37 réponses à ce sujet

[Almostfaceman]

From what I learned in college, oral tradition faces a whole lot less corruption/alteration over time than written tradition does. It had something to do with having to remember it differently. As a somewhat different example, I used to play the piano more often than I do today, and I had been memorizing very long songs. It was easy, because I could feel which part flowed into which part. Now that I memorize less and read from sheet music much more, it's easier to get lost in a song, play the same line twice, and make other mistakes like that.

 

A great example on how easily written texts are altered through many iterations of copying is the Christian Bible, if for no other reason than there are many copies to look at. Biblical scholars have identified passages that are most likely accidents from monks copying the same line twice. It's not necessarily malicious, or even intentional, but it does happen.

 

No offense but this is completely irrelevant in a fictional setting. All the writers wanted, in making the elven history so murky, was to create an air of mystery about the elven past and give themselves latitude in moving the story forward involving that history. 

[In Exile]

I think it's worth taking into account. It makes my head spin too much if the writers are writing lore in one vein, but actually mean something entirely different and have too much yet to be revealed.

If they're trying to be ultra-realistic by emulating the lack of veracity of our own real ancient texts, it's taking it a bit too far imo. It makes nothing dependable or worth talking about.. which isn't exactly the greatest idea when world building. lol

In any case, the Canticle seems believable enough. He isn't even a devotee of Andraste exactly. "The People will defend ourselves. Your host from the South may march alongside us." It seems like the Chantry would try harder to make him a devout believer instead of someone giving her the permission of fighting alongside.

She also gave him her own blade in this story.. and we know it exists. So maybe he was a warrior. And so was she, apparently. Since it was from her own scabbard. But that probably won't stop anyone from saying she was actually a Dwarven mage dreamer.

But they know the truth. It's just that they won't reveal it to us by way of in-game codex or historical documentation. I think that's a cool feature.

[sonoko]

But isn't the Canticle of Shartan oficially banned and declared a heresy? Why this image of Shartan is still displayed in Chantry temples?

[Illegitimus]

But isn't the Canticle of Shartan oficially banned and declared a heresy? Why this image of Shartan is still displayed in Chantry temples?

 

They aren't going to destroy  centuries-old art just because it refers to to something doubleplusungood.  They aren't that much iike Oceania and the Catholic Church doesn't destroy art just because it represents saints they've decided never existed either.  

[RoseLawliet]

They aren't going to destroy  centuries-old art just because it refers to to something doubleplusungood.  They aren't that much iike Oceania and the Catholic Church doesn't destroy art just because it represents saints they've decided never existed either.  

 

They'll happily deface it, though!

[sonoko]

They don't have to destroy it though - they can simply stash it away, how it was often done in the real world history. Replacing a stained glass window or a painting is not that difficult. So either Shartan remains an officially venerated "saint" of the Chantry (though accounts of him are still considered heresy or apocrypha) or the developers wanted to make a statement by placing this image in temples. The stained-glass image being so similar to Solas' tarot card can't be a coincidence.

I don't think that Solas is Shartan (too simple) or that Shartan deliberately tried to imitate (if this was an Elder Scrolls game forum I'd use term "to mantle") Fen'Harel. But I like that parallels between Solas and Shartan make the events less clear and allow multiple interpretations, much like real life folklore and history.

[Gervaise]

That was the whole point of my original post.    The image occupies the central panel at the head of the aisle in the Redcliffe Chantry.   This would normally be the position of the most important figure in that particular community.   In Christian churches that is either taken by Jesus himself, Mary his Mother, or the saint to which the church is dedicated.    The Chantry has no official saints, although in Orlais Drakon is considered pretty much as such and Hessarian may well be viewed in a similar light in Tevinter but this is Ferelden.     The Chantry was established in Orlais not that long before relations soured with the Dalish.    At that point it would not have been the official religion in Ferelden, there they would simply have been Andrastrians, probably nearer to the set up we originally found in Haven.     In which case the most important figures would have been Andraste herself and Havard.    Yet the Redcliffe Chantry gives pride of place to Shartan.  Then once the Chantry does become established in Ferelden if that stained glass window was there, once word of him and images of him had been declared heretical, it would have been replaced, particularly when elves were condemned to the alienages as second class citizens who were further than humans from the Maker's light.    There is no way any devout Chantry cleric would have permitted it to remain.

 

Not only that but the image of Shartan does not show him as a warrior with the sword that Andraste is said to have given him as her champion but someone who looks far more like a mage holding a key: what is that supposed to symbolise?     So either the designers of that panel have no idea of how religious iconography works or it was a deliberate tease on the part of the developers.     Given what they also say about the Canticle of Shartan in WoT2, I'm inclined to the latter way of thinking.

[Illegitimus]

They don't have to destroy it though - they can simply stash it away, how it was often done in the real world history. Replacing a stained glass window or a painting is not that difficult. So either Shartan remains an officially venerated "saint" of the Chantry (though accounts of him are still considered heresy or apocrypha) 

 

Well I don't think they actually have totally erased Shartan.  They've just chosen to minimize his role by excluding the canticle devoted to him.  The mentions of him in the others are probably still there.  

[Gervaise]

Most of what I state is corroborated either by WoT2 or the novel Masked Empire.    In WoT2 there is the entire text of the (abridged version) of New Cumberland Chant of Light, as approved by Divine Justinia.   It contains various Dissonant Verses, including the Canticle of Shartan and this is the only part of the text where Shartan is mentioned.   In Masked Empire we learn that at the time of the Exalted March on the Dales, Divine Renata ordered the destruction of all Chantry art that included elves.   Note not just Shartan but any images of elves.    Then one famous artist of the day pleaded with her to spare his picture of Andraste with her disciples, including Shartan.  The Divine relented and allowed the work to survive but only if he altered the ears on Shartan so that he would look human.   So they did indeed erase all evidence of Shartan and his elven army from all religious iconography and no doubt secular works as well.   To even mention Shartan's involvement in Andraste's crusade is considered heresy.     This is emphasised in WoT2 when an excerpt from The Dissonant Verses by Sister Petrine about Shartan is almost entirely blacked out, reflecting the actions of a Chantry censor.     The full text can be found in DA2 if you recover Shartan's sword from a Pride Demon.    This is why when Divine Leliana officially restores the Canticle of Shartan to the Chant, it sparks a full scale rebellion in the Chantry.    Previously they didn't just minimise his role, they erased it.

[AlleluiaElizabeth]

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

I'm sure Shartan was a real historical person in Thedas. Just because he happened to be bald doesn't mean he was really Solas in disguise, and just because he accomplished great things doesn't mean he was built up to be greater than he was by elven oral tradition (at least no more than Andraste or her other followers might have been) or a compilation of many elven figures. (Jeez, the lengths people will go to discredit elven characters just because they're elves... last I checked, Garahel and Ameridan were real elven heroes and badasses, so why can't Shartan be too?)

I believe Shartan was a real historical figure and led the rebellion of elven slaves that fought alongside Andraste. I also believe the account we have in the Canticle of Shartan in WoT v2 (especially given the footnotes on it talking about the accuracy or inaccuracy of particular battles) is not *only* Shartan's story. While it was passed down via oral tradition, its details have been unintentionally conflated with older tales of the "trickster warrior" (who I assume is Solas) who led a rebellion of his own way back when. A tale that survived the fall of Arlathan and the long period of slavery in Tevinter. Likely for no other reason than it was a tale that gave the People hope cus it was about a great, clever liberator and his slave rebellion.

 

I don't see how believing Shartan and Solas' stories got mixed together over retellings is in any way "discrediting elven characters", though?

 

They don't have to destroy it though - they can simply stash it away, how it was often done in the real world history. Replacing a stained glass window or a painting is not that difficult. So either Shartan remains an officially venerated "saint" of the Chantry (though accounts of him are still considered heresy or apocrypha) or the developers wanted to make a statement by placing this image in temples. The stained-glass image being so similar to Solas' tarot card can't be a coincidence.

As interesting as this discussion is, back to that specific window in Redcliff for a sec: I'm more interested in the specific imagery they chose to depict Shartan with. Specifically the key he's holding in his hand that suspiciously looks like it fits the lock in Andraste's heart the next window over... Has anyone made a thread about that? 

[sonoko]

Conside

As interesting as this discussion is, back to that specific window in Redcliff for a sec: I'm more interested in the specific imagery they chose to depict Shartan with. Specifically the key he's holding in his hand that suspiciously looks like it fits the lock in Andraste's heart the next window over... Has anyone made a thread about that? 

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Shartan:"It appears that many Andrastians suspect, as a matter of salacious debate, that Shartan and Andraste were lovers during her rebellion against the Magisters of Tevinter.[8]" (Patrick Weekes. Dragon Age: The Masked Empire, pg. 109-110.)
It's really amusing to think about Solas/Herald romance and it's parallels to Maker/Andraste and Shartan/Andraste, especially considering that all the notable deeds, attributed in the Chant to the Maker, are in fact done by Solas.

[sonoko]

I've been thinking about these stupid Chantry windows (thay are like splinters in my brain!), and my conclusion is that it's the red herring, most likely. Probably the developers wanted the simlarities between Andraste and Shartan and the Herald and Solas to be noticeble, so that the players during their first playthrough thought that Solas is Shartan. So far it seems the most reasonable explanation to me.
(Still, if they wanted to play riddles and to draw attention to Solas/Shartan thing, they could have put, say, a half-hidden fresco with Shartan in Haven, which player could have restored in a war table mission, instead of placing these awesome but not-so-lore-friendly stained glass windows everywhere.)

[Arakat]

Yeah, I believe the similarities between Solas and Shartan were definitely done on purpose, even if it was just a red herring meant to mislead the players. I mean, I really don't think that the stained glass of Shartan and Solas' tarot card are that similar by accident.