385 réponses à ce sujet

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

It's really quite simple- there's no sensible reason for Asari to have human-equivalent sex organs down there. Their reproduction is entirely neural/mind-melding, so what's the evolutionary purpose or point of a pleasure sensor like a woman's? Humans feel good getting it on down there because we evolved to reproduce that way. Making is babies is fun, and that's how we do it. But Asari don't... so what's their excuse? Even assuming that there's two excretement tracks and not just one down there- a questionable assumption- it really should just be a birth canal. Not happy fun time zone.

 

In other words- Liara faked it every time, just to make you feel better about yourself.

 

 

Actually, thats not quite accurate to how evolution theory actually works. A lot of what any creature has is left over from past ancestors that may or may not be useful to their current form. Take our pinky finger for example. Or the appendix which is an organ that we keep developing regardless of having long outlived its function. 

 

Its quite possible that Asari have sexual organs that are no longer needed. They must have a birth canal to bare their children so its certainly possible those organs still retain their function to a limited degree even if they use their mind melding to reproduce now.

 

People often make the mistake that evolution theory means everything about an organism must survive a purpose that ensures is survablity.. Its more accurate to say evolution is a very hap hazard process that leaves any organism a hodgepodge mix of genes, some advantage, some disadvantage, and a lot rather neutral.

[Andromelek]

Wait, talking of the Asari, don't we actually have a kind of lizard that only has females and they only need to have sexual stimulation in order to breed?

[The Baconer]

[dragonflight288]

Okay....this thread has gone remarkably off-topic. 

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

 

I assume this means you won't be posting in this thread again. If so, good bye.

 

 

Okay....this thread has gone remarkably off-topic. 

 

Welcome to Xilizhra topics. Enjoy your stay.

[Lumix19]

Actually, thats not quite accurate to how evolution theory actually works. A lot of what any creature has is left over from past ancestors that may or may not be useful to their current form. Take our pinky finger for example. Or the appendix which is an organ that we keep developing regardless of having long outlived its function.

Its quite possible that Asari have sexual organs that are no longer needed. They must have a birth canal to bare their children so its certainly possible those organs still retain their function to a limited degree even if they use their mind melding to reproduce now.

People often make the mistake that evolution theory means everything about an organism must survive a purpose that ensures is survablity.. Its more accurate to say evolution is a very hap hazard process that leaves any organism a hodgepodge mix of genes, some advantage, some disadvantage, and a lot rather neutral.

This is true. I would just correct you since I think some work came out recently showing the appendix isn't as vestigial as previously thought.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

This is true. I would just correct you since I think some work came out recently showing the appendix isn't as vestigial as previously thought.

 

*Head Explodes*  *googles furiously* It apparently stores useful Bactria as a backup for your gut. Interesting. But there are other examples, such as our tail bone which most certainly has no use.

[JeffZero]

SO.

FIONA.

[Hellion Rex]

 

Next you'll say you thought I was a guy.

Wait....what?

[The Hierophant]

SO.

FIONA.

You mean that one synonym for incompetence?

[Lumix19]

*Head Explodes* *googles furiously* It apparently stores useful Bactria as a backup for your gut. Interesting. But there are other examples, such as our tail bone which most certainly has no use.

Well the more you know.

[thetinyevil]

I was under the impression that the mages in Redcliff were non-combatants. You know children, mages who couldn't or wouldn't fight.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

I was under the impression that the mages in Redcliff were non-combatants. You know children, mages who couldn't or wouldn't fight.

 

Only some of them were. Fiona thought the deal meant that only the mages capable of fighting would be required to fight but nope, turns out everyone fights or ELSE. DunDunDun!

[Ryzaki]

Wait....what?

 

I'm so happy I'm not the only one going "lol wut m8." you have no idea.

[Drasanil]

It's really quite simple- there's no sensible reason for Asari to have human-equivalent sex organs down there. Their reproduction is entirely neural/mind-melding, so what's the evolutionary purpose or point of a pleasure sensor like a woman's? Humans feel good getting it on down there because we evolved to reproduce that way. Making is babies is fun, and that's how we do it. But Asari don't... so what's their excuse? Even assuming that there's two excretement tracks and not just one down there- a questionable assumption- it really should just be a birth canal. Not happy fun time zone.

 

In other words- Liara faked it every time, just to make you feel better about yourself.

 

Haha. Maybe Asari evolved to have fun giving birth? I mean if the act of procreation isn't all that fun, maybe evolution found another way to encourage reproduction.

 

Of course that would make MaleShep woefully ill-equipped to...and Liara was faking...any ways... 

[Ieldra]

Actually, thats not quite accurate to how evolution theory actually works. A lot of what any creature has is left over from past ancestors that may or may not be useful to their current form. Take our pinky finger for example. Or the appendix which is an organ that we keep developing regardless of having long outlived its function. 

 

Its quite possible that Asari have sexual organs that are no longer needed. They must have a birth canal to bare their children so its certainly possible those organs still retain their function to a limited degree even if they use their mind melding to reproduce now.

 

People often make the mistake that evolution theory means everything about an organism must survive a purpose that ensures is survablity.. Its more accurate to say evolution is a very hap hazard process that leaves any organism a hodgepodge mix of genes, some advantage, some disadvantage, and a lot rather neutral.

Not quite the point. The important fact is that sexual attraction is extremely species-specific, and it has to be because otherwise there'd be cross-species copulation all acrross the board, which is usually disadvantageous. The mere fact that asari look attractive to humans is ludicrously implausible.

 

Sorry about continuing this OT strain, but the ME universe's biological absurdities are one of my pet peeves.

[Dean_the_Young]

Wait you're not?

 

EVERYTHING I THOUGHT WAS A LIE.

 

Everything, Ryzaki. Everything.

 

Even that.

 

WTF? this is the third time someone I thought was a guy turns to be a girl, stupid abstraction of images has really played me off on this forums.

 

What, so just because I'm articulate, knowledgeable, don't let empathy rule my ethics, and occasionally be an arse... I must be male?

 

That's sexist.

 

Instead of a wizened old man with ink-stained hands, we got a drunken coed. My whole world view is shattered.
It's madness, madness, I tell you!

 

Now, now. You can still join the 'Dean for Bioware Love Interest' fanclub, if you want.

[Dean_the_Young]

Okay....this thread has gone remarkably off-topic. 

 

This thread has gone remarkably awesome topic.

 

Which is to say- me. Who is disputably awesome.

 

Haha. Maybe Asari evolved to have fun giving birth? I mean if the act of procreation isn't all that fun, maybe evolution found another way to encourage reproduction.

 

Of course that would make MaleShep woefully ill-equipped to...and Liara was faking...any ways... 

 

Tali probably let Liara borrow her nerve-stim afterwards. No biggie.

[Shienis]

I don't. I find it a false conflict that pushes unnecessary division. Mages and mundanes can live in harmony.

 

[Dean_the_Young]

 

Not enough unicorns.

[Shienis]

Not enough unicorns.

 

They're invisible. You know, magic.  

[Ieldra]

Here's why I'd argue that it's 'writing you don't like' rather than 'bad writing'- Fiona's failings are thematically consistent with the themes and foilibilities of mages: that they are people, and that as people they aren't just capable of being the innocents in a situation (the general role of the 'good mages' in the previous games), but that they'd have the same flaws, and desires, and failings, of people as well.

 

The Mage Rebellion was always a movement without direction- never had a plan of the 'how' or 'what next'- and the war was the natural, even desired, consequence of that. The mages rejected the idea of oversight and responsibility for others, took it into their own hands- and, like ill-prepared people everywhere, found it wasn't so easy when they hadn't prepared for it. (Self)Righteousness and cries of FREEEEDOM and even the ability to fling fireballs weren't enough- and the flipside of being self-responsible when things are going well is that you're still responsible when things go bad. Which has always been the question, and the fear, of mages- what will they do when things aren't going well? There's any number of reasons mages might be stressed or need an edge, but the Mage Freedom argument generally boils down to 'eh, trust us, we won't do anything desperate.'

 

It's no accident that Fiona's decision to submit to servitude is the epitome of 'trading freedom for security,' a major theme of the conflict, especially in a game built around 'restoring order.' It's not supposed to be a well-reasoned decision- Fiona acts out of fear as much as anything- but that's the point- that mages, even the free sort, can be tricked and afraid of exagerated threats and become desperate. Just like regular people, because they are people, and that's the tragedy of it all. The Mage Freedom side in the previous games regularly emphasized that mages were people too, and that they wouldn't be any more of a risk or a concern as a consequence... but this was generally cast in the positive way (mages are just as moral as mundanes), not in the negative way (being just as good as mundanes means being just as bad).

 

The issue with the mages selling themselves and their ideals out for security isn't that the Inquisition was an obvious alternative (it was still the early game- but Fiona would have tried if not pre-empted). It's that Fiona and the surviving mages went along with Alexius because they were not, in the end, moral supermen- and moral supermen are generally the only sort who take all difficulties in stride without compromising themselves. That's why people of exceptional character are considered exceptional, and not routine.

 

They were people- fearful, desperate people, but still just people- and fear drives people to desperate, stupid things. You can argue that they shouldn't ever have to be afraid in the first place... but that's the sort of viewpoint that says people shouldn't change themselves to protect themselves against the world, because the world should change to not harm them. It's an idealistic viewpoint that is going to be frequently disappointed.

This was how it was intended to come across, indeed, but I recall my first game and it didn't. All we had to go on was Fiona at Val Royeaux, making friendly contact, and later Fiona again, acting like a mind-controlled zombie. We could speak with the other mages at Redcliffe, but in none of those conversations the impression: "We don't know what do to, we don't want to die and temporary indenture may be preferable to death by the templars" ever came across. 

 

So I think there *is* a problem with the writing, but it's not that the whole setup is problematic. It is actually, as you explained, a rather plausible scenario, but we weren't shown enough to bring it home to us. Perhaps the disproportionate hate Fiona gets would've been lessened had that desperation that drove the mages to their decision been on-screen at some time. My own opinions about this underwent considerable flip-flop because it all sounds plausible when explained off-screen, but when I play I must still fight the different impression conveyed by the scenes we get.

[Andromelek]

What, so just because I'm articulate, knowledgeable, don't let empathy rule my ethics, and occasionally be an arse... I must be male?

That's sexist.

Oops, I'm really sorry, I didn't meant to offend The photo gave me a false idea, that's all. (Name didn't help, that said.)

[WildOrchid]

Next you'll say you thought I was a guy.

 

 

 

Srsly, your name tricked me.

[Wulfram]

The Tevinter takeover isn't the issue, really- the Mages are already established as largely a collective that gets pushed around as a group, even when they don't agree. Fraternity/voting politics, and all that. It's a consequence of the whole concept of a unified mage identity, herd identity. You might not like where the herd is going, but leaving it is worse.

Not really. The mages have always been presented as disunited and fractious, with lots of splits and people going their own way. They're united only because of the Templar policy of mass slaughter.

More, they have a tradition of collective decision making, which means that not only does Fiona have to be an idiot, but other leading mages have to be an idiot. Not only that, but a very precise sort of idiot - "death or glory" idiots and "lets surrender and hope the Templars won't kill us all" idiots would both side against Tevinter.

A Tevinter take over could have been plausible, but it would have required making it a bunch of steps that each made sense, rather than jumping straight to "Become slaves, fight in another losing war and betray the cause you're fighting for."
 

What's contrived is that Redcliffe has the only mages we can use. It takes, what, a dozen mages to help the Inquisitor seal the Breach? And the Inquisition can't find that many in its own ranks? Or from recruiting Vivienne and her loyalists? Or by recruiting from the Carta/underworld? Or by asking around Tevinter?
 
Short of needing hundreds of mages- or some special relics that only Fiona's group had- the delimma falls apart.

I think you're taking the numbers presented in the game too literally. They tend to reflect more what is likely not to cause someones Xbox360/PS3 to catch fire than what is really intended.