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[Xilizhra]

Does no one realize that Fiona legitimately had incredibly few options there? Remember all the templars pillaging the countryside in the Hinterlands? Those are deserters from the templar army that was in the Hinterlands and preparing to attack Redcliffe before Lucius/Envy recalled them to Val Royeaux. There's a very high chance that the mage rebellion would have been completely screwed if the templars hadn't been part of a larger conspiracy; sure, Ferelden would throw the templars out if they attacked Redcliffe, but why would they care? The mission against the mage rebellion would have been accomplished, and any of Teagan's guards who died in the fighting would have been acceptable losses. At the time (thanks to Alexius' shenanigans, that time is immediately after the Breach when Fiona might not even know that the Inquisition exists), accepting an alliance with Tevinter (and the indenturing contract said that they would all become Tevinter citizens eventually, and nothing in it implies that Alexius and his forces would be staying in and occupying Redcliffe) could legitimately seem like the only option.

[vertigomez]

I concur. Desperate people do desperate things.

Besides, I can think of characters I like a lot less than Fiona. Like... Adrian. >_____>

[Amne YA]

desperate  poeple  do stupid  stuf .  we don't hate her .  we just  say  that she did  stupid **** . because she did 

[Reznore57]

The mages were never screwed just the people outside of Redcliffe facing renegate templars and mages.

Worst case scenario , there was Redcliffe castle , templars wouldn't have managed to get close to it on boat .

Then the mages only had to wait a bit , the King and Queen would have send troops after a while...

 

So yeah she messed up big time .If she had a brain she would have helped the Iarl of Redcliffe threw Alexius out of town.

[TobiTobsen]

A Xilizhra thread about Fiona, who is an elf AND a mage?

 

 

Dis gon b gud.

[X Equestris]

Oh sure, because betraying the ideals that led to the rebellion in the first place is so awesome. Why should they believe that the terms of the deal will be honored?

[Iakus]

I recall just as many rebel mages tearing up the countryside as templars.

 

And Fiona was willing to die at White Spire, where the odds were stacked even higher against her.  But it's at Redcliffe where she's willing to quite literally sell out her own "mage freedom cause" to "indentured servitude"

[Xilizhra]

The mages were never screwed just the people outside of Redcliffe facing renegate templars and mages.

Worst case scenario , there was Redcliffe castle , templars wouldn't have managed to get close to it on boat .

Then the mages only had to wait a bit , the King and Queen would have send troops after a while...

This assumes that Teagan would have let them into the castle. Given the issue with Connor before, he probably wouldn't allow a large group of mages likely to be highly emotional inside.

 

 

So yeah she messed up big time .If she had a brain she would have helped the Iarl of Redcliffe threw Alexius out of town.

How could she have? That would kind of destroy the entire point.

 

 

Oh sure, because betraying the ideals that led to the rebellion in the first place is so awesome. Why should they believe that the terms of the deal will be honored?

Well, the options on that table were that, death, or Tranquility.

 

 

I recall just as many rebel mages tearing up the countryside as templars.

What does that have to do with anything? Yes, a minority of both sides took up banditry.

 

 

And Fiona was willing to die at White Spire, where the odds were stacked even higher against her.  But it's at Redcliffe where she's willing to quite literally sell out her own "mage freedom cause" to "indentured servitude"

This isn't just about Fiona's life, this about the lives of all of her charges. In any case, the indenturing contract is for ten years, as opposed to a lifetime.

[Wulfram]

There was a third option. Going on the run. Mages don't have to march around with staffs and robes proclaiming themselves to be mages.

[Xilizhra]

There was a third option. Going on the run. Mages don't have to march around with staffs and robes proclaiming themselves to be mages.

That might work if they're willing to accept being almost completely defenseless.

[X Equestris]

There was a third option. Going on the run. Mages don't have to march around with staffs and robes proclaiming themselves to be mages.

And they don't have to all stay together. Lake Calenhad is big, and it probably can't be totally surrounded by the Templars. They could have taken boats across the lake and fled.

[Drasanil]

That might work if they're willing to accept being almost completely defenseless.

 

Like normal people? I thought mages wanted to be treated no differently than muggles... oh wait, no, they want freedom and special rights  

[Reznore57]

This assumes that Teagan would have let them into the castle. Given the issue with Connor before, he probably wouldn't allow a large group of mages likely to be highly emotional inside.

 

 

How could she have? That would kind of destroy the entire point.

 

He would have let them into the castles , mages were the biggest force opposing Templars attacking his town.

Put mages on ramparts , and they would never have been able to get to the castle.

Of course it would have required Fiona to be a good leader as in organised , with spies and a battle plan.

 

When she made an alliance with Alexius she made one ally who wanted to enslave her and her people and two ennemies , Ferelden who was supporting the Mages rebellion with no string attached and the templars.

She was given the chance to fight Tevinter and prove the mages in the South were different , willing to fight for their home and willing to fight for freedom .Not just for mages , but the freedom of all.

Tevinters are pro slavery , they aren't allowed to go to Ferelden and pick slaves , it's against Ferelden laws.

Fiona turned against one of the rare country supporting the mages rebellion , break its law and allying with an hostile foreign power here to invade and take slaves.

She basically screw over the mage rebellion , making them looking like morons.

 

Even if her people fell in Redcliffe , it would have send a positive message .

[X Equestris]

That might work if they're willing to accept being almost completely defenseless.

Mages are capable of casting without staves.

[Xilizhra]

And they don't have to all stay together. Lake Calenhad is big, and it probably can't be totally surrounded by the Templars. They could have taken boats across the lake and fled.

A. where would they get the boats, and B. that would just be a temporary measure.

 

 

Like normal people? I thought mages wanted to be treated no differently than muggles... oh wait, no, they want freedom and special rights  

Right, because mundanes would totally accept being defenseless when targeted by a genocidal war.

 

 

He would have let them into the castles , mages were the biggest force opposing Templars attacking his town.

Put mages on ramparts , and they would never have been able to get to the castle.

Of course it would have required Fiona to be a good leader as in organised , with spies and a battle plan.

I seriously doubt he would have allowed it.

 

 

When she made an alliance with Alexius she made one ally who wanted to enslave her and her people and two ennemies , Ferelden who was supporting the Mages rebellion with no string attached and the templars.

She was given the chance to fight Tevinter and prove the mages in the South were different , willing to fight for their home and willing to fight for freedom .Not just for mages , but the freedom of all.

Tevinters are pro slavery , they aren't allowed to go to Ferelden and pick slaves , it's against Ferelden laws.

Fiona turned against one of the rare country supporting the mages rebellion , break its law and allying with an hostile foreign power here to invade and take slaves.

She basically screw over the mage rebellion , making them looking like morons.

None of it would have been relevant, as Alexius would have removed them all from the country had he not been part of an unrelated conspiracy. And it's not like fighting the templars would have particularly increased public opinion of them; why would it?

 

 

Even if her people fell in Redcliffe , it would have send a positive message .

Good to know that you're willing to kill children to send a message, yes?

 

 

Mages are capable of casting without staves.

Much more weakly.

[Merela]

This isn't just about Fiona's life, this about the lives of all of her charges. In any case, the indenturing contract is for ten years, as opposed to a lifetime.

 

Out of curiosity, didn't "her charges" also include the Tranquils? How did they benefit from Fiona's deal with the Venatori, exactly?

[Reznore57]

Good to know that you're willing to kill children to send a message, yes?

 

 

And what do you think Fiona was doing exactly?

You think all the rebel mages were in Redcliffe?...No they weren't .

You think Fiona and Alexius were going to go in every country to pick up the rebel mages , before people hear the rebel mages were making allies with Tevinter?

[Xilizhra]

Out of curiosity, didn't "her charges" also include the Tranquils? How did they benefit from Fiona's deal with the Venatori, exactly?

Given that they're incapable of feeling pain or pleasure, I'd say it was a net neutral outcome aside from the opportunity cost that came from being unable to be cured, but most of the Tranquil didn't go with the mage rebellion in the first place; they were scooped up by the Venatori afterward. If the Venatori had just grabbed all of the Tranquil from the mage rebellion in Redcliffe, Clemence wouldn't have been there.

 

 

And what do you think Fiona was doing exactly?

You think all the rebel mages were in Redcliffe?...No they weren't .

You think Fiona and Alexius were going to go in every country to pick up the rebel mages , before people hear the rebel mages were making allies with Tevinter?

Fiona wasn't an autocrat, the deal was specifically for her (largest) cell; any other cells, like Sketch's, would be able to make the decision on their own, but we don't know what the dynamics of the other cells are.

[Shienis]

Although I'm really trying, I can't understand what exactly are you trying to say, so allow me a question: Are you actually saying, that it was OK for Fiona to sacrifice freedom of the mages to save lives?

[Andromelek]

I don't hate her for being an elf mage, I hate her for being a stupid capable to drag many people with her, honestly, beside being a mage who has been out of the Circle for a while, I don't think she had any aptitude of leader, the whole war began just like "Lol, Freedom!", without Ferelden's interference, the Templars would been able to win the war, her second mistake was blindly trust a Tevinter Magister even if Alexius wouldn't be a cultist pulling the strings on Corypheus' favour, the sole image was a bad idea and a stupid one, she had Redcliffe, history proved that this fortress doesn't fall so lightly, a Magister wouldn't be any difference against the army required to siege that castle, and even less if such army was made of Templars, also, she kicked Teagan, logically that action would angry the crown, and again was illogical for any tactician, if she wouldn't kick out Teagan, she could rest assure, because the Templars would likely kill him if they dared to attack, that would have made Ferelden go to war against Templars.

[Sifr]

Out of curiosity, didn't "her charges" also include the Tranquils? How did they benefit from Fiona's deal with the Venatori, exactly?

 

Clemence the Tranquil however tells us that Alexius has ordered all the Tranquil and other non-magical people out of Redcliffe, which seems to have been the commonly believed explanation in Redcliffe for where they all disappared.

 

At best we can say that the Rebellion is indirectly responsible, as they seemed to have not protested that much (or at all) to the news the Tranquil were to be sent out to wander around in the Hinterlands. We don't have any evidence they were involved in the systematic murder of the Tranquil, so we can presumably put that down entirely to the Venatori.

 

While there is that Tranquil murder-house in Redcliffe, it is located in a locked room at the docks that no-one would venture into. Compare that to the other locked rooms in Redcliffe that contain mostly storage, it probably wouldn't be that out of the usual to have a locked door there. That the current denizens of Redcliffe are mages and not sailors either means they have even less reason to be sniffering around the waterfront or any of the storerooms.

 

Not saying I like how the Rebellion were apparently fine with the Tranquil supposedly being kicked out of town, but it's hardly the same as saying they deserve the blame for most of them being filleted in secret by the Venatori.

[Hellion Rex]

Nah. The hatred is pretty justified.

[Xilizhra]

Although I'm really trying, I can't understand what exactly are you trying to say, so allow me a question: Are you actually saying, that it was OK for Fiona to sacrifice freedom of the mages to save lives?

It is fine for those willing to make that choice to do so. I wouldn't have supported it if Fiona forced mages into it who would otherwise have just left Redcliffe to take their chances with the templars, but there's no indication that she did, so we're fine.

 

 

I don't hate her for being an elf mage, I hate her for being a stupid capable to drag many people with her, honestly, beside being a mage who has been out of the Circle for a while, I don't think she had any aptitude of leader, the whole war began just like "Lol, Freedom!", without Ferelden's interference, the Templars would been able to win the war, her second mistake was blindly trust a Tevinter Magister even if Alexius wouldn't be a cultist pulling the strings on Corypheus' favour, the sole image was a bad idea and a stupid one, she had Redcliffe, history proved that this fortress doesn't fall so lightly, a Magister wouldn't be any difference against the army required to siege that castle, and even less if such army was made of Templars, also, she kicked Teagan, logically that action would angry the crown, and again was illogical for any tactician, if she wouldn't kick out Teagan, she could rest assure, because the Templars would likely kill him if they dared to attack, that would have made Ferelden go to war against Templars.

Ferelden would never have gone to war against the templars, they have no country. The templars could have gone back to Orlais and the Fereldan army couldn't have pursued them, because that would have started a war with Orlais. The most Ferelden could do is expel the templars, and by then, they wouldn't care.

[Lumix19]

I don't hate her for being an elf mage, I hate her for being a stupid capable to drag many people with her, honestly, beside being a mage who has been out of the Circle for a while, I don't think she had any aptitude of leader, the whole war began just like "Lol, Freedom!", without Ferelden's interference, the Templars would been able to win the war, her second mistake was blindly trust a Tevinter Magister even if Alexius wouldn't be a cultist pulling the strings on Corypheus' favour, the sole image was a bad idea and a stupid one, she had Redcliffe, history proved that this fortress doesn't fall so lightly, a Magister wouldn't be any difference against the army required to siege that castle, and even less if such army was made of Templars, also, she kicked Teagan, logically that action would angry the crown, and again was illogical for any tactician, if she wouldn't kick out Teagan, she could rest assure, because the Templars would likely kill him if they dared to attack, that would have made Ferelden go to war against Templars.

Perhaps Alexius told her he could get rid of the Templars, then poof! "Lucius" mysteriously recalls all the Templars back to Therinfall.

 

It is fine for those willing to make that choice to do so. I wouldn't have supported it if Fiona forced mages into it who would otherwise have just left Redcliffe to take their chances with the templars, but there's no indication that she did, so we're fine.

 

 

Ferelden would never have gone to war against the templars, they have no country. The templars could have gone back to Orlais and the Fereldan army couldn't have pursued them, because that would have started a war with Orlais. The most Ferelden could do is expel the templars, and by then, they wouldn't care.

I agree. I'm not sure how you would go about warring with the Templars.

[Andromelek]

Ferelden would never have gone to war against the templars, they have no country. The templars could have gone back to Orlais and the Fereldan army couldn't have pursued them, because that would have started a war with Orlais. The most Ferelden could do is expel the templars, and by then, they wouldn't care.

Which also means safety for the surviving mages, that would be better than selling themselves as slaves and losing Ferelden's support while earning their mistrust for siding with a foreign power.