359 réponses à ce sujet

[Reznore57]

Also, I make no claim of "better" or "worse" in any objective sense. I have, indeed, conceded - see the OP - that Trespasser's ending is good from a storytelling viewpoint. I do claim, however, that it would be as good if there was an option to keep the Mark or to retain the Inquisition as an independent organization. Making the Inquisitor lose the Mark, or the inquisition disband or subservient to the Chantry has nothing to do with good storytelling. One could, perhaps, claim, that it was necessary to limit the variables for the next chapter, but that's the only argument I can think of with some validity.

 

Except from a story point of view , IMHO , the mark and the new theme emerging didn't work together.

The mark made the Inquisitor some kind of demi God (power of a forgotten god stuck in your hand blablabla )...You even have the talk with Solas when he goes "Does the mark changed you...your spirit?", the Inquisitor and Cole are the only one Solas truly can see as peers and friends.

Anyway you're a very special snowflake , Solas can respect your special snowflakes a** except the world isn't special enough for him to save .

Suddenly you get thrown back with the rest , you're as unspecial as the world and its people as far as magic goes , and you have to stop this "God" or prove him this world as mundane as it is is worth something.

[KaiserShep]

Would you not accept that the writers are better at writing than you and me? Much, much better. Comparing their writing talent to yours and mine would be to compare an elephant with a flea. And an unusually small, sickly flea at that.

Personally, I want to see the story the writers want to write, not the one that you want them to write. After all, they've done a pretty good job up until now, which is the reason you and I are here, complaining and arguing about their story.

Well, they're not gods among scribes so they're not immune to criticism, but it seems to me that wanting the writers to write what they want to write is usually fine and good until they start going in a direction you may not want them to. Like, what if the next game actually has a real happy ending to it? Will it be because the writers wanted it, or will they be accused of pandering to the audience?

[QueenCrow]

Well, they're not gods among scribes so they're not immune to criticism, but it seems to me that wanting the writers to write what they want to write is usually fine and good until they start going in a direction you may not want them to. Like, what if the next game actually has a real happy ending to it? Will it be because the writers wanted it, or will they be accused of pandering to the audience?

 

Without a doubt, some measure of pandering to the audience is necessary when the ultimate goal is to sell video games.  Endings could have been included that can pander to the tradegy crowd, the happily-ever-after crowd, and those in between.  I've seen it happen before in endings where, depending upon one's choices, the hero could end up dead, King/Queen, or wanerding off into the Warden sunset.

[phishface]

Useful criticism is usually a bit more sophisticated than 'I wanted to see pink unicornes and prety rainbows an feel all fuzzy but I didn't and now I'm mad'. But never mind, this seems to be a demographic issue, and I'm bowing out of it.  

[KaiserShep]

Sure, provided that the OP's criticism could be boiled down to one exaggerated sentence.

[Ieldra]

Except from a story point of view , IMHO , the mark and the new theme emerging didn't work together.
The mark made the Inquisitor some kind of demi God (power of a forgotten god stuck in your hand blablabla )...You even have the talk with Solas when he goes "Does the mark changed you...your spirit?", the Inquisitor and Cole are the only one Solas truly can see as peers and friends.
Anyway you're a very special snowflake , Solas can respect your special snowflakes a** except the world isn't special enough for him to save .
Suddenly you get thrown back with the rest , you're as unspecial as the world and its people as far as magic goes , and you have to stop this "God" or prove him this world as mundane as it is is worth something.

That's one possible interpretation. I could come up with a handful of others. Also, the Inquisitor won't be the central character of the next chapter, and the motivations for why I do something in an rpg should be mine to determine, as it was in DAI. The attempt to infuse the protagonist with motivations and emotions by fiat of the writers and independently from the player was part of what made ME3 so problematic. If they go that way with the next game, it will end like ME3. I'd rather not see that.

[Reznore57]

That's one possible interpretation. I could come up with a handful of others. Also, the Inquisitor won't be the central character of the next chapter, and the motivations for why I do something in an rpg should be mine to determine, as it was in DAI. The attempt to infuse the protagonist with motivations and emotions by fiat of the writers and independently from the player was part of what made ME3 so problematic. If they go that way with the next game, it will end like ME3. I'd rather not see that.

 

But that's just what the Inquisitor represent , same happened in DAI you get no choice about fighting Cory or not .

Same way people see you as the Herald of Andraste , you can have an opinion about it but you're still forced into that role.

In Trespasser there was no way to react about the loss of the mark , good or bad .

[robertthebard]

Till Bioware still wants to earn some money, I really hope they are NOT doing this.   Not only because I'm a "Happy-Ending-Fan", but also because I don't want to see  Bioware "dying". Your example is not mutch up to date: Top ten of the most successful movies: Only one or two have sad ending, rest of them have Happy Endings.
 
We all should ask Bioware for a LOT OF ENDINGs, witch makes as many people happy as possible. If the people are angry or to sad about a Game ending, they don't buy the next game anymore (probebly). Less happy customers, less game purchases, less money. And if the don't sell a game, there will be no other one.
 
The developers should be understandable enough to say: "We MUST make as many customers happy as possible!" And if there are a lot of customers unhappy with something, the developers should ask themself: "What was wrong?" And even: "What could we do, to make this people happy again?"
Playing a game should be a impressive game experience for most of the gamers. And cause people are different, so they ask for different endings. And Bioware should try to create a great game-history AND to make a bit selection at the end. I'm sure it is possible, without spending to mutch money on it.
 
 
Two points witch drag down Bioware's reputation: When EA take them over and the end of ME3 (and their reaction on the fans, after). And till today Bioware have the reputation to NOT really care about their fans / customers. They can write as many "sweet" messages at the end of Trespasser, till they don't care about all the people who are so sad about the ending of Trespasser ....   ... all this "sweet words" have no value.
Seriously: Does ANYBODY really belive Bioware care about the sad & angry people here? And will do something? NOBODY here believe this, IF they know Bioware a bit.
 
My personal resume: Bioware makes the best RPG games ever, with the most stupid endings (ever). They care not a bit about there customers (but this is typical EA). And: If a nother game developer ever would start to make games like Bioware they .......... let's just pray for this.
I ask myself if Bioware would behave like this if they would NOT be part of EA ... ?

So far there's three or four people that state, or hint at not buying a classic tragedy. I'm sure you'll break the company by not buying it...

[Almostfaceman]

Useful criticism is usually a bit more sophisticated than 'I wanted to see pink unicornes and prety rainbows an feel all fuzzy but I didn't and now I'm mad'. But never mind, this seems to be a demographic issue, and I'm bowing out of it.  

 

Depends on how you look at it. If (and I'm not conceding your summation of the OP's point) we're looking for critique of a novel and the writing, yes, that would be poor criticism. If, on the other hand, we're talking about the needs and wants of customers... it's rather valuable for a customer to tell a company what they want. Forums are low-cost market research. 

[Rappeldrache]

Depends on how you look at it. If (and I'm not conceding your summation of the OP's point) we're looking for critique of a novel and the writing, yes, that would be poor criticism. If, on the other hand, we're talking about the needs and wants of customers... it's rather valuable for a customer to tell a company what they want. Forums are low-cost market research. 

 

It isn't so easy.

 

An example (I hope I can explain it in english    ): There have been a few Threads after Trespasser about: How sad,horrible and cruel the ending is for some people (about Solas, about the lost limb, about "no choices", about losing the Inquisition). I remmeber one of the first threads. It was like: 10 people told how sad they are, 8 people told that everything is great for them. BUT: From this "satisfied" 8 people there where about 5 who wrote A LOT. Really a lot and in every thread about "Endings". They were sometimes a bit rude and unfriendly. The 10 "sad customers", they wrote not so mutch. Only a few of them (me for example).

 

What impression does this give you? 10 say: "Not good ending". 8 say: "Great ending". But you see "only" a lot of messages who say: "Great done, you are soo wonderful, Bioware". And you don't recognize "This are always the same Fan-Boys and Girls. (Not an insult )

A few customers were SO sad, that I wrote them a personal message.And so I know from a few:They never came back here to the forum.   They have just a few posts, wrote down what they have to say and never came back. I don't thing they are worser customers than the "Fans". They just don't use a forum, but they give their money. 

 

So the "opinions" here in the forum are a bit ... insecure. You must look VERY accurate to REALLY see the opinion of the customers, and not only of the enthusiastic fans (who write a lot).

[Flurdt Vash]

As with the games before, we will have to wait till the next game to see what happens (Ultimately) with the last. Story Choices dependent of course 

 

Good example, if your Warden lived, we have learned that he/she is out trying to find a cure for the Calling. Thats an ongoing apparently. What ever happened to Hawke from DA2, well we found that out in DAI as well, so with this, I really think we wont find out EVERYTHING (again, story choices dependent here) until the next game 

 

Sooo, I really got off topic there, anyway what I was going to say *cough cough* was that it would be cool if the next game had a definitive Main Hero ending, not Death necessarily (I dont want to get into that conversation, there are enough posts about the Bitter Sweet Ending, and I dont like it), but a Hero that has an ending, Death could be an option, or rides of into the sunset with (insert romance) or simply puts up the sword/staff to run a nice little Tavern in Rivain, something like this would be neat .... just my opinion 

 

Ohh and @Rappeldrache

I LOVE the last post, but Im out likes so Ill just say that here lol 

[Rappeldrache]

 

Ohh and @ Rappeldrache

I LOVE the last post, but Im out of likes so Ill say that here lol 

 

Is this serious .... ?  

 

 

I would prefer it to know my Hero's destiny now. And not wait till Bioware makes something horrible with it.   I would be very happy if Bioware would NOT do always something cruel to our "older" Heros. Or the newer ones ....   Or give us the decision ...

[Ieldra]

As with the games before, we will have to wait till the next game to see what happens (Ultimately) with the last. Story Choices dependent of course 
 
Good example, if your Warden lived, we have learned that he/she is out trying to find a cure for the Calling. Thats an ongoing apparently. What ever happened to Hawke from DA2, well we found that out in DAI as well, so with this, I really think we wont find out EVERYTHING (again, story choices dependent here) until the next game 
 
Sooo, I really got off topic there, anyway what I was going to say *cough cough* was that it would be cool if the next game had a definitive Main Hero ending, not Death necessarily (I dont want to get into that conversation, there are enough posts about the Bitter Sweet Ending, and I dont like it), but a Hero that has an ending, Death could be an option, or rides of into the sunset with (insert romance) or simply puts up the sword/staff to run a nice little Tavern in Rivain, something like this would be neat .... just my opinion

A "definitive" ending ends in a static state, and I don't want that. I highly prefer an open ending where I can imagine these characters to be involved in more interesting events, though on a smaller scale of course. Having set that, if a set of optional outcomes includes one open variant, that would be ok.

I'd also like to repeat that I'm ok with the events surrounding the Inquisitor at the end of Trespasser, and with the story potential in the outcome if you disband the Inquisition. I just object to the fact that I did not have an option to avoid the powering down of the Inquisition as an independent faction, or the Inquisitor personally by losing the Mark. There are also similarities to ME in that the impact of your decisions appears to be inversely proportional to their importance.

[Secret Rare]

DAO gave you a meaningful choice of how to end your story, including a few rather nice outcomes for the Warden. I don't think giving us that choice adversely affected the story. At all. That they retconned some of that later had nothing to do with making a better story, but to start later games with fewer variables.

Inquisition with trespasser was an overall good experience for me,the loss of an harm and the anchor related to it, or of an organization who already absolved its task isn't a problem but a good closure,especially because these losses are not by accident(ME3) but tightly correlated to the story .

-The losses of the anchor is well orchestrated,it is basically an ancient elven key artifact of whom the character isn't fully capable to understand,the arm was exposed to it after a ritual incomplete and the situation got degenerated after some years,Solas himself was probably not capable to do anything for the Inquisitor during the main game (before that the arm was irremediable damaged)due to lack of power.

Plus the anchor wasn't yours it belonged to the wolf.

 

-The Inquisition disbanded and dissolved as an indipendent organization was well orchestrated  and it's pretty realistic.

You cannot honestly beleive that a military organization which already absolved the task of which it was formed in the first place,will continue to grow like a cancer into the territory of two sovereignity nations without encounter heavy resistance while the others nobles will  glance happily without doing nothing.

 

The Inquisitor absolved the task and now is free to continue to pursue Solas by others means and possibly under the authority of the Divine not as an indipendent and unwelcomed organization in sovereignity territory.

 

As for the whole DAO meaningful choices/outcomes i'm firmily of the opinion that even if those choices helped DAO and it's narrative as well as it's replayability value,those choices felt boiled down in the overall experience of the franchisee because they were often retconned or artificially negated to put the story in the predefined trail.

Take the Warden choice,does it makes a substantial difference to have Loghain/Alistair/Stroud? No is the same thing

Does it make a difference to have the warden dead or not? No it's the same thing,while you can argue that there is a difference in DAO,this difference is pretty much non existent in DAI,since that the character is basically a non factor even if the story took place in their home surf.

Does it make a substantial difference to have saved the essence of the final boss of DAO? NO because even if that choice seemed important beyond to just define your character in that moment,it was basically resolved into a meaningless smokescreen,little family comedy/drama,just to force the story on a path that you didn't chose in the keep.

So no i'm all against the DAO illusion of choices,not because they are an illusion (is always like that in Bioware games) but because sometime they do have the feeling to be earth shattering decision,while in truth they aren't meant to impact the story of the franchise and they are destinated to be resolved/ignored to allineate the story to the writers path.

[Aren]

Nah,Inquisitor didn't lose

[ArianaGBSA]

Nah,Inquisitor didn't lose

Losing or winning depends on your goals, nothing is "losing" or "winning" if you don't have a goal. Even being alive is only "winning" if you want to, for others it may be a curse (as some vampires said countless times in fiction). So Inquisition won and lost, for some players it was a win for other a lose. As simples as that.

[Almostfaceman]

It isn't so easy.

 

An example (I hope I can explain it in english    ): There have been a few Threads after Trespasser about: How sad,horrible and cruel the ending is for some people (about Solas, about the lost limb, about "no choices", about losing the Inquisition). I remmeber one of the first threads. It was like: 10 people told how sad they are, 8 people told that everything is great for them. BUT: From this "satisfied" 8 people there where about 5 who wrote A LOT. Really a lot and in every thread about "Endings". They were sometimes a bit rude and unfriendly. The 10 "sad customers", they wrote not so mutch. Only a few of them (me for example).

 

What impression does this give you? 10 say: "Not good ending". 8 say: "Great ending". But you see "only" a lot of messages who say: "Great done, you are soo wonderful, Bioware". And you don't recognize "This are always the same Fan-Boys and Girls. (Not an insult )

A few customers were SO sad, that I wrote them a personal message.And so I know from a few:They never came back here to the forum.   They have just a few posts, wrote down what they have to say and never came back. I don't thing they are worser customers than the "Fans". They just don't use a forum, but they give their money. 

 

So the "opinions" here in the forum are a bit ... insecure. You must look VERY accurate to REALLY see the opinion of the customers, and not only of the enthusiastic fans (who write a lot).

 

Well of course it's not "easy". Easy... or easier was what I did for a living for a while. You take what the business wants to research and you put up a questionnaire that put the answers in quantifiable buckets. Still, they do have people reading the forums. They do take away information from them. There are several instances where Bioware has taken "fan feedback" and put it in their games. The most easily identifiable is the Tali romance, where Bioware developers said they gave that character a romance because of the interest in her from fans. Another example is the Mass Effect "ending" dlc. 

 

Even TV shows do it, Supernatural has entire episodes that pay homage to the fan base on their message boards community. 

[Rappeldrache]

 The most easily identifiable is the Tali romance, where Bioware developers said they gave that character a romance because of the interest in her from fans. Another example is the Mass Effect "ending" dlc. 

 

Even TV shows do it, Supernatural has entire episodes that pay homage to the fan base on their message boards community. 

 

Puhh, hihihi I'm happy you understand what I wrote. Was a bit like "stumble through a english-rocky-desert".

 

Immediate after ME3 release I was in the Official Bioware Forum (was a nother, older one - not this here). And it was really a "shocking experience": So many people were SOOO angry & sad (about the ending) and the moderators dit not answer for a long time. And than you could read finally an "Official comment from Bioware": I was really displace how arrogant they talked to the fans. I will never forget how "Official Bioware" treated their fans the first time after release. And they wrote not only one message. 

It was not like: "A few people are displeased and Bioware react after some time." It was: A LOT, LOT, LOT of people were really pissed and Bioware treated them like .... stupid, little children.    Right in the middle of all this you could find all the "Bioware Fan-Girls & Boys" who insulted & poke the angry fans. It was ..... very chaotic.

And after A LONG TIME Bioware finally made a ...... DLC. The DLC was not really "serious", for my personal feeling (it was a bit like: We MUST do it, but we don't really want to ...). I feld framed (right word?).

You know what saved the Mass Effect Trilogy (after my opinion): A Fan-made mod. I suppose you know "The MEHEM Mod" ( http://www.nexusmods...fect3/mods/66/?) FANS had to save the whole ME Trilogy (for a lot of other Fans, not for all of course). At last it was NOT Bioware. Till today I think Bioware should be ashamed about this. This mod is till today a sign of Biowares ME fail ( just after my personal opinion).

Bioware seem to have some "Ending-rpoblems" with their games. They should rethink a bit their placement.

 

To be honest: I haven't seen until now that Bioware react on customers request / asking. This "Tali romance request", I haven't really notice. Sorry. I made a long "Bioware break" after the ME3 ending ...

 

 

After the ending of DAI everything was ok, but Trespasser was a bit cruel at the end, a bit to mutch for a lot of people, and so: Look how many people wrote here in the forum about the Trespasser ending. A few other game devoloper companys would react and make something (not all of course) ... a little goodie to make all this people happy again. Dit anybody really believed that Bioware would do something? I thought they chanced (till ME3 disaster) ... at the beginning ... but now .. I'm back in reality and very dissapointed.

 

The last chance for all this unhappy customers could be a mod (again). I hope they finally succeed to create a "Frostbite Engine Tool" (to make "bigger" mods ) and than ... it could be possible that again a mod have to save a "Bioware game ending" for a lot of fans (not for all, of course). Should be embarrassing for sutch a big company like EA / Bioware (my personal opinion).

 

You must admit, if you look accurate: There are A LOT of people complain about the ending of Trespasser. Only thing I really don't understand (honestly): Why so many of them write just so less (often just one or two messages).   I looked accurate to their accounts: Seem not to be second or theird accounts. I can't explain ....

[Sir George Parr]

Here's a general comment on power fantasies:

There is a difference between getting everything you dream of, getting something of what you really want, and getting nothing. I don't need the former, but I also don't want the latter, and the plain fact is that of the two things - apart from survival - I wanted my Inquisitor to take away from her story, she got nothing. I wanted the Mark and the continuance of the Inquisition as an inpedendent organization - basically how things were before Trespasser. A choice of one of those in the end would've been perfectly fine. As I said in the OP, I would've given the other hand to keep the Mark.

About losing an arm, I'm sorry but it's not insignificant. Just imagine *you* losing an arm. I don't have a problem with losing the hand as such in this instance, rather than the magical extra attached to it, but to say it's not significant is delusional.

It could be a lot worse. Bioware could have drawn inspiration from medieval organisations like Knights hospitaller or Knights Templar. Then reworked events surrounding the down fall of these monastic orders into the game.

[CoM Solaufein]

Fixed

Next time, Bioware, can we please have a hero who doesn't lose in the end a limb?

[tanuki]

After the ending of DAI everything was ok, but Trespasser was a bit cruel at the end, a bit to mutch for a lot of people, and so: Look how many people wrote here in the forum about the Trespasser ending. A few other game devoloper companys would react and make something (not all of course) ... a little goodie to make all this people happy again. Dit anybody really believed that Bioware would do something? I thought they chanced (till ME3 disaster) ... at the beginning ... but now .. I'm back in reality and very dissapointed.

I hated ME3 ending as much as other person, I still am annoyed because of it, but, unlike ME3 ending, Trespasser got very positive reactions not only here, but from most of people on other forums too. At least that's what I saw. Trespasser ending as it is is totally not a problem for me.

 

And I don't think my Inquisitor lose (even though she romanced Solas ) If anything, Trespasser ending allows for great possibilities for her future and story continuation. The question is, what Bioware will decide to do with it (they still can make her loser in the future game or make her just disappear, that is the thing that bothers me the most now)

[Aramintai]

I agree with original poster in general, it does look like a trend now in BioWare games - when the protagonist becomes too powerful and accumulates all the nice things, Bioware quetly sweeps him under the rug because of some contrived, trivial reason. And while ME3 endings were simply bad, Revan's character from KOTOR was butchered by irreverent writers of TOR, DA series protagonists are forced into obsucurity because of another reason - new protagonist for each installment. So unless devs change their minds and continue next installments of DA with Inquisitor or prior protagonists they will keep on dissapearing.

 

I think the only ending for the protagonist that I truly liked was in Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal. It had meaningful and impactful choice and the feeling of accomplishment. 

[Ieldra]

I agree with original poster in general, it does look like a trend now in BioWare games - when the protagonist becomes too powerful and accumulates all the nice things, Bioware quetly sweeps him under the rug because of some contrived, trivial reason. And while ME3 endings were simply bad, Revan's character from KOTOR was butchered by irreverant writers of TOR, DA series protagonists are forced into obsucurity because of another reason - new protagonist for each installment. So unless devs change their minds and continue next installments of DA with Inquisitor or prior protagonists they will keep on dissapearing.

Actually, to disappear would've been perfectly fine for my Inquisitor - if it had been with the Mark intact. It would've meant her washing her hands of the religious crap and go somewhere far away to explore her unusual magic. Well, normally she wouldn't turn her back on the necessity to oppose Solas, but if the choice was to take part in shaping the future witout the mark and going away with it, she'd have gone away and I'd have been perfectly ok with it.
 

I think the only ending for the protagonist that I truly liked was in Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal. It had meaningful and impactful choice and the feeling of accomplishment.

I recall that with considerable fondness, indeed. For each character I played through it, who and what she was in my mind almost predetermined how she'd choose in the end, but I still spent some time pondering.

If I think of the other endings I liked at their time - KotOR's and DAO's - it seems indeed that their protagonists were screwed over later in order to make them irrelevant (I'm fine with DAO's eventual outcome, but the annoying pattern exists nonetheless. It's just that in that case, I would've chosen the path the DA team eventually made canon for myself, had there been a choice).

However, I wouldn't like a continuing protagonist. The chance is too high they'd give that one fixed character traits I don't like, like it was with Shepard, and I'd have to spend all my playing time fighting the writers in my mind as I'd try to wriggle out of being someone I don't like. At least, as it is now, if they do that it's only for one game.

[Savber100]

They could've made a story about learning to control it instead. But no, that would make the Inquisitor actually different from the standard hero type they're always using. I dislike the symbolism of taking it away to make the Inquisitor "normal" again and restore the status quo a great deal more, in fact, it wouldn't be hyperbole to say that I hate it.

Because the control of great power was never a conflict or a story that a Bioware hero has ever faced before... 

He's not "normal". 

He lost his mark. BIg-whooping-deal. He's more free and secure to do what he need to do, not to mention the vast array of contacts and people who still worship him. 

The Inquisitor's greatness wasn't defined by his mark but by the actions and the choices made based on the tools in his disposal. 

[Ieldra]

The Inquisitor's greatness wasn't defined by his mark but by the actions and the choices made based on the tools in his disposal. 

Not the point. I don't care by which traits "the" Inquisitor is "defined". I envisioned my Inquisitor as placing high value in the Mark and in the independence of her organization. These are *the* two things I wanted her to take away from this story. That both are taken away (from her, rather than by her) makes me feel I lost in the end.