359 réponses à ce sujet

[Rappeldrache]

1.) I hated ME3 ending as much as other person, I still am annoyed because of it, but, unlike ME3 ending, Trespasser got very positive reactions not only here, but from most of people on other forums too. At least that's what I saw. Trespasser ending as it is is totally not a problem for me.

 

2.) And I don't think my Inquisitor lose (even though she romanced Solas ) If anything, Trespasser ending allows for great possibilities for her future and story continuation. The question is, what Bioware will decide to do with it (they still can make her loser in the future game or make her just disappear, that is the thing that bothers me the most now)

 

 

1.) That's ture, you are right: Trespasser got a lot of positive reactions. But the end of Trespasser got also negative reactions, too. After DAI ending it was like 90 % said: Great ending, thanks Bioware. The 10 % who were not happy ... it was still all right for them, somehow. I loved the DAI ending. Not really "closed" but you could make your own imaginations what happen later.

 

But after Trespasser it was like: 60 % liked the ending. The other 40 % were really, really upset (different reasons)  - BUT most of them liked Trespasser, but NOT the Trespasser ending. And about 40 % is A LOT.

To be honest: I can only say my subjective observation about the Official Forum, sorry. I don't have the time for other forums. I play SWToR, too, so I don't have a lot gaming-time.

 

I like Trespasser, too. I just love it. I would love it to have more "Trespasser" - I would pay a lot of more money for it. But the ending was .... violent (for my personal sense). And the player had no possibility to avoid or chance somehow this cruel destiny. This was my personal feeling. I feeld like: Again, Bioware knocked my character down and again I can do NOTHING to avoid this.

Spoiler

I had the impression the "Bioware-people" look to mutch "Games of Thrones". But I don't want that my character in DA is burned alive or cheated by his friends and sting down (I really don't want to play Cesar or Jon Stark   ).

And: This is not a movie or a serial or a book, it's an interactive game. Or: It should be. A interactive game should give me a little bit the possibility to DO something, and not just to look, to be just the audience.

 

 

2.) WHY does Bioware decide what happen to my character in the future? They have done this to all my characters and it was ALWAYs horrible. Just leave my character alone, Bioware. Let us make our fanart and pictures and storys about "What happen to her / him".

Bioware don't realize that a lof of players (not all, of course) LOVE their characters. They played and suffer and loved and cry with them. They are "their Babys" somehow. And Bioware should do their best to support this feeling and not to snatch the character out of our hands and to make something cruel, horrible with it. Than they give us our "brocken, crippeld, lost, death, heartbroken" character back and murmur something about "artistic freedom".

 

A few people like this cruelness of course, but a lot of people hat it. And we ALL are Bioware fans and customers.

 

The solution is so simple, for ALL players: Giving different choices (only respective the personal destiny of the hero)! I don't want to decide individual what happen to Thedas.

[Mr.House]

You're pulling numbers out of thin air unless you have a sample poll to back it up. Trespasser ending has been more positive with very small vocal outcry for it. It is the opposite of ME3 and DAis endings which where heavily criticized on this site and off this site because it was rushed and was waaaay too happy with no options of failure or price (DAI of course, ME3 fallout was far bigger and more justified and not because it was not a happy ending) I've seen less criticism towards Traspassers ending then I did to DAI's base game ending and even DA2s on and off this site.

[phishface]

 

2.) WHY does Bioware decide what happen to my character in the future?

 

Because Bioware, not you, created every tiny little thing about your character. Every pixel, every spoken word, the curve of the nose, the glint in the eye, every tree and puddle. Every choice you think you made was pre-programmed by a team of men and women in a sweaty office in Canada. They also created Thedas, and everything in it. They made a make-believe world, not you. Then they, not you, wrote a story that takes place in their world. You pay for the right of entering that world. And you choose a name. And you occasionally make one of several pre-programmed choices. That's it.

 

But the things you character's said and done, the choices s/he made, have been said and made by millions of other people around the globe. You've cannot and have not done anything original in the game. You are a consumer of this story, not a writer. You are audience not artist.

 

But it's a great story, with great characters, in a beautiful world. So sit back and enjoy the ride.

[QueenCrow]

 Forums are low-cost market research. 

 

True enough, and very good point.  But I would add that forums as low-cost market research are limited to the people who actually care enough to come to the forum and offer feedback.  Two out of three DAI players in my household have not bothered with feedback.  Two out of three have simply moved on to something else with failed interest in Dragon Age.

 

I hope the general average is better.

[electrifried]

Yeah I just realised how bad of a deal the Inquisitor got. Forced to be a leader of a massive army by sheer dumb luck, used for all sorts of people's plans and personal issues, loses an arm, my char gets her heart broken and everything is going to go downhill from here.

Would have been nice to get more of a personality out of the Inquisitor too...but at least the twist with Solas at the end made up for the rest of the lacklustre story. 

[Ieldra]

True enough, and very good point.  But I would add that forums as low-cost market research are limited to the people who actually care enough to come to the forum and offer feedback.  Two out of three DAI players in my household have not bothered with feedback.  Two out of three have simply moved on to something else with failed interest in Dragon Age.

 

I hope the general average is better.

I rather suspect it's worse. If a tenth of all players bother with feedback in any form, that's probably a very good percentage.

 

Forums are not at all representative of all players. If anything, they're representative of fans. The thing about fans as a group is not that they're representative of the players, but that they're multipliers. They disproportionately influence opinions. 

 

Were I a writer, I'd rather see the forums as a source of inspiration than of representative opinion. What I hope for when I write things like this thread is a writer picking it up and coming up with ideas to make outcomes that are different because breaking a pattern is interesting, not with an EA representative saying "Customer response is unsatisfactory, let's do things differently next time". 

[Almostfaceman]

True enough, and very good point.  But I would add that forums as low-cost market research are limited to the people who actually care enough to come to the forum and offer feedback.  Two out of three DAI players in my household have not bothered with feedback.  Two out of three have simply moved on to something else with failed interest in Dragon Age.

 

I hope the general average is better.

 

True, but also generally true of all market research. People just don't like to fill out internet surveys or answer phone questionnaires. It's factored in that only a certain percentage of customers bother to tell a company what they want. 

[Rappeldrache]

Bioware could try to make a Origin-poll. Asking the people about their age and their gender. Giving a little Mini-DLC for DAI or MA:A as reward for everybody who participate.

 

 

My subjective impression is that most of the game developer see only the male, young player. A few years ago I read in a Games-magazin what a game-developer said (was NOT Bioware): "Female palyers are not interesting for us!" I was a bit shocked.

I'm not sure, but (still) my sujective impression is: There are A LOT female, a lot "older" and gay players who buy Bioware games. MORE than other RPG games. And with every game there are more of them. I made my impression in the Modding Forum, in Nexus (Modding Community) and with all the FanArt in the Web. Also I look around a bit what themes / clips you find in YouTube. If you take all this "togehter" the customers of Bioware made a different impression than the people who write here in the forum or in a nother forum. They don't have mutch in common. Seem to me like "two customers groups". Just my impression.

 

My subjective impression: Especially young, male players write (A LOT) in forums. Females write in forums, too - but more in special forum-areas (less in general forum), older player don't write in forums and gay people ... sorry, don't know (but I hug gay players a lot *HUG* ). This is just a general simplification, of course it don't fit for EVERY gamer!! Look at me.

 

I know from "StarWarsTheOldRepublik" Bioware Forum (and some other games): I see for example my guild in SWTor (medium-sized). We have A LOT older players & a lot females (even A LOT older females). With older I mean: Older than 50 years. None of them write in the Official Forum, NEVER EVER.

They buy every stupid DLC when it comes, their accounts are always activated (even if they are not playing) and some of them pay about 100 €uro per month MORE for ingame items. 2 or 3 of my guild - buddys pay sometimes 300 €uro per month for stupid chest (yes, they are so crazy, you are right). If Bioware would do something what the would not like, they would go. They will not comment in a forum, they will just go to a nother game. Done.

I know a PvP guild on my server, too. They are really young (male and young   ) . Their accounts are only 5 months of the year activated (they are playing a lot other games, too) and they never buy something else. Some DLC's ... sometimes. But they write A LOT in the forum how SWToR have to be and whats going wrong and so on.  I play now MMORP's till Ultima Online, more than 20 years and it was always like this: The best customers (in MMO's) are the "older & female" ones. They pay a lot of money and they don't leave so fast. Thats all very generalized of course!

 

 

Just a theory (lets take the lost limb again ):

 

- My subjective impression (yes, I write it all the time): A lot male, young player would LOVE it to have a canon / crossbow / sword instead an forearm. Thats cooolllll. Especially a few younger, male players become a bit un-polite if you have a nother opinion, they explode of self-assurance: They like it to mock. And so they cast out / subdue other opinions (especially from people who are not often in a forum). There a few who try to arguee of course. 

 

- A lot of females don't like it what hapen to their character, a few do of course. I see how mutch time and "work" a lot of female players invest to create their character(s). A few of them even call their warden (from DA:O) "princess", a few called even Hawk a "princess". And I read some female players writing about their "Trevalyan Princess". Thats not mine to be honest, but I can't imagine a one-armed-crippled "Princess" would be welcomed. I think the females have often (not always of course) a nother approch to their characters than males. Yes, your true, it's a bit their Barbie-doll (most of them would not admit of course). I really can't imagine a "girl" who would be happy if you rip out their Barbie-dolls arm.    (I am female, too, by the way).

 

- A "older gamer" (Mathias) here in the forum wrote something "great". I quote him (I think most of the older players think like him)

 

I for one do play RPGs to escape from reality, because reality is harsh. Not always, but working 40-50 hours a week while constantly hearing bad news about the world buzzing about puts stress on me mentality sometimes. That's why we have our hobbies to relax and feel mentally refreshed. Playing video games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age helps me take my imagination to another world and live a separate life almost. I love it. It's also why I have such vitriol hatred for ME3's ending. I hate it for how nonsensical it is, and I hate it for how cruel it is.

 

 

 

So, if you see this three groups of customers now and see my statement of them .... how many of them are "really happy and satisfy" after the ending of Trespasser? (And I'm still talking about the ending, not the whole DLC!) : Only the "young, male adults", who write a lot in forums. Most of the two other groups are dissapointed.

And even THAN you still have (after my personal subjective opinion) a lot of people who were really pissed about the ending and wrote it in the forum. After my personal opinion and impression: 60 % happy and 40 not happy with the end of Trespasser here in the forum just after release.

 

 

I hope you understand, my english is horrible. Sorry, and I'm a bit in hurry, too. Have to clean my little boys room ...   hope I don't rip out an forearm from their Power Rangers figure. They would kill me and cry the weekend (was a joke!).

[ZombiePopper]

You're pulling numbers out of thin air unless you have a sample poll to back it up. Trespasser ending has been more positive with very small vocal outcry for it. It is the opposite of ME3 and DAis endings which where heavily criticized on this site and off this site because it was rushed and was waaaay too happy with no options of failure or price (DAI of course, ME3 fallout was far bigger and more justified and not because it was not a happy ending) I've seen less criticism towards Traspassers ending then I did to DAI's base game ending and even DA2s on and off this site.

Agree.
(Outta likes dammit!)
Even those that take issue with Trespasser, can still play/enjoy it.
Whereas with ME3,
People were saying they'll never buy another BW product again, posting petitions, raging on forums, etc. (Not that some of the backlash wasn't deserved.)
A real night-and-day difference to be sure. At least from what I've seen....
And of course my own opinion , I like trespasser but still not a big fan of the ME3 endings.

[Ieldra]

As I said, Rappeldrache, I won't argue numbers in this case. It's not like after ME3, when there was a poll with 80000 people and 97% disliked the ending.

We will also not see the kind of thing you're proposing just to appease the minor dissatisfactions of a minority (yes, however unpleasant, in a bigger context they are minor - again, unlike after ME3), and I consider it useless to go on about it.

What I am hoping is that some writer picks this up and starts thinking about how things could be made different, mainly because the aspects we find dissatisfying aren't important for the story, they're just a convenience, and there's no reason why they couldn't be different.

[Eterna]

Sometimes it feels like people don't want drama in their story based games. 

 

You could also rename this thread "I'm sad I lost my arm" at this point. 

[Rappeldrache]

As I said, Rappeldrache, I won't argue numbers in this case. It's not like after ME3, when there was a poll with 80000 people and 97% disliked the ending.

We will also not see the kind of thing you're proposing just to appease the minor dissatisfactions of a minority (yes, however unpleasant, in a bigger context they are minor - again, unlike after ME3), and I consider it useless to go on about it.

What I am hoping is that some writer picks this up and starts thinking about how things could be made different, mainly because the aspects we find dissatisfying aren't important for the story, they're just a convenience, and there's no reason why they couldn't be different.

 

Yes, you are right. I need for myself "numbers" (to explain), and so in this case it's hart for me, cause we don't have any    .... just "impressions".  I just wanted to explain with this "theoretical numbers" that there have been a lot of people who weren't happy.

 

I think we can't compare the situation here with ME3. The ME3 ending was ... a heavy blow. I haven't seen something like this before. And Bioware din't react well, not at all. But also we can't say: "It was not like the ME- reaction, so it's not notable." Of course it was not - a lot of people loved Trespasser. But there have been a lot negatice reactions (for the ending of Trespasser, not Trespasser itself), too. Even here in the Official Bioware forum, where a lot of "Hardcore Fans" a running around. And it was not like: EVERYBODY love Trespasser and the ending. No, thats NOT true.

 

 

Sometimes it feels like people don't want drama in their story based games. 

 

You could also rename this thread "I'm sad I lost my arm" at this point. 

 

I think @leldra have a few points more, than just the lost limb. The lost forearm is just my personal drama   (ok, losing the limb dit NOT made me sad. That I can't make something to let it regrown AFTER was it. Losing the limb was a great, dramatic end, I liked it. The lack of possibilitys AFTER made / makes me crazy.).

By the way: There have been a few Threads with headings like this. And a lot of people wrote there how sad they are - but they dit not write so mutch and often like the "Fans". We all are "paying customers - fans" and Bioware should respect us all and our needs. 

[leaguer of one]

Yes, you are right. I need for myself "numbers" (to explain), and so in this case it's hart for me, cause we don't have any    .... just "impressions".  I just wanted to explain with this "theoretical numbers" that there have been a lot of people who weren't happy.

 

I think we can't compare the situation here with ME3. The ME3 ending was ... a heavy blow. I haven't seen something like this before. And Bioware din't react well, not at all. But also we can't say: "It was not like the ME- reaction, so it's not notable." Of course it was not - a lot of people loved Trespasser. But there have been a lot negatice reactions (for the ending of Trespasser, not Trespasser itself), too. Even here in the Official Bioware forum, where a lot of "Hardcore Fans" a running around. And it was not like: EVERYBODY love Trespasser and the ending. No, thats NOT true.

 

 

 

 

The reaction to it on the forum shows how much it's liked or hated. So even if some don't like the ending of trespasser...It's very clear it a very few who don't like it.

[Maniccc]

All the complaining and malaise about the DLC, ME3, and so on, and you'll all buy the next one....  I personally am tired of Bioware games, they are all very much the same stories and characters, and they are becoming more and more politically concerned, which annoys me.

 

I popped in to read a couple quick spoilers about the DLC and such, and heard exactly what I expected to hear.  Lose the hand, expected.  Solas is the new bad, expected, and so on.  Between the mediocre combat systems and the somewhat PC super repetitive stories and characters, Bioware just has nothing special going on.  They get to develop AAA games that are mediocre at best, very ho-hum in every way.

[Ieldra]

Sometimes it feels like people don't want drama in their story based games. 
 
You could also rename this thread "I'm sad I lost my arm" at this point.

I'm actually much more disappointed about losing the Mark, rather than the arm as such. I would've given the other arm in order to keep the Mark.

As for drama, personal loss is often a necessary story element, but a story that ends with it can make you feel like you lost. Consider the Inquisitor's personal fate: you lost your arm, you lost your cool magical ability, you lost your organization, either to a different authority or to disbanding. If you didn't romance anyone (my Inquisitors often don't) you didn't gain anything but fame, and in my case, it was a fame based on unwanted attributitions.

So really, in a personal sense, my main Inquisitor didn't gain anything that mattered to her, while she lost a lot that mattered to her.

 

Regarding the sanitized world, this article says it best.

[TraiHarder]

Because Bioware, not you, created every tiny little thing about your character. Every pixel, every spoken word, the curve of the nose, the glint in the eye, every tree and puddle. Every choice you think you made was pre-programmed by a team of men and women in a sweaty office in Canada. They also created Thedas, and everything in it. They made a make-believe world, not you. Then they, not you, wrote a story that takes place in their world. You pay for the right of entering that world. And you choose a name. And you occasionally make one of several pre-programmed choices. That's it.

 

But the things you character's said and done, the choices s/he made, have been said and made by millions of other people around the globe. You've cannot and have not done anything original in the game. You are a consumer of this story, not a writer. You are audience not artist.

 

But it's a great story, with great characters, in a beautiful world. So sit back and enjoy the ride.

 

Ok first take the stick out of your butt, feel better?

 

Second you obviously don't get the point of a game like this. We are suppose to be the writer. We are the artist lmao Broward is just "suppose" to give us the tools to write our own story. That kinda why they constantly say OH WERE ARE GIVING U THE ABALITY TO MAKE CHOICES THAT MATTER. Yet they never really do in the end. So please before you put that stick up your butt again remember. We are suppose to be the story tellers an Broward just gives us the means to tell the story.

 

Also some people actually do make their own pixels and puddles and curves its called a Mod.

[Realmzmaster]

The gamer is not the storyteller. The gamer working through his/her avatar (the protagonist)  gets to help shape the story with his/her choices. The gamer has no control over how a response will be perceived by the NPC until that response is chosen (only the writers of the story know that). The story unfolds around the protagonist. The gamer gets to role play a character in the world and story created by the writers.

 

All cRPGs work a great deal like their p n p counterparts. The writers are the DMs of Dragon Age. Like DMs the writers decides what goes into the story, what events will happen and what is allowable and not allowable.

 

If the gamer was truly the storyteller he/she would know precisely how the NPCs will react to what the protagonist will say and have full control over the narrative and events that will or will not happen.

 

For example, In DAO there is no option for the warden to leave and join the wardens in Orlais. If the gamer was the storyteller that would be an option in the mind of some. If the gamer was the storyteller, the gamer could have Hawke tell his mother we are not going to Kirkwall. If the gamer was the storyteller the Herald could tell Cassandra he is taking the mark and heading home. None of these situations are possible because the gamer through his/her character is a player in the story.

 

Make no mistake when playing a cRPG or any rpg you are playing the writer's (DM's) story. The gamer gets to help shape the story through choices for that iteration of his/her character. The choices you select are still written by the writers (DM).

 

The big difference is that a p n p DM has the ability to improvise. The writers of a cRPG do not have that luxury. Also there is a finite number of choices and story elements that can be accommodated to stay within the resource budget.

[BSpud]

We are suppose to be the writer. We are the artist lmao Broward is just "suppose" to give us the tools to write our own story

 

Haha, no.

[Ieldra]

Make no mistake when playing a cRPG or any rpg you are playing the writer's (DM's) story. The gamer gets to help shape the story through choices for that iteration of his/her character. The choices you select are still written by the writers (DM).

 

The big difference is that a p n p DM has the ability to improvise. The writers of a cRPG do not have that luxury. Also there is a finite number of choices and story elements that can be accommodated to stay within the resource budget.

I like the term "cooperative storytelling". In a good rpg, the GM makes the plot, but also lets the plot be changed by player's decision should that be appropriate. Video games can't easily to do this, but I think it's a goal to work towards.

 

However, the problem I've brought up here is legitimately the domain of the GM. The GM decides how the world reacts to my decisions, and about the conditions that shape my decisions. The world tells me, for instance, that I die if I refuse to let my arm with the Mark be cut off. What I resent is exactly this condition, which amounts to forcibly depowering the protagonist at the end of the story. I can't legitimately *demand* a change since that is not my domain as a player (as I could legitimately demand to be given specific characterization options, since shaping my character IS my domain) but I can express my dislike to the GM (Bioware) and hope they take it into account.

[Wren]

Anyone who has brushed up on Norse Myhtology knows that the Wolf God always takes the hero's hand at the end.  Fenrir= Fen'Harel  Inquisitor= Tyr

[Dai Grepher]

I think the only thing the Inquisitor truly lost was his left arm. When you think about it, he was supposed to have been blown up at the conclave. He was supposed to have died from the mark, which was never truly his. If anything, he gained a second chance at life, a superb castle, much knowledge and experience, and possibly a group of friends and a loved one.

 

That said, I do think there should have been an option to keep the mark, like by going the extra length to find everything and learn the elven magic necessary to stabilize it. I also think there should have been a way to keep the Inquisition as an independent organization and commit it to the goals you chose. I think the council should have had various options that weren't there.

 

I think there should have been a lot of choices in Trespasser that weren't, but I don't think the Inquisitor "lost", exactly. He's still either the leader of an organization that has the Divine's support, or he's the leader of a small band of professionals that can now work behind the scenes in various ways and in multiple regions of Thedas.

 

One other thought occurred to me. It's also possible that the mark isn't actually gone permanently. It's possible that it's simply "Fade Cloaked", so to speak. It and the Inquisitor's left forearm may still exist, but in a state of suspension outside the real world and somewhere inside the Fade or the Crossroads. So maybe the next game will involve getting the Inquisitor's arm back.

[Dasha Dreyson]

When I first started playing DAI, I expected the Inquisitor to die at the end (or at the closing of the breech, you know, if it had been at the end of the game). I find it funny that the arm could show up in a Doctor Who fashion later on and rip apart the scars in the land. There were a ton of weak points in the veil before DAI.

 

Regarding not having the arm, not a big deal to me. My uncle has been missing an arm since before I was alive. He had a claw, but didn't really use it because it got in the way more often than not. It was never an issue. Suffice it to say, when I first heard the campfire story about the man with the claw, it was lost on me. I really couldn't figure out what the point of the story was.

[Heimdall]

Regarding the sanitized world, this article says it best.

That is a good article.
 

I think the author overestimates the misogyny present in the world of Origins, but the point is well made.

[Dai Grepher]

That is a good article.
 

I think the author overestimates the misogyny present in the world of Origins, but the point is well made.

 

That was a terrible article. Mostly because of words and the author's pitiful grasp of them, but also because it's uninformed.
 

[Heimdall]

That was a terrible article. Mostly because of words and the author's pitiful grasp of them, but also because it's uninformed.
 

Some of its uninformed, but it makes a good point about the shift in Inquisition's tone compared to the rest of the franchise..