359 réponses à ce sujet

[Mathias]

Everyone who's saying "Oh well MY Inquisitor had a happy ending because blah blah blah", just wait til Dragon Age 4 when we find out the Inquisitor is missing or something bad happened, or whatever. Because if we had this conversation back in the mid 2000s I would say "Oh yeah man....my Revan is a galactic hero and is living out his remaining years with his love Bastila." 

 

Ieldra does have a point in that sense that Bioware heroes do seem to get screwed over a lot. If not in the game they star in, then certainly in the next installment. These are our characters, but once the game ends, we lose control of them and Bioware is left to do whatever they want with them. And unfortunately it's a common trend that "The Hero" leaves his loved one and friends for whatever reason. 

 

Now I personally don't get too bent out of shape if something like that happens to my character, but when it keeps happening, I start to get annoyed.

[RepHope]

Unless Bioware made DA4 feature the Inquisitor, there was no way they could continue in the state they were in at the end of Inqusition. Otherwise the question becomes, "why aren't they the ones stopping Solas"? At least now, unlike the Warden and Hawke, there's a very good reason they aren't leading from the front lines.

 

And you will never get choices that diverge all that much. You simply can't portray the differences between an anti-Chantry Elven Inq that put Briala and Celene on the throne, and Leliana installed as Divine, versus Gaspard and Viv. You can't "dismantle the Chantry" unless you make that occur in EVERYONE'S game, otherwise it becomes to much of a difference to ignore or portray.

[RepHope]

Everyone who's saying "Oh well MY Inquisitor had a happy ending because blah blah blah", just wait til Dragon Age 4 when we find out the Inquisitor is missing or something bad happened, or whatever. Because if we had this conversation back in the mid 2000s I would say "Oh yeah man....my Revan is a galactic hero and is living out his remaining years with his love Bastila." 

 

Ieldra does have a point in that sense that Bioware heroes do seem to get screwed over a lot. If not in the game they star in, then certainly in the next installment. These are our characters, but once the game ends, we lose control of them and Bioware is left to do whatever they want with them. And unfortunately it's a common trend that "The Hero" leaves his loved one and friends for whatever reason. 

 

Now I personally don't get too bent out of shape if something like that happens to my character, but when it keeps happening, I start to get annoyed.

Good thing it looks like that won't be happening. Instead it looks like the Inq will serve a Duncan role, mentoring the new PC. And they can do this because A. the Inq can't die, so you won't end up with the Warden issue, and B. the Inq has a plausible reason to keep to the background while still keeping up the fight against Solas.

[Daerog]

The Warden, if you chose the DR, seems to be doing great. Going off on a mission due to personal choice instead of necessity, nobody being a bother, visiting a loved one if available, not having to take any orders since the Warden is a commander and the First Warden is busy doing other stuff, and basically doing what he or she wants to do.

 

The Inquisitor seems to be doing fine as well, it's not like a villain won or the Inquisitor died while trying to fulfill a mission.

 

Of course, they are all going to die eventually, but inevitable things are not really losses, they should be expected.

[Iakus]

Everyone who's saying "Oh well MY Inquisitor had a happy ending because blah blah blah", just wait til Dragon Age 4 when we find out the Inquisitor is missing or something bad happened, or whatever. Because if we had this conversation back in the mid 2000s I would say "Oh yeah man....my Revan is a galactic hero and is living out his remaining years with his love Bastila." 

 

Mine is.  I don't care what SWTOR says is canon.

 

 

 

Ieldra does have a point in that sense that Bioware heroes do seem to get screwed over a lot. If not in the game they star in, then certainly in the next installment. These are our characters, but once the game ends, we lose control of them and Bioware is left to do whatever they want with them. And unfortunately it's a common trend that "The Hero" leaves his loved one and friends for whatever reason.

Now I personally don't get too bent out of shape if something like that happens to my character, but when it keeps happening, I start to get annoyed.

SHould probably teach people not to beg for their characters to return.  Let the protagonist get the job done and go home.  

[Daerog]

Mine is.  I don't care what SWTOR says is canon.

 

 

Technically, none of it is Canon, it's "Legacy." If they can have alternate universes like Marvel and DC, then I guess some people can headcanon different universes for Star Wars as well.

[RepHope]

Technically, none of it is Canon, it's "Legacy." If they can have alternate universes like Marvel and DC, then I guess some people can headcanon different universes for Star Wars as well.

 

Oh thank God, it's non-canon? I'd heard it was actually canon. Now I can pretend Revan and the Exile didn't die stupid, idiotic deaths, and the Exile didn't get retconned into being Revan's cheerleader, and lost all of what made him special. The Emperor turning into wannabe Nihlus was the final insult. Bioware gave no fucks about respecting KOTOR2.

[Daerog]

Only the movies, the Clone Wars cartoon and Star Wars Rebels are currently Canon.

 

All else is Legacy.

 

If I remember correctly.

 

All that means to me is that they went with the comics excuse of "Oh, the stories you liked aren't gone, they were just another reality/universe/earth."

[phishface]

Why should there be a happy ending? Tragedy is probably the greatest and most satisfying dramatic genre. Would Hamlet be better if he'd killed Claudius with a massive sword in a boss fight, then lived happily ever after with Ophelia and his best bud Laertes?

 

I dearly hope that Bioware continues to thwart expectations and make things difficult and uncomfortable. Dull wish-fulfillment is for fan fiction.

[Nixou]

The Warden, if you chose the DR, seems to be doing great.

 

 

Too great if you ask me:

• His/her protégé blows up the Kirkwall Chantry and ignites the Mage-Templar war.
• His/her former comrades Wynne, Shale and Leliana try alongside Justinia to fix Anders' mess before it gets out of control: Warden's not here and therefore doesn't help. (And quite frankly, it's time to do some soul-searching when Shale has become more helpful than you)
• In desperation, when things do get out of control Justinia sends Leliana to bring him/her back to lead the Inquisition and browbeat mages and templars into behaving themselves: Warden's not even IN Thedas anymore.
• In his/her absence, Clarel flies into Cuckoo's land and is instrumental in causing the conclave debacle.

 

Yet for some reason, the Warden still seems to enjoy a stellar popularity. Given his/her post-blight behavior, I would have expected the griffon statues erected in his/her honor to be defaced with "F*cking Deserter" written all over it.

[Iakus]

Why should there be a happy ending? Tragedy is probably the greatest and most satisfying dramatic genre. Would Hamlet be better if he'd killed Claudius with a massive sword in a boss fight, then lived happily ever after with Ophelia and his best bud Laertes?

 

No, but then, the Tempest probably wouldn't have been as good if Caliban spent the play murdering everyone one by one, until Miranda finally manages to get lucky and off him.  Leaving her alone on an island with no hope of rescue.

 

And I'm sure A Midsummer Night's Dream would have been a bundle of laughs if it had ended with Oberon and TItania plunging into a bloody civil war among the faeries, with the humans unfortunate collateral damage,  thanks to Puck's machinations.

 

Which is beside the point anyway.  The idea of a game that reacts to player choice is to be able to shape the story you want.  And not everyone wants a tragedy.

[phishface]

 

Which is beside the point anyway.  The idea of a game that reacts to player choice is to be able to shape the story you want.  And not everyone wants a tragedy.

 

Don't be silly. You can make choices within the story, but you can't change the fundamental narrative. At that point you're just complaining that you don't like the story. In which case you can either find another story, or write the usual Mary Sue fan fiction drivel.

 

The writers have to be allowed to tell their story, and shouldn't be expected to twist it out of shape to please every fanciful whim of their audience.   

[Rappeldrache]

Why should there be a happy ending? Tragedy is probably the greatest and most satisfying dramatic genre. Would Hamlet be better if he'd killed Claudius with a massive sword in a boss fight, then lived happily ever after with Ophelia and his best bud Laertes?

 

I dearly hope that Bioware continues to thwart expectations and make things difficult and uncomfortable. Dull wish-fulfillment is for fan fiction.

 

Till Bioware still wants to earn some money, I really hope they are NOT doing this.   Not only because I'm a "Happy-Ending-Fan", but also because I don't want to see  Bioware "dying". Your example is not mutch up to date: Top ten of the most successful movies: Only one or two have sad ending, rest of them have Happy Endings.

 

We all should ask Bioware for a LOT OF ENDINGs, witch makes as many people happy as possible. If the people are angry or to sad about a Game ending, they don't buy the next game anymore (probebly). Less happy customers, less game purchases, less money. And if the don't sell a game, there will be no other one.

 

The developers should be understandable enough to say: "We MUST make as many customers happy as possible!" And if there are a lot of customers unhappy with something, the developers should ask themself: "What was wrong?" And even: "What could we do, to make this people happy again?"

Playing a game should be a impressive game experience for most of the gamers. And cause people are different, so they ask for different endings. And Bioware should try to create a great game-history AND to make a bit selection at the end. I'm sure it is possible, without spending to mutch money on it.

 

 

Two points witch drag down Bioware's reputation: When EA take them over and the end of ME3 (and their reaction on the fans, after). And till today Bioware have the reputation to NOT really care about their fans / customers. They can write as many "sweet" messages at the end of Trespasser, till they don't care about all the people who are so sad about the ending of Trespasser ....   ... all this "sweet words" have no value.

Seriously: Does ANYBODY really belive Bioware care about the sad & angry people here? And will do something? NOBODY here believe this, IF they know Bioware a bit.

 

My personal resume: Bioware makes the best RPG games ever, with the most stupid endings (ever). They care not a bit about there customers (but this is typical EA). And: If a nother game developer ever would start to make games like Bioware they .......... let's just pray for this.

I ask myself if Bioware would behave like this if they would NOT be part of EA ... ?

[Ieldra]

Don't be silly. You can make choices within the story, but you can't change the fundamental narrative. At that point you're just complaining that you don't like the story. In which case you can either find another story, or write the usual Mary Sue fan fiction drivel.
 
The writers have to be allowed to tell their story, and shouldn't be expected to twist it out of shape to please every fanciful whim of their audience.

DAO gave you a meaningful choice of how to end your story, including a few rather nice outcomes for the Warden. I don't think giving us that choice adversely affected the story. At all. That they retconned some of that later had nothing to do with making a better story, but to start later games with fewer variables.

[Ieldra]

Why should there be a happy ending? Tragedy is probably the greatest and most satisfying dramatic genre. Would Hamlet be better if he'd killed Claudius with a massive sword in a boss fight, then lived happily ever after with Ophelia and his best bud Laertes?
 
I dearly hope that Bioware continues to thwart expectations and make things difficult and uncomfortable. Dull wish-fulfillment is for fan fiction.

The thing is, if you watch a tragedy, you know in advance what you are watching. If you don't like them, you can avoid watching them. If a story turns into a tragedy with no advance warning, and it is your character who is affected, I see sufficient reason for disgruntlement. Not that Trespasser's outcome is tragic in any way. It's just unsatisfying, as far as the Inquisitor's personal fate is concerned.

Also, this is, for me, not at all about a classic happy ending. A canonical "lives happily ever after" would, in fact, be greatly more annoying than an ending like Trespasser's, because it would force the protagonist's future into a dead end. I do, however, rather prefer to end my story not going downward. If my protagonist is to be discarded, fine, let them go away rather than down, and let them keep any magical extras they've gained. Also, this outcome caters to people who like the Chantry, and who like their Inquisitors to become regular people again. These, I suppose, *are* quite happy about the outcome. I am not seeing why I shouldn't get an outcome that makes *me* happy now and then.

[Wulfram]

Why should there be a happy ending? Tragedy is probably the greatest and most satisfying dramatic genre. Would Hamlet be better if he'd killed Claudius with a massive sword in a boss fight, then lived happily ever after with Ophelia and his best bud Laertes?
 
I dearly hope that Bioware continues to thwart expectations and make things difficult and uncomfortable. Dull wish-fulfillment is for fan fiction.

If Hamlet was an RPG of the sort Dragon Age is, then yes it would be better like that, at least if the player does everything right. It probably still wouldn't be good, but it'd be better.

Firstly, one must remember that this is a game, a challenge of skill. When the player triumphs at such a challenge, there is an expectation of reward that doesn't exist in a play.

Secondly, satisfying tragedy arises from the character flaws or at least the mistakes of the tragic hero. But in Dragon Age there is no set protagonist, and thus no set flaws to the character. And while the writer can force the player character into a particular mistake, such a forced mistake is liable to be resented by the player if too much is hung on it.

There are no doubt players who are legitimately annoyed that they were forced to trust Solas with a place in the Inquisition rather than being allowed to chase that dodgy apostate out as soon as they became Inquisitor, if not earlier.

Of course the second issue can be avoided in most computer games, since they have more of a defined protagonist.

This isn't to say that the ending has to be purely happy, though. Sadness, loss and sacrifice can be there - I don't really have a problem with Trespasser's ending - but completing the game should feel like you've accomplished something worthwhile, should feel like a victory.

[QueenCrow]

I wish I could press "like" again, Wulfram.  You've made some very good points.

[phishface]

Would you not accept that the writers are better at writing than you and me? Much, much better. Comparing their writing talent to yours and mine would be to compare an elephant with a flea. And an unusually small, sickly flea at that.

 

Personally, I want to see the story the writers want to write, not the one that you want them to write. After all, they've done a pretty good job up until now, which is the reason you and I are here, complaining and arguing about their story.

[Iakus]

Also, this is, for me, not at all about a classic happy ending. A canonical "lives happily ever after" would, in fact, be greatly more annoying than an ending like Trespasser's, because it would force the protagonist's future into a dead end. I do, however, rather prefer to end my story not going downward. If my protagonist is to be discarded, fine, let them go away rather than down, and let them keep any magical extras they've gained. 

 

I don't know about your character, but mine's keeping the axe he made out of the bones of the demon possessed Hakkon-dragon that he killed himself, imbued with a Superb Lightning Rune he found by the light of a veilfire torch in a cavern he explored in his travels.  Even if he can't wield it aymore, he can hang it over the mantle or something.

 

 He'll just make due with the crossbow arm Sera and Dagna make for him...

[Almostfaceman]

Would you not accept that the writers are better at writing than you and me? Much, much better. Comparing their writing talent to yours and mine would be to compare an elephant with a flea. And an unusually small, sickly flea at that.

 

Personally, I want to see the story the writers want to write, not the one that you want them to write. After all, they've done a pretty good job up until now, which is the reason you and I are here, complaining and arguing about their story.

 

People who "don't write" critique literature all the time, even steering others away from purchasing. This "you can't write so shut up" argument is nonsense. Though, you were very polite about it, I'll give you that. :-)

[Rappeldrache]

Would you not accept that the writers are better at writing than you and me? Much, much better. Comparing their writing talent to yours and mine would be to compare an elephant with a flea. And an unusually small, sickly flea at that.

 

Personally, I want to see the story the writers want to write, not the one that you want them to write. After all, they've done a pretty good job up until now, which is the reason you and I are here, complaining and arguing about their story.

 

I would write probebly the same if I would be happy with the ending.

 

This is not a book, this is not a movie. It's a game where they gave us the impression / promise that we could decide "something". Where we can "live" our character and decide his / her destiny (as far as possible). And Bioware make a lot of advertising with this "decision-possibilitys". 

 

I see the same discussion starting like in ME3 about "artistic freedom".   

[Al Foley]

I would write probebly the same if I would be happy with the ending.

 

This is not a book, this is not a movie. It's a game where they gave us the impression / promise that we could decide "something". Where we can "live" our character and decide his / her destiny (as far as possible). And Bioware make a lot of advertising with this "decision-possibilitys". 

 

I see the same discussion starting like in ME3 about "artistic freedom". 

**** happens.

[QueenCrow]

Would you not accept that the writers are better at writing than you and me? Much, much better. Comparing their writing talent to yours and mine would be to compare an elephant with a flea. And an unusually small, sickly flea at that.

 

Personally, I want to see the story the writers want to write, not the one that you want them to write. After all, they've done a pretty good job up until now, which is the reason you and I are here, complaining and arguing about their story.

 

I think you're making an assumption that there are no capable writers among those who play Dragon Age.  Though you are more than qualified to speak for yourself, I can assure you that your assumption as applied to what I perceive as a general "you" is incorrect.

 

A writer's skill involves language mechanics, the ability to relate interesting social commentary, and a measure of talent at feeling the pulse of one's audience.  I imagine these threads are about critical reaction and as such, are a valuable tool for any writer who would like to improve.

 

For my part, I like the tragedy.  If I could play any of Shakespeare's mastery, it would be Ophelia who comes out devoid of win.  However, I realize what a bleak world this would be if everyone was just like me.  People should be themselves.  Being you and me is already taken.

[Ieldra]

Would you not accept that the writers are better at writing than you and me? Much, much better. Comparing their writing talent to yours and mine would be to compare an elephant with a flea. And an unusually small, sickly flea at that.
 
Personally, I want to see the story the writers want to write, not the one that you want them to write. After all, they've done a pretty good job up until now, which is the reason you and I are here, complaining and arguing about their story.

The argument that I should accept what I'm given because its creators are professionals is fallacious. That the writers are professionals doesn't make them immune to criticism, nor their story design by definition better than something I could come up with. All I concede is that they have vastly more experience at writing characters in a CRPG under the constraints of limited resources such as they exist in game development, and that they do that more efficiently than I could. I also concede that Gaider and Weekes have finished reasonably good books which I have not, so they are by definition better writers of books than I am. Regarding story design, however, I do claim some competence given that I've been doing that for decades in my tabletop RPGs. The fact is, actually, that Bioware's stories were rarely really good. They were servicable, and a point could be made that rpg stories are extremely hard to make really good, perhaps even impossible, because they must account for variables caused by player actions.

Also, I make no claim of "better" or "worse" in any objective sense. I have, indeed, conceded - see the OP - that Trespasser's ending is good from a storytelling viewpoint. I do claim, however, that it would be as good if there was an option to keep the Mark or to retain the Inquisition as an independent organization. Making the Inquisitor lose the Mark, or the inquisition disband or subservient to the Chantry has nothing to do with good storytelling. One could, perhaps, claim, that it was necessary to limit the variables for the next chapter, but that's the only argument I can think of with some validity.

[KaiserShep]

Why should there be a happy ending? Tragedy is probably the greatest and most satisfying dramatic genre. Would Hamlet be better if he'd killed Claudius with a massive sword in a boss fight, then lived happily ever after with Ophelia and his best bud Laertes?
 
I dearly hope that Bioware continues to thwart expectations and make things difficult and uncomfortable. Dull wish-fulfillment is for fan fiction.

Ok, but not everything should end in tragedy. It's not automatically better all the time.