359 réponses à ce sujet

[ZombiePopper]

Good post but you missed the point. My point is exactly about "people being reasonable", people are not, I mean, not all. Most people have something vain or stupid they value more than life, I'd say everyone do. A dick or the breasts, a particular skill, the show of an idol, or even a lucky charm. Human beings are that stupid. "If I lose my voice I lose my reason to live" or "if I lose my WOW account I will kill myself", real life statements. And yes, in most cases people are just saying it like a joke right? Well, one ex girlfriend of mine tried to kill herself because I refused to go to the gym, SERIOUSLY.

Ok,
Now this post I can completely agree with.
We, as humans all value different things, differently.
What's insignificant to me, is highly prized by others.
And of course,
We all have a different perception of what we deem as "beauty". (I think Karen Gillan is absolutely stunning-*woof. others might not...)
While some may say I'm stupid because I'd prevent an armed criminal from stealing my 69 dart swinger, they have no idea WHY I value it so highly (family history, work spent with deceased family member, etc.)
So I completely agree with your point here.

[Toasted Llama]

I certainly didn't mean to imply that losing a limb is easy or a good thing, of course, it is not.
But out of curiousity,
Do you feel you are completely incapable of learning to draw with your other hand?
(It's not a snarky comment, my fav med is charcoal so I understand your point. I'm actually curious. Since there are several artists that have done so. For me, I'd like to at least TRY to re-learn it than to be dead and lose everything, literally.)

Oh don't worry, I didn't see your post as saying "losing a limb is easy or good", I actually thought it was a nice counter argument to all the depressing "LOSING A LIMB IS TERRIBLE!" posts.

 

Anyway, I probably wouldn't physically be incapable of relearning with my other hand, the reasons why I'd rather be dead are personal;

1. if I can land a job in the industry I'm trying to get into and then lose my right hand, I'd be unemployed untill I re-learn all the skills (which can take years if not decades) or learn an entirely new profession (which would not only take years, it would also bring me much less joy)

2. I'm a perfectionist and most likely suffer from some form of depression. The process of relearning my skills would most likely worsen my depression and lead to suicide. So I'd be dead regardless.

 

Which is why I said that the impact of losing a limb varies from person to person

[ZombiePopper]

Oh don't worry, I didn't see your post as saying "losing a limb is easy or good", I actually thought it was a nice counter argument to all the depressing "LOSING A LIMB IS TERRIBLE!" posts.

Anyway, I probably wouldn't physically be incapable of relearning with my other hand, the reasons why I'd rather be dead are personal;
1. if I can land a job in the industry I'm trying to get into and then lose my right hand, I'd be unemployed untill I re-learn all the skills (which can take years if not decades) or learn an entirely new profession (which would not only take years, it would also bring me much less joy)
2. I'm a perfectionist and most likely suffer from some form of depression. The process of relearning my skills would most likely worsen my depression and lead to suicide. So I'd be dead regardless.

Which is why I said that the impact of losing a limb varies from person to person

Excellent points.
And impressive awareness of your own abilities/limitations.

[prosthetic soul]

Mr. Weekes has explained on Twitter that Solas took the mark, but the arm couldn't be saved because it was in too bad a shape.

 

Are you freaking kidding me?  So, basically, Solas had the power to take the mark away entirely but we still had to lose an arm because....reasons? I'm okay with him losing the arm because the Mark was permanent but this retcon makes absolutely no damn sense considering Corypheus said the mark was permanent. 

 

Spoiler

Why am I expecting the protagonist in ME Andromeda to lose a leg by the end of the game?  Either that or get railroaded into dying 3 times over all again.

[prosthetic soul]

Nah I like tragic endings.

 

Fantasy games are full of the save the world trope in which the hero comes out with a love interest, all his friends and superpowers at the end of the game.

 

Leave me my dragon age, in all of it's baby stealing, war creating, arm destroying, glory. 

 

Plus losing an arm? Pls. My dad doesn't have an arm and he can still kick my ass. 

I would like to know which games you are bloody talking about because the past 10 years of gaming have been FILLED TO THE BRIM with endings that are the exact opposite of what you just described.  I literally cannot remember the last game I played that had a genuine happy ending (apart from Trespasser). 

[AresKeith]

 

Are you freaking kidding me?  So, basically, Solas had the power to take the mark away entirely but we still had to lose an arm because....reasons? I'm okay with him losing the arm because the Mark was permanent but this retcon makes absolutely no damn sense considering Corypheus said the mark was permanent. 

 

Spoiler

Why am I expecting the protagonist in ME Andromeda to lose a leg by the end of the game?  Either that or get railroaded into dying 3 times over all again.

 

Right because Corypheus obviously knows everything about Elven magic 

[prosthetic soul]

Right because Corypheus obviously knows everything about Elven magic 

My point stands regardless.  Losing a limb seemed kind of unnecessary when Solas has the power to just take the Mark away.   Also for the record, I laugh my ass off at anyone thinking just because you lose a hand suddenly means you can't go adventuring anymore.  That line kind of pissed me off.

 

There's a guy in real life who practices Kendo and he has NO LEGS.  That's right.  He's literally just a torso and swings bamboo swords around all day.  And Kendo is difficult as **** to learn in my opinion.  There was a documentary on the guy somewhere on YouTube or TV many years ago. 

[Ryzaki]

I assume Solas did just take the mark away but at that point the arm was dead and the Inquisitor had to cut it off because it was useless.

[BabyPuncher]

Counterquestion: why shouldn't they? It is a preference, one they have no more reason to cater to than anyone else's, yes, but also no *less* reason. Yet we always see a similar pattern.

 

Because that's a stupid way to write a story. Protagonists can't be allowed to avoid struggle and suffering because the player 'chooses' not to. (Which, by the way, is yet another reason on the pile for the crucial separation between the player and protagonist.) What kind of stories would BioWare have if they allowed the player to have their protagonist avoid anything unpleasant?

 

You do understand the absolute necessity of struggle (and therefore nearly always suffering) in stories, right?

 

Who says they don't have more reason? What if I say it makes a better story because it's more 'realistic'? And if you think otherwise, well, you're just clinging to a childish escapist fantasy. What say you to that?

[ArianaGBSA]

Ok,
Now this post I can completely agree with.
We, as humans all value different things, differently.
What's insignificant to me, is highly prized by others.
And of course,
We all have a different perception of what we deem as "beauty". (I think Karen Gillan is absolutely stunning-*woof. others might not...)
While some may say I'm stupid because I'd prevent an armed criminal from stealing my 69 dart swinger, they have no idea WHY I value it so highly (family history, work spent with deceased family member, etc.)
So I completely agree with your point here.

100% understood what I said.
I'm in a moment of my life where ideals are going away in favor of opening room for reals to stay. And since we are talking about the Inquisitor who is possibly loves his/her hands since (s)he is someone into combat and stuff, it is reasonable to think this kind of person could choose death over amputation. A samurai like warrior could think he is useless and stuff like that. Thing is that of course it is not reasonable but the meaning of life is a fragile thing and ultimately subjective, it is THE subjectivity itself. So I dislike Bioware picturing an Inquisitor who just said I'm ok, I'm in the game, I'm going for Solas. Why not a templar Inquisitor becoming a lyrium adiccted beggar and dying in the streets? Or an obsessed mage that sacrificed a loved one with a blood magic to recover completely? That's something good! And a dream, it would be difficult to handle... but well, at least I wanted people to understand that death should be an option and some of my characters would choose it.

[prosthetic soul]

*reads topic title*

 

I've been barking up that tree since the end of ME 3. 

[ZombiePopper]

100% understood what I said.
I'm in a moment of my life where ideals are going away in favor of opening room for reals to stay. And since we are talking about the Inquisitor who is possibly loves his/her hands since (s)he is someone into combat and stuff, it is reasonable to think this kind of person could choose death over amputation. A samurai like warrior could think he is useless and stuff like that. Thing is that of course it is not reasonable but the meaning of life is a fragile thing and ultimately subjective, it is THE subjectivity itself. So I dislike Bioware picturing an Inquisitor who just said I'm ok, I'm in the game, I'm going for Solas. Why not a templar Inquisitor becoming a lyrium adiccted beggar and dying in the streets? Or an obsessed mage that sacrificed a loved one with a blood magic to recover completely? That's something good! And a dream, it would be difficult to handle... but well, at least I wanted people to understand that death should be an option and some of my characters would choose it.

Lol I hope you understood what you said!
I was just applying your points to me personally and explaining the thoughts that ran thru my head when I read your post.
*thinking out loud. I do that.
Anyway,
I've said the same thing, after the first time I played Trespasser. That I want the option for my Inqy to die.
Mind you, not specifically because of the loss of his hand. But because it just should be an option. It could be explained away however you like though.

[Iakus]

Absolutely. I liked everything else about it except the personal loss for the Inquisitor - actually as opposed to ME3, where I didn't mind Shepard's death all that much except that the way it came about felt like a betrayal.

Depending on how you play, though, the arm may well be the only important thing the Inquisitor loses.

 

I mean, by leading the Inquisition, the Inquisitor games fame, power, and wealth.  All of these are reduced by the end, but certainly are not gone completely.  WHether the Inquisition operates under the umbrella of the Chantry or is wholly disbanded, the Inquisitor still commands some resources in looking for ways to stop Solas.

 

Heck it's possible to play an INquisitor who never really wanted all this responsibility to begin with.  And agreed with Mother Giselle about how the great things about the original Inquisition was it laid down its banners when the time was right.

 

In addition, I'd say that assuming the Inquisitor's romance didn't end in tragedy, that's a gain for the Inquisitor as well.  After all, he/she is unlikely to have ever met the LI without being affiliated with the Inquisition to begin with.  So if you like the idea of marrying Cullen and getting a mabari, or meeting Josephine's family, or traveling Thedas with Cassandra, it may be as Tali put it "totally worth it"

 

THe Inquisitor spent years as a larger than life figure.  A messiah, come to save everyone from the demons falling out of the sky.   Someone who ruled no nation but had the power to bend them to his/her will.  The Inquisitor has walked the Fade, commanded armies, conversed with kings, empresses, the very highest ranking officials of church and state. Discovered truths lost for thousands of years.  Someone who has battled dragons, demons, and even gods.   At some point, the concept of laying it all down and going back to being a "mere mortal" must have an appeal.  

 

The Inquisitor doesn't, and can't go back to the life they had before.  But a life that's less frenetic, and less world-saving attached to it.  To "lay down your banners" is an ending that appeals to me, personally.

[rapscallioness]

That's how my Quizzy's saw it.

[Ieldra]

Yeah but the Inquisitor changed a lot of things before losing everything he(mine is a he) gained.

This is actually exactly the point. Why should Thedas's gain be the Inquisitor's loss? It comes across as fundamentally unfair, an insult of fate. If it becomes a pattern, it reduces the heroes to their function. We need a hero to do X, here you have one, but know after they're done they'll be discarded as an inconvenience.

[Drasanil]

This is actually exactly the point. Why should Thedas's gain be the Inquisitor's loss? It comes across as fundamentally unfair, an insult of fate. If it becomes a pattern, it reduces the heroes to their function. We need a hero to do X, here you have one, but know after they're done they'll be discarded as an inconvenience.

 

The whole amputation thing did come across rather badly. "Oh great, you saved the world. Well, we need a new protagonist for the next game.... so go be an ineffectual cripple over there. Kthxbye!"

[Ieldra]

Depending on how you play, though, the arm may well be the only important thing the Inquisitor loses.
 
I mean, by leading the Inquisition, the Inquisitor games fame, power, and wealth.  All of these are reduced by the end, but certainly are not gone completely.  WHether the Inquisition operates under the umbrella of the Chantry or is wholly disbanded, the Inquisitor still commands some resources in looking for ways to stop Solas.
 
Heck it's possible to play an INquisitor who never really wanted all this responsibility to begin with.  And agreed with Mother Giselle about how the great things about the original Inquisition was it laid down its banners when the time was right.
 
In addition, I'd say that assuming the Inquisitor's romance didn't end in tragedy, that's a gain for the Inquisitor as well.  After all, he/she is unlikely to have ever met the LI without being affiliated with the Inquisition to begin with.  So if you like the idea of marrying Cullen and getting a mabari, or meeting Josephine's family, or traveling Thedas with Cassandra, it may be as Tali put it "totally worth it"
 
THe Inquisitor spent years as a larger than life figure.  A messiah, come to save everyone from the demons falling out of the sky.   Someone who ruled no nation but had the power to bend them to his/her will.  The Inquisitor has walked the Fade, commanded armies, conversed with kings, empresses, the very highest ranking officials of church and state. Discovered truths lost for thousands of years.  Someone who has battled dragons, demons, and even gods.   At some point, the concept of laying it all down and going back to being a "mere mortal" must have an appeal.  
 
The Inquisitor doesn't, and can't go back to the life they had before.  But a life that's less frenetic, and less world-saving attached to it.  To "lay down your banners" is an ending that appeals to me, personally.

You will have a reasonably happy outcome if...

(1) ...you like the Chantry or didn't care about disbanding your organization.
(2) ...you never cared for the Mark and the magical ability it gave you.

Unfortunately, neither of that applied to me. Trespasser's ending, as far as Inquisitor's fate is concerned, in fact if not necessarily intent supports a specific viewpoint about what heroes should be and do and how they should end up which is opposed to mine. Which wouldn't be a big matter if this hadn't been the same in all their stories ever since ME1. The last of Bioware's games I've played that didn't do this was, ironically, KotOR (then came the books and "corrected" things, but that's a different matter).

I should mention that this pattern does occasionally work out fine, as in DAO, but then, that's just me - there are others who had their Wardens in their minds as Arls of Amaranthine for years, and were harshly surprised by the canonical future.

[Ieldra]

I've read some comments about personal loss being a necessary element of a hero's story, without which it would be boring.

I actually agree. In fact, it's one of DAI's weak points that the Inquisitor never experiences a convincing setback during the main story - Haven would qualify, except that it doesn't feel personal because the Inquisitor was drawn into this against their will, and the confrontation with Corypheus can actually be counted as a win. My point was about stories *ending* with personal loss of everything the heroes have gained in the story. The former, if properly implemented, helps to define the hero by letting them overcome their losses or setbacks and go on. The latter is just a disappointing loss.

[rpgfan321]

Part of me still wanted the Inquisitor to die and focus on the new protagonist without the Inquisitor being a loose end. 

[Ieldra]

Part of me still wanted the Inquisitor to die and focus on the new protagonist without the Inquisitor being a loose end.

Compared to that, I rather prefer the loose end of the Inquisitor's shirt sleeve.

[rpgfan321]

Compared to that, I rather prefer the loose end of the Inquisitor's shirt sleeve.

Well said

 

I feel like being forced to give up such precious resources and status also is part of what Inquisition was going for as in history of Thedas is mired in misrepresentation and half-truths for mere convenience of those in power.

 

I wanted an option for the Inquisition to turn into some sort of UN for Thedas or some position to maintain its independence. But it didn't happen. Story-wise, I don't think Orlais and Ferelden were ready as countries; they just have too much history to make such peace and allow a third party with equal if not bigger power to lie between them.

 

Like Ameridan. Inquisitor Ameridan had a lot to gain just like the new Inquisitor, but with a mere snap of fate, he lost everything. How people viewed him as a figure over time got warped and the true retelling just got lost. There seems to be a lot of that in Thedas' history and I see the new Inquisitor as one of them especially since they are the leader of the new Inquisition. I guess what I'm trying to say is that having so much personal loss seems to follow a theme I saw while playing Inquisition?

[fhs33721]

(2) ...you never cared for the Mark and the magical ability it gave you.
 

You mean the magical ability to close fade rifts caused by the breach, which no longer exists?

[BSpud]

Which planet do you BSNers live in? SJW planet it seems, because in real world a lot of people would rather die than losing a limb and/or becoming ugly or deformed. Having a healthy and beautiful body is usually a big deal for humans. House (tv series) choose to life in pain instead of losing his leg. Not everyone is deep, some people are as shallow as it gets, plus life is not a big deal for everybody, some people in Mass Effect universe would rather die having sex with a Succubus Asari than living their boring lives...

 

How many forum accounts is this for you now?

 

Well, one ex girlfriend of mine tried to kill herself because I refused to go to the gym, SERIOUSLY.

 

Sure, crazy cakes.

[ArianaGBSA]

How many forum accounts is this for you now?

 

I can only count to 3 and sometimes I forget that number between 1 and 3... which is it anyway? But I would guess somewhere between 3 hundred billion and infinite times 8/0 (whatever these numbers mean, I just like the sound of saying it)

[Ieldra]

You mean the magical ability to close fade rifts caused by the breach, which no longer exists?

I mean the magical ability to walk into the Fade.