367 réponses à ce sujet

[MrFob]

It's nice that he's back but I am not so interested in SWTOR (don't play MMOs). I doubt he'll return to Mass Effect anytime soon. Besides, the man we really need back is Chris L'Etoille.

[dreamgazer]

And the only part of that idea that was adapted was Shepard becoming a cyborg.

And dying and surviving, the crux of that post.
 

It was done in probably the least creative manner possible, and becoming a "bridge" between organics and synthetics played zero part of ME2 or ME3 until Starchild brings up the Green "organic energy" nonsense.

 
Look no further than ME1 for the first reference to that kind of thing: the Cipher, the "very essence of being a Prothean".
 

And people say Dark Energy is worse 

Indeed. Haven't seen a convincing counterpoint to that, either.

[Messi Kossmann]

No, he's not woking in SWTOR. He's working in a new Star Wars games. Just wait...

[dreamgazer]

No, Largely because of "Cyncisim". You're completely failing to analyze my argument and how it relates to the bigger picture by sticking close to your little picture that you created for youself and keep clinging to it. Organics vs Synthetics is of course a theme, It's has been since the ME franchise started, How to solve that conflict is a theme and Synthesis is something i wanted them to do for a long time, Just not this way. The primary problem with the ending is the Starkid. And the shift in narrative, Not the the "Theme".

Actually, it's because you haven't said a single thing refuting the fundamental problems emphasized by Dean and myself, instead side-tracking with how it "feels".

[Nitrocuban]

OMGOMOMG

[dreamgazer]

That's because you don't understand how concept creation works. You don't understand a thing about creative projects or how they work.

Ah, resorting to ad hominem assumptions instead of actually discussing the point.
 

Simplifying what i said to how it "Feels" is the perfect example of that.

It's precisely what you said, though.
 

As i have stated before in other threads, Judging a preliminarily concept in detail is a faulty approach. Judging how well the concept implements into the franchise and whether it "Feels" right is the right way to approach preliminarily concepts.

 

And it's really common on the forums here, People jumping down the Devs' throats because of faulty understanding and wanting to look smart while they're the definition of cyncisim.

You still haven't told me why our understanding of the fundamentally broken dark energy concept is "faulty".

[dreamgazer]

If you really wanted an argument, You'd have actually read and analyzed my posts.

I read them. All points still stand.
 

But you don't understand that I'm telling you that you're looking at it all wrong

Why?
 

The angle you're looking from is short-sighted.

It's because the problems are very plain to see and fundamentally break the concept.
 

But then you keep back-pedaling to say how "Illogical" the dark energy concept is.

I haven't backpedaled on anything. You're not actually addressing anything stated.
 

So, The short version, The only thing i learned from this forums is to avoid arguing with that sort of mentality because you don't change your mind no matter what and you keep clinging to your pre-established ideas. Last i checked that's called "Cyncisim".

You haven't said anything to change my mind.

[Zekka]

Drew is better than Mac though

[Iakus]

And dying and surviving, the crux of that post.
 
 
Look no further than ME1 for the first reference to that kind of thing: the Cipher, the "very essence of being a Prothean".
 

Indeed. Haven't seen a convincing counterpoint to that, either.

ACtually, I was going by the quote you gave:

 

 

"There was some ideas that maybe Shepard gets his essence transferred into some kind of machine, becoming a cyborg and becoming a bridge between synthetics and organics - which is a theme that does play up in the game," Karpyshyn concluded. "At one point we thought, maybe that's how he survives into Mass Effect 2.

Not about Shepard dying, but SHepard surviving.  I know they like to compare Mass Effect to Deus Ex, but Jensen didn't die before becoming augmented.  He was augmented to keep him from dying.  Bioware got it bass ackwards here.

 

And the Cipher has absolutely nothing to do with organic-synthetic bridging, no matter how much you like to cram it into every fault the game has.  

 

I'm not saying it's bad.  Or good.  I'm saying that conceptually it's no worse than the nonsense we actually got.

[dreamgazer]

I'm not even explaining the dark energy concept to you, That's not even up to me, I wouldn't have the knowledge to fully explore it.

I think you need to explore it a tad further than you already have, because you don't see the very evident problem it already poses. Or you're just choosing to ignore it because Drew.
 

What I'm trying to tell you is a mechanism, A concept creation mechanism that sails every time over your head without you understanding a thing about it. That mechanism explains why the concept has flaws,  And why the end results would have been different.

The word you're looking for is "exposition", and you still haven't provided a response to the problems laid out for you about the concept.

Why would the Reapers perpetuate and encourage the use of technology that's actively destroying the galaxy, the reason for the genocidal cycles?
 

You're reading but you're just not analyzing or understanding. Huge difference.

Please don't tell me I'm not analyzing or understanding your posts. They aren't difficult to decipher.

[dreamgazer]

ACtually, I was going by the quote you gave:
 
Not about Shepard dying, but SHepard surviving.  I know they like to compare Mass Effect to Deus Ex, but Jensen didn't die before becoming augmented.  He was augmented to keep him from dying.  Bioware got it bass ackwards here.

Karpyshyn's comment very clearly shows that he was relying on a Shepard (near-)death incident at the beginning of ME2 that would eat up time (into "Ah yes, Reapers" territory) through some kind of high-dollar scientific nonsense project. If you'd like to headcanon that Walters altered Karpyshyn's work to a resurrected-by-Cerberus situation, be my guest. Fundamentals are the same.
 

And the Cipher has absolutely nothing to do with organic-synthetic bridging, no matter how much you like to cram it into every fault the game has.

It has everything to do with the idea of "organic energy" being prevalent in the series from the very beginning, something you complain about every chance you get.
 

I'm not saying it's bad.  Or good.  I'm saying that conceptually it's no worse than the nonsense we actually got.

Conceptually, it is indeed worse, for reasons already pointed out and others involving the issues people have endlessly complained about (space magic, Reaper good guys, circular logic, and others).

[Andrew Lucas]

No kidding, he co-wrote the narrative trainwreck that was ME2 that destroyed the entire overarching plot of the trilogy.

Dramatic, I like it.

[Massa FX]

I like Drew. Welcome back!

[dreamgazer]

*Facepalm* How many times am i going to tell you that I'm not even attempting to explain or rather explore a pre-alpha concept that even its creator said that it's really not at its full might and readiness yet? Even if i did, I don't have the knowledge to do so. What I'm trying to say, Again, Is something that's sailing over your head because you like criticizing everything so much. And just for your information everything my argument has to offer has already been said. You want to understand and analyze, Be my guest. You don't? Your problem, Not mine. But let's attempt a final try because well, Why not? And you might actually understand it this time. A concept when it's first created is like a cocoon, It has a lot potential but it hasn't reached it yet, You sense that potential and then develop it step by step. Same case here, First they had a concept, Then they changed it, "Developed" it, Then they were going to propely develop it further when the time comes. It's just that they have laid the ground work there, The decisions that decide the flow of the story might change the pacing and narrative and therefore the concept will need to evolve further. So, As i said, They laid the ground work and left it there. Now because you're unfamiliar with this process, You'd consider a preliminarily as something that's fully fleshed out and start to criticize it as a fully developed concept which is a very faulty approach. It's like saying: "Man, This game is buggy as hell." after seeing the Pre-alpha footage of the game. Exactly the same concept and idea.

Sometimes cocoons produce butterflies. Sometime cocoons produce moths. And sometimes, caterpillars have an observable disease or weakness that prevents them from doing either one. That disease is what was pointed out to you earlier in the thread.

You do realize dark energy was one of several ending ideas considered, right? You do realize everything from Drew's mind isn't a butterfly, right?

Again, I'm perfectly familiar with the creative process. I don't appreciate the condescending tone of your comments suggesting otherwise.

[Il Divo]

Conceptually, it is indeed worse, for reasons already pointed out and others involving the issues people have endlessly complained about (space magic, Reaper good guys, circular logic, and others).

 

It's hard to be worse than the Organic-Synthetic conflict. Problem that scenario runs into is that Bioware did everything they could to shove the "We can all get along" point down our throats. There's no ME3 where I can murder EDI and proclaim my distrust of all things AI.

 

Synthetic-Organic conflict could have worked as a Reaper motive, if like Deus Ex, Bioware had kept trying to keep the perspectives balanced. Hell, if they'd gone with DA2's approach to Mages vs Templars, it might have worked. Instead, they tacked on Deus Ex's endings to a series that was never interested in exploring Deus Ex's conflicts to any meaningful extent.

 

Dark energy has a number of advantages, one being that it doesn't outright contradict one of the themes that Bioware has continuously emphasized since ME2 onwards. Of course, that also depends on whether Karpshyn would have included the organic-synthetic conflict in his dark energy plot. If so, we're back to square one.

[Derrame]

Drew Karpyshyn is the only one that can take Mass Effect to its former glory and awesomeness. The best new ever for ME:A  

[Iakus]

Karpyshyn's comment very clearly shows that he was relying on a Shepard (near-)death incident at the beginning of ME2 that would eat up time (into "Ah yes, Reapers" territory) through some kind of high-dollar scientific nonsense project. If you'd like to headcanon that Walters altered Karpyshyn's work to a resurrected-by-Cerberus situation, be my guest. Fundamentals are the same.
 

And there's a world of difference between a "near-death incident" and a "death incident".  Shepard didn't even get a trip to Tahiti out of this!

 

 

 

It has everything to do with the idea of "organic energy" being prevalent in the series from the very beginning, something you complain about every chance you get.

 

And what does organic energy have to do with Shepard being a cyborg?

 

 

Conceptually, it is indeed worse, for reasons already pointed out and others involving the issues people have endlessly complained about (space magic, Reaper good guys, circular logic, and others).

The big difference I see is one got implemented and the other didn't

[Iakus]

It's hard to be worse than the Organic-Synthetic conflict. Problem that scenario runs into is that Bioware did everything they could to shove the "We can all get along" point down our throats. There's no ME3 where I can murder EDI and proclaim my distrust of all things AI.

 

Synthetic-Organic conflict could have worked as a Reaper motive, if like Deus Ex, Bioware had kept trying to keep the perspectives balanced. Hell, if they'd gone with DA2's approach to Mages vs Templars, it might have worked. Instead, they tacked on Deus Ex's endings to a series that was never interested in exploring Deus Ex's conflicts to any meaningful extent.

 

Dark energy has a number of advantages, one being that it doesn't outright contradict one of the themes that Bioware has continuously emphasized since ME2 onwards. Of course, that also depends on whether Karpshyn would have included the organic-synthetic conflict in his dark energy plot. If so, we're back to square one.

 

Organic/synthetic conflict would have worked better if it had been a consistent theme throughout the trilogy.  As it is, the Reapers being synthetic was more coincidental than anything else.  And in ME2, we learn they're not even entirely synthetic!

 

Dark energy at least had a couple of bits of foreshadowing in ME2.  Though the concept was never fleshed out enough to give a meaningful verdict on how it would have gone.

[Il Divo]

Organic/synthetic conflict would have worked better if it had been a consistent theme throughout the trilogy.  As it is, the Reapers being synthetic was more coincidental than anything else.  And in ME2, we learn they're not even entirely synthetic!

 

Dark energy at least had a couple of bits of foreshadowing in ME2.  Though the concept was never fleshed out enough to give a meaningful verdict on how it would have gone.

 

Agreed. The way I look at it? We could use the ME1 Rachni Conflict as a template. Before the sequels, the big moral decision on Noveria was "Can we trust the Rachni? and why?". The synthetic conflict, conceptually, worked the same way.

 

It's a fair question. But any fair reading of ME2 or 3 doesn't really provoke the question of whether we can trust these guys. For ME3's ending to have been effective (at least as a Reaper motive), Bioware would have had to keep that conflict alive.