385 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Actual numbers of mages is pretty impossible to pin down because Bioware never really gives any, but all indications are that the mage rebellion makes up the bulk of the southern mages. They've suffered desertion and attrition, but there's no reason to think that's not still the case.

Indeed, the fact that looking to mages not associated with the rebellion is not an option demonstrates that.

Tevinter sending the bulk of their ruling class south, or the Qunari sending a crucial segment of their army, which they consider vital to keep under control at all times, isn't going to happen unless you allow them to guarantee their safety with an army. Plus of course such a concentration of mages is essentially an army in its own right.

The only thing that runs counter to this is your insistence that the Breach is essentially a trivial matter that can be handled by an insignificant amount of mages (or Templars, presumably), because you take the cutscene numbers literally or near literally. But if you take cutscene and gameplay numbers literally, the whole conflict with Corypheus is on a rather smaller scale than the invasion of Grenada.

[Steelcan]

You could say the same about the Templars too. Why do we need the ones at Therinfal and not ask the unaligned Templars at Hasmal (the second largest group of Templars after Therinfal) or Ostwick? Or train our own?

Several reasons, courting unaffiliated templars will likely lead nowhere as the ones who either stayed with the Chantry would not just now decide to join what is at first a heretical organization in direct opposition to the institution they had just stayed with. Only by entering into a formal alliance with the Templar order, or by absorbing the remnants of it, does the Inquisition gain the standing it needs to deal with them.

As for training its own, the Inquisition is most likely not inundated with enough recruits young enough to learn all the requisite skills, enough lyrium to equip them, or even likely an entire training corps dedicated to making them. Its one thing to get a bunch of farmers to hold a shield wall, nations and empires have been doing it to varying degrees of success for milennia. Its quite another to create a professional warrior caste almost from scratch.

[TK514]

You could say the same about the Templars too. Why do we need the ones at Therinfal and not ask the unaligned Templars at Hasmal (the second largest group of Templars after Therinfal) or Ostwick? Or train our own?

 

Well...the Templars at Therinfal are as much a political body as they are a military force.  Bringing them on board gives the Inquisition some much needed legitimacy at a time when most of the important factions of the South see us as weird upstarts or heretics.  It is unfortunate that the Lord Seeker turned out to be an Envy Demon imposter and, later, a complete nutjob, but in the end, as long as we have Josephine to mind control anyone we need any diplomacy with at all, we didn't really need his support anyway.

[Dean_the_Young]

You could say the same about the Templars too. Why do we need the ones at Therinfal and not ask the unaligned Templars at Hasmal (the second largest group of Templars after Therinfal) or Ostwick? Or train our own?

 

No- that's totally true. It'd be marginally easier to make a numbers requirement vis-a-vis the mages, considering the typical thematic 'lots of Templars for each mage', but the premise is still there. The numbers we see don't make sense, and the numbers we can infer also don't make much sense.

 

What they probably needed was a macguffin of some sort, unique to those particular groups. Say an artifact that was in the hands of the mages, or the Templar lyrium stockpiles in Therinfal (too much for the Inquisition to get elsewhere or buy).

[Dean_the_Young]

Well, I don't advertise in social situations.  People can start acting awkward when they find out you are Stormtrooper royalty.  I only hope that, in the aftermath of this bombshell, we can still be friends.

 

Still be?

 

Wouldn't that require-

 

I mean, yes, of course!

[WildOrchid]

Really?

 

It refers to the position as much as anything. I used to be the geek on a debate team, and they'd joke I should be Dean of a College when I got older. I was like, why wait?

 

I thought Dean was a name.

[Ryzaki]

I thought Dean was a name.

 

Same.

 

Now I'm not sure if Dean's female, trolling or worse both.

 

Goddamnit Dean.

[Hellion Rex]

Effing Dean, lol.

[TK514]

Same.

 

Now I'm not sure if Dean's female, trolling or worse both.

 

Goddamnit Dean.

 

I'll certainly never tell.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

Its Dean. I take what Dean says with a grain of salt.

[Ieldra]

Same.

 

Now I'm not sure if Dean's female, trolling or worse both.

 

Goddamnit Dean.

Does it matter?

[Ryzaki]

Does it matter?

 

My curiosity says yes. I must know the truth!

[Sifr]

The mages at Redcliffe aren't- can't- be all that much, considering what we see and know. The Mage Rebellion at the end is a shattered husk of what it was: a number of the Circles were outright annulled, significant numbers of mages were either loyalists/fled/died in the schism, the Mages lost the war and all their other strongholds outside of Redcliffe when the war was militarily lost, a good number of the powerful leaders were lost in the explosion that caused the breach, and of the mages still left in Redcliffe an unclear but significant number are the weak, injured, or children.

 

The only Circle of Magi to be confirmed to have been anulled was Dairsmuid, we have no evidence that the others were annnulled at all. I suppose one could consider them de facto annulled since the majority of mages up and left, but that doesn't mean it was a mass purge.

 

We do know that there were violent confrontations when the Circle rose up, but we also hear of others that apparently fell rather peacefully. There is even mention of some loyalists who remained with the Templars in the Circles, even after the other mages decided to leave.

 

The only military stronghold we know that the mages held was Andoral's Reach at the start of the war, which they eventually lost. We don't know of any other bastions or bases they operated from, nor their overall military strength and how unified their actual engagements against the Templars were.

 

While I agree with your overall point that the mages were losing the war, something that Fiona herself even admits in Redcliffe, we don't know much of how the war itself actually played out prior them having to seek refuge in Redcliffe.

[Steelcan]

While I agree with your overall point that the mages were losing the war, something that Fiona herself even admits in Redcliffe, we don't know much of how the war itself actually played out prior them having to seek refuge in Redcliffe.

that's really all we need to know though.

[Dean_the_Young]

I thought Dean was a name.

 

 

Same.

 

Now I'm not sure if Dean's female, trolling or worse both.

 

Goddamnit Dean.

 

Now you're not sure?

 

Like, you thought you knew before?

 

Does it matter?

 

 

 

My curiosity says yes. I must know the truth!

 

Ryzaki, Ryzaki, Ryzaki.

 

The truth is, there are no girls on the internet.

[TK514]

 

Ryzaki, Ryzaki, Ryzaki.

 

The truth is, there are no girls on the internet.

 

Except for Dean.

 

Maybe.

[Ryzaki]

Now you're not sure?

 

Like, you thought you knew before?

 

Ryzaki, Ryzaki, Ryzaki.

 

The truth is, there are no girls on the internet.

 

I was guessing that you were male yes.

 

Wait...but...does that mean I'm not on the internet???

[Sifr]

that's really all we need to know though.

 

Yeah, but Dean's post talked about their military strength, assets and losses, none of which we can verify or source.

 

Dean was suggesting that the Templars annihilating them at every turn and their failure to put up any real fight is why they suffered a curb-stomp-battle, when we have no evidence that this was the case. That is not to say they they didn't suffer a curb-stomp-battle, or even for those reasons, but in the words of wikipedia, "citation needed".

 

All we can say for sure is that they were losing prior to Inquisition and the Conclave being called.

 

(Not that I'm opposed to speculation, but it at least needs some sources you can build a good case on first)

[Dean_the_Young]

Except for Dean.

 

Maybe.

 

Maybe.

I was guessing that you were male yes.

 

Wait...but...does that mean I'm not on the internet???

Maybe not.

[Steelcan]

Yeah, but Dean's post talked about their military strength, assets and losses, none of which we can verify or source.

 

Dean was suggesting that the Templars annihilating them at every turn and their failure to put up any real fight is why they suffered a curb-stomp-battle, when we have no evidence that this was the case. That is not to say they they didn't suffer a curb-stomp-battle, or even for those reasons, but in the words of wikipedia, "citation needed".

 

All we can say for sure is that they were losing prior to Inquisition and the Conclave being called.

 

(Not that I'm opposed to speculation, but it at least needs some sources you can build a good case on first)

I think Dean does make a good case for what likely happened.  I doubt there were any large scale climatic battles given the mages being outnumbered, on the run, and not trained.

 

The only thing she(?) doesn't really talk about is the mages extensive use of mercenaries.  Many of the enemies we fight in the HInterlands on the mage side are actually sellswords, and if a small splinter group can afford to hire them out, likely using loot gained in battle/looting, I imagine the mag rebellion proper, at least at first would have had the cash to bankroll a sizable mercenary force.

[Dean_the_Young]

Yeah, but Dean's post talked about their military strength, assets and losses, none of which we can verify or source.

 

Dean was suggesting that the Templars annihilating them at every turn and their failure to put up any real fight is why they suffered a curb-stomp-battle, when we have no evidence that this was the case. That is not to say they they didn't suffer a curb-stomp-battle, or even for those reasons, but in the words of wikipedia, "citation needed".

 

All we can say for sure is that they were losing prior to Inquisition and the Conclave being called.

 

Not quite- the suggestion isn't that the Templars were anihalating them at every turn in a curb-stomp-battle, but rather that the remaining mages at Redcliffe are going to be a greatly diminished number from what the Mage Rebellion and Circle system was. It's a subset of a subset of a subset- to the point that it stretches disbelief that we can't find their number elsewhere.

 

The mages in Redcliffe aren't even a huge population group themselves- not implied to be the majority of the mages, not implied to even be the majority of the mages that rebelled. They're the majority of the rebel mages that have survived and stayed in the field- and most of them are irrelevant to closing the Breach. We're not looking at 'equivalent to the Ruling Class of Tevinter', or 'all the Sare'bas.'

[Sifr]

I think Dean does make a good case for what likely happened.  I doubt there were any large scale climatic battles given the mages being outnumbered, on the run, and not trained.

 

The only thing she(?) doesn't really talk about is the mages extensive use of mercenaries.  Many of the enemies we fight in the HInterlands on the mage side are actually sellswords, and if a small splinter group can afford to hire them out, likely using loot gained in battle/looting, I imagine the mag rebellion proper, at least at first would have had the cash to bankroll a sizable mercenary force.

 

The mages using mercs as bodyguards actually is a rather sensible move, since they'd be totally unaffected by the Templars.

 

Vivienne also mentions how some Circles were plundered for treasures, which could have been done by mages as well as bandits, taking whatever wasn't nailed down and pawning it for coin to pay for hired muscle. Those mages would probably have been screwed if the mercs decided to leave when the coin ran out, abandoned them to the Templars when the danger got too rich for their blood, or simply took the gold and ran.

[Sifr]

Not quite- the suggestion isn't that the Templars were anihalating them at every turn in a curb-stomp-battle, but rather that the remaining mages at Redcliffe are going to be a greatly diminished number from what the Mage Rebellion and Circle system was. It's a subset of a subset of a subset- to the point that it stretches disbelief that we can't find their number elsewhere.

 

The mages in Redcliffe aren't even a huge population group themselves- not implied to be the majority of the mages, not implied to even be the majority of the mages that rebelled. They're the majority of the rebel mages that have survived and stayed in the field- and most of them are irrelevant to closing the Breach. We're not looking at 'equivalent to the Ruling Class of Tevinter', or 'all the Sare'bas.'

 

Ah, I get what you mean.

 

Yeah, it always seemed extremely dubious that this wasn't just one cell of the rebellion and there existed others elsewhere in Thedas... or how Vivienne apparently leads a complete bunch of utterly invisible loyalists that we never once see any sign of, nor indication of where they happen to be?

 

They really screwed the pooch when it came to resolving this story arc, it needed far more explanation than was given.

 

(Apologies for the double-post, meant to fit this into the previous one)

[Steelcan]

The mages using mercs as bodyguards actually is a rather sensible move, since they'd be totally unaffected by the Templars.

 

Vivienne also mentions how some Circles were plundered for treasures, which could have been done by mages as well as bandits, taking whatever wasn't nailed down and pawning it for coin to pay for hired muscle. Those mages would probably have been screwed if the mercs decided to leave when the coin ran out, abandoned them to the Templars when the danger got too rich for their blood, or simply took the gold and ran.

unaffected by their abilities, but totally outclassed in terms of combat ability, unless the mages were hiring full on armies.

 

Well their options weren't fantastic in general.  Buying mercenaries to level the numbers is a sensible move though.  It might have been interesting for Bull and his men to have been hired at one point by the mage rebellion or something, but alas.

[Aimi]

Well their options weren't fantastic in general.  Buying mercenaries to level the numbers is a sensible move though.  It might have been interesting for Bull and his men to have been hired at one point by the mage rebellion or something, but alas.

Probably couldn't afford them. Bull and his guys seemed like a relatively high-class outfit, only working for cash or reliable credit. I doubt most rebel mages had either in abundance.