359 réponses à ce sujet

[inquartata02]

That is a very accurate description of every video game protagonist that ever existed, not just of the Inquisitor.

 

And every story character in every narrative in any form, really. Since that's how storytelling tends to work.

[BSpud]

In short, all my posts are the same, sometimes it is not clear but it is all about saying how wonderful DAO is and how awful DAI is. Just saying so that you don't waste time not knowing where I'm going. I should probably put it on my signature.

 

How many BSN accounts is this for you now?

[Ieldra]

If "killing an immortal darkspawn magister, killing an Avvar deity, saving the dwarven civilization from destruction by earthquakes, then going on adventures with Sera and getting a grappling hook crossbow arm" counts as losing, what would winning even look like?
 
If the inquisitor spent enough time saving the world, eventually they'd keel over from old age. That wouldn't suddenly invalidate their previous accomplishments. Nor would losing an arm, losing the inquisition, or witnessing the rise of a new villain.
 
The inquisitor did win. Stuff that happens after doesn't take that away.

I admit the phrasing was intentionally provoking, but the point still stands that the hero loses...something personal and everything they gained for themselves. A net gain for Thedas, a net loss for the hero.

[Ieldra]

Putting aside that the Inquisitor's ending is pretty much irrelevant since they're a wholly contrived character whose success was entirely based on 'the narrative says so'...
 
This kind of sentiment is indecent.

I didn't expect anything else from you. I feel vindicated.

[Ieldra]

I suppose with all of the player ego stroking this game does, people would be put off by the one small time you're legitimately outplayed.

I would prefer less ego-stroking during the game. It's almost sickening how everyone looks up to you. Also, being legitimately outplayed is one reason why I still say Trespasser has a good ending in spite of my personal dislike. However, it bothers me that the writers contrived these circumstances - and always tend to contrive *something* that makes the hero lose what they gained, and often more.

[Ieldra]

Opinion: The loss of an arm seems fairly minor, by comparison. The Inquisitor seems to have lost very little and gained quite a bit.

The loss of a hand may be considered minor for a mage (though never for a warrior or rogue), the loss of the Mark is not.

[BabyPuncher]

It doesn't cross your mind how ridiculous it is to put yourself in this situation? How you're really shooting yourself in the foot?

 

Please BioWare, give me a happy ending, because I need to believe in the goodness of the world, that virtue will triumph, blah blah blah...'

 

Do you see what this does? We have the advocate of triumph, reduced to cringing, bargaining, begging, pleading, whimpering, to please, please have mercy and give me what I need. And then we have advocate of frustration and failure like that fat imbecile George Martin: Smug, self-righteous, uncompromising, and confident. One has all the power. One has absolutely none. That isn't indecent to you?

 

If BioWare or anyone else failed to write a 'happy ending' where one was appropriate, it's because of one reason: Incompetence. Because they lacked the necessary qualities to understand and implement narrative fundamentals. Because they failed as writers. End of story.

 

You heavily dislike what BioWare does, and yet you make exactly the same mistake.

[Rappeldrache]

DAI and Trespasser, both GREAT games, wonderful mainstory, great side stories (even the little side quest had amazing stories). And all this little stories and letters and notes all around! I loved 90 % from DAI. Same with ME1-3 and also DA:O and DA2 - Bioware have incredible writers.

They can catch you, make you happy, make you sad, they really touch you. What I suffer with Dorian (and: I'm female and played a female, so I dit not romance him), but when he talked about his problems in Tewinter .... I was NOT crying ... but ... was hart. Only really GREAT writers can reach something like this. So I can't agree: I think Bioware have the BEST writers at the moment (in game develoment).

 

Only one domain, they often / always fail: The ending.     I mean: Please Bioware, the whole Mass Effect Trilogy was saved by Modder ...  (for most of the gamers). This is really shamefull.

[BabyPuncher]

Inquisition is, without question, the worst writing I have ever encountered from BioWare, and on a few points some of the worst writing I've seen in fiction, period.

[Al Foley]

DAI and Trespasser, both GREAT games, wonderful mainstory, great side stories (even the little side quest had amazing stories). And all this little stories and letters and notes all around! I loved 90 % from DAI. Same with ME1-3 and also DA:O and DA2 - Bioware have incredible writers.

They can catch you, make you happy, make you sad, they really touch you. What I suffer with Dorian (and: I'm female and played a female, so I dit not romance him), but when he talked about his problems in Tewinter .... I was NOT crying ... but ... was hart. Only really GREAT writers can reach something like this. So I can't agree: I think Bioware have the BEST writers at the moment (in game develoment).

 

Only one domain, they often / always fail: The ending.     I mean: Please Bioware, the whole Mass Effect Trilogy was saved by Modder ...  (for most of the gamers). This is really shamefull.

As someone who dabbles in writing and wants to do more then dabble as a career...endings are the hardest thing you can do for writing.  Ever.  

[Ieldra]

It doesn't cross your mind how ridiculous it is to put yourself in this situation? How you're really shooting yourself in the foot?
 
Please BioWare, give me a happy ending, because I need to believe in the goodness of the world, that virtue will triumph, blah blah blah...'

What?

Well, it has now been thoroughly established that you are not a mind-reader. My reasons for disliking the outcome of Trespasser as the Inquisitor personally is concerned - everything else is quite satisfactory, as I said - are rather different. Basically, I dislike the idea - sometimes it almost appears a dogma - that the hero *must* lose something personal as the world gains from their actions. I'm seeing this pattern again....and again and again, and every time I want to see something different JUST ONCE, and every time I end up disappointed, to the point where I get more annoyed at every story that doesn't break this pattern.

Usually I don't even post about this, because quite often what we lose isn't all that important to me in the end, and sometimes what you have binds you and losing it gains you freedom, so in spite of my dislike of the pattern, sometimes it works out nicely and sometimes I don't care that much. This time was different, however, because all that I really wanted from the ending was to keep the Mark, and it was exactly that which was taken away.

I'm not against hard choices. I would like, however, as one option, to keep of what I had gained in the story something I value greatly. In this case, there were two of those things: the Inquisition's independence and the Mark. I don't care about glory and the regard of kings.

[Rappeldrache]

As someone who dabbles in writing and wants to do more then dabble as a career...endings are the hardest thing you can do for writing.  Ever.  

 

Not, if they would give us just the choice. Little "Wheel of choice - personal destiny of your Hero" at the end, or after the ending. About the personal destiny of the Hero (only) of course.

 

(Good luck! )

[Al Foley]

Inquisition is, without question, the worst writing I have ever encountered from BioWare, and on a few points some of the worst writing I've seen in fiction, period.

Pretty much my reaction. 

[Al Foley]

Not, if they would give us just the choice. Little "Wheel of choice - personal destiny of your Hero" at the end, or after the ending. About the personal destiny of the Hero (only) of course.

 

(Good luck! )

I thought Tresspasser did that pretty well. 

[Smudjygirl]

The hero always has to lose against the villain, because otherwise it is not believable. Kind of made me think Cory wasn't the true bad guy at any time, because we never lost to him (other than Haven, which felt more like an introduction)

 

It's not like they lose everything. They still have the infrastructure of the Inquisition, their friends, potential political allies and so on. The mark is something Solas needs, and we knew right from the get go it was killing them. Right from the start i knew they would need to lose it somehow. Which i personally thought would result in their death.

 

The fact that the Inquisitor is now at a lower point than they were before tells me their story is not yet finished (before people jump on me, that was not a reference to them coming back as PC, even if that is a personal hope of mine).  It has come full circle, which is classic story telling.

[Arvaarad]

I admit the phrasing was intentionally provoking, but the point still stands that the hero loses...something personal and everything they gained for themselves. A net gain for Thedas, a net loss for the hero.

They didn't lose everything they gained. They still have the friendships. They've also formed professional relationships with nobles across Thedas - that doesn't go away, even if they're no longer formally allied. People would kill to have that kind of network. They have the ear of the Divine, something which they didn't even have while they were fighting Corypheus.

Ultimately, though, deciding whether the inquisitor feels better off is subjective. If they'd kept the Anchor, there'd be the constant doubt that they're only successful because of an ancient elven artifact. If no new antagonist had risen, the Inquisition would become exactly what Ferelden feared, a large, eventually corrupt organization with no purpose other than to preserve its own power. If they hadn't gotten a grappling hook crossbow arm, they'd feel a deep, unexplainable emptiness about what could have been.

Any ending could be considered a net loss OR a net gain, depending on what the hero values.

[BabyPuncher]

The hero always has to lose against the villain, because otherwise it is not believable.

 

Incorrect.

 

The protagonist only needs to struggle against the villain if the true conflict of the story is between the protagonist and antagonist.

 

Consider the Honest Hearts DLC for New Vegas. An absolute masterful conflict and resolution, yet the player character completely bulldozes through their enemies for the entire story. Because the real conflict was never about the enemies.

 

In any case, even if that wasn't true, the problem has nothing to do with being 'believable.' Plenty of stories have antagonists that are considerably weaker than the protagonists. It's entirely 'believable' that the protagonist could defeat them, that's not the problem at all.
 

[ArianaGBSA]

How many BSN accounts is this for you now?

Not enough.

[Smudjygirl]

Incorrect.

 

The protagonist only needs to struggle against the villain if the true conflict of the story is between the protagonist and antagonist.

 

Consider the Honest Hearts DLC for New Vegas. An absolute masterful conflict and resolution, yet the player character completely bulldozes through their enemies for the entire story. Because the real conflict was never about the enemies.
 

 

It's not incorrect, but then again there are no particular rules of writing.  (My use of "always" was too strong, i admit). Loss on that scale, though, can help lead the way to lots of character development. They need to come to terms with what has happened and find away to regain their strength to deal with it.

 

To use and argument i find immensely weak and silly, but sort of shows the logic. "Dragon age is about Thedas". In this instance, the Inquisitor was far too OP to be a major or minor character. They needed to do SOMETHING about the mark, and it needed to leave a lasting impression. As such, we lost it in a way that has many people talking and has given many mixed reactions. Good writing, i say.

[Al Foley]

I do not think to be belivable the protag most lose but must suffer losses. 

[Smudjygirl]

I do not think to be belivable the protag most lose but must suffer losses. 

 

Exactly. Because otherwise it comes across as trite and unrealistic. Stuff goes wrong, that what makes them empathetic

[BabyPuncher]

It is entirely incorrect. And if you want to write well, there are 'particular rules' of writing. Just likes there's particular rules to doing anything.

[TevinterSupremacist]

I do not think to be belivable the protag most lose but must suffer losses. 

Believability/realism in games ir nauseatingly overrated. And that's especially true for fantasy games.

[Al Foley]

Believability/realism in games ir nauseatingly overrated. And that's especially true for fantasy games.

Yet it is almost a neccessary element of story telling.  Because, its something we all go through, have you gone through your life only making nothing but gains?  The Inquisitor took losses even before Tresspassers. 

[MissMayhem96]

Statement: All the player characters have loss and defeat as part of their character arc. If they didn't, they'd be quite boring. A story of constant victory at no cost is hardly a story worth experiencing, is it?

 

Analysis: Each protagonist the Masters make has both loss and defeat, as well as gains and victories. Let's go through them and see if the gains outweigh the loss, starting with KOTOR's Revan, who met my ancestral prototype.

 

Revan:

Loses: Previous life's memories as well as new life's innocence after the revelation of their former identity.

Defeats: Taris, Dantooine

Gains: Power or redemption.

Victory: Star Forge is destroyed or gained, either saving or condemning the galaxy.

 

The Warden:

Loses: Previous life before the Wardens, possibly their new life as well.

Defeats: Ostagar, Lothering

Gains: Fame and (possibly)fortune combined with a life of duty.

Victory: Archdemon is defeated, Fifth Blight is ended, Ferelden is saved.

 

Hawke:

Loses: Most or all of his/her family, then their new life in Kirkwall

Defeats: Lothering, the loss of their siblings and mother

Gains: Riches, fame, possibly power

Victory: Mage anarchy/freedom or templar tyranny/order.

 

Shepard:

Loses: His/Her life(control/synthesis) or health(Destroy).

Defeats: Kaidan/Ashley, Horizon, Earth Invasion, Thessia

Gains: If alive, enough royalties from the vids never to need to work again. Maybe a promotion.

Victory: Reapers constant wiping out of all life in the galaxy is ended

 

Inquisitor:

Loses: An arm, possibly the majority of the Inquisitions infiltrated powerbase.

Defeats: Haven

Gains: Fortune, fame and power. A LOT of it.

Victory: Corypheus defeated, the Breach destroyed, Thedas saved.

 

Opinion: The loss of an arm seems fairly minor, by comparison. The Inquisitor seems to have lost very little and gained quite a bit.

 

This makes Shepard look like a kicked puppy.

 

Maybe a promotion.