367 réponses à ce sujet

[themikefest]

I did a playthrough as a renegade with everyone alive. Ashley/Kaidan died on Virmire and the edibot got destroyed when I picked destroy. I didn't recruit Wrex, Thane or activate the geth.

[LinksOcarina]

But that depends on the way choices are structured. 

 

It's OK to always have a Paragon option. It's not OK to always have the Paragon option work. (Do I need to unpack the whole argument here?)

 

True, but now were going into a bunch of different directions on it then, we would have to deconstruct how the choices are handled in each scene then.

 

One quick example, Geth/Quarian conflict needs a perfect run to work out favorably for all sides. You need to pick a renegade option in Mass Effect 2, save one admiral over a bunch of Quarians in a side mission, and have the loyalty of two crew members while agreeing to broker peace, not to  mention them both being alive for that moment as well.

 

Even with paragon options that choice can go fubar in a minute if one of those conditions is not met. So again, it doesn't have to always work. We, as players tend to strive for perfection though so many of us never see it. 

 

I guess I tend to look at it as a whole; really, even being beneficial here has drawbacks because it doesn't always work.

[AlanC9]

One quick example, Geth/Quarian conflict needs a perfect run to work out favorably for all sides. You need to pick a renegade option in Mass Effect 2, save one admiral over a bunch of Quarians in a side mission, and have the loyalty of two crew members while agreeing to broker peace, not to  mention them both being alive for that moment as well.

 
This isn't quite correct. There are two possible ME2 Renegade options, right? Heretics and Tali's trial. The trial choice can be bypassed with Paragon options earlier to enable the "rally the crowd" option (or just one Paragon option and a good combat performance on Haestrom), or by passing a not-very-dificult dialogue check. Any Shepard who's consistently Paragon will pass any dialogue check, though this is really a problem with the way ME2 handles the checks.

Still counts as a counter-example, though, since making all Paragon choices in ME2 will require saving Koris rather than his crew, and IIRC saving Koris is framed as the Renegade option.

[CronoDragoon]

The P/R system is too iconic to dump. The good news is that it's very easy to fix. As Alan said, you just treat it as another grey option when it comes to whether it works or not on whoever you're talking to. It would still have value as bonus dialogue options only accessible if you've accumulated the points for it. In other words, you role-play yourself into a character who would say those things. Hell, you could even have extra dialogue options for people who pick middle options most; a sort of bonus "Negotiator" option that would function similarly to Inquisition's Clever options. That too, would only work depending on the context, as a character could get angry that you're trying to play both sides or something like that.

[Gothfather]

Ummm...Tali.

 

Tali and Ashley/Kaiden can die before the final mission and Miranda is quite easily killed.

 

And really ME3 is the best in the trilogy at "show, don't tell". Bioware until then has used too many talking codexes and not enough plot action, this being ME1's major problem.

 

 

So can a lot of others. Right?

 

Tali only dies if Shepard chooses the geth. Ashley/Kaidan die only if Shepard doesn't take the interrupt and not choose the dialogue on the left. Yes Miranda can easily die only if certain things aren't done.

 

Samara can shoot herself. Mordin can be shot or die when curing the genophage. Grunt can die if not loyal. Jack will die on Chronos if Grissom isn't completed. Jacob can die if the ex-Cerberus scientists mission isn't completed. Zaeed and Kasumi will die if not loyal.

 

The problem wasn't that there CAN be loss in ME3 the problem is that almost all the loss is Ex members of your crew.

 

Mordin - ex member scripted to die reapers have nothing to do with this

Thane - ex member scripted to die reapers have nothing to do with this

Legion - ex member scripted to die again reapers don't kill legion

 

Tali - you can choose to side with the geth but again reapers are utterly ineffectual against Shepard and his crew.

 

Ashley/Kadian - can die but you have to let them die, as any normal game play will build up enough trust with them to believe you. Which means they can die but you actively have to choose not to save them. Not really a decent frame work for a choice.

 

Grunt, Zaeed, Kasumi again are all Ex members of your crew and it is all tied to the suicide mission that has mechanics that are so silly that if you play the game once and are paying attention you know exactly what to do the second time around to get a cost free victory. Which means the chances of any of these characters dying is slim to none. especially as the SM has scripted non loyal casualty events in it so you have to deliberately have multiple people in ME2 not be loyal for any of these characters to survive to Me3. And the whole structure of Me2 is recruit your crew and deal with their daddy issues, so it is very easy to get results that these deaths never happen.

 

Miranda - I am not sure what the death events are for her but I have yet to trigger them. people tell me it is easy but I find her surviving is easy. It might be my play style is x which just happens to line up with the triggers to keep her alive perfectly so I never seem to have a dead Miranda

 

 

The common theme to the above is all the deaths are either easily avoidable or scripted to die. None of your direct actions cause anyone to die in your crew, ie no virmire style choices, and it doesn't have to be a binary choice. I think only Grunt ever dies directly from the reapers and only if he's not loyal and he's not a member of your crew.

 

The reapers are surprisingly inept against Shepard and the crew of the Normandy sr-2. It is possible to go through ME2/3 post prologue with only three deaths and none of them an active squadmate and none because of the reapers. And it is not hard to get this result because you are encouraged to "invest" in personality and in so doing you get the "I win" button. It isn't a series of intricate, Byzantine moves that allows you to achieve this result. The result is simplistic in execution. And looking Miranda in a google search re her death there is only one thing you need to do to save her, research kai before talking to her and poof she lives. not really all that tough and it explains why I succeed always. I am more interested in the game at hand then the cameos of past companions.

 

We should of had situations where the reapers killed members of the crew and companions. There should have been mission where we failed period against the reapers and someone dies. No one suffers the indignity of death either. All the deaths are over the top heroic, no one just dies doing their job. One of the things that Me2 did right in the SM with the companions deaths is many are not heroic. They get killed when a component in the ship explodes, they are helping to close doors and a stray shot kills them. These were well crafted deaths. But Thane, Mordin and legion are like could you be any more melodramatic? Sure there is a place for them but all the scripted deaths? 

 

There should have been "random" deaths where one companion on mission X will die but even the game doesn't know which. There should have been virmire style deaths. DA:I had a good death  scene in the fade. It would have been better if they had the courage to make the choice between companions vs an ex protagonist and either an throw away NPC or an ex companion. Again its a Binary choice which this kind of choice doesn't have to be you can expand it beyond two. There is room for preventable deaths like we saw and room for scripted deaths of a specific character as well. There should be UNAVOIDABLE loss that is a direct result of the reapers kicking your ass.

 

The fact that you can EASILY go through the game and not lose anyone stationed on the SR-2 through two games is crazy. And those that will die die because of everything but the reapers.

[Maniccc]

I never liked Drew as a writer.  But then, I think all of Bioware's writing staff is meh.

[themikefest]

The problem wasn't that there CAN be loss in ME3 the problem is that almost all the loss is Ex members of your crew.

True, though that comment isn't true in one of my playthroughs since I had all ex members alive, Thane wasn't recruited and the geth was sent to Cerberus, and the current members dead. Good playthrough. I might to it again.

[Gothfather]

Kai Leng killing Thane.  There's no reason Thane had to fight him directly, rather than sniping him, much like there's no reason Shep loses to him in the Asari temple, except plot armor.  When you do finally kill him it's no challenge whatsoever.

 

But that isn't a valid example. Kai Leng's sword can easily kill the player in a few hits, on insanity difficulty at least.

 

Kai Leng is not a super unbeatable mook. He is a boss fight that can mechanically kill you quickly so having a companion die seems utterly consistent with the mechanics of this character and combat. How is this an example of a simple gun or simple mook killing off a character violating the mechanics of the game? Thane is dying and weaker than normal so not sure how Kai killing him violates the established mechanics.

 

And as I recall Thane's actions were driven to save the council member vs assassinate kai Leng. I'm not even sure Thane knew who he would encounter in the fight and didn't have access to his normal "tools of the trade," so how is this a good example?

[Gothfather]

True, though that comment isn't true in one of my playthroughs since I had all ex members alive, Thane wasn't recruited and the geth was sent to Cerberus, and the current members dead. Good playthrough. I might to it again.

 

Lol that is so funny! So it is possible to have even less loss in the ME series by sending legion to Cerberus and not recruiting Thane. I did not know you could bypass recruiting any of the base companions in Me2.

[themikefest]

Lol that is so funny! So it is possible to have even less loss in the ME series by sending legion to Cerberus and not recruiting Thane. I did not know you could bypass recruiting any of the base companions in Me2.

Samara, Tali, Thane and geth don't have to be recruited, but to have everyone survive the suicide mission, Tali has to be recruited since she has the shield upgrade for the SR2. I would add that Grunt can stay in the tank and Zaeed and Kasumi don't have to be recruited. Just need 8 squadmates to use the Omega 4 relay

 

I did a playthrough with only 2 squadmates lost at the end of ME3. Ashley/Kaidan on Virmire and the edibot when I picked destroy. I didn't recruit Wrex, Thane and didn't activate the geth

[Gothfather]

The P/R system is too iconic to dump. The good news is that it's very easy to fix. As Alan said, you just treat it as another grey option when it comes to whether it works or not on whoever you're talking to. It would still have value as bonus dialogue options only accessible if you've accumulated the points for it. In other words, you role-play yourself into a character who would say those things. Hell, you could even have extra dialogue options for people who pick middle options most; a sort of bonus "Negotiator" option that would function similarly to Inquisition's Clever options. That too, would only work depending on the context, as a character could get angry that you're trying to play both sides or something like that.

 

I agree the failure of the P/R system was not that it acted as a gateway to content but rather that it created the "I win" button. I think gating success or failure to the system was where if fails as a morality system and then it just becomes a mechanic with a metric that gives me victory if my metric is above X. Yet your example eliminates the mechanics of system and instead creates a narrative gate for various dialogue options which encourages re-playability. 

 

I am very much in favour of a morality system that gates dialogue options but not the success or failure of said options being tied to them. So if the approach for success is a paragon approach you succeed with either a standard or gated paragon option and you'd fail with the normal or gated renegade choice. Some encounters should require a measured response and some a renegade response. Success of some situation should require a specific approach and in other any approach works but the results vary. This means that role playing gates content, being all in to one personality gates content and this allows for more nuanced interactions.

 

I would even say that some success could be tied to the gated morality options but they should be the EXCEPTION not the rule. This could create situations where you can't win every argument and every encounter because you followed a guide that told you when to pick paragon, middle of the road/measured response and the renegade for each situation to always win. You can't always win because some choices require you have strong X morality and you can't reach that by swaying back and forth. But Again this should be SPARINGLY used. I would also have events where if you are too paragon or too renegade you fail as well to encourage people to play a character who straddles both.

 

If there is no path to total success, then we get a more nuanced story and a more re-playable game which I feel is a win win.

[Gothfather]

Samara, Tali, Thane and geth don't have to be recruited, but to have everyone survive the suicide mission, Tali has to be recruited since she has the shield upgrade for the SR2.

 

I did a playthrough with only 2 squadmates lost at the end of ME3. Ashley/Kaidan on Virmire and the edibot when I picked destroy. I didn't recruit Wrex, Thane and didn't activate the geth

 

So you convinced Mordin to not cure the genophage which saves him. And the other two are not around so they can't die on screen

 

Granted it requires that you give up content in the three games but that is an example of the strength of variance to the possible outcomes.

 

And if you picked control you could have had one companion death period. Oh god that is so cool yet so sad the reapers were that ineffectual. hahaha

[AlanC9]

Does it matter how we get the "I win" button? In other systems (DA:O, any D&D 3.0/3.5 game, etc.) you get a win button from skills, not from morality, but it's still a win button.

[Savber100]

Honestly...

 

Drew is an overrated writer. 

 

You got to be somewhat decent to be overrated. 

That's what I have noticed anyway. 

[dreamgazer]

Does it matter how we get the "I win" button? In other systems (DA:O, any D&D 3.0/3.5 game, etc.) you get a win button from skills, not from morality, but it's still a win button.

I think it does, to a degree, because it encourages a moral bias to obtain said "I win" button of a certain color, which impacts the role-playing experience. That's a big problem in ME2.

[dreamgazer]

You got to be somewhat decent to be overrated. 

That's what I have noticed anyway.

Nah, you just need someone with a lower approval rating than you for comparison.

[Savber100]

Nah, you just need someone with a lower approval rating than you for comparison.

 
True. 

But I generally find that if you're overrated, you did something right to please a majority of people with a vocal minority trying to pull him down a peg. (Who is right is ultimately relative.)

Basically a Uwe Boll or an Ed Wood will rarely be deemed overrated by anyone.

[themikefest]

And if you picked control you could have had one companion death period. Oh god that is so cool yet so sad the reapers were that ineffectual. hahaha

For someone who picks control or synthesis that is true.

 

For me I always pick destroy

[LinksOcarina]

You got to be somewhat decent to be overrated. 

That's what I have noticed anyway. 

 

Not really important though in the grand scheme of things, but fair enough.

[Han Shot First]

Ummm...Tali.

 

Tali and Ashley/Kaiden can die before the final mission and Miranda is quite easily killed.

 

And really ME3 is the best in the trilogy at "show, don't tell". Bioware until then has used too many talking codexes and not enough plot action, this being ME1's major problem.

 

Tali and Ashley or Kaidan are optional. I didn't include them because the scenario where they could die wasn't quite like Virmire in ME1, where there is an unavoidable casualty. Both had more in common with the casualties on the Suicide Mission, where deaths only occur if the protagonist makes mistakes.

[LinksOcarina]

Tali and Ashley or Kaidan are optional. I didn't include them because the scenario where they could die wasn't quite like Virmire in ME1, where there is an unavoidable casualty. Both had more in common with the casualties on the Suicide Mission, where deaths only occur if the protagonist makes mistakes.

 

So did anyone ever complain about those deaths of Kaiden/Ashley?

 

I remember for Dragon Age II there were complaints over the deaths of Hawkes siblings. Curious to see if that is a reason for not making a mandatory sacrifice.

[AlanC9]

I remember complaints about the mechanics of it, but not the choice itself.

[LinksOcarina]

I remember complaints about the mechanics of it, but not the choice itself.

 

Well that still answers the question though, changing up the framework of the mechanics to prevent the choice.

 

Unless you mean the choice was not made clear or something like that, which I guess is also true, but it is also why it was a poignant moment, it catches you off guard.

[JamesFaith]

So did anyone ever complain about those deaths of Kaiden/Ashley?

 

I remember for Dragon Age II there were complaints over the deaths of Hawkes siblings. Curious to see if that is a reason for not making a mandatory sacrifice.

 

I vaguely remember one girl who called it murder and made thread about it, but it is few years and I never see such thread again.

[Gothfather]

So did anyone ever complain about those deaths of Kaiden/Ashley?

 

I remember for Dragon Age II there were complaints over the deaths of Hawkes siblings. Curious to see if that is a reason for not making a mandatory sacrifice.

I recall some players up set that you couldn't save both but it was a very small minority in my mind but it might have loomed larger in the minds of Bioware's staff as there was some up roar over it being a forced death. I do recall people assuming that there was a path to saving them both until someone broke it down showing that there was zero chance to save both.

 

This is what i recall but it is years ago and I can't trust my memory to be 100% accurate and i'm not conflating other topics on the BSN.

 

 

 

Well that still answers the question though, changing up the framework of the mechanics to prevent the choice.

 

Unless you mean the choice was not made clear or something like that, which I guess is also true, but it is also why it was a poignant moment, it catches you off guard.

 

The set up for the choice isn't clear. When you choose who will lead the feint and who will arm the bomb you have no idea this is creating the stage for the choice. But it is pretty clear that you can only save one when the feint runs into trouble and on your way there you get a call that the bomb's location is being over run and you are told do you press on and return to the bomb.

 

I had no illusions about what was going on. It seemed pretty clear I could only help one or the other. You were not told up front at this point who you don't help dies but I don't think that was required. You knew that you can't help both so who do you help? if people felt betrayed it was because they ASSUMED there was no jeopardy.  Which I would argue MIGHT be a valid point if this was the third game in the series and there was no Virmire style choice previously in the other two games but this was the first game there was nothing that suggested there was zero jeopardy. At least not for me. I don't recall being shocked that this happened.