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[Dean_the_Young]

Ah, I get what you mean.

 

Yeah, it always seemed extremely dubious that this wasn't just one cell of the rebellion and there existed others elsewhere in Thedas... or how Vivienne apparently leads a complete bunch of utterly invisible loyalists that we never once see any sign of, nor indication of where they happen to be?

 

They really screwed the pooch when it came to resolving this story arc, it needed far more explanation than was given.

 

(Apologies for the double-post, meant to fit this into the previous one)

That's the set-up of the arc more than the resolution.

 

Resolve-wise, it's clear they were always intending to move away from 'should there be a circle system, mage vs. templars', to the question of 'if there's some sort of circle system, how are the mages split on it?' That required a bit of forcing on Vivienne's part- her decision to allow the College if Divine makes less sense that Leliana having to tolerate Vivienne restarting the Circle by the mages themselves- but even in the base game all the Divines had an intent of conducting reforms that reigned in the Templars and would correct a number of the causus belli.

 

If there's any hanging threads, it's on the Templar sides: for some reason Bioware went heavy on the lyrium addiction route, and not much on the actual merits of lyrium itself, and the functional role of the Templars remains to be filled. But for the mages? It's clear the plot has evolved into 'what would you actually do if you had the choice.'
 

[Steelcan]

Probably couldn't afford them. Bull and his guys seemed like a relatively high-class outfit, only working for cash or reliable credit. I doubt most rebel mages had either in abundance.

the Circles had been very rich institutions before they rebelled, there was even a faction devoted to making money and buying influence.  Throw in a healthy dose of selling artifacts and its not wholly implausible that they could hire lower tier mercenaries.  Maybe not any groups as strong as the Bull's Chargers but I bet there's enough desperate poor people with weapons to round out some numbers.

[Aimi]

the Circles had been very rich institutions before they rebelled, there was even a faction devoted to making money and buying influence.  Throw in a healthy dose of selling artifacts and its not wholly implausible that they could hire lower tier mercenaries.  Maybe not any groups as strong as the Bull's Chargers but I bet there's enough desperate poor people with weapons to round out some numbers.

"Rich" doesn't matter. To have good credit at this point, the mages would have had to have a major enduring revenue source. They didn't control productive territory or tax or own mines or control lucrative trade. They'd have a lump sum from the Lucrosians, assuming any backed them (and who knows), and basically no prospect for anything more.

I mean, you look at Bull's stories, and most of them are about "some lord" hiring them to do stuff - i.e. somebody who had expectation of consistent revenue from productive lands, and therefore ability to secure reliable credit.

With what the mage rebels had, they were probably mostly just going to get thugs who'll fight for expectation of plunder rather than a halfway decent organization. The real units would've had bigger fish to fry.

[Steelcan]

"Rich" doesn't matter. To have good credit at this point, the mages would have had to have a major enduring revenue source. They didn't control productive territory or tax or own mines or control lucrative trade. They'd have a lump sum from the Lucrosians, assuming any backed them (and who knows), and basically no prospect for anything more.

I mean, you look at Bull's stories, and most of them are about "some lord" hiring them to do stuff - i.e. somebody who had expectation of consistent revenue from productive lands, and therefore ability to secure reliable credit.

At that point, you're mostly just going to get thugs who'll fight for expectation of plunder rather than a halfway decent organization. The real units have bigger fish to fry.

Paying mercenaries up front in cash isn't an unheard of situation either.  This maybe means they get the lower rungs of the mercenary world, but that's what they are going to have to deal with.

 

We know they have the mercs, and we know they likely have a sizable amount of money, at least at the start of the conflict.

[Sifr]

Paying mercenaries up front in cash isn't an unheard of situation either.  This maybe means they get the lower rungs of the mercenary world, but that's what they are going to have to deal with.

 

We know they have the mercs, and we know they likely have a sizable amount of money, at least at the start of the conflict.

 

Plus as video game protagonists can always tell you, there's always cash to be made if you're willing to strip corpses. Keeping the mercs happy by giving them the lion's share of any loot they find when it gets divvied up probably would go a long way to keeping any rebel mage with a reliable bodyguard.

[Lumix19]

"Rich" doesn't matter. To have good credit at this point, the mages would have had to have a major enduring revenue source. They didn't control productive territory or tax or own mines or control lucrative trade. They'd have a lump sum from the Lucrosians, assuming any backed them (and who knows), and basically no prospect for anything more.

I mean, you look at Bull's stories, and most of them are about "some lord" hiring them to do stuff - i.e. somebody who had expectation of consistent revenue from productive lands, and therefore ability to secure reliable credit.

With what the mage rebels had, they were probably mostly just going to get thugs who'll fight for expectation of plunder rather than a halfway decent organization. The real units would've had bigger fish to fry.

I'm sure the Formari fit in here somewhere, they were a major source of revenue. Though I imagine that wasn't sustained since they seemed to have abandoned the Tranquil and you probably don't have time to sell potions when you're fighting a war.

[Dean_the_Young]

Plus as video game protagonists can always tell you, there's always cash to be made if you're willing to strip corpses. Keeping the mercs happy by giving them the lion's share of any loot they find when it gets divvied up probably would go a long way to keeping any rebel mage with a reliable bodyguard.

 

Aside from the nature of game mechanics, I think what Aimi will mention is the sort of quality you're looking at. Mercenaries who will take the pay in the loot from people they kill are going to basically be bandits- and hardly reliable ones at that. If your solution is that they should loot the countryside... then they could do that without you being their boss.

 

 

Mind you, I'm not exactly opposed to the mages resorting to banditry- or at least, not surprised- but we're talking quality here, right?

 

Mercenaries on contract, especially good ones, will need to be paid whether there is or is not fighting. That's going to require a sustained amount of money- credit, sustained revenue sources- or else the mercenaries won't stick around.

[Aimi]

Paying mercenaries up front in cash isn't an unheard of situation either.  This maybe means they get the lower rungs of the mercenary world, but that's what they are going to have to deal with.
 
We know they have the mercs, and we know they likely have a sizable amount of money, at least at the start of the conflict.

 
Which is why I specifically said that they probably wouldn't attract decent outfits, mostly the poorly organized or low-quality thugs that you see in the Hinterlands. I did think that post through, you know.
 

Plus as video game protagonists can always tell you, there's always cash to be made if you're willing to strip corpses. Keeping the mercs happy by giving them the lion's share of any loot they find when it gets divvied up probably would go a long way to keeping any rebel mage with a reliable bodyguard.

 
I also accounted for that: "thugs who'll fight for expectation of plunder".

Like Dean said, plunder is something they could get without having to deal with the mages.

Plunder is also something that brings you into conflict with regular authorities; some of it is expected in any war, but if you're expecting to sustain your fighting forces on it, you'll need to be progressively more and more rapacious, with more and more chance of everybody in the area hating you once the war is over. Once the war is over, people who fight for a living still need jobs, and if everybody hates you, that's not a good omen for your ability to secure further employment. So only desperate fighters, with little to no prospect of employment elsewhere, would resort to that kind of banditry, and that implies low quality that the Chargers aren't known for.

And plunder is also uncertain, especially in this situation. You might get a big score, you might get basically nothing. If, say, we were talking about the semi-ritualized set-piece battles of post-Roman Western Europe, where warlords' armies contained maybe seventy percent of the movable wealth of entire kingdoms so that when they clashed it was the Place to Be for getting loot - if we were talking about that, then yes, plunder would be a viable (maybe the only viable) means of paying your dudes. But we're not talking about that, we're talking about a twilight war of scattered encounters between relatively small groups of impoverished fighters all across a continent, with secular authorities doing their damnedest to limit the fighting and/or stay out of the way. There's not much wealth on display there, and it certainly doesn't suffice as a reason for good soldiers to want to keep fighting for you.
 

I'm sure the Formari fit in here somewhere, they were a major source of revenue. Though I imagine that wasn't sustained since they seemed to have abandoned the Tranquil and you probably don't have time to sell potions when you're fighting a war.

Exactly. Mages in the Circles were very capable of generating lots and lots of cash, of course. But mages outside the Circles in the middle of a war, without easy access to markets or supplies, without the benefit of long-standing agreements with merchants and traders, constantly on the run, needing to use any enchanted items they might be able to make for the war rather than for sale...those mages wouldn't be in anywhere close to the same position.

[Steelcan]

Do you think the mages would be overly picky in their hiring? Honest question, because I can imagine that in the immediate aftermath of the Circles rebelling the rebels would have taken the money in the Circle that they could. Whether it's actually cash they have vaulted, or less obvious forms of wealth is barter goods such as enchanted items of no value on the rum and in battle such as heavy jewelry, tapestries, and so on. We know that Circles do have smuggler networks for a variety of purposes so in the short term that could likely raise enough money to field a poorly equipped mercenary force. This is supported by the in game sellswords being unarmored light infantry.

Though at this point I'm not sure where we disagree on anything.

[Lumix19]

Though at this point I'm not sure where we disagree on anything.

First time for everything.

[Meredydd]

I concur. Desperate people do desperate things.

Besides, I can think of characters I like a lot less than Fiona. Like... Adrian. >_____>

Ah, yes. Adrian    She was mad as hops. Fiona's an angel compared to her. When it was first announced that a character from Asunder would be a companion in Inquisition,  I was very concerned that it would be Adrian. Thank God Almighty that we got Cole instead.