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So, Drew Karpyshyn has rejoined BioWare. (Working on TOR for now.)


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#251
FKA_Servo

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I am saving Agent for last.

 

Bounty Hunter took a while to get into, but man it had a lot of moments where it just clicked. Sith Inquisitor i loved the first half, from slave to Sith is such a good hook too.

 

I'm in the middle of my second SI playthough, this time as a sorceror - it was actually the first one I played (way back in early access! Jeez), but I like it a lot. I loved the bounty hunter, though.

 

I think consular and trooper are the only ones I haven't done, except for Sith Warrior, which I abandoned some just before Corellia (not for any particular reason, just that I'm off the game a bit for a while).



#252
AlanC9

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See, the narrative is part of the mechanics; it is the aspects of the plot you manipulate through playing the game. You can manipulate it through the choices you make, narrative decisions for an idealistic outcome, a pragmatic outcome, a ruthless one; most of that done internally with your characterization of Shepard or with your own personal style of role-playing.

I'm not really comfortable with thinking of player choices in that manner while playing the game. To the extent that I'm aware that I can do this, I'm distanced from my character, who probably doesn't think of his life as a narrative that he can manipulate. My preference is for choices that can't be manipulated in this fashion, at least not consistently.

To argue that the narrative is not part of the mechanics, or separated from the combat gameplay, is where the flaw is. Narrative mechanics and choice and consequence is not only part of the game mechanics, but integral to the games design, otherwise the choices would be made for us instead and there would be no need to role-play during the game, it would be a dungeon crawl or rogue-like by design, going from map to map to meet out objectives. That dissonance doesn't exist in the way you describe it because there are costs to your decisions, sometimes big ones depending on your said consequence, as they affect the narrative tone of your game and your in-character experience.

But part of the problem here is that those costs are almost always avoidable. It's not difficult to get everyone through the SM, to make peace at Rannoch, to talk the VS down, and so forth. That's where the dissonance comes in; we get to the ending and suddenly costs are not avoidable.
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#253
wolfhowwl

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But part of the problem here is that those costs are almost always avoidable. It's not difficult to get everyone through the SM, to make peace at Rannoch, to talk the VS down, and so forth. That's where the dissonance comes in; we get to the ending and suddenly costs are not avoidable.

 
The QuarterToThree Mass Effect 3 review pointed out that many of the series' choices were actually instead investments in completing content in disguise and felt that it was "inappropriate" to change course at the very end.
 

Mass Effect is arguably best known for its choice and consequence system, but I fundamentally disagree with Bioware’s approach. This finale confirms that the majority of choices in the series aren’t really choices at all. They’re investments. As long as I complete all the quests and stick to my chosen personality, I can “win” nearly every crisis point in the game.


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#254
AlanC9

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Thanks. Hadn't read that piece before.

#255
Gothfather

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Then I failed to explain my point. I was not talking about necessity of less death in the game - not at all. I was talking about deaths not supported mechanically. If you fight one particular type of mob all the time in numbers, you barely notice them already - because the game throws it at you at every corner - making ONE of that mob a super-unbeatable killer who easily kills a companion or suddenly become a serious obstacle to you is game breaking.

 

Not the fact of death of NPC or PC makes many people angry, but the way that death was handled. And that comes with inconsistency between writing and game-mechanics.

I'm trying to think when bioware did this? Can you refresh my memory when they created a super unbeatable mook to kill off a companion?

 

I do know that soldiers die by things that they "routinely" face, (i use routine loosely) it is one of the indignities of war. So I personally don't find a "mook" killing someone  game breaking. But i hate "boss" fights in general because they are always the enemy can do X just because the developers wanted to make the fight challenging and often its figure out the "mechanics" of the fight and its no longer a challenge just a time sink grind.



#256
Gothfather

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Give that boy his virtual tragedies, BW. He needs to get over it.

You call me a boy which implies that asking for tragedy in the "virtual" environment is immature, how does that work? Is somehow a "virtual" tragedy a lesser form of entertainment than any other type of tragedy in fiction, that wanting tragedy in games is a sign of immaturity but not in other media? Or I suppose that, what the vast landscape of fictional tragedy isn't a valid and integral part of story telling, is that your point? Or is it only invalid in the "virtual" realm of entertainment?

 

Tragedy is an integral part of fiction it is a tradition that goes as far back as the written word. I highly doubt that somehow asking that this tradition be embraced in gaming is a sign of unreasonableness or immaturity, but please illustrate how I am wrong.


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#257
Morty Smith

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You call me a boy which implies that asking for tragedy in the "virtual" environment is immature, how does that work? Is somehow a "virtual" tragedy a lesser form of entertainment than any other type of tragedy in fiction, that wanting tragedy in games is a sign of immaturity but not in other media? Or I suppose that, what the vast landscape of fictional tragedy isn't a valid and integral part of story telling, is that your point? Or is it only invalid in the "virtual" realm of entertainment?

 

Tragedy is an integral part of fiction it is a tradition that goes as far back as the written word. I highly doubt that somehow asking that this tradition be embraced in gaming is a sign of unreasonableness or immaturity, but please illustrate how I am wrong.

 

You ain´t wrong, you´re just overdramatic and stuck on the same rock as the people you belittle, girl.

 

Just embrace happy ends, rainbows and cotton candy.



#258
Iakus

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You ain´t wrong, you´re just overdramatic and stuck on the same rock as the people you belittle, girl.

 

Just embrace happy ends, rainbows and cotton candy.

But, but!  True Art is Angsty!

 

;)



#259
AlanC9

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I do know that soldiers die by things that they "routinely" face, (i use routine loosely) it is one of the indignities of war. So I personally don't find a "mook" killing someone  game breaking.


Though it would contradict the mechanics. CRPGs and most PnP RPGs - except for the ones with cheap resurrection - are designed so a mook can't kill a character without a long process. In Champions, for instance, it's impossible for a normal handgun or rifle to kill a normal human without landing multiple shots. From a realist perspective, the problem is with the regular mechanics rather than the cutscene where the mook kills the NPC.

#260
Gothfather

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See, the narrative is part of the mechanics; it is the aspects of the plot you manipulate through playing the game. You can manipulate it through the choices you make, narrative decisions for an idealistic outcome, a pragmatic outcome, a ruthless one; most of that done internally with your characterization of Shepard or with your own personal style of role-playing.

 

To argue that the narrative is not part of the mechanics, or separated from the combat gameplay, is where the flaw is. Narrative mechanics and choice and consequence is not only part of the game mechanics, but integral to the games design, otherwise the choices would be made for us instead and there would be no need to role-play during the game, it would be a dungeon crawl or rogue-like by design, going from map to map to meet out objectives. That dissonance doesn't exist in the way you describe it because there are costs to your decisions, sometimes big ones depending on your said consequence, as they affect the narrative tone of your game and your in-character experience.

 

The theme of overcoming an unstoppable force is met with an immovable object; the need for change, with Shepard being the one who changes it, is paramount from the first game. Mechanically and narratively speaking, that makes sense right down to the conclusion, where Shepard literally makes the final decision. Even this choice is part of the theme, where we don't really know what our decisions will do for the future, but we make them and hope for the best anyway, because of the reasons we give your character, or the reasons we make through gameplay. 

 

If you played it without all of this in mind though, without delving into the reasons "why" through a character or personal lens, then I can see where you are coming from then. Even so though, Mass Effect has little to do with power fantasy mechanics- that is what Skyrim is all about because you have no restrictions to what you can actually do, through combat or otherwise, forges your own narrative through play. Mass Effect is grounded in a more light-RPG mentality; the narrative and plot take precedence in the game design because it is designed to be linear and character heavy, versus total control of your actions. Combat and powers are easy to use and simple, borrowing from third person shooter gameplay to create something that is more "pick up and play" vs stat-based.

 

 Mass Effect is essentially a  hybrid between Western and Japanese design, a trend we see in a lot of modern RPGs as of late- The Witcher for example, is another that follows this hybridization, as does Dark Souls and Final Fantasy as of late, to a lesser extant. Narrative and plot, how choices and consequences are resolved not just through in-game rewards, but dialogue and reaction to them, is part of the games focus by its very design; they are the mechanics as much as shooting the avenger is. 

 

I truly believe the reason why people were pissed is not due to diametrically opposed narratives, but a combination of not understanding what type of narrative they had to begin with and not being able to control the fate of their character fully; the latter of which is found throughout the entire game, the former which can be confusing if you weren't looking at it. 

 

If what you say is true, then the reason why people are pissed about Mass Effect is because they didn't play it like an actual RPG then; taking those narrative decisions as part of the games mechanics. I really doubt that is the case. 

 

WTF?

 

Not every aspect of game design is mechanics, yet mechanics can effect many aspects of the game that does not make said aspect mechanics. The character creator in a game is a mechanical interface for making your character but all the eyes, skin tones, hair in fact ALL the meshes and textures that make up any character are part of ART design not mechanics. A sword that you swing doesn't become a mechanic even though mechanics are used to manipulate said sword or gun. The asset of the sword, or any other "asset" in the game is part of art design. The results of swinging said sword are not art design they are mechanics, the statistics of the sword are mechanics. Two seperate parts of game design even though both are used to portray a sword attack.  By your definition the only thing that would be art in the game is anything that you can't interact with because otherwise that is mechanics. Simply because you can choose some MINOR branches in the story narrative does not render the story narrative a mechanic of the game.

 

The fact that there is a way to interact with the story narrative does not magically turn the entire narrative into a mechanic. Just because I can use a mechanic to change the colour of my eyes or the style of my hair in a game doesn't magically make hair and eyes mechanics instead of art design. Yes you can use LIMITED mechanics to interact with the story narrative but the story narrative is still the story narrative it does not become the mechanics of the game. And it is more than possible to watch a mass effect "movie" on youtube of just cut scenes you are just a passive watcher and there is a story narrative being told and that story narrative DIRECTLY compliments and support the theme of the series. This is something that is separate in its own right to the mechanics of the game just as art design is. The are not one of the same thing they are different aspects of game design. Games design is NOT synonymous with game mechanics.

 

Yes the story narrative is integral to GAME DESIGN it is not integral to game mechanics. This is how you can get narratives told in games like a RAIL shooter. Clear the level and poof get a cut scene revealing more of the narrative. You can get narratives in RTS games completely separate from the games mechanics but integral to the games design. How? Clear a level and watch a cut scene.

 

So what do I mean by story narrative vs. Mechanics narrative? Lets look at a game with ZERO story narrative but a powerful narrative is told simply by the games mechanics, Missile Command. There is no story narrative, no exposition nothing. There are few words in the entire game and yet there is a narrative told. This narrative is about the hopelessness of trying to save the cities from nuclear destruction. And it is hopeless because you can't "win" there is no end game you just keep going until you lose all your cities. It is a powerful narrative but it is only told through the mechanics of the game. Every game tells a narrative outside and separate from the story presented. all games have a mechanical narrative. And you get conflicts when the mechanical narrative conflicts with the story narrative. This can be obvious and blatant like a boss fight in Dead rising 3. You kill the boss with X weapon but a cutscene starts up at the bosses death and poof magically the narrative is that you killed the boss with a Molotov cocktail. And people watch this going WTF? That isn't how I killed the boss. The reason they react to this is because there are two SEPARATE  narratives being told. In the same game TotalBiscuit talks about a separate dissonance between the way the character speaks and acts in the story narrative vs what he does mechanically.  This is another example of how a games MECHANICS tell a separate narrative to the story's narrative.

 

Source: https://youtu.be/uBnIpDfyUi0?t=22m32s

 

i don't deny Shepard is portrayed as a messiah figure but that does not require a conflicting power fantasy narrative. in fact there is a story narrative scene where Shepard is NOT suppose to feel like a kick ass killing machine in Me3, yet everything about the mechanics of the game says you are a "god of death." An the way to the Cerberus HQ you have a romance scene with you li and then a dream and then the i can't sleep conversation. All of this was intended to make Shepard be more "human" but it conflicts with the I am the god of death narrative told by the mechanics. It conflicts so much that the dream sequences are panned by many players as emotional manipulation. Yet any story is by definition trying to engender some kind of emotional response, that's what all entertainment tries to do. The exact emotion differs but the goal is the same, so why do the dream sequences feel like manipulation vs. just telling an aspect of the story? Again because of the conflict between what the story is telling us and what the mechanics are telling us. This conflict is most evident in me3 but also starts in me2.

 

To say that ME2 and Me3 are not power fantasy is just because skyrim is and the major difference between skyrim and mass effect is the skyrim has fewer restriction is to be blind to the definition of what the power fantasy is. Comic book super heroes are power fantasy stories, you just finished stating that Shepard is the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object or visa versa which is by any sane definition larger than life, more powerful than normal which is the foundational pillar of the POWER fantasy. WTF? How to you square that circle????? You can't describe Shepard as larger than life in one paragraph and then claim just because you don't have the open world freedom of skyrim mass effect 3 can't be a power fantasy. That is logically inconsistent. The openness of Skyrim is a separate aspect of Skyrim's power fantasy mechanics. These features are not one in the same.

 

I am not saying the STORY narrative, which you keep using to defend the mechanics but however they are actually two SEPARATE aspects of game play, is inconsistent. In fact i keep saying that with regards to the STORY narrative there is nothing conflicting with the games theme. I make this entirely clear. The conflict is with the mechanics of Play. And sorry but these are entirely separate from the story.

 

WTF does western style and JRPG style games have to do with the topic at hand? NOTHING. This has nothing to do with the inherent conflict between the two narratives that the developers made with ME3/2.

 

Pffft that doesn't explain why people who liked the Shepard death endings thinking the endings sucked. It doesn't explain why the star child is hated. Your theory only explains why the "I want my Shepard and LI sipping drinks on the beach ending," crowd which i doubt makes up the majority of players who hate teh endings. The endings are almost universally panned. It is such a huge percent of the player base. Your theory suggests that what we had no idea we were playing an RPG and that is why we hate the endings? WTF?

 

Not once have you addressed anything about the mechanics of play and how they create a feeling of empowerment and yet the story keeps telling Shepard we are hopeless against the reapers, Except in one paragraph you claim that Shepard is the empowered saviour of the galaxy and in the fraking very next paragraph you claim there is no power fantasy.  Simply because the story narrative complements the theme does not mean the narrative the mechanics tell does so. They are not the same thing.



#261
Gothfather

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Though it would contradict the mechanics. CRPGs and most PnP RPGs - except for the ones with cheap resurrection - are designed so a mook can't kill a character without a long process. In Champions, for instance, it's impossible for a normal handgun or rifle to kill a normal human without landing multiple shots. From a realist perspective, the problem is with the regular mechanics rather than the cutscene where the mook kills the NPC.

 

Okay so it is a given that the power fantasy mechanics renders combat unrealistic. Does this mean that a cut scene of someone dying from a gunshot is bad writing? I personally don't think the mechanics of a game have to line up 100% with the story of a game. I also don't think developers creating mechanics need to eliminate the power fantasy from their tool box of game design because they create unrealistic combat. I do think that if you have a narrative that conflicts/run at cross purposes with a game's theme you will create a poorer game. I think this is why most alien franchise games failed when they tried to create "Alien: The power fantasy shooter." The theme of the alien franchise is being unempowered against the alien. It is what makes good horror. Even in Aliens the kick ass marines got cut down because if they won the first encounter that would conflict with the theme of the movie and the movie falls apart. Yet they make "Alien: the horror/stealth game" and poof it is widely seen as a critical and fan success. I think this is a perfect example of how the power fantasy can ruin a game when it is in conflict with the theme and an example of how getting the mechanics in line with the same franchise's theme can create an great game.

 

I am not trying to boil down all game failures to this issue. Nor is the power fantasy a bad trope in games in general, it is fun. i just think it doesn't work with all themes. I think it fails in ME3 for reasons already stated on the thread.



#262
Gothfather

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/snip

But part of the problem here is that those costs are almost always avoidable. It's not difficult to get everyone through the SM, to make peace at Rannoch, to talk the VS down, and so forth. That's where the dissonance comes in; we get to the ending and suddenly costs are not avoidable.

 

I just want to add that its not that I or AlanC9 (If i can be so bold as to speak for him) are advocating a cost free ending and that's why we think the endings failed. That is not in fact what we want. We wanted instead is that the mechanics that allowed for a cost free victory to have been eliminated. The main failure for me in ME3 and ME2 where the mechanics. They conflicted with the story and again I want to stress that this was mostly the issue of level design vs having powers A, B and C. In the levels against reapers we are by design suppose to whip them out. That conflicts with the idea the reapers are too powerful to beat conventionally. Cuz I don't know about you but every reaper I ever faced died, why can't we beat them conventionally again?



#263
legbamel

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I'm trying to think when bioware did this? Can you refresh my memory when they created a super unbeatable mook to kill off a companion?

 

I do know that soldiers die by things that they "routinely" face, (i use routine loosely) it is one of the indignities of war. So I personally don't find a "mook" killing someone  game breaking. But i hate "boss" fights in general because they are always the enemy can do X just because the developers wanted to make the fight challenging and often its figure out the "mechanics" of the fight and its no longer a challenge just a time sink grind.

Kai Leng killing Thane.  There's no reason Thane had to fight him directly, rather than sniping him, much like there's no reason Shep loses to him in the Asari temple, except plot armor.  When you do finally kill him it's no challenge whatsoever.



#264
dreamgazer

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Kai Leng killing Thane. There's no reason Thane had to fight him directly, rather than sniping him, much like there's no reason Shep loses to him in the Asari temple, except plot armor. When you do finally kill him it's no challenge whatsoever.


Shepard can withstand quite a bit of damage before going down, so Kai Leng isn't going to just go down by being "sniped".

Also, Kai Leng's victory on Thessia is almost exactly like what Saren did on Virmire, to which he's ultimately defeated in a silly but easy final boss battle.
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#265
LinksOcarina

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WTF?

 

Not every aspect of game design is mechanics, yet mechanics can effect many aspects of the game that does not make said aspect mechanics. The character creator in a game is a mechanical interface for making your character but all the eyes, skin tones, hair in fact ALL the meshes and textures that make up any character are part of ART design not mechanics. A sword that you swing doesn't become a mechanic even though mechanics are used to manipulate said sword or gun. The asset of the sword, or any other "asset" in the game is part of art design. The results of swinging said sword are not art design they are mechanics, the statistics of the sword are mechanics. Two seperate parts of game design even though both are used to portray a sword attack.  By your definition the only thing that would be art in the game is anything that you can't interact with because otherwise that is mechanics. Simply because you can choose some MINOR branches in the story narrative does not render the story narrative a mechanic of the game.

 

The fact that there is a way to interact with the story narrative does not magically turn the entire narrative into a mechanic. Just because I can use a mechanic to change the colour of my eyes or the style of my hair in a game doesn't magically make hair and eyes mechanics instead of art design. Yes you can use LIMITED mechanics to interact with the story narrative but the story narrative is still the story narrative it does not become the mechanics of the game. And it is more than possible to watch a mass effect "movie" on youtube of just cut scenes you are just a passive watcher and there is a story narrative being told and that story narrative DIRECTLY compliments and support the theme of the series. This is something that is separate in its own right to the mechanics of the game just as art design is. The are not one of the same thing they are different aspects of game design. Games design is NOT synonymous with game mechanics.

 

Yes the story narrative is integral to GAME DESIGN it is not integral to game mechanics. This is how you can get narratives told in games like a RAIL shooter. Clear the level and poof get a cut scene revealing more of the narrative. You can get narratives in RTS games completely separate from the games mechanics but integral to the games design. How? Clear a level and watch a cut scene.

 

So what do I mean by story narrative vs. Mechanics narrative? Lets look at a game with ZERO story narrative but a powerful narrative is told simply by the games mechanics, Missile Command. There is no story narrative, no exposition nothing. There are few words in the entire game and yet there is a narrative told. This narrative is about the hopelessness of trying to save the cities from nuclear destruction. And it is hopeless because you can't "win" there is no end game you just keep going until you lose all your cities. It is a powerful narrative but it is only told through the mechanics of the game. Every game tells a narrative outside and separate from the story presented. all games have a mechanical narrative. And you get conflicts when the mechanical narrative conflicts with the story narrative. This can be obvious and blatant like a boss fight in Dead rising 3. You kill the boss with X weapon but a cutscene starts up at the bosses death and poof magically the narrative is that you killed the boss with a Molotov cocktail. And people watch this going WTF? That isn't how I killed the boss. The reason they react to this is because there are two SEPARATE  narratives being told. In the same game TotalBiscuit talks about a separate dissonance between the way the character speaks and acts in the story narrative vs what he does mechanically.  This is another example of how a games MECHANICS tell a separate narrative to the story's narrative.

 

Source: https://youtu.be/uBnIpDfyUi0?t=22m32s

 

i don't deny Shepard is portrayed as a messiah figure but that does not require a conflicting power fantasy narrative. in fact there is a story narrative scene where Shepard is NOT suppose to feel like a kick ass killing machine in Me3, yet everything about the mechanics of the game says you are a "god of death." An the way to the Cerberus HQ you have a romance scene with you li and then a dream and then the i can't sleep conversation. All of this was intended to make Shepard be more "human" but it conflicts with the I am the god of death narrative told by the mechanics. It conflicts so much that the dream sequences are panned by many players as emotional manipulation. Yet any story is by definition trying to engender some kind of emotional response, that's what all entertainment tries to do. The exact emotion differs but the goal is the same, so why do the dream sequences feel like manipulation vs. just telling an aspect of the story? Again because of the conflict between what the story is telling us and what the mechanics are telling us. This conflict is most evident in me3 but also starts in me2.

 

To say that ME2 and Me3 are not power fantasy is just because skyrim is and the major difference between skyrim and mass effect is the skyrim has fewer restriction is to be blind to the definition of what the power fantasy is. Comic book super heroes are power fantasy stories, you just finished stating that Shepard is the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object or visa versa which is by any sane definition larger than life, more powerful than normal which is the foundational pillar of the POWER fantasy. WTF? How to you square that circle????? You can't describe Shepard as larger than life in one paragraph and then claim just because you don't have the open world freedom of skyrim mass effect 3 can't be a power fantasy. That is logically inconsistent. The openness of Skyrim is a separate aspect of Skyrim's power fantasy mechanics. These features are not one in the same.

 

I am not saying the STORY narrative, which you keep using to defend the mechanics but however they are actually two SEPARATE aspects of game play, is inconsistent. In fact i keep saying that with regards to the STORY narrative there is nothing conflicting with the games theme. I make this entirely clear. The conflict is with the mechanics of Play. And sorry but these are entirely separate from the story.

 

WTF does western style and JRPG style games have to do with the topic at hand? NOTHING. This has nothing to do with the inherent conflict between the two narratives that the developers made with ME3/2.

 

Pffft that doesn't explain why people who liked the Shepard death endings thinking the endings sucked. It doesn't explain why the star child is hated. Your theory only explains why the "I want my Shepard and LI sipping drinks on the beach ending," crowd which i doubt makes up the majority of players who hate teh endings. The endings are almost universally panned. It is such a huge percent of the player base. Your theory suggests that what we had no idea we were playing an RPG and that is why we hate the endings? WTF?

 

Not once have you addressed anything about the mechanics of play and how they create a feeling of empowerment and yet the story keeps telling Shepard we are hopeless against the reapers, Except in one paragraph you claim that Shepard is the empowered saviour of the galaxy and in the fraking very next paragraph you claim there is no power fantasy.  Simply because the story narrative complements the theme does not mean the narrative the mechanics tell does so. They are not the same thing.

 

One thing, I never stated the art cannot be the mechanics itself; that is a presumption you seem to be making. Assets and creation of that design is part of the mechanics as well, not just the drawings and the art direction that is presented. 

 

Think of it this way, how a scene is presented is part of that art design in of itself, or cinematography if you want to put it that way. How the camera is framed can be a part of the art of the scene, a key component to the visual representation.

 

Your example of missile command is actually perfect to showcase that. Outside of the word-for-word regurgitation of Extra Credits as a talking point, Missile Command, based on it's mechanics also ties to the art of the game; how the it looks and plays, to the box art or even the "The End" theme to it when you eventually lose. It adds to that sense of dread you mention, a sense of dread people probably didn't have when they first played it because they may not understand the themes involved in the direction of the game until recently. 

 

But the problem though is it's an apples and oranges comparison, you can't compare Missile Command to Mass Effect in how they approach mechanics like that first off.

 

Second, and more importantly, because of the nature of Mass Effect, the emphasis on choice, consequence and selecting dialogue to play with, the mechanics need to be the forefront of that whole design. Here is the thing, you are making the story you are passively watching right? So you are manipulating the plot to form that narrative. Remember, narrative and plot are separate; so you have control of narrative points in between the plot you are watching.

 

Now, video games are described as being similar to "Cool media", a term coined by Marshall McLuhan who was a media and technology expert. Cool media basically engages players through numerous senses at the same time, not at full force either. So for example, you are watching a conversation play out but at the same time picking and choosing what you say next. The conversation has several characters, so the scene has blocking and cinematography to it, and you also have interrupts thrown into the mix at times, which also involves reflex and reactionary timing.

 

This is a perfect example of cool media. You can passively watch a cut-scene, but that's easy. That makes it "hot media" when all of your attention is on what is right in front of you and you are passively engaged in it, like a film. Mass Effect, like most video games, when you are interacting with the game physically, you are engaged beyond just watching a cut-scene. You have control over the conversation flow and the direction of the story in those moments, versus watching someone else control it for you. It is two different things you are talking about.

 

What makes part of the games mechanics is that control the player has. Story narrative vs mechanical narrative are one in the same here, because of active participation vs watching things happen. A game like Dead Rising 3 has a passive narrative in most cases, so why John Bain felt like that is probably due to how disconnected the narrative is to his control. 

 

In fact, a lot of games suffer from that, but not Mass Effect. Not The Witcher to an extant either. Games with hybrid protagonists; player-developed RPG characters with a semblance of a previous personality, are perfect windows into that mindset because of how they are designed. You have control over what they say and how they even feel at time, but not their history, backstory, or direction they are going. 

 

I honestly don't really know what your problem is then. Simply put, you are wrong about the narrative mechanics being separate. Regarding how you play a game and how you kill enemies, that is a bit more skill based part of the game I guess and it does make it different from the narrative itself, but the entire game together encompasses the mechanics of the game itself, so the argument that one makes you more powerful yet tells you you aren't...thats bullshit frankly.

 

By the way, I can describe Shepard like that because that is how the game design actually works. A power fantasy is total control of a character to enact that fantasy for you; I am the master of my fate because I, as the player, can do anything and be a badass doing it. The ultimate truth is we are not the masters of Shepards full fate. We can manipulate it sure, in fact in that respect I would argue that in-game narrative choices are more of a power fantasy trope than being a badass in combat, but the duration of the game is not grounded into what you are describing if you ask me because we don't control Shepard fully.

 

I have said this before about the whole "W/J RPG" debate, it is in essence bullshit to begin with, but it came up because of the nature of Shepard as a in-game mechanic; he is a hybrid character type. We can create our Shepard, but we don't fully own Shepard. It is kind of like Geralt as well in that regard where the personality is there, we just pull the strings to when its necessary. 

 

And truth be told, the reason why I have not mentioned the mechanics of  play in this case it is irrelevant when the mechanics encompass the narrative. Going back to what cool media is all about, you can accomplish so damn much by shooting things and being deadly accurate, but you are not winning the war overall around you. Pyrrhic victories abound in Mass Effect 3 as you lose characters, potential squadmates, suffer major attacks that cost tons of lives- that kind of stuff is empowering in the end?

 

Shepard may be the highly skilled guy here, but hes not superman, he can't save everyone, and won't. A real, larger than life character in a power fantasy can, and usually is, infallible. 

 

With so much going on, I simply can't justify the game being a power fantasy in how you describe it. Either way, it does not really change the fact that your argument is still flawed. That is just a simple truth in the matter. Hell, mine is flawed too, but no discussion on the theory of design is fullproof anyway, and this is stuff I had to study for my Playing Roles series, and I had to do an article on design philosophy over abstract vs concrete gaming mechanics.

 

I guess the cop-out at this point is to agree to disagree? I don't feel like writing another essay unless I am getting paid for it at this point, I got actual grading to do that should take precedence here. I will say this has been a fun little discussion though. 



#266
LinksOcarina

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I'm not really comfortable with thinking of player choices in that manner while playing the game. To the extent that I'm aware that I can do this, I'm distanced from my character, who probably doesn't think of his life as a narrative that he can manipulate. My preference is for choices that can't be manipulated in this fashion, at least not consistently.

But part of the problem here is that those costs are almost always avoidable. It's not difficult to get everyone through the SM, to make peace at Rannoch, to talk the VS down, and so forth. That's where the dissonance comes in; we get to the ending and suddenly costs are not avoidable.

 

How comfortable you are is kind of a moot point, it is as much of the games mechanical design as the gun you are shooting and the button you press to do it in-game.

 

How we feel as we play is a different story, but that is more or less a simple fact of how its made, if you get me.



#267
AlanC9

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Also, Kai Leng's victory on Thessia is almost exactly like what Saren did on Virmire, to which he's ultimately defeated in a silly but easy final boss battle.


One of the enduring mysteries here is that things that worked fine in previous games somehow became awful when ME3 did them.

 

 

Well, it's only a mystery if you think that people here are intellectually honest.


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#268
AlanC9

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How comfortable you are is kind of a moot point, it is as much of the games mechanical design as the gun you are shooting and the button you press to do it in-game.

 

How we feel as we play is a different story, but that is more or less a simple fact of how its made, if you get me.

 

But that depends on the way choices are structured. 

 

It's OK to always have a Paragon option. It's not OK to always have the Paragon option work. (Do I need to unpack the whole argument here?)


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#269
Han Shot First

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Mass Effect 3 needed some sense of loss. It isn't enough to have a game set during the most destructive conflict in that game world's history, and then to have the impact of the war reflected merely in text or dialogue where you are told that so many millions died on this planet, or thousands of lives were lost in that space battle. Statistics don't carry emotional impact and that would be example of violating the basic storytelling rule of "Show, Don't Tell." 

 

On that note I think Bioware completely had the right idea in having some of those losses strike close to home, and having companions like Thane or Mordin be among the war's victims. If anything there probably needed be a little more of that, since outside of a Low EMS run Shepard doesn't really lose anyone in his or her immediate circle in Mass Effect 3. All the casualties are among people who aren't current companions.

 

You can totally have a lighter story where no one dies within the Mass Effect universe, but that story can't be set during a war that makes our two World Wars look like a minor border skirmish. Given the backdrop of the Reaper War, Bioware got the tone of ME3 right. 


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#270
txgoldrush

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Mass Effect 3 needed some sense of loss. It isn't enough to have a game set during the most destructive conflict in that game world's history, and then to have the impact of the war reflected merely in text or dialogue where you are told that so many millions died on this planet, or thousands of lives were lost in that space battle. Statistics don't carry emotional impact and that would be example of violating the basic storytelling rule of "Show, Don't Tell." 

 

On that note I think Bioware completely had the right idea in having some of those losses strike close to home, and having companions like Thane or Mordin be among the war's victims. If anything there probably needed be a little more of that, since outside of a Low EMS run Shepard doesn't really lose anyone in his or her immediate circle in Mass Effect 3. All the casualties are among people who aren't current companions.

 

You can totally have a lighter story where no one dies within the Mass Effect universe, but that story can't be set during a war that makes our two World Wars look like a minor border skirmish. Given the backdrop of the Reaper War, Bioware got the tone of ME3 right. 

Ummm...Tali.

 

Tali and Ashley/Kaiden can die before the final mission and Miranda is quite easily killed.

 

And really ME3 is the best in the trilogy at "show, don't tell". Bioware until then has used too many talking codexes and not enough plot action, this being ME1's major problem.



#271
txgoldrush

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Agreed, I did the mistake of playing Agent first and followed with a Jedi Consular which was sleep inducing. Just terrible, even if the Jedi Shadow which I picked was awesome the storyline killed it for me.

Wrong

 

Did you play past the first Chapter? Easily the best of the Republic stories and probably second best in the game.

 

And the writer of the Consular is on Mass Effect Andromeda.



#272
txgoldrush

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One of the enduring mysteries here is that things that worked fine in previous games somehow became awful when ME3 did them.

 

 

Well, it's only a mystery if you think that people here are intellectually honest.

This.....

 

In the Witcher games, Geralt fights bosses that beat him....Azar Javed with the Professor in TW1 and Letho in TW2 for example. Ciri isn't always successful fully defeating hers either in TW3.

 

Seath The Scaleless in Dark Souls.....



#273
txgoldrush

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Drew Karpyshyn is terribly overrated. he simply put, is better at writing novels than video games. He is a very lackluster character writer.

 

And no, ME3 has the best plot in the trilogy. Why? Because its the only game in the series that actually has plot structure as well as character development. Characters develop through time and through the PLOT, not because you talked to them three times and did them a favor. Events mold them just like the protagonist can. And ME1 has this problem of lore dumping, the whole plot was jumping from one lore dump to the next, only having real action once you get to Virmire. ME3 on the other hand only really lore dumps in two places....the ending and Leviathan with Vendetta lore dump being interrupted by plot action.

 

If Mac Walters has a flaw, is that under his direction, the game did not explain things clearly enough, which was the problem with the first ending, or more so this, that the game presents key info in out of the way places or in a subtle way. Walters likes to "show", not just "tell" unlike Karpyshyn.

 

And ME3's plot does make sense and to call it contrived, you would have to say the same for ME1.



#274
themikefest

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Tali and Ashley/Kaiden can die before the final mission and Miranda is quite easily killed.

So can a lot of others. Right?

 

Tali only dies if Shepard chooses the geth. Ashley/Kaidan die only if Shepard doesn't take the interrupt and not choose the dialogue on the left. Yes Miranda can easily die only if certain things aren't done.

 

Samara can shoot herself. Mordin can be shot or die when curing the genophage. Grunt can die if not loyal. Jack will die on Chronos if Grissom isn't completed. Jacob can die if the ex-Cerberus scientists mission isn't completed. Zaeed and Kasumi will die if not loyal.


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#275
Il Divo

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But that depends on the way choices are structured. 

 

It's OK to always have a Paragon option. It's not OK to always have the Paragon option work. (Do I need to unpack the whole argument here?)

 

Agreed. And that's a problem with how the morality system is laid out. Renegade functions by making a known sacrifice for a known gain. Paragon functions by taking the high road, with the hopes that everything plays out for the best.

But even looking at ME2's release, we had people on here insist that with ME3 they wanted a way to "save everyone". Sounds like a nice idea, but the only way that typically works is by having Paragaon, the method where you don't sacrifice anybody, always work out. Renegade gets shafted by default, in a sense, because somebody is already axed in order to get the beneficial outcome.