58 réponses à ce sujet

[rapscallioness]

Enough for you to - what? Say his plan will likely result in chaos and destruction? That's ONLY part of this thing we can say for sure, really, and even that statement carries a "likely" tacked on.

 

For all we know, that may be what he wants. That may be his plan going right. 

 

We have no idea.

 

That's what he said. That it will likely lead to chaos and destruction. Yes, that is enough for me to--"what?" know that's what he's planning on doing.  And we do have an idea from the actual lips of Solas.

 

You're fooling yourself. Stop making excuses for your waifu. He's planning on doing bad things, he knows it and tells you as much.

[Ellawynn]

That's what he said. That it will likely lead to chaos and destruction. Yes, that is enough for me to--"what?" know that's what he's planning on doing.  And we do have an idea from the actual lips of Solas.

 

You're fooling yourself. Stop making excuses for your waifu. He's planning on doing bad things, he knows it and tells you as much.

I'm... not trying to make excuses? Regardless of what Solas wants, he's willing to sacrifice a lot of people to get it. That by itself is a pretty terrible thing, and the only reason one needs to stop him. I'm not trying to excuse that. 

 

But we know nothing beyond that. And it frustrates me when people spit out theories - both ones that favor Solas and ones that don't - with nothing but assumptions and vague claims to back it up. This isn't about me "making excuses for my waifu," it's my general dislike of people who state their theories and opinions as facts.

[Shienis]

Oh, come on, you can't actually believe there will be any negative consequences to his plan. Of course, when he tears down the Veil, no one will die, but rather everyone will get magic, immense wisdom, etc. The Darkspawn will be cleansed and the spirits and the living will become best friends forever.

[Lumix19]

I'm... not trying to make excuses? Regardless of what Solas wants, he's willing to sacrifice a lot of people to get it. That by itself is a pretty terrible thing, and the only reason one needs to stop him. I'm not trying to excuse that.

But we know nothing beyond that. And it frustrates me when people spit out theories - both ones that favor Solas and ones that don't - with nothing but assumptions and vague claims to back it up. This isn't about me "making excuses for my waifu," it's my general dislike of people who state their theories and opinions as facts.

Pretty much. It's good to think about these things, the potential consequences, whether there's something positive to be gained, rather than jumping on the bandwagon of "kill Solas".

[Ellawynn]

Oh, come on, you can't actually believe there will be any negative consequences to his plan. Of course, when he tears down the Veil, no one will die, but rather everyone will get magic, immense wisdom, etc. The Darkspawn will be cleansed and the spirits and the living will become best friends forever.

I don't believe that either! His plan will probably have a mess of negative consequences - but neither I nor anyone else but the writers know what they are!

 

I'm just trying to argue for level-headedness. 

[SwobyJ]

It will not be In Hushed Whispers. That world had a Veil. It was just severely weakened and harmed/harmful demons were pouring through rifts.

 

It will not be the Raw Fade, specifically the Nightmare Realm we visited. It will not have swarming demons and bizzaroland.

 

I want to make my opinion on that clear. I don't think it will be destruction everywhere in the way that Corypheus was a threat.

 

 

 

But it'll be big. The 'world' Thedosians exist in will be 'destroyed'. All institutions ended. All mortality put on the low rung of power. All non-mages put on the low rung of power more than ever. Both demons and non-demon spirits interact freely with Thedas.

 

It'd be too much for any of the existing forms of order on Thedas to bear, and this does indeed mean mass deaths and chaos as the new order forms/old order reforms.

 

Bringing down the Veil may also have a time component too, maybe even a bit like the Elder Scrolls 'Dragon Break', where the chronology gets 'crunched' and events become a new timeline that will effectively keep this Thedas around but also have it demolished by radical change and the return of Elvenan.

 

'World ending' and 'burn in the chaos' and 'likely die' could still actually not be as directly literal as it seems. But it'll still mean the end of this world, destruction, and death. With how Solas plans so far.

 

I think that at least in In Hushed Whispers we can imagine everyone dying within a few years, whereas the future of Solas' plan could instead mean an extended process of developments that change things so much that what we call the 'world of Thedas' no longer 'exists'. In the meantime, institutions like the Inquisition being strong could still be seen as a good thing, as it might hold out longer and provide refuge in the time being - both before the Veil going down (when it comes to facing the Qun) and after (when it comes to facing ..????).

 

 

What I think we need to be prepared for is that whatever comes, it won't be the same as the Breachy situation in DAI. Maybe there will be rifts involved, and a sort of thing reminiscent of the Breach, but we're NOT REVISITING THIS to such a degree ever again - it would make no sense narratively,.

This is about tearing down the Veil, not punching holes through it. It means bringing all of the Fade (the bad AND THE GOOD) in to interact more with Thedas again, not pooping out frenzied nightmared demons that can't even be spoken with. Sure there'd be a demonic threat everywhere, but its still not the same thing a DAI.

 

Solas' plan actually has a lot of pluses. Our problem is that the collateral damage of everything the writers had us prop up in the narrative of DAI - the institutions and society of (in this case Southern) Thedas. And on a larger scale.

 

I don't expect the regular Ferelden to stand any chance against the changes that the Veil going down would bring. At least with the Breach they could keep to themselves and be aware of the locations of the rifts and try to keep their distance, but there would be no/little 'distance' if the Veil is down. Its a state of the world that they wouldn't know at all. Even the early humans of the pre-Veil day were probably more prepared. I think we were exposed a lot to the Avvar in DAI for a reason; they'd be among the mundanes most prepared for better interaction with the Fade, unlike a city commoner, for example. Denerim could easily be razed to the chaos of even just a few days or weeks of this sort of new world, I imagine. 

 

 

What rises up would be Solas' new society, one clearly involving some form of elves. But beyond that, is up to us, and maybe the writers if they haven't figured it out yet, to consider. I don't think Solas is planning to be a ruler though. In fact, I think he's prepared to be hated forever, even by those who end up thriving in the new world. He's terrified of, but ultimately prepared to die alone for this cause. How he'll die is another thing to figure out.

[Shienis]

I don't believe that either! His plan will probably have a mess of negative consequences - but neither I nor anyone else but the writers know what they are!

 

I'm just trying to argue for level-headedness. 

 

Ah, it was not directed at you specifically, it was generally for this thread.

And maybe I should have added the irony tag.

 

But in all seriousness, at this point it's hard for me to believe that the writers would add any significant negative consequences to anything related to magic.

[Lumix19]

It will not be In Hushed Whispers. That world had a Veil. It was just severely weakened and harmed/harmful demons were pouring through rifts.

It will not be the Raw Fade, specifically the Nightmare Realm we visited. It will not have swarming demons and bizzaroland.

I want to make my opinion on that clear. I don't think it will be destruction everywhere in the way that Corypheus was a threat.



But it'll be big. The 'world' Thedosians exist in will be 'destroyed'. All institutions ended. All mortality put on the low rung of power. All non-mages put on the low rung of power more than ever. Both demons and non-demon spirits interact freely with Thedas.

It'd be too much for any of the existing forms of order on Thedas to bear, and this does indeed mean mass deaths and chaos as the new order forms/old order reforms.

Bringing down the Veil may also have a time component too, maybe even a bit like the Elder Scrolls 'Dragon Break', where the chronology gets 'crunched' and events become a new timeline that will effectively keep this Thedas around but also have it demolished by radical change and the return of Elvenan.

'World ending' and 'burn in the chaos' and 'likely die' could still actually not be as directly literal as it seems. But it'll still mean the end of this world, destruction, and death. With how Solas plans so far.

I think that at least in In Hushed Whispers we can imagine everyone dying within a few years, whereas the future of Solas' plan could instead mean an extended process of developments that change things so much that what we call the 'world of Thedas' no longer 'exists'. In the meantime, institutions like the Inquisition being strong could still be seen as a good thing, as it might hold out longer and provide refuge in the time being - both before the Veil going down (when it comes to facing the Qun) and after (when it comes to facing ..????).


What I think we need to be prepared for is that whatever comes, it won't be the same as the Breachy situation in DAI. Maybe there will be rifts involved, and a sort of thing reminiscent of the Breach, but we're NOT REVISITING THIS to such a degree ever again - it would make no sense narratively, even if there's a 'Breach' that covers all of Thedas.
This is about tearing down the Veil, not punching holes through it. It means bringing all of the Fade (the bad AND THE GOOD) in to interact more with Thedas again, not pooping out frenzied nightmared demons that can't even be spoken with. Sure there'd be a demonic threat everywhere, but its still not the same thing a DAI.

Solas' plan actually has a lot of pluses. Our problem is that the collateral damage is everything the writers had us prop up in the narrative of DAI - the institutions and society of (in this case Southern) Thedas. And on a larger scale.

I don't expect the regular Ferelden to stand any chance against the changes that the Veil going down would bring. At least with the Breach they could keep to themselves and be aware of the locations of the rifts and try to keep their distance, but there would be no/little 'distance' if the Veil is down. Its a state of the world that they wouldn't know at all. Even the early humans of the pre-Veil day were probably more prepared. I think we were exposed a lot to the Avvar in DAI for a reason; they'd be among the mundanes most prepared for better interaction with the Fade, unlike a city commoner, for example. Denerim could easily be razed to the chaos of even just a few days or weeks of this sort of new world, I imagine.


What rises up would be Solas' new society, one clearly involving some form of elves. But beyond that, is up to us, and maybe the writers if they haven't figured it out yet, to consider. I don't think Solas is planning to be a ruler though. In fact, I think he's prepared to be hated forever, even by those who end up thriving in the new world. He's terrified of, but ultimately prepared to die alone for this cause. How he'll die is another thing to figure out.

You raise a good point about pre-Veil humans, I wonder how they experienced the change.

[SwobyJ]

I like to think the Solas had no real bad intentions when we propped up the Veil with those artifacts on maps.

 

For all we know, they could soften the blow of the lost Veil if/when it happens. It wouldn't be reflected much in the story, but we could imagine.

[rapscallioness]

I'm... not trying to make excuses? Regardless of what Solas wants, he's willing to sacrifice a lot of people to get it. That by itself is a pretty terrible thing, and the only reason one needs to stop him. I'm not trying to excuse that. 

 

But we know nothing beyond that. And it frustrates me when people spit out theories - both ones that favor Solas and ones that don't - with nothing but assumptions and vague claims to back it up. This isn't about me "making excuses for my waifu," it's my general dislike of people who state their theories and opinions as f

 

Very well, and yes, it is a terrible thing.

 

Beyond that we can only speculate from what we have gotten to know about his priorities.

 

I don;t want his vision. And I certainly don;t want the sacrifice needed to accomplish what he wants.

 

It's not about "kill Solas" for me. I actually considered him a friend. It's about stop Solas.

 

[SwobyJ]

You raise a good point about pre-Veil humans, I wonder how they experienced the change.

 

While not having intrinsic magic (Thedas is still another world from the Fade), I'm sure they of all people know how to exist with spirits the most (primitive as those dealings are; we'd need to seek a more evolved form of what they have).

 

Losing the Veil lead to the Tevinter Empire. The 'losers' of the Elven rule of Thedas got their chance to win, and that became Tevinter - spreading quickly and violently with its glad use of blood magic. Securing a slave system, rooting out elves, and pushing out those humans who remained tribal.

 

Communion with spirits became cavorting with demons. In terms of the scale of elevation of magic in the world, it was hell. In terms of human rule, it was the start (later becoming the Orlesian Empire, and IMO I wonder about a new humany empire on its way but that's just personal theory).

[rapscallioness]

Ultimatley, I don;t think he's going to succeed in his plan. I don;t think the writers will have that. Unless it is end series scenario. Otherwise I think it will be another challenge that haunts us through the next game, or so.

[SwobyJ]

Ultimatley, I don;t think he's going to succeed in his plan. I don;t think the writers will have that. Unless it is end series scenario. Otherwise I think it will be another challenge that haunts us through the next game, or so.

 

I think increased magical and spiritual presence on Thedas is inevitable and will be a big deal.

 

Solas' plan itself may not happen, but I can see a form of it happening - perhaps impacted by choice but not to the point of diverting the core narrative too much.

 

There will be death and destruction happening, of this sort, regardless. Bad stuff happens. But the context is what matters and there will be at the very minimum one full game in the future to provide us this context and plot twists etc etc.

[Ellawynn]

 

Ah, it was not directed at you specifically, it was generally for this thread.

And maybe I should have added the irony tag.

 

But in all seriousness, at this point it's hard for me to believe that the writers would add any significant negative consequences to anything related to magic.

 

 

Oh, sorry. I'm a bit too quick to get defensive sometimes.

Very well, and yes, it is a terrible thing.

 

Beyond that we can only speculate from what we have gotten to know about his priorities.

 

I don;t want his vision. And I certainly don;t want the sacrifice needed to accomplish what he wants.

 

It's not about "kill Solas" for me. I actually considered him a friend. It's about stop Solas.

 

 Okay, sorry if I got snippy. I just - I feel like Solas and his goals are bit more nuanced then "He's a sad puppy who did nothing wrong/a genocidal psychopath with no redeeming points at all," and that sometimes people make it too black-and-white like that.

[rapscallioness]

Actually, I see the future of Thedas more impacted by new science, and-initially a magitek/.

 

I think Thedas is going the way of science and invention. You see it with that small convo with the surgeon in Skyhold. You see it with all the strange magitek gizmos lying about--assuming from the Venatori there.

 

You see it with the constant push for the blackpowder. You even see it with the machine gun Bianca's those Sha-Brytol had.

 

Things are changing. It's moving away from the magical and superstition. I think that's one reason these older myths and stories of various cultures beginning to be laid bare.

 

edit

[rapscallioness]

Oh, sorry. I'm a bit too quick to get defensive sometimes.

 Okay, sorry if I got snippy. I just - I feel like Solas and his goals are bit more nuanced then "He's a sad puppy who did nothing wrong/a genocidal psychopath with no redeeming points at all," and that sometimes people make it too black-and-white like that.

 

It's all good. We all get snippy. Wouldn't be the BSN proper without it.

[Lumix19]

Actually, I see the future of Thedas more impacted by new science, and-initially a magitek that turns into more tech.

I think Thedas is going the way of science and invention. You see it with that small convo with the surgeon in Skyhold. You see it with all the strange magitek gizmos lying about--assuming from the Venatori there.

You see it with the constant push for the blackpowder. You even see it with the machine gun Bianca's those Sha-Brytol had.

Things are changing. It's moving away from the magical and superstition. I think that's one reason these older myths and stories of various cultures beginning to be laid bare.

I dunno. I think if they were going in that direction they'd just have denied their existence. The Elvhen being revealed as truly immortal, the Avvar spirit-gods aiding the clans, the Titan(s) being real, the Evanuris being confirmed as existing (even if not necessarily as the gods they were said to be) - it doesn't really signal a shift away from magic in my mind. The world of Thedas is more magical than people had thought, not less.

[rapscallioness]

I can't seem to type right anymore.

 

i think that means i need to to goooo. i'm tired.

[Fredward]

Pretty sure there's another reason he's doing what he's doing and it has something to do with the Blight. And it being more dangerous than people realize. Maybe we'll see dual Old Gods in DA4? The dragons of Night & Mystery, How alarming. They'll be killed like midway but the Blight won't go away and then mass confusion! Panic! Then Doom Egg will show up and lay down extrapolation bombs in a very smarmy way and then poof. Anyway! I think Solas' plans will have srs ramifications either as the capstone of the series or as a way to let us go somewhere entirely new in a far, faaaar away land where for mysterious reasons the ramifications haven't reached and start over there.

[rapscallioness]

I dunno. I think if they were going in that direction they'd just have denied their existence. The Elvhen being revealed as truly immortal, the Avvar spirit-gods aiding the clans, the Titan(s) being real, the Evanuris being confirmed as existing (even if not necessarily as the gods they were said to be) - it doesn't really signal a shift away from magic in my mind. The world of Thedas is more magical than people had thought, not less.

 

 

oops just noticed this:

 

Well you got me the elvhen immortality thing.

 

But the tiatns and even the spirit gods of the avvar-to me--all represnet forces of nature. like hakkon being winter. forces of nature perceibved as spirits. i think there's a fine line, and perhaps even a marriage of the two. but it feels to me like  it's changing to more science than pure magic. we'll see.

 

alright i really gotta go.

[rapscallioness]

Pretty sure there's another reason he's doing what he's doing and it has something to do with the Blight. And it being more dangerous than people realize. Maybe we'll see dual Old Gods in DA4? The dragons of Night & Mystery, How alarming. They'll be killed like midway but the Blight won't go away and then mass confusion! Panic! Then Doom Egg will show up and lay down extrapolation bombs in a very smarmy way and then poof. Anyway! I think Solas' plans will have srs ramifications either as the capstone of the series or as a way to let us go somewhere entirely new in a far, faaaar away land where for mysterious reasons the ramifications haven't reached and start over there.

 

lol!

[Lumix19]

oops just noticed this:

Well you got me the elvhen immortality thing.

But the tiatns and even the spirit gods of the avvar-to me--all represnet forces of nature. like hakkon being winter. forces of nature perceibved as spirits. i think there's a fine line, and perhaps even a marriage of the two. but it feels to me like it's changing to more science than pure magic. we'll see.

alright i really gotta go.

Could be, I wouldn't be adverse to it. Bye.

[SwobyJ]

Actually, I see the future of Thedas more impacted by new science, and-initially a magitek/.

 

I think Thedas is going the way of science and invention. You see it with that small convo with the surgeon in Skyhold. You see it with all the strange magitek gizmos lying about--assuming from the Venatori there.

 

You see it with the constant push for the blackpowder. You even see it with the machine gun Bianca's those Sha-Brytol had.

 

Things are changing. It's moving away from the magical and superstition. I think that's one reason these older myths and stories of various cultures beginning to be laid bare.

 

edit

 

I think that's the longer plan and something growing and it will be in DA4.

 

The techy stuff is still farther off IMO. Surgeon? Was a total outlyer. Magitech gizmos? Lost artifacts. Blackpowder? Qunari and they're not sharing. Sha-Brytol? Hidden.

 

We're uncovering this, sure, but I don't think it'll be the initial setup of DA4, for example. But maybe as DA4 continues.. and into DA5

[Aulis Vaara]

I don't why I haven't seen anyone make this connection, but the reason why Solas wants everyone to be happy before he drops the Veil is to minimize the number of demons he will have to deal with.

[Hydwn]

You raise a good point about pre-Veil humans, I wonder how they experienced the change.

 

Assuming they existed.  Vivian if you take her to the library expresses skepticism of the idea that the Veil was created at some historical period because "there would have been some mention of it in human history."  Yet the Elven empire collapsed before humans show up in the story at all.  

 

Maybe humans are a consequence of a post-Veil world, something that could not have arisen before?  Either hey were made by the Maker after - and elves could have started as a kind of spirit - or they arose naturally in post-Veil conditions.  And if that's the case, the next question is, could they survive with the Veil restored?  Maybe not, and maybe that's the reason Solas is so certain they'll die.

 

I'm also curious about dwarves.  It seems pretty clear that they arose from titans, and Titans are part of Elven history as well (as enemies).  Did the Dwarves split off from Titans with the fracturing of the Veil?  What would hapen to them if it were restored?