26 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

So there's this guy in skyhold courtyard who goes on racist rants about how the elves are behind everything and have this big conspiracy. I assume from the light tone of the dialogue he's intended to evoke the "Aliens" guy rather than anything heavy, but he's still a racist jerk.

And he's totally correct. Not just kind of has a point, we've got a major conspiracy of elves who are behind everything, and they are in fact planning to destroy the world more or less. That.. bugs me. Fictional worlds where it turns out the racists had a point all along are a bit awkward.

I mean, the elves have tended to stand in for oppressed peoples of various types. And this sort of thing has been used as excuses for that oppression, particularly of Jews, who the elves often seem to take particular inspiration from, what with living in what are essentially ghettoes and having a promised land that was taken away from them and stuff.

Now of course in Trespasser, this sinister conspiracy isn't the only role for the elves. They also get to be terrorist infiltrators, for the sort-of-analogous-to-Islam-even-if-they-don't-have-any-doctrinal-similarities Qunari. So the ones who aren't in a sinister conspiracy to destroy the world are kind of islamic terrorists.

Of course we've got another elf there, Sera, who is basically sympathetic and positive. She rejects elven culture of any type and condemns any elf who doesn't.

I don't want to get too heavy on that, since Trespasser is a very narrow shapshot, and there are other sympathetic elves in DAI, even if they're not very prominent.

And... I'm not really sure if I've got much of a point here. I mean, I don't want Bioware to not deal with interesting plots just because they can be read in odd ways with regards to real life, and I don't think Elves should be immune to being the baddies just because they're treated like crap in Thedas. I guess I'd just like to see some stuff going on where elves - ones who don't use elfy as a pejorative - are the goodies if we're going to be pushing on with the elf conspiracy as seems likely.

And I guess I'd quite like to be persuaded I'm being silly and finding things that don't exist here. Like, I've just remembered that Charter is present in Trespasser and she's an elf and not a bad guy, even if I don't recall her saying anything. If people can point out other problems with my thinking, that'd be great.

[Serza]

The ancient Elves claim we are not of the Elvhen.

 

Thus, they are not our people. Any sane ones will not support Pride.

 

'Tis how I see this.

 

 

 

And... damn. It never clicked to me how similar Elves were to Jews, but... yeah. There's a similarity or two there. Not sure if they mean anything, but yes.

[actionhero112]

Honestly this is why I hate playing as an elf. The whole "woe is me, our culture has lost so much and we're so oppressed" doesn't speak to me. Get enough of that in real life seeing my family, why would I want to roleplay that in a game. 

 

Especially when I see people say crap like their inquisitor is a racist elf and screw the shems and I'm just like... why would you do that? Maybe I just don't get the fun of being intolerant. 

[Wahed89]

I literally was just about to write the same post (well it had the same concern about reinforcing stereotypes it's always trying to say are wrong). I deleted it because I saw this.

[QueenCrow]

I guess the only thing I'd point on in your thinking that might be problematic is the Islam comparison. Perhaps change that the Islamic terrorist thing to fundamentalist of any religion or culture who is willing to resort to violence and/or terror. And I can't think of any developed culture who doesn't have them or has never had them.

 

On the rest, I'm sorry, but can be of no help.  I, too, came away from Trespasser feeling anti-Solas, anti-elf, anti-mage...and I usually play super-elfy, tree-hugging, racial equality-advocating, mages-deserve-to-be-free (90% of the time I play elven mages), kum-ba-ya singing agnostics, and “can’t we all get along?” types.

 

Now I'm feeling as if a super-hardened, verging on sadistic, purge the alienage, templar might be worth a try just to get this funky Trespasser taste out of my mouth.

 

Good luck to you working it out!

[Wahed89]

I don't think it deals well with stereotypes. It's trying to teach us it's wrong to be racist, while at the same time enforcing stereotypes and constantly giving people a reason to agree with the "racist" point of view. The same thing happened with DA2 and the mages. You're always trying to side with the mages having freedom from the clear oppression they suffer, and every time they do they turn into a blood Mage or a terrorist.

I get that they are trying to create a morally ambiguous world to let people make their own choices, but being born elf/Mage/Qunari/dwarven are not morals, they are not behaviours they are a state of being.

Not surprisingly the game deals with human stereotypes much better.

The game should therefore not be using race as a point of ambiguity. There should be no question about whether being racist is right or wrong. Sadly in Dragon Age they constantly legitimise racist or anti-Mage points of view.

[Serza]

UGH TOO REAL-LIFEY.

 

I play DA to NOT remind myself of how stuff is in real life, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

 

Did you really have to continue on that note?

[diaspora2k5]

The idea of people following a guy named Pride in elvhen to kill everyone to restore an old glory is crudely poetic.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Groups rarely move in lockstep, so I doubt the disparate groups of city elves, Dalish, and ancient elves are all simply going to get along and work together. I think they (they being Bioware) will play it out so that elves split into factions, with some following Solas to bring back the mythical past, and others rejecting his intentions and looking instead to creating a better future for themselves out of the chaos that his actions will unleash.

[Nixou]

I don't think it deals well with stereotypes. It's trying to teach us it's wrong to be racist, while at the same time enforcing stereotypes and constantly giving people a reason to agree with the "racist" point of view. The same thing happened with DA2 and the mages. You're always trying to side with the mages having freedom from the clear oppression they suffer, and every time they do they turn into a blood Mage or a terrorist.

 

 

The series is less about stereotypes and more about how self-fulfilling prophecies.

 

When it comes to Elves (or Mages), Humans (or Muggles) In Thedas seem to apply the same insane troll logic G.K. Chesterton applied to Jews

 

• We oppressed Jews, and that's wrong
• But now Jews have valid reasons to want to exact revenge upon the Christians who treated them like ****
• Therefore we must continue to oppress Jews, so they're never allowed to prosper and become strong enough to exact the revenge that deep down we all know we deserve but don't want to suffer from

 

Likewise: Humans (or Muggles), being convinced that the Elves (or Mages) secretly desire to exact a bloody retaliation on the whole Human race (or Muggledom) as payback for centuries of mistreatment decide to keep mistreating and disenfranchising them (to keep them too weak to retaliate: a bully's logic), thus increasing the anger and susceptibility to revanchist rhetoric that's been welling up below the surface, until, predictably, many decide to work for the Dread Wolf's apocalyptic cult (or adhere to Anders' manifesto) out of sheer spite.

[SwobyJ]

I don't think it deals well with stereotypes. It's trying to teach us it's wrong to be racist, while at the same time enforcing stereotypes and constantly giving people a reason to agree with the "racist" point of view. The same thing happened with DA2 and the mages. You're always trying to side with the mages having freedom from the clear oppression they suffer, and every time they do they turn into a blood Mage or a terrorist.

I get that they are trying to create a morally ambiguous world to let people make their own choices, but being born elf/Mage/Qunari/dwarven are not morals, they are not behaviours they are a state of being.

Not surprisingly the game deals with human stereotypes much better.

The game should therefore not be using race as a point of ambiguity. There should be no question about whether being racist is right or wrong. Sadly in Dragon Age they constantly legitimise racist or anti-Mage points of view.

 

Or maybe you need to be narratively coddled in order to not consider these views as legitimate.

 

Stereotypes exist for a reason. Not often a good reason, but a reason. And we can still rise above them. But they're going to exist and they're going to have evidence that create and support them. Whether we like that or not, prejudice itself (perhaps borne from survival necessity) is natural until proven otherwise.

[SwobyJ]

 

The series is less about stereotypes and more about how self-fulfilling prophecies.

 

When it comes to Elves (or Mages), Humans (or Muggles) In Thedas seem to apply the same insane troll logic G.K. Chesterton applied to Jews

 

• We oppressed Jews, and that's wrong
• But now Jews have valid reasons to want to exact revenge upon the Christians who treated them like ****
• Therefore we must continue to oppress Jews, so they're never allowed to prosper and become strong enough to exact the revenge that deep down we all now we deserve but don't want to suffer from

 

Likewise: Humans (or Muggles), being convinced that the Elves (or Mages) secretly desire to exact a bloody retaliation on the whole Human race (or Muggledom) as payback for centuries of mistreatment decide to keep mistreating and disenfranchising them (to keep them too weak to retaliate: a bully's logic), thus increasing the anger and susceptibility to revanchist rhetoric that's been welling up below the surface, until, predictably, many decide to work for the Dread Wolf's apocalyptic cult (or adhere to Anders' manifesto) out of sheer spite.

 

 

This ^^^^

 

And even then, its not all elves. Its a segment of them. Various factions exist. Those who go 'all those damn elves' are still wrong. And continue to be wrong. Its always more complicated than that. Sure, they recognize a threat. Then advance to missing all nuance. Sadly.

[rapscallioness]

Honestly, I came away feeling more anti-Evanuris. This is also not a human vs elf thing. This has the potential to hurt humans, dwarves, qunari, dalish elves, city elves-not all are leaving to join Solas.

 

My feelings were more along the lines of worry for these elves that were going off. I'm not sure if this is gonna work out the way they think it's gonna work. Idk what's going on, but I don't have a good feeling. I'm a little worried for them.

 

These Evanuris have played Thedas like a fiddle. All of us. Including the elves. And I'm hopping mad about it!

 

Besides which, I don't think the elves are mounting a sabotage against the power structures of Thedas. Solas has no need of that, otherwise he would have let the Qunari rampage. I think they're just disappearing until the Veil comes down.

 

I see it as more akin to the Christian idea of Rapture. Where people--chosen ones--just start disappearing before the end times.

 

The Evanuris took advantage of the elves of Thedas, too.They were not nice.  Annnd I'm not entirely sure the Evanuris are "elfy" elves...as in I'm not entirely sure they are what they seem.

 

The Qunari have always used both elves and humans as infiltrators for obvious reasons.

 

It's not really the elves that are doing this. Heck, tbh, it's not even the Evanuris-even they're a crazy bunch of elitist jerks that seem to take whatever they want without regard for anything--it's Solas with this grand plan.

 

And I thought Ameridan was pretty badazz...just saying

 

The people of Thedas, though, don't know what you know. The Inquisitor has some very occult, very secret knowledge on their hands. This is not known. And it is so much bigger than the elves. This may just be the beginning and impact/involve more belief systems and worldviews than the elven pantheon. The people of Thedas just see alot of elves disappearing. They probably think they found some land and are going to try to establish nation again. Although, I don't think concerned parties will ever be able to find the missing elves.

 

Maybe we will one day. We might have to bail them out if things get too weird.

 

My 2 cents at any rate.

[Lady Nuggins]

Honestly, we have a group of people (not just elves, but specifically the city elves and servants) who have been historically crapped on by every single other race and class in the world, and suddenly a literal god walks out of the Fade and offers to lead them? Of course they're following Solas. I doubt they know what he actually plans to do or why. I'm certain he is manipulating them and their belief in him just as he manipulated the Inquisition. But who can really blame them for following him?

 

In DA2, everywhere you turned, there were blood mages and abominations, but that didn't make mages any less obviously oppressed. What I take from this isn't "the racists were right" but in fact, "if you heap prejudice against someone long enough, don't be surprised if they start fighting back." 

[Klinker1234]

The way I see this, the elven uprising/team-elf-vs-the-world would have happend regardless of Solas Interference. Briala was doing something similar with the eluvians before anyhow. Starting an elven uprising using ancient elvhen magics and such. Solas is simply using millennia of oppression to further his plan to tear down the veil.

 

 

The idea of people following a guy named Pride in elvhen to kill everyone to restore an old glory is crudely poetic.

 

That is actually quite funny, Solas should have spent more time with the Irony Spirits in the fade.

 

Still Trespasser made sure that I will be very suspiscious of any elves I meet, and if Trespasser is any indication of the next game taking place in Tevinter, thats going to be a very interesting playthough. Especially since I played though Inquisition as a Dalish mage who: freed the mages, recuited the wardens and put Briala in charge. Which is why I am hoping that human mages in the next game will be from the Imperium, for that maximum anti-elvishness. 
 

-Meeting a poor elven slave on the road to Minrathous.

"Help me good Magister sir, bandits have kidnapped my wife and my owner refuses to pay the ransom, they are going to kill her!." - Elf

"No dice..." - Protagonist

 

"But why? With a wave of your staff you could turn these bandits to ashes, and save my wife too!" - Elf

 

"Sorry no can do, since you're an elf and therefor evil" - Protagonist

 

"Thats racist" - Elf

 

"I know right! However since learning of a global conspiracy of elves plotting to destroy the world, all of my otherwise irrational fears regarding your specific ethnic group have become completly valid. I guess your wife is just going to have to die, since I won't risk getting jumped by the elven Al-Qaeda lead by a demented elven ex-god." - Protagonist

 

"I don't know what to say" - Elf

 

"Yeah.... Sorry but I have get going, I have a quest to help some Chantry sisters sell scriptures to qunari, and that is a better waste of my time than risking my neck for someone who is most likely taking orders from Osama bin Solas ." - Protagonist.

[In Exile]

So there's this guy in skyhold courtyard who goes on racist rants about how the elves are behind everything and have this big conspiracy. I assume from the light tone of the dialogue he's intended to evoke the "Aliens" guy rather than anything heavy, but he's still a racist jerk.

And he's totally correct. Not just kind of has a point, we've got a major conspiracy of elves who are behind everything, and they are in fact planning to destroy the world more or less. That.. bugs me. Fictional worlds where it turns out the racists had a point all along are a bit awkward.

I mean, the elves have tended to stand in for oppressed peoples of various types. And this sort of thing has been used as excuses for that oppression, particularly of Jews, who the elves often seem to take particular inspiration from, what with living in what are essentially ghettoes and having a promised land that was taken away from them and stuff.

Now of course in Trespasser, this sinister conspiracy isn't the only role for the elves. They also get to be terrorist infiltrators, for the sort-of-analogous-to-Islam-even-if-they-don't-have-any-doctrinal-similarities Qunari. So the ones who aren't in a sinister conspiracy to destroy the world are kind of islamic terrorists.

Of course we've got another elf there, Sera, who is basically sympathetic and positive. She rejects elven culture of any type and condemns any elf who doesn't.

I don't want to get too heavy on that, since Trespasser is a very narrow shapshot, and there are other sympathetic elves in DAI, even if they're not very prominent.

And... I'm not really sure if I've got much of a point here. I mean, I don't want Bioware to not deal with interesting plots just because they can be read in odd ways with regards to real life, and I don't think Elves should be immune to being the baddies just because they're treated like crap in Thedas. I guess I'd just like to see some stuff going on where elves - ones who don't use elfy as a pejorative - are the goodies if we're going to be pushing on with the elf conspiracy as seems likely.

And I guess I'd quite like to be persuaded I'm being silly and finding things that don't exist here. Like, I've just remembered that Charter is present in Trespasser and she's an elf and not a bad guy, even if I don't recall her saying anything. If people can point out other problems with my thinking, that'd be great.

The "elves" aren't behind anything. They're the remnants of a once great culture who - after falling towards brutal infighting after being mutilated by one of their supposed gods - were victimised for millenia by the other races - humans, dwarves and qunari.

The "elvhen" (or ancient elves) - the few that still live - are the remnants of a elitist ruling class. They want to restore a world based on, ultimately, a very racist ideal about what being "elvhen" means.

[Lumix19]

The "elves" aren't behind anything. They're the remnants of a once great culture who - after falling towards brutal infighting after being mutilated by one of their supposed gods - were victimised for millenia by the other races - humans, dwarves and qunari.

The "elvhen" (or ancient elves) - the few that still live - are the remnants of a elitist ruling class. They want to restore a world based on, ultimately, a very racist ideal about what being "elvhen" means.

In fact we don't even know what the Elvhen want, only Solas has expressed a desire to return to what once was. Indeed Abelas' notes seem to indicate that some of the younger Elvhen don't even truly know what they've lost, perhaps they are ready to embrace a new world?

http://dragonage.wik...e_Elven_Writing

[SandiKay0]

The way I see this, the elven uprising/team-elf-vs-the-world would have happend regardless of Solas Interference. Briala was doing something similar with the eluvians before anyhow. Starting an elven uprising using ancient elvhen magics and such. Solas is simply using millennia of oppression to further his plan to tear down the veil.

 

 

 

That is actually quite funny, Solas should have spent more time with the Irony Spirits in the fade.

 

Still Trespasser made sure that I will be very suspiscious of any elves I meet, and if Trespasser is any indication of the next game taking place in Tevinter, thats going to be a very interesting playthough. Especially since I played though Inquisition as a Dalish mage who: freed the mages, recuited the wardens and put Briala in charge. Which is why I am hoping that human mages in the next game will be from the Imperium, for that maximum anti-elvishness. 
 

-Meeting a poor elven slave on the road to Minrathous.

"Help me good Magister sir, bandits have kidnapped my wife and my owner refuses to pay the ransom, they are going to kill her!." - Elf

"No dice..." - Protagonist

 

"But why? With a wave of your staff you could turn these bandits to ashes, and save my wife too!" - Elf

 

"Sorry no can do, since you're an elf and therefor evil" - Protagonist

 

"Thats racist" - Elf

 

"I know right! However since learning of a global conspiracy of elves plotting to destroy the world, all of my otherwise irrational fears regarding your specific ethnic group have become completly valid. I guess your wife is just going to have to die, since I won't risk getting jumped by the elven Al-Qaeda lead by a demented elven ex-god." - Protagonist

 

"I don't know what to say" - Elf

 

"Yeah.... Sorry but I have get going, I have a quest to help some Chantry sisters sell scriptures to qunari, and that is a better waste of my time than risking my neck for someone who is most likely taking orders from Osama bin Solas ." - Protagonist.

God I love this lol

[In Exile]

In fact we don't even know what the Elvhen want, only Solas has expressed a desire to return to what once was. Indeed Abelas' notes seem to indicate that some of the younger Elvhen don't even truly know what they've lost, perhaps they are ready to embrace a new world?

http://dragonage.wik...e_Elven_Writing

 

All of the ancient elves - and by all I mean the two of them - lamented their lost world and wanted it back. Abelas just didn't think it was possible. 

 

(Re: that codex, it reads to me as if it's post-Mythal's death but pre-Veil). 

[rx00]

The way I see this, the elven uprising/team-elf-vs-the-world would have happend regardless of Solas Interference. Briala was doing something similar with the eluvians before anyhow. Starting an elven uprising using ancient elvhen magics and such. Solas is simply using millennia of oppression to further his plan to tear down the veil.

 

 

 

That is actually quite funny, Solas should have spent more time with the Irony Spirits in the fade.

 

Still Trespasser made sure that I will be very suspiscious of any elves I meet, and if Trespasser is any indication of the next game taking place in Tevinter, thats going to be a very interesting playthough. Especially since I played though Inquisition as a Dalish mage who: freed the mages, recuited the wardens and put Briala in charge. Which is why I am hoping that human mages in the next game will be from the Imperium, for that maximum anti-elvishness. 
 

-Meeting a poor elven slave on the road to Minrathous.

"Help me good Magister sir, bandits have kidnapped my wife and my owner refuses to pay the ransom, they are going to kill her!." - Elf

"No dice..." - Protagonist

 

"But why? With a wave of your staff you could turn these bandits to ashes, and save my wife too!" - Elf

 

"Sorry no can do, since you're an elf and therefor evil" - Protagonist

 

"Thats racist" - Elf

 

"I know right! However since learning of a global conspiracy of elves plotting to destroy the world, all of my otherwise irrational fears regarding your specific ethnic group have become completly valid. I guess your wife is just going to have to die, since I won't risk getting jumped by the elven Al-Qaeda lead by a demented elven ex-god." - Protagonist

 

"I don't know what to say" - Elf

 

"Yeah.... Sorry but I have get going, I have a quest to help some Chantry sisters sell scriptures to qunari, and that is a better waste of my time than risking my neck for someone who is most likely taking orders from Osama bin Solas ." - Protagonist.

 

 

I knew this will come in handy one day.

 

 

But seriously though, I doubt going full conspiracy racist is necessary. You may just drove this poor husband into Dread Wolf's Jolly Apocalypse Club.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Some very cool ideas in this thread. Could make for a very interesting RP experience playing as an elf trying to stop Solas and having to wrestle with conflicted allegiances between their own race and the rest of the world.

[Wahed89]

Or maybe you need to be narratively coddled in order to not consider these views as legitimate.

Stereotypes exist for a reason. Not often a good reason, but a reason. And we can still rise above them. But they're going to exist and they're going to have evidence that create and support them. Whether we like that or not, prejudice itself (perhaps borne from survival necessity) is natural until proven otherwise.

My point was that they are legitimised implicitly in game, not that I hold the views to be legitimate. I certainly don't need to be coddled.

Of course you are right about why stereotypes exist. The game ultimately does a good job of establishing stereotypes and giving them weight. It doesn't do enough to break them down is my issue. We have a lot of examples of good and bad humans, but examples of genuinely good and trustworthy elves are few and far between.

BW can do better.

[Poledo]

It makes sense that you see things like this reflected in games because it written by people who are exposed to these things every day.

[Gervaise]

The problem will only be if they make the next instalment reflect that final epilogue slide and all elves are running off to join Solas, unless they have already been brain washed by the Qun.   I like playing elves.    I loved playing a city elf in Origins.    I really get into my role playing and that one had something to really get my teeth into.   However, I also liked the different approach if you are Dalish and got into my Lavellan role in DAI.    However, with the exception of my girl who romanced Solas, who really messed with her head, my other Lavellan's are totally appalled at what Solas wants to do, totally picked up on the fact that we will burn along with everyone else, and really are prepared to do what it takes to stop him. Do not regard Solas as our sad friend who we desperately want to redeem, although if we can convince him to stop his insane plan (not holding my breath on that one) naturally it is an alternative approach.    I'm hoping that this will include being able to persuade other elves not to join him, rather than it being a case of large numbers of elves are again slaughtered to further the story.  

 

If the Dread Wolf had returned to lead the elven slaves in glorious rebellion against their masters before he led them off to a new homeland through his eluvians, that would have been great.     Somehow I don't see that happening.  

 

Incidentally, I see the Qun as more representative of communism not Islam.

[Heimdall]

The problem will only be if they make the next instalment reflect that final epilogue slide and all elves are running off to join Solas, unless they have already been brain washed by the Qun. .

That final slide doesn't even say that actually. It says "elves in the Inquisition and elven servants across Thedas" so it sounds like a lot but it never uses the word "all", even for the Inqusition.