Aller au contenu

Photo

Fiona gets a bit too much unjustified hatred


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
385 réponses à ce sujet

#251
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages

Here's why I'd argue that it's 'writing you don't like' rather than 'bad writing'- Fiona's failings are thematically consistent with the themes and foilibilities of mages: that they are people, and that as people they aren't just capable of being the innocents in a situation (the general role of the 'good mages' in the previous games), but that they'd have the same flaws, and desires, and failings, of people as well.

 

The Mage Rebellion was always a movement without direction- never had a plan of the 'how' or 'what next'- and the war was the natural, even desired, consequence of that. The mages rejected the idea of oversight and responsibility for others, took it into their own hands- and, like ill-prepared people everywhere, found it wasn't so easy when they hadn't prepared for it. (Self)Righteousness and cries of FREEEEDOM and even the ability to fling fireballs weren't enough- and the flipside of being self-responsible when things are going well is that you're still responsible when things go bad. Which has always been the question, and the fear, of mages- what will they do when things aren't going well? There's any number of reasons mages might be stressed or need an edge, but the Mage Freedom argument generally boils down to 'eh, trust us, we won't do anything desperate.'

 

It's no accident that Fiona's decision to submit to servitude is the epitome of 'trading freedom for security,' a major theme of the conflict, especially in a game built around 'restoring order.' It's not supposed to be a well-reasoned decision- Fiona acts out of fear as much as anything- but that's the point- that mages, even the free sort, can be tricked and afraid of exagerated threats and become desperate. Just like regular people, because they are people, and that's the tragedy of it all.

 

The issue with the mages selling themselves and their ideals out for security isn't that the Inquisition was an obvious alternative (it was still the early game- but Fiona would have tried if not pre-empted). It's that Fiona and the surviving mages went along with Alexius because they were not, in the end, moral supermen. They were people- fearful, desperate people, but still just people- and fear drives people to desperate, stupid things.

 

You can argue that they shouldn't ever have to be afraid in the first place... but that's the sort of viewpoint that says people shouldn't change themselves to protect themselves against the world, because the world should change to not harm them. It's an idealistic viewpoint that is going to be frequently disappointed.

And all of this actually does make for a very interesting take on the subject of the mage rebellion if the Herald allies with them and Leliana becomes Divine, something of a subversion of "history is written by the victors." Because the rebellion itself was not victorious; they were regular people, they screwed up their plans, bad decisions were made... but the reason they wind up winning in this scenario is because people outside the rebellion believed in them and their cause. The mages achieve freedom not through force of arms or clever strategy, but through moral authority and resonance.

 

And all this actually ties in very nicely and thematically with Leliana's conception of an unconditionally loving Maker and Andraste, where their purported successors act in the same manner.



#252
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 676 messages

For the most part, I think that the entire Redcliffe sequence was terribly written and contained numerous gaps; issues like this should have been addressed. Given Fiona's character as previously established, I find it unimaginable that she would somehow have completely forgotten about the castle, as it's not tremendously difficult to see.

 

Fiona's character as previously established was a person who got wrapped up in the moment, abandoned previous commitments including family and allegiance, thought it was a good idea to shun alliances with willing partners and patrons, and started an an unplanned rebellion over the objection of other mages on grounds of being backed into a corner (that she helped back them into).

 

What would be so out of character about her making another strategic blunder, after years of tactical defeats and failures, when she thinks herself backed into a corner by someone who's got a significant manipulation advantage edge of 'infinite retries to the winning argument'?



#253
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages

Fiona's character as previously established was a person who got wrapped up in the moment, abandoned previous commitments including family and allegiance, thought it was a good idea to shun alliances with willing partners and patrons, and started an an unplanned rebellion over the objection of other mages on grounds of being backed into a corner (that she helped back them into).

 

What would be so out of character about her making another strategic blunder, after years of tactical defeats and failures, when she thinks herself backed into a corner by someone who's got a significant manipulation advantage edge of 'infinite retries to the winning argument'?

It would necessitate no one, including Teagan, ever bringing up the castle as a factor in whatever talks between Fiona and Alistair/Anora had about where the mage rebellion would settle, and given how iconic and important the castle is, it strikes me as astonishingly unlikely.



#254
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 676 messages

And all of this actually does make for a very interesting take on the subject of the mage rebellion if the Herald allies with them and Leliana becomes Divine, something of a subversion of "history is written by the victors." Because the rebellion itself was not victorious; they were regular people, they screwed up their plans, bad decisions were made... but the reason they wind up winning in this scenario is because people outside the rebellion believed in them and their cause. The mages achieve freedom not through force of arms or clever strategy, but through moral authority and resonance.

 

No, if the Inquisition sides with the Mages it's just another variant of history and victors. How surprising. For the same reason that the Mages abandoning Thedas in the 'go north' route leaves the Templars legitimized and the Circles/mages demonized, siding with the Mages does the opposite. The Order is lost to the Red Templars, it's villified, and the Circles are the last faction standing. Mages won the battle by not losing, their enemy is vanquished and villified, and their ally/supporter in the rebellion (Leliana, for both her sympathies and prior actions) ascends to power. Surprise suprise, they get what they want.

 

 

 

The subversion comes if you side with the Mages but have Divine Vivienne (who crushes the victors), or Divine Leliana after siding with the Templars (who gives the political victory to the militarily defeated).

 

 

And all this actually ties in very nicely and thematically with Leliana's conception of an unconditionally loving Maker and Andraste, where their purported successors act in the same manner.

 

 

Er, if by unconditionally loving you mean 'favors what Leliana favors, and try to avoid the knives if you object.' Leliana's faith and politics changes to fit her passions, more than the other way around.

 

As far as religious themology goes, you could say the same about the Templars and the Circle system being re-established.


  • Drasanil et TobiTobsen aiment ceci

#255
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 676 messages

It would necessitate no one, including Teagan, ever bringing up the castle as a factor in whatever talks between Fiona and Alistair/Anora had about where the mage rebellion would settle, and given how iconic and important the castle is, it strikes me as astonishingly unlikely.

 

It doesn't necessitate that at all: it just requires Fiona to be afraid and lose faith that her patrons will stand by her, or think that it won't matter. That they will abandon their promise by blaming the mages for the Breach, or that there's a major Templar force that will mean their promise won't matter. Considering she already lost a war for easily predictable reasons that amount to strategic ineptitude...

 

Where the mages would settle was already determined in conjunction with the Crown: Redcliffe. Which had walls, and a castle, and an Arl closely aligned with the Monarch who was extending the offer of protection. Then the Breach happened, Mages might be blamed, and a Tevinter Magister cried Templar.

 

 

Edit: Forgive the edits- took me a number of re-reads to understand the point you were trying to make.



#256
Wulfram

Wulfram
  • Members
  • 18 948 messages

The Mages getting taken over by Tevinter is fairly reminiscent of the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War getting more or less taken over by the communists, despite nominally fighting for liberty and democracy and so forth, in a large part because the USSR was the only outside power willing to help them.

 

The Tevinter take over seems a little too blunt to be really believable - the game doesn't really have the time to make things subtle - and the predicament the mages found themselves in is rather contrived, but it's not a huge stretch by fictional standards.



#257
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 676 messages

Also- to return to a more important point than the invention of a motive-

 

Even if Redcliffe Castle was Fiona's motive for siding with Alexius, doing so for those reasons would also have been a bad decision. Without the Crown's support, Redcliffe Castle is a trap- and the only solution for the mages would be to flee, which they can't do if they're in the castle.

 

 

The reason for taking refuge in Redcliffe Castle is in case of a Templar attack that overruns the outer Redcliffe Walls. But this depends on the Templar attack being a temporary thing- that they can't storm the Castle (brute force), can't maintain a siege (which would overcome the castle eventually), or that they will be driven off by a relief force (the Ferelden Army).

 

Alexius's coup solves neither of these issues, because in Alexius's coup the Ferelden Army, days or weeks away, is now a hostile force. And when it arrives, the Mages will be in an even worse position- and their only real solution is to flee.

 

If the hypothetical Templar force is strong enough to storm Redcliffe Castle before the Ferelden Army arrives, then Alexius's magister support is largely irrelevant. Templars negate the mage reinforcements, and whatever extra men Alexius brings are probably countered by the loss of the Arl's men. Considering the defenses in place, any numbers sufficient to breach their way in will likely roll over the defenders once inside. Supporting Alexius's coup doesn't make sense.

 

If the hypothetical Templar force is strong enough to lay even a weak seige, then the Castle is only a temporary refuge until the Ferelden Army arrives... and they lay siege. Unlike the Templars, who aren't a full military, Ferelden would have the supplies, the resources, and the reason to establish a proper seige- one that would either starve out or eventually break the defenses, magic or no. Maybe the Templars fight Ferelden and cause some brief trouble... but it's just as likely that the Templars can align with the Crown, and team up against those magic coup-sters holed up in the castle. Supporting Alexius's coup doesn't make sense.

 

 

The third possibility- a relief army to break the seige- can be disregarded. Tevinter proper is too far. Orlais is in a civil war. And Ferelden is now the hostile army. Short of counting on a demonic army to ride to the rescue...

 

 

In all these cases, running, not holding up in the castle, is the better choice. In all of these, tolerating Alexius's coup and sticking around Redcliffe is a failing action. Making Ferelden unhappy is going to make the flight more perilous than it already was, and taking the Castle is going to require fleeing Ferelden in short order... without the benfit of the castle.


  • Drasanil aime ceci

#258
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 676 messages

The Mages getting taken over by Tevinter is fairly reminiscent of the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War getting more or less taken over by the communists, despite nominally fighting for liberty and democracy and so forth, in a large part because the USSR was the only outside power willing to help them.

 

The Tevinter take over seems a little too blunt to be really believable - the game doesn't really have the time to make things subtle - and the predicament the mages found themselves in is rather contrived, but it's not a huge stretch by fictional standards.

 

The Tevinter takeover isn't the issue, really- the Mages are already established as largely a collective that gets pushed around as a group, even when they don't agree. Fraternity/voting politics, and all that. It's a consequence of the whole concept of a unified mage identity, herd identity. You might not like where the herd is going, but leaving it is worse.

 

What's contrived is that Redcliffe has the only mages we can use. It takes, what, a dozen mages to help the Inquisitor seal the Breach? And the Inquisition can't find that many in its own ranks? Or from recruiting Vivienne and her loyalists? Or by recruiting from the Carta/underworld? Or by asking around Tevinter?

 

Short of needing hundreds of mages- or some special relics that only Fiona's group had- the delimma falls apart.


  • Scuttlebutt101 aime ceci

#259
thesuperdarkone2

thesuperdarkone2
  • Members
  • 2 995 messages
Let's just admit it was bad writing just to make people consider siding with the Templars.

#260
JeffZero

JeffZero
  • Members
  • 14 400 messages

Fiona's always been OK in my book.

 

My book is pretty short though and also I think she's cute. So.



#261
Steelcan

Steelcan
  • Members
  • 23 291 messages

Let's just admit it was bad writing just to make people consider siding with the Templars.

nah


  • Tyrannosaurus Rex aime ceci

#262
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 676 messages

Let's just admit it was bad writing just to make people consider siding with the Templars.

 

It's not bad writing to encourage supporting siding with the Templars. It's bad writing so that there's a need for the Redcliffe mages.

 

Thanks to the Redcliffe visit the Mages have a much stronger, or at least more developed, lead-in to their story. There's a sympathetic- or at least non-antagonistic- reachout from Fiona at Val-Royeaux. Redcliffe offers an explorable area, dialogue with differing viewpoints, and both protagonist and antagonist development (Dorian and Alexius) on top of the interest-hook of time magic. You have an immediate issue, nearby, with a sense of what's wrong and why it's important.

 

Templar route gets a man punching a nun, a brief meeting with an *******, and Casandra's confusion.

 

Aside from that neither choice is set up in terms of 'siding with', if either route benefits from the writing as-is, it's the Mages.

 

Why would we admit something that's not true?


  • Drasanil, Tyrannosaurus Rex et Dabrikishaw aiment ceci

#263
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 676 messages

Fiona's always been OK in my book.

 

My book is pretty short though and also I think she's cute. So.

 

 

Dude, think what's been there. Alistair's head- both of them!



#264
Ryzaki

Ryzaki
  • Members
  • 34 422 messages

Dude, think what's been there. Alistair's head- both of them!

 

That's disgusting. :sick:


  • Tyrannosaurus Rex aime ceci

#265
sandalisthemaker

sandalisthemaker
  • Members
  • 5 387 messages

Dude, think what's been there. Alistair's head- both of them!

 

 

Wait.

 

Wat????



#266
JeffZero

JeffZero
  • Members
  • 14 400 messages

Dude, think what's been there. Alistair's head- both of them!

 

DragonAgeInquisition-2014-11-21-07-56-25



#267
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 676 messages

That's disgusting. :sick:

 

Ryzaki, Ryzaki, Ryzaki.

 

You're talking to the one who brought you the Asari birth canal debate after a college drinking session.

 

Wait.

 

Wat????

 

Think about where babies come from.

 

Think about what Alistair has.

 

Think of where it's been.

 

[/explainingdirtyjokeswhiledrunkruinsthefun]

 

DragonAgeInquisition-2014-11-21-07-56-25

 

Worst. O face. Ever.

 

(In DAI, at least.)


  • Ranadiel Marius, JeffZero et Wissenschaft 2.0 aiment ceci

#268
sandalisthemaker

sandalisthemaker
  • Members
  • 5 387 messages

 

Think about where babies come from.

 

Think about what Alistair has.

 

Think of where it's been.

 

[/explainingdirtyjokeswhiledrunkruinsthefun]

 

 

I get it, but when has it been there?

 

Ew. 



#269
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 676 messages

I get it, but when has it been there?

 

Ew. 

 

When he was born.

 

All men, it turns out, are mofo's.

 

[/somegirltoldmesoitmustbetrue]


  • sandalisthemaker et Wissenschaft 2.0 aiment ceci

#270
Ryzaki

Ryzaki
  • Members
  • 34 422 messages

I hate you Dean.

 

I need brain bleach.


  • TK514, dragonflight288, Scuttlebutt101 et 1 autre aiment ceci

#271
Tyrannosaurus Rex

Tyrannosaurus Rex
  • Members
  • 10 793 messages

This thread certainly took an interesting turn.



#272
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 676 messages

I hate you Dean.

 

I need brain bleach.

 

Ryzaki, you know you love me.

 

Just try not to think of your own sweet mum, okay?

 

This thread certainly took an interesting turn.

 

I figured it needed a little class.



#273
Andromelek

Andromelek
  • Members
  • 1 159 messages
Ok, I've got the joke, but why the hell it has been brought?

I knew I shouldn't read further. :sick:

#274
Xilizhra

Xilizhra
  • Members
  • 30 873 messages

Dude, think what's been there. Alistair's head- both of them!

It must be admitted, Fiona's held up very well for her age. Certainly more than Alistair.



#275
Ryzaki

Ryzaki
  • Members
  • 34 422 messages

Ryzaki, you know you love me.

 

Just try not to think of your own sweet mum, okay?

 

No. Just no.

 

Oh dear lord. *kicks Dean into a volcano* :sick: :sick: :sick: