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The threat of demonic possession


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#26
FrankWisdom

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One thing I never really understood is that we haven't heard, to the best of my knowledge, of Trevinter or the Dalish being overcome by demons. So is it fair to say that only non-Elves living in some areas of Thedas are particularly vulnerable? Is this because the veil is thin?

 

I am also not sure I fully understand Solas's assertion that demons are spirits, brought into the world unexpectedly or against their will. If spirits are not inherently evil then why are the people of Thedas so afraid?

 

Spirits channel and embody emotions. Fear is perpetuated by lack of knowledge and understanding. Fear also permeates your perceptions, which distort how things truly are. Your perception therefore is tainted and when a spirit picks up this notion it is fundamentally changed to reflect those raw feelings.

 

Spirit Cole also says this about The Fade and spirits

 

"It is here (The Fade) but held, constrained by a construct, veiled. Feelings, memories, minds, mortality: All shape it, a glass to hold water, we flow in the deep (Fade). Without you (Mortals), we (spirits) have nothing, not even us."

 

Our fears, our hopes and everything in-between is what shapes everything they embody.

 

It is the same as saying God did not create us, we created God. He embodies all we wish to be, all we wish to have. Power over things we cannot change, answers to that which we do not understand, a tool to help us let go and move forward, the embodiment of faith itself. The same way demons do not hold sway over our fears, but rather it is our fears that fuel our demons.

 

Given The Chantry views on magic, such as trying to control it, by limiting practice and study, eyeing it with suspicion and warning of its danger, and given the influence it has on the World of Thedas, then one can understand the correlation between possession within such a strained relationship between the people's perceptions and reality.

 

The Avvar and Dalish are less populated, therefore have an easier time watching over their charges i.e. mages, though Tevinter shows us that this is not the main reason for the lack of incidents. The most important difference is they seek understanding first. A relationship of trust for example is established between spirits and the Avvar. An Augur will help mages by having them bond with a spirit who teaches them the ways of "The Fade". Spirits are not regarded as inherently dangerous or evil and therefore reflect those thoughts and feelings. The Dalish similarly seek knowledge and treat magic as a natural part of the world rather than something that is "Unnatural" and perverse within itself.

 

Tevinter is ruled by many mages. The main difference is they do not fear magic but embrace it. The problem here is that some mages seek power and willingly choose to be possessed through their lust for power, greed and arrogance. Similarly spirits will reflect those feelings and so manifest as "demons" as this is what the mages seek. Obviously this is not the case for every Tevinter mage, like any massive population, but because of the amount of mages residing there, and the liberal use of magic ingrained in the culture, the potential for abuse is also greater.

 

 

The most important thing to remember is the potential for misinterpretation is perpetuated by a lack of understanding and the nature of one's personal desires and perceptions.

 

These are all consequences of the veil being put in place, which sundered a natural balance  that was struck and changed the dynamic of both "worlds".

 

This is why I don't approve of the Chantry or the circles, not because they are "inherently bad" but because they alienate magic while perpetuating fear, misinterpretation and misunderstanding across the general populace which leads to a vicious circle (pun intended) of abuse and danger. This also then transfers to apostates and their parents, who either try to hide their children (effectively ignoring their circumstances and making things worse, where the child does not learn to control his magic) or who resent their "gifts" and make their children resent themselves or feel ashamed of who they are simply because they were born with special gifts.

 

That increases their chances of being possessed and becoming hostile. They have a very limited amount of people in which they can confide, either people who would understand or people who wouldn't be judgmental or biased. They also lack the tools with which to deal with their emotions or an outlet to express them in a "healthy" and "sound" manner. Think of people in our world that have emotional or psychological disorders or come from "broken" homes, third world countries ruled by dictators etc. It all comes down to the same problems, with the added dangers related to the use of "magic".

 

The Avvar still have to deal with weaker mages that cannot cope with their emotions i.e. fear, greed, pride etc. and so handle them (in a humane way). It is a sad state of affairs but the natural order of things. This is where the tool and how you use it comes into play.

 

to quote spider-man, with great power comes great responsibility. Not everyone is equipped to deal with such a situation, though understanding the nature of that power is instrumental in learning how to handle it properly. The system that the Chantry employs doesn't give way to that concept. They rather deny such power in fear of the consequences, yet the consequences are precisely the result of such fears, not the other way around. There's an important difference between being cautious and acting out of fear.

 

This is why the harrowing is so horrendous. It already creates a negative disposition within mages, enhancing their fears and doubts, making them ripe for possession and giving "demons" an unfair advantage. Surviving does mark an exceptionally willful individual, but also prevents mages who could have come into their own with time, patience and understanding the short end of the stick, dying without reaching that potential.

 

 

"Ultimately, a demon is simply a spirit whose purpose has been perverted. Pulling a spirit unwillingly into the mortal world, particularly to achieve a goal out of keeping with its nature, will change a spirit into a demon (however, a spirit passing willingly through the Veil will not be changed[3]). Furthermore, an individual anticipating seeing a demon will do so, even if the entity is in fact a spirit.[4]"

 

This is why I like how the Avvar deal with it. I also hope the college of enchanters trains their mages in the same way, though I'm "disappointed" in the fact that the circle is forced upon the world no matter our choices in inquisition, it is solely about the "illusion" of choice. I fully understand the decision from a narrative standpoint, after all, conflict is what drives good storytelling. Also, we all need a similar starting point when moving into the next frnachise. It would be much too hard to encompass a huge variety of decisions, big and small in one game while keeping with a focused narrative. Their can be "minor mutations" but some "major" themes have to be respected.


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#27
TravisTrevelyan

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I feel like the Circle will always be around, just because there will always be some Mages who prefer it. Even putting Leliana in power doesn't guarantee that it won't happen. 
I feel like your choices are still well represented, but you're never the outright ruler of any nation, so regardless of what your character does, they'll always be someone higher up overruling what you say and do. 



#28
In Exile

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The problem I think is that many in Bioware's audience don't want this type of storyline...a "safer" storyline involving Chantry bad/mages good is what I think Bioware is going for now.

 

It doesn't help that in each game you can play a mage and you are under no threat of demonic possession thus there's an inherent bias against the belief that magic is dangerous especially blood magic.

 

I ahree with you...the current THEDAS worldstate is actually LESS interesting than ORIGINS since it has become a typical fantasy world - what makes magic different in Thedas than from say Elder Scrolls, D&D or the Witcher? Indeed, the more I think of it, other than power levels, Tevinter could be the Red wizards of Thay from the Forgotten Realms setting....

 

Throw in "multiple gods" and the move away from a monotheism setting (which for a fantasy setting WAS unique) and Thedas is one of the countless young adult fantasy novel that gets prodced in the dozens every year....

 

Demon possession wasn't the thing that was supposed to set magic apart - it was blood magic, and mind control (playing charm spells from D&D straight re: their implications). DA:I actually spends a lot of time on possession - but a lot of it is focused on showing that the nature of the entity - and the views we adopt of it - are critical to creating "possession" in the way the Chantry (and modern Thedas) understand it (cf. the Avaar and their views of divinity). 



#29
ComedicSociopathy

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The threat of demonic ultimately seems to fall on the individual willpower of any given mage. Some mages like Dorian and Vivienne can literally be thrown into the Fade physically, battle wave after wave of demons and be confronted by their worst fears, and yet still manage to shrug such an encounter off like it was nothing, while Uldred in Origins botches a blood magic spell and gets possessed immediately. It's a weird disparity and it lends me to the believe that some mages are almost possession proof while others are just doomed to succumb whenever they face a really emotional situation or suffer temptation from a demon. 

 

And because Bioware doesn't want to deal with every mage companion or player character constantly having to deal with some kind of insanity meter to determine how close they are to being possessed, we see that most of them never have to have serious efforts to ward off possession. For Morrigan, Dorian, Vivienne, Awakening Anders, etc, it's do big deal no matter how many countless demons they face. 

 

It kind of messes with the lore, but that that's no surprise. It's not as if Templar PC's over have to deal with lyrium addiction after all. 


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#30
Bleachrude

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Demon possession wasn't the thing that was supposed to set magic apart - it was blood magic, and mind control (playing charm spells from D&D straight re: their implications). DA:I actually spends a lot of time on possession - ity). 

 

I STRONGLY disagree with this...In Origins at least, the biggest aspect that made magic different in Thedas than your typical fantasy magic system WAS demonic possession and they showed this. 2 of the 4 main storylines dealt with demonic possession - The circle tower and Redcliffe. Blood magic itself was an obstacle but not the main focus on any questline.

 

 

And because Bioware doesn't want to deal with every mage companion or player character constantly having to deal with some kind of insanity meter to determine how close they are to being possessed, we see that most of them never have to have serious efforts to ward off possession. For Morrigan, Dorian, Vivienne, Awakening Anders, etc, it's do big deal no matter how many countless demons they face. 

 

It kind of messes with the lore, but that that's no surprise. It's not as if Templar PC's over have to deal with lyrium addiction after all. 

 

In Bioware's defense, I seriously doubt most gamers want to deal with this...there's a reason why the taint mechanic was never instituted for your companions in Origins and WHY many hated the "companions betray you in the Fade" in DA2.


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#31
MattH

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The willpower of mages like Morrigan, Dorian and Vivienne is what holds the demons at bay. All are powerful enough without aid from demons, thus have never been in a position where they'd be tempted by one. Morrigan would never be influenced, Vivienne views bloodmages as weak, while Dorian's arrogance is probably what keeps him from accepting any deal.

I do hope they handle demons, spirits and possession differently in the next DA game. Its a horrific prospect and terrifying subject matter, the game should reflect it as such. Demons have never been scary in a DA game before, its time they were.

#32
Chaos Imperius

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This is my theoryso sit down humans Grandpa Darkpawn gonna tell you a story so at the beginning there wasn't nothing but somewhere some crazy power came and created 2 worlds one is our familiar thedas and second ghosts realm aka The fade first there were the elves who controlled the world and dwarves, normal elves without magical talent had passive connection to the fade and when they went to sleep their souls visited the fade but they were unaware of that so they created they own place where their memories were replayed some of them were active connected to the fade they are mages they are able to use energy from the fade and they were powerful normal elves the strongest praised as a gods,the fade was peaceful place full of spirits who often visited thedas spirits are our emotions and personality (justice,faith,honor,love) because elves were peaceful with dwarves there was no war untill the big betrayal and humans coming the pantheon of elven "gods" started war between themselves in the fade which caused horrible change of the fade into fade which we know now elves used spirits to fight feeded by the negative empotions of them turned them into demons and monsters this caused a big collapse in their imperium while humans who now created thr tevinter rise decided to strike weakened elven empire and enslave them those gods who survived were possesed by demons (acient gods) or they witdraw from the fade badly wounded seeking for host body this is how flemeth met Mythal after the defeat of the elvens the tevinter created the imperium so they rules the thedas they made alliance with dwarves who unlike humans and elven origins comes from the titans who are their creators their blood is lyrium a magical substance which allow mage to draw more energy or gives warrior strenght and agility dwarves called themselves the pure race because only they could harvest lyrium and so as the tevinters were addicted to lyrium they made mentioned alliance with them years passed and demons hungers for our flesh tried to break the veil even the acient gods couldnt break him so they'll started to whisper to the most powerful magister in the tevinter rise called Corypheus and his inner circle and told him how to use the blood magic and enter the golden city in the physical form the golden city was created by elven gods as their home but after war it become home of acient gods their goal was possesed magisters and lead army of demons to destroy thedas the magisters opened a rift and entered into the golden city but magisters were corrupted and acient magic in the city caused them to turn into what they are inside this caused a big magical collapse which withdrawed magisters and the acient gods out of the fade their corruption remained in the city and turned him into the black city the gods asleep in deep of thedas and magisters became the first darkspawns they were able to hear the whispering of acient gods and they found dumat this caused first blight this caused a global threat for the world dwarves were pushed from their thaigs and their deep roads were destroyed and became a home for darkspawns this caused them to split up them and cut them from the titans some dwarves decided to protect them so they didnt know about the darkspawns and darkspawns were scared of the titans the darkspawns leaded by dumat who got corrupted by their blight decimated tevintet rise until the group of brave heroes decided to create a organisation grey wardens and slayed dumat in 203- corypheus and magisters were still leading them into battle but they were slayed or captuted by wardens corypheus was imprisoned and the remaining darkspawns ran back to the deep roads also lets mention the kossith race known as the qunari arrived before the 1 blight started after this 1 blight imperium licked his wounds dwarves were decimated and forced to survive endless darkspawns raids their golems tech was lost and most of their culture was lost due darkspawns in -203 is andraste born date she met with very strong spirit in their dreams anf this spirit falls in love with her for some reason all spirits from the fade decided to help uprising revolution of barbarians,enslaved elves and andraste followers by causing hurricans which destroyed imperium ships and their forces were crushed this forced them to surrender and leaded into victory and fall of tevinter after that andraste in the liberated parts of thedas created a Maker religius she married the spirit which makes her husband mad and caused him to betray her and sold her to tevinter rise where she was burned alive the remaining elves started to live with the humans or went to find their past and culture and after andraste death there are 2 countried Orlais and Ferelden hated by Dales elves because they think humans are responsible for their defeat and losing theit past,tevinter rise,kossith who following the Qun,few remaining dwarves rises Orzammar etc so mage can be possesed while he sleeps,going into fade,being defeated by demon, casting spells only using pure fade energy so trought casting he cant be possessed

#33
The Ascendant

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Demonic possession isn't that bad, it isn't incurable and can be dealt with in a safe manner. As we've seen when saving Connor from the desire demon and dealing with the Avvar, a race of people most deem little more than barbarians and yet they are very open minded and knowledgeable about spirits.


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#34
azarhal

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I STRONGLY disagree with this...In Origins at least, the biggest aspect that made magic different in Thedas than your typical fantasy magic system WAS demonic possession and they showed this. 2 of the 4 main storylines dealt with demonic possession - The circle tower and Redcliffe. Blood magic itself was an obstacle but not the main focus on any questline.

 

 

In Exile is talking about in Universe reasons, the Chantry stance on magic is that blood magic is forbidden because it allows for mind control (magic exist to server man, not rule over him) and that mages shouldn't be put in power (power corrupt, absolute power corrupt absolutely). It wasn't originally about possession, that came later when the first circle had to be annulled because of an abomination.



#35
Bleachrude

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In Exile is talking about in Universe reasons, the Chantry stance on magic is that blood magic is forbidden because it allows for mind control (magic exist to server man, not rule over him) and that mages shouldn't be put in power (power corrupt, absolute power corrupt absolutely). It wasn't originally about possession, that came later when the first circle had to be annulled because of an abomination.

 

Oh..I think we might be talking at cross-purposes...My statement was ALSO a reference in agreement with the OP. The OP mentions that the "threat of demonic possession" seems to be "absent" from inquisition whereas in Origins, the threat WAS front and center....

 

For example, in Inquisition, toher than Vivienne mentioning it, I think we only have to deal with one abomination and that quest was a side stop and you could easily resolve it without the inquistion soldier becoming an abomination. Contrast this with Origins which I've mentioned....


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#36
BloodKaiden

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The threat of demonic possession is more absent in Inquisition because the Fade bastards are leaping through Rifts without the need to even possess a mage or mundane.

#37
berelinde

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Mages who allow themselves to be possessed are giving up the sovereignty of their own minds and bodies. That isn't something most people would ever contemplate unless the alternative was certain death. Mages like Uldred might do it because their ambition is greater than their wisdom, but pretty much everybody else understands the cost, and that it simply isn't worth it. As for Anders, he didn't let Justice in because he wanted a promotion. He let him in because he thought he was saving Justice's life. It was an act of compassion. It went terribly, monstrously wrong, but it began with good intentions.

 

So, in that sense, asking for more mages at risk of possession is really asking for more weak, greedy mages like Uldred or more stranded Fade spirits like Justice. Justice's situation was always intended to be unique. There's nothing to prevent a person from asking the writers to write more mages as being greedy and weak, but the writers are under no obligation to comply with the request.

 

Apart from that, if reality in Thedas isn't living up to your expectations, it might make more sense to adjust your expectations rather than ask the devs to write the world according to your specifications.



#38
azarhal

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Oh..I think we might be talking at cross-purposes...My statement was ALSO a reference in agreement with the OP. The OP mentions that the "threat of demonic possession" seems to be "absent" from inquisition whereas in Origins, the threat WAS front and center....

 

For example, in Inquisition, toher than Vivienne mentioning it, I think we only have to deal with one abomination and that quest was a side stop and you could easily resolve it without the inquistion soldier becoming an abomination. Contrast this with Origins which I've mentioned....

 

Champion of the Just could be considered the result of willful possession, it's just that Envy demons don't possess people's body directly.



#39
Wulfram

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They probably felt they'd overdone it in DA2 and didn't want to make it seem like mages could be possessed if they sneezed too hard.

Mages being portrayed as essentially ticking time bombs was crowding out what I think is the more interesting theme that looks at the abuse of power.