLawliet]

Andraste prayed to other gods before praying to the Maker. She was a devout warrior that led a rebellion in the name of a god, not for her own sake.

 

Well, that's what a modified and edited work written by people (who aren't above cutting/changing things for political reasons) alleges she said and did. And even if that's complete fact -- that she appeared devout and claimed the rebellion was for the Maker -- it doesn't tell us what she thought. Faith has been used as a tool before, in real life and in the game. The cynical can look at Andraste's story as put forward by the Chant of Light and see someone who feigned faith (very well) to gain an army. It's what one of my planned Inquisitors will do once I get around to playing him. He'll appear super devout, say all the right things, be squeaky clean... because he knows it works.

[MrMrPendragon]

Oooh I can see it now.

 

Shartan is the Golden City! I mean, Shartan started the Blight.

 

It's one of those two for sure.

[Dai Grepher]

Fans reading into things.

[straykat]

Considering the magic of the temple of Andraste's ashes in Origins has an actual Shartan spirit guardian, I'll take that as evidence there was an actual Shartan. The place was built by people who were there for the burning of Andraste, so I think they know a bit more about what happened than, say, the Chantry. 

 

That's what I think too.

 

Although it's very much possible it was all done in the spirit of a Trickster. I think you could play the City Elf that way, for that matter. You could tell little kids stories of a trickster woman (Tathas), and even get your mom's knife.. the Fang of Fen'Harel. And while everyone can play it, I think the "Dark Wolf" title you get from stealing in Denerim is channeling Fen'Harel too.

[Iakus]

Shartan most likely existed and was not Solas/Fen'Haral.

 

However, the Shartan that we know of comes from information that had been past down from an elven oral tradition, being changed in who knows how many ways over so many generations, before being written down (and no doubt additionally altered) by devout Andrastrians.  

 

No wonder it's so hard to pin down who he really was!

[straykat]

Shartan most likely existed and was not Solas/Fen'Haral.

 

However, the Shartan that we know of comes from information that had been past down from an elven oral tradition, being changed in who knows how many ways over so many generations, before being written down (and no doubt additionally altered) by devout Andrastrians.  

 

No wonder it's so hard to pin down who he really was!

 

I think it's worth taking into account. It makes my head spin too much if the writers are writing lore in one vein, but actually mean something entirely different and have too much yet to be revealed. 

 

If they're trying to be ultra-realistic by emulating the lack of veracity of our own real ancient texts, it's taking it a bit too far imo. It makes nothing dependable or worth talking about.. which isn't exactly the greatest idea when world building. lol

 

In any case, the Canticle seems believable enough. He isn't even a devotee of Andraste exactly. "The People will defend ourselves. Your host from the South may march alongside us." It seems like the Chantry would try harder to make him a devout believer instead of someone giving her the permission of fighting alongside.

 

She also gave him her own blade in this story.. and we know it exists. So maybe he was a warrior. And so was she, apparently. Since it was from her own scabbard. But that probably won't stop anyone from saying she was actually a Dwarven mage dreamer.

[Ghost Gal]

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

I'm sure Shartan was a real historical person in Thedas. Just because he happened to be bald doesn't mean he was really Solas in disguise, and just because he accomplished great things doesn't mean he was built up to be greater than he was by elven oral tradition (at least no more than Andraste or her other followers might have been) or a compilation of many elven figures. (Jeez, the lengths people will go to discredit elven characters just because they're elves... last I checked, Garahel and Ameridan were real elven heroes and badasses, so why can't Shartan be too?)

[RoseLawliet]

However, the Shartan that we know of comes from information that had been past down from an elven oral tradition, being changed in who knows how many ways over so many generations, before being written down (and no doubt additionally altered) by devout Andrastrians. 

 

From what I learned in college, oral tradition faces a whole lot less corruption/alteration over time than written tradition does. It had something to do with having to remember it differently. As a somewhat different example, I used to play the piano more often than I do today, and I had been memorizing very long songs. It was easy, because I could feel which part flowed into which part. Now that I memorize less and read from sheet music much more, it's easier to get lost in a song, play the same line twice, and make other mistakes like that.

 

A great example on how easily written texts are altered through many iterations of copying is the Christian Bible, if for no other reason than there are many copies to look at. Biblical scholars have identified passages that are most likely accidents from monks copying the same line twice. It's not necessarily malicious, or even intentional, but it does happen.

[Gervaise]

Since my original post I would like to make the point that I think the stained glass window probably was just a red herring.    It always seemed incongruous having the central panel at the head of the isle depicting Shartan when the Chantry had declared hundreds of years before it was heresy simply to mention him in connection with Andraste and all images of him bar one were destroyed, while the sole remaining image had the ears docked to make him look human.

 

Shartan may have been a devotee of Fen'Harel (without knowing him by that name) through finding or hearing stories about him as the rebel trickster warrior and passed these stories on as an inspiration to his own followers.    It stands to reason that there must have been survivors both of the followers of the evanuris (who remembered him as a trickster who entrapped the gods) and followers of Fen'Harel (who remembered him as the rebel who defeated tyrants).      The story then became part of elven folk lore.  

 

However, there is an oddity in that WoT2 has a picture that is meant to depict Andraste naming Shartan as her champion and yet the elf looks as though he is dressed as one of the sentinels.    Is this meant to be a genuine picture somewhere in Thedas or just the illustrators playing around with designs without realising how it would look? 

 

There is no getting away from the fact that the Chant bears little resemblance to the true history of Andraste, particularly the part where she is meant to have got within sight of the gates of Minrathous with her entire army.    The Valarian Fields may be shown in northern Tevinter now but their true location must be far to the south because Andraste's crusade never got further north than Nevarra and she was betrayed and captured from her stronghold there.   This being the case, whilst there was an historical Shartan since the Dalish themselves revere his memory, the story in the Canticle is, as suggested in WoT2, heavily overlaid by the earlier folk tale - as I have previously said, probably because he used the story himself as inspiration and thus it became associated with him.    Then the Chantry got a muddled version - because the Dalish weren't particularly enamoured with them at the time so the story was just overheard by someone who then passed it on.   A few years later the Chantry thought better of including it and removed it again.

 

Shartan was a real historical elf who did help Andraste with his slave followers and without whom the Battle of Valarian Fields might well have been lost.    However, I am convinced that the majority of the Canticle of Shartan is actually the story of Mythal and Fen'Harel marching together against the evanuris.